Chrysler Sebring Brake Problems

ClairesClaires Chicago areaMember Posts: 1,222
edited October 2014 in Chrysler
Talk about problems you're having with the Sebring's brakes.


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  • bob364bob364 Member Posts: 1
    Hi.. wonder if anyone else can relate to the problems I've had with my chrysler sebring. The day I purchased my car there was ticking noise in the engine area...I asked what it might be and the dealership a "water pump"...I took it numerous time to the 5 star location I'd had bought from and they told me time and time it was nothing...well at 58,000 miles..IT WAS SOMETHING..It was a bad valve and the oil light came...the oil pressure bottomed out...the local mechan said he has seen this numerous times and chrysler refuses to acknowledge this...he said they new what it was ...and new the engine would have to be removed...the blue book is 4,200...and it will be 3,800 - 4,000 to repair...I'm on the 4th set of breaks ...the mechanic said the sebrings are notorious for needing new brakes occationally....
  • lorilwwlorilww Member Posts: 1
    I bought a used 1998 Sebring Convertible. I have had a problem with very noisy rear brakes. I have owned the car for 2 years now and I have taken it to 5 different mechanics to fix this problem. They clean the brakes and pads and within 3 days the brakes are squeaking and grinding again. This last time the mechancic told me that Sebrings have this problem with their rear brakes. I am ready to buy a 2002 Sebring but I just wanted to know if anyone else is having this same problem with the newer models.
  • bullit03bullit03 Member Posts: 5
    Have similar problem as dianall in message no.-8. There is crunching noise coming from the front end when turning the wheels especially when the brakes are being applied at the same time. Wind whistle at drivers door turns out to be air noise coming from heating unit when in the "recirc" mode only. Brake noise from front at low speeds after stop and go driving. Very late downshift into 1st gear coming up to stops. Have a "groan" from the A/C system when on at low speeds when compressor engages. Expansion valve was replaced, noise left, time went by, noise is back! Dealer is deaf, can't hear it. All else is said to be normal. Drivers door is now adjusted so tight that I have to slam it to get it to shut. I shoulda' bought the used Yugo! The sadness would have been less!
  • rjp298rjp298 Member Posts: 1
    Has anyone experienced diminished braking response when driving in very wet
    weather? I have the LXI with 16" chrome spoke rims, ABS. After driving some
    distance in heavy rain, there's a delay in the "grab" that can be felt when brakes
    are first applied. Scary. Service manager says no TSB's about the subject.
    Anyone else have this problem?
  • traeseatraesea Member Posts: 1
    Okay, it's been about a year since I bought my 1999 Sebring Conv. JX, with 50,550 miles already showing... I have put around 20,000 more on it in this first year (going to The Grand Canyon, Vegas, etc.). I only test drove one, and that's the one I bought. I just fell in love with it, and it was on sale..$12,999.00!! Boy was I blessed that day.. So a year later and I am still in love. I started to worry about my impulsive decision, after I read many review's on-line (mostly negative), but I have only had a problem with the brakes... I am on my third replacement pair...and the second pair squealed badly. My father says it's my own fault, and that I am to hard on them. But I dunno??? Anyway, it still drives like a dream, and looks great (I get complements, and questions regularly). The top is starting to show signs of wear, but that is to be expected. No leaks, although I must admit I live in Southern California, where the rain is scarce. The engine is V6, and frankly I love to fly over hills, and down long stretches of freeway. I get cars trying to race me all the time, and the Mustang, sadly, always wins. I have only had my foot on the floor one time, because I am pretty good at watching my R.P.M.'s. My car cruises at 110m.p.h. with ease, but try to push it past that, and it bottoms out... That's okay, 110m.p.h. is fine with me, and on steep hills, in third gear, I can get it going to 85m.p.h...wheeee!!! No speeding tickets yet...knock on wood. I do think I was lucky the day I brought my Sebring home, but I know that there have got to be other, lucky, Sebring Conv.'s out there... Are you feeling lucky?
  • stoosh95stoosh95 Member Posts: 14
    Cause i'm the proud owner of an '01 Sebring Coupe (with the 5 speed) ... with over 40,000 miles and almost no problems .

    Had an issue with both rear wheel bearings ... the left one was replaced at 25k (under warranty) and the right one just went (cost my ~$300) ... and for some reason, the front rotors have warped twice ... once they cannot be "turned" i will replace with bigger, aftermarket ones.

    But other than those 2 things, the coupe's been great.
  • intrepidspiritintrepidspirit Member Posts: 662
    It was great to see this topic revived. As America's most popular convertible, the Sebring certainly deserves a discussion group!

    I recently helped my son buy a 2000 JXI. I went through the postings in the archived forum and we were able to gain some good information before buying.

    One of the major complaints pre-2001 owners had were the brakes. Although the feel isn't great, I understand they wear fairly well, but I believe there were complaints about squeaking (the rear, I believe). If I understand it correctly, the squeaking isn't metallic sounding -- it is more like brake pad friction. Has anyone found an aftermarket solution to these noisy brakes?
  • badkitty5961badkitty5961 Member Posts: 1
    Ok folks! So I have just read every post on my "Dream Car" that has ever been sent here and now i'm scared. My car is in the shop (Chrysler Imperial 93) and at best is getting "patched up" just long enough to get another car. I've had 3 Chrysler's since 1992 ( 2, 5th Aves and now an Imperial...all VERY DEPENDABLE and I was able to "drive them into the ground"!My first went to 210,000 miles! The second 180,000!) but my "Dream Car" is a 98-99 Cyann Pepper Red with a gold top and gold wheels JXI. If I find such a car I am willing to drive from New England (Boston area) to as far as SC to get it. "Am I CRAZY"? (probably) but in your best oppinion...Is the Sebring "worth" it? They say if you have a "good" experiance you will tell 3 friends (I work 3 jobs and one is in a restaurant). If you have a "bad" will tell 10. Is this what is happening here? I'm not hearing very comforting things? By the number of comments about the front end appears that almost "everyone" has it but that the car is still driveable with little or "no" repairs (and no satisfaction)...just the annoyance of the noise. Rattling doors... seems to be the same. Brake replacement...hmmmmmmmm...most major brake shops have a life time warranty which should save me $$ there... right? Gas in the oil...I only noticed a few comments on that. Electrical problems with dash lights...I think everyone has had that at one point or another (even me, and it was usually a "one" time fix),just annoying.
         So what do you think??? Is it a "money pit" or what??? Again... I'm working 3 jobs (and not because I "like" too!LOL). "Please" help me decide or "talk me out of it"! LOL

    A 42 year old "Spring Chicken" (LOL)

    PS...all your comments have helped me so far, "greatly", as to what to look and ask for if I test drive! THANK YOU!!!
  • vish1vish1 Member Posts: 1
    I bought new 03 Chrysler Sebring this year,After 2000 kms it started giving me crunching grinding sound with excessive pulsation, Initially Dealer did not agree with me finally he changed the rotors and Pulsation issue was no longer there, Now Whenever I stop and press brake or Release brakes it give me crunchy sound and also when i steer and press brakes in my drive way it give me crunchy sound.

    As On date i have 3000 kms on my car and problem is still there, Dealership is saying there is nothing they ca do to reduce or to eliminate this sound.I am very upset over this?What should I do?Customer service says its normal.I have driven many cars never heared this noise.
    I will be greatful if anyone help me in getting this issue resolved.PLEASE DONT BUY SEBRING 2003 ,ITS LOOK GOOD BUT HAVING LOT FO PROBLEMS.
  • dlkdlk Member Posts: 8
    My 2003 Sebring sedan was bought new. Around 4000 miles I noticed a crunching, creaking noise in the front end when turning and applying brakes. It does not happen when brakes are not applied. After several visits to the dealership from which the car was purchased without remedy and then being told "it is inherent to the car - all cars have quirks", I called Chrysler. They sent me to another dealership. They, too, can hear it and cannot fix it. Offered to change the rack but said that Chrylser would not want him to. Other than that, cannot determine the cause of the noise. Both dealerships assured me it is not a safety issue. My concern is 1. wear/tear on whatever is making the noise in the future and 2. resale. I certainly would not buy a used car making that type of noise. I now have 18000 miles on the car. In reading the bulletins here (#102,83,80,29,28,13,8) it seems Chrysler should be looking into this, but so far there is not a recall and not even a TSB specific to this problem. Is your problem resolved?
  • kimberleekayekimberleekaye Member Posts: 3
    I have a 2000 Chrysler Sebring LXi w/ abs brakes.
    I've spent about $500 at Brake Check getting my brakes replaced, cleaned, new hardware, etc. and it is STILL making this screeching (think fingernails on a chalkboard) and a rubbing/scraping noise. It is also making that metal on metal noise while driving (usually at 35 mph with the windows down) and screeches more when I apply the brakes. I was hoping after the hardware was replaced for both rears it would stop but nothing has changed (as B.C. suggested since one side was loose). I only have 40,700 miles and I'm the only owner and driver, bought the car in June 2000 with 87 miles on it.

    Any suggestions if that noise is just going to exist or if something really is wrong with the car. I'm ready to pull my hair out about this.
  • cynder7cynder7 Member Posts: 7
    My car was in the shop [Fitzgeralds Auto Mall where I in fact purchased the car]for brake problems....several times to the extent I wrote BBB regarding same. I was reimbursed however, this situation cropped up since there [btw oil was put in the car Sprint prior to being at the dealership] I am finding a lot of problems with the 2.7 motor-type at google-even class action suits. another site is attempting to have Chrysler extend the warranty. I still have a Powertrain warranty [7years/70]but they are not honoring it per above. I have found on the net several stories very similiar. In fact when I called DOT Transportation saftey commission, I was advised there are so many problems with this engine they should recall it. I am becoming a consumer advocate re: this motor-it is a safety issue as well as economical-the complaints are similiar in nature-low milage; gunked oil-engine fails-dealership/chrysler puts onus on the owner-usually with 36,000 milage used. btw-I finally got an address in Elkridge for the zone manager but I am not feeling very positive.
  • goggagogga Member Posts: 6
    There is a TSB for it - 19-03-98. See my previous posts (90 and 96 i think). The solution is to replace the steering fluid. I've had feedback from several owners with 100% success.

  • cynder7cynder7 Member Posts: 7
    Please note my post under Sebring convertible. If your like me, you have the chrysler 2.7 engine. type Chrysler 2.7 engine at google to see the results. or go to and file a complaint with the 'rest' of us [93] so far and the Dept of Transportation and Safety is quoted as having 400 complaints. We are trying to make Chrysler to a recall on this engine-In my situation [bought new 2002]I did oil changes and had brake problems-I was remiss in doing and oil change after 12/03-Chrysler is not honoring the Powertrain warranty based on this. [although I added oil in the spring] there are rumblings of class action suits and I have written to consumer Affaris, Attorney General and spoke to channel 7 news. There appears to be a defect in the engine which chrysler will not acknowledge-a kinked hose not allowing oil to flow properly. where are you located? just curious-this seems to be a Nationwide problem
  • dlkdlk Member Posts: 8
    Chrysler garage out of courtesy replaced the steering fluid. Kept hoping for quiet, but there seems to be no difference in the noise when braking and turning. Any other suggestions? Mechanics feel it is suspension related, but they can't fix it. Great.
  • dlkdlk Member Posts: 8
    Any Sebring sedan owners have problems with turning and braking crunching noises in the front? How did you fix it? Service hears it....can't fix it.
  • frigatefrigate Member Posts: 4
    We also have brake noise on our 2002 Sebring with approximately 30,000 kms, just like you describe. The dealer has machined the rotors twice now and the problem is still there. I am not particularly happy with this in light that that the rotors life span is now reduced to maybe two more machinings and then they have to be replaced. I'll have another chat with the dealer before the warranty runs out in order to address this annoying noise. Apart from this, have had no other problems, and according to the Lemon-Aid publication here in Canada, the car is rated as above average - not bad for a Domestic product!
  • dlkdlk Member Posts: 8
    I have almost 26K on my car now. Brake noise that started around 4000 miles and, according to 2 dealerships cannot be fixed is still there and maybe worse. Front end seems to hit and ride bumps very hard but am told that nothing is wrong. Like you, I will have the vehicle checked out when the 3 yrs are up - and seriously consider getting out of the car and never buying a Chrysler again. After 3 other good Chryslers (years 89, 93, 98 - two of those a van and one car), these last two (01,03 both Sebring sedans) have been big disappointments. Not satisfied with their product or their service.
  • ninamarieninamarie Member Posts: 2
    I too love my car, I have had a mazda miatia conv. which I also loved. This car is bigger and can carry extra people which I love. Everyone that rides in the back cannot believe how spacious it is. And the trunk is very large for a convt.

    I have been reading some of these posts and it does make you worry at first, but for me I suppose that a car is a machine and you have to expect that they will need maintenance. The sebring is a very reasonably priced car expecially when you compair it to the $50,000 plus you can spend on a luxury or speciality car, which lets face it a convertible is a speciality car... made for us special people. I am a psychotherapist by day, and I know how much the extra sunlight and feeling of freedom driving with the top down can really de-stress and elevate my mood. So I consider it not only my car and my toy, I consider it my 30 minute vacation on my way to and from work.. : ) I love it...

    Nina :)
  • ninamarieninamarie Member Posts: 2
    Hey I too am a "spring chicken" at 41 and I love it... like any other car have it looked at, and expect some maintenance, but I love my convert. it makes me feel happy, calm, young and well like a "spring chicken"

    Get the car.... ;)
  • daleastardaleastar Member Posts: 1
    Since I bought my Sebring, sometimes when I come to a stop and brake, the car jets forward. This has happened at Stops and is very dangerous. When I take it back, they say because they cannot replicate the problem, they cannot fix it.

    Has anyone had this problem? I never heard of not being able to check on a problem through being told what the problem is. This is the second time I have it in and they are saying the same. "We can't replicate the problem, therefore we cannot diagnose and fix it." Is that true?
  • newconvertnewconvert Member Posts: 1
    I am experiecing something similar with my 2004 Sebring Convertible (GTC). It has just over 3,000 miles so it's pretty new. Twice in the last couple of days I was stopped with my foot on the break (stop sign, in front of my garage door) the car surged forward. The third time it just stalled. I have an appointment with the dealer in a couple of days. I will let you know what they say/check.
  • rp98rp98 Member Posts: 3
    I have a 98 conv. with the same brake noise as everybody seems to complain of. The noise comes from the rear brakes not the front. The problem comes from glazing over of the brake shoes. Have your rear brakes cleaned and sanded and the noise will go away. If it comes back, do the same or have the shoes replaced with good after market parts. The othe thing to consider are the wheel cylinders. If they start leaking (look for moisture on the cylinder itself) they will not retract all the way causing the shoes to stay in contact with the drum and glaze over faster. Hope this helps. It has worked for me.
  • sidoniesidonie Member Posts: 1
    I recently changed the brake pads and turned the rotors on my Sebring and now the braking is almost zero. Help! Is there something that I missed, never had this problem when changing brake pads/rotors on other cars. If anyone has experienced this please let me know how you fixed it! Thanks
  • ClairesClaires Chicago areaMember Posts: 1,222
    sidonie, you might also want to post your question in the Stop Here! Let's talk about brakes discussion.


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  • jforzettijforzetti Member Posts: 1
    hi i have a problem with my brake lights they dont come on. Now as far as i know i did check the fuses in the fuse panel in the engine compartment. Does any one know of any other possibilitys? I have also checked all the bulbs to!! please help!!!
  • mykeemykee Member Posts: 1
    I had the exact same problem with my car. As it turns out the brake light switch was bad. When it failed the cruise control also quit working. The switch is cheap and easy to replace.
    Hope this helps.
  • bmatz67bmatz67 Member Posts: 2
    IN reference to your rotor problem?? What brand pads are you using?? also are you using ceramic or semi metallic pads. ?? Some ceramic brake pads...Raybestoes in particular will warp rotors by forcing the heat generated by braking, back into the rotor.
  • bmatz67bmatz67 Member Posts: 2
    Try using a Bendix ceramic pad. Go to and look for a dealer in your area. Bendix is used in service shops but not sold in too many parts stores. They are made by Honeywell friction and are used as an original equipment on BMW , Mercedes, and many passenger air planes.
  • siebring70siebring70 Member Posts: 1
    My wife and my daughter both own 2004 Sebring Convertible (Touring) and are both having the same problem you describe. Was the dealership able to correct your problem? Thanks ...Joel
  • kvetchingeditokvetchingedito Member Posts: 1
    I purchased this car in late March, and it had only had one owner -- a late-middle aged couple. There was about 62,000 miles on it and I bought the extended warranty and will probably be paying it off for ages. I did buy it from a dealership, though.

    During the initial checkup for the used-car inspection, they failed to fix the clicking in the steering wheel. It was something I'd asked about upon purchasing the car. Turns out it is listed in things that "should be repaired but don't have to be repaired" -- I can't think of what the list is called. But the dealership is paying for it. A month after I bought the car, the A/C went out and would only work on high. I was furious, so the dealership paid for that too. Then my check engine light came on last month and, luckily, it was just an emissions fix, and it's covered.

    But now, my brake light is dinging off and on all the time. Mostly when I turn right. Any clue why?

    Most importantly though -- when I'm sitting idle at a stoplight or something and the A/C is running, there's this rumbling underneath the car. It sounds like it's coming from the front, but unfortunately it's not the kind of thing I can tell the dealership to fix becuase frankly ... it happens maybe once, twice a week and is completely random.

    Does anyone else have this problem ...? :confuse:
  • viper6277viper6277 Member Posts: 2
    I had this problem, easy one.... but nonethe less a stupid problem to have.... you need brake fluid...
  • dlkdlk Member Posts: 8
    Wondering if any of you that responded to #80 still have your Sebrings....and do they still make the same crunching, grinding noises in the front end when braking and turning? What was the remedy? Any other problems caused by the definitely present but nonrepairable problem (even though my dealer keeps telling me it's normal for the car). Tried the steering fluid replacement suggestion; did not work. Mine now has 33,700 miles and am debating whether to keep it or move on since the 3 yr./36000 is about up. Suggestions - other than if I keep it, get an extended warranty?
  • oldengineeroldengineer Member Posts: 22
    My 05 Sebring started doing that about a month ago at 13K miles. The dealer discovered that my front shock towers are loose and need re-riveted. He got the new rivets in, but, so far, can't get the special tool needed from Chrysler to install them. Will post again if the dealer actually manages to fix the thing.

  • dlkdlk Member Posts: 8
    The dealer replaced the struts on both rt & lt front. New stabilizer links, control arms, extra lube..Didn't make a difference. 35000 miles...getting concerned because the 3 yr/36000 is close. Got a price from the dealer on extended warranty. They only recommend a Chrysler warranty because so many others have gone belly-up and they have been "stuck" (now they know how I feel). I could use the money they want for a warranty to put a downpayment on another car......
  • jjoyner26jjoyner26 Member Posts: 1
    I purchased a used 2002 Chrysler Sebring Lxi model about three months ago. It now has about 70,000 miles on it. I have not had any major problems (yet), but I have noticed that there was a grinding noise coming from my right tire while turning to the left. I had new brakes installed this weekend and the noise is no longer there. My question is was the noise coming from the brakes or is this something that I should still get checked out anyway? Also when I drive over a speed bump and the back end goes over it, there is a squeaking noise coming from the rear end of my car (sounds like the shocks may be bad - not sure). Also if one person sits in the back of my car (not heavy) it sits really low to the ground. The car already sits low anyway, but just wondering if that is something that I should get looked at. After getting new brakes installed, they are now making a grinding noise - will take car back to dealership to see what the problem is with that.
  • phillyrubephillyrube Member Posts: 5
    OK, another problem...was on a trip yesterday and the R/F caliper froze up, dragging the brakes. Limped into a local brake joint, where they found the caliper piston frozen. Seems they come stock with a composite piston. Replacements have a metal piston that takes care of the problem. Trouble is, i was in Charlotte, NC and no one in 50 miles had the caliper. Rather than camp out all weekend, which I cannot do, the brake place lent me a hose clamp to stop hydraulic pressure to the piston, and did not charge me a cent. (Value Brakes if you ever get there). Limped the car home 300 miles with 3 wheel braking, but no problems. Tried to get a new caliper and the same problem exists in my area, no one has it, and it takes 2 days to get one. Anybody else experience this? Car has 114,000 miles so figure it's normal wear n tear.
  • gwestfallgwestfall Member Posts: 1
    I have owned a 1997 Sebring for three years. Up to now, I've had no real complaints. However, several weeks ago my Sebring started squeaking during turns. This problem has gotten worse recently, progressing to a high-pitched whining that seems to come from the tires/axles at all times - although it generally doesn't start until the car has been running for a few minutes and seems to start when the car turns. The squeaking goes away when the brakes are applied, but immediately resumes when I take my foot off of the brakes.

    Adding/changing power steering fluid has been suggested to me. I'm not sure what fluid to use, though. :sick:
  • hotleo64hotleo64 Member Posts: 1
    I own a 1999 Sebring LSI and this past weekend I've starting experiencing the same squeaking noises that seems to becoming from the steering wheel whenever I make a turn. I took my car in yesterday to have it inspected and they were unable to determine where the squeaking was coming from. At first they thought it was within the supension system or the tires but after further investigation that could not find anything wrong. They decide to lubricate the struts, ball joints and when I picked the car up yesterday evening the noise was gone. I went to start my car this morning and the same problem is back. I see in your article that it was suggested that you change/add power steering fluid. Has it worked? Please advise.
  • ingrammcingrammc Member Posts: 6
    have Checked your Brakes?
  • vdeleonevdeleone Member Posts: 2
    i have a 2000 sebring convertible. when i get to exactly 50 mph i get a sound like when a brake drum is being resurfaced. when i slow down it goes away. it doesn't do this all the time . when i go to the dealer natually it doesn't do it. the brakes are fine and i see no scourching
    any ideas
  • antoniog01antoniog01 Member Posts: 2
    Did you evet get a fix or answer to the problem. Have you replace the brake pads recently or when you last replaced them did you get the ones that have a procelan (hope I spelled that correctly) material? I replaced my wifes brakes and just a couple of months later they began to screech every time we applied the brakes. I tried using brake parts cleaner, reseating the brake pads and not until I was replacing the brakes on my Ford, that I over heard the guy at my local autoZone tell a customer who like me was going to buy the cheaper priced pads, "Any other pads will start to squeek after just a few weeks, if they are not the ones made with procelan".
    this may help.
  • vdeleonevdeleone Member Posts: 2
    i also have a 2000 sebring and have a similar noise when i reach 50 mph but goes away when i slow down. it will go away but as i'm driving around 50 it comes back. i've look at all the brakes and see no scourching. the dealer says it's brake dust. this thing is also driving me crazy. when i take it to the dealer it doesn't do it. i notice it's mainly in the spring and fall.
  • dlkdlk Member Posts: 8
    The dealership service dept. assures me the brakes are fine and feels that the issue is suspension/steering related that only occurs when braking and turning. I now have 37,500 miles. Sound is no worse, and no better after many attempts on their part to repair. I have additional postings you can review.
  • chalksterchalkster Member Posts: 1

    Sorry to ask this as im sure its been asked before!I did a quick search but couldnt find the answer.

    I have a 99 JXI con with 81k on it.

    Ive had new rotors and pads up front and the rear drums checked and adjusted. The brakes just seem no good, Ive herd the rumers that there is a brake problem. What is it and what can be done?

    Thank you so much for your help.
  • elboneedhelpelboneedhelp Member Posts: 1
    Does anyone have the same problem as me, have 2000 sebring coupe,
    i get vibrations throughtout the whole car. i have replace the tire and wheels and rotors
    and brakes still the same problems. cant get the vibrations to stop. anyone have a clue to stop this madness. vibration is really bad-steering wheel :confuse:
  • mheuplemheuple Member Posts: 1
    I have the same problem. 2001 Convertible Limited first 50k not one problem. Recently got new tires, brakes and have had vibrations etc. Going on 6 times to 2 different places to fix and no solution yet. Also now have grating sound in front left brake after it heats up. I am in need of the same help.
  • ashleebabieashleebabie Member Posts: 1
    I have a 2002 Chrysler and when I first bought it in 2003 it was smooth sailing but after a few months I get the vibrations too! It's really scary and annoying! :(:(:(
  • eisojeisoj Member Posts: 3
    I have a 2000 Jxi Limited that has been doing the same thing for the past few months. At first, I thought it was the new tires I put on a while back, because the sound at first sounded like it was sort of a rubber squeak. Had my tire dealer and my mechanic check it. Nope, not the tires. Still have the squeak. Any suggestions would be most appreciated!
  • imp60imp60 Member Posts: 1
    I have a 2000 Sebring Convertible. The vibration at 50 mph was terrible. We changed rotors cv joints and balanced the tires. Nothing helped. We changed the tires even though they were new and now until you reach 30 mph it feels as if you are running over a wash board.. I am wondering if the struts would help???
    Anyone have any suggestions???
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