So as more oem's bring out diesel options, the more even comparisons would be a Honda Civic, TDI vs gasser vs hybrid. Just as a more even comparison would be between the above VW Jetta TDI, 1.8T and 2.0 (normally aspirated)
I run the Civic and TDI side by side, so you can ask what you will. Actually for me, I did this for a 12,564 Honda vs 18,000 TDI vs 18,000 2.0/1.8T. Essentially it is BE with the 1.8T from the start. Against the 2.0 at the time, if I remember correctly, it was 30,000 miles. The Honda Civic basically it is at 250,000 miles. Above that, the savings in favor of the TDI are literally overwhelming. Almost all the wear able items on the Honda wear a min of 2x faster than the VW Jetta. Rust on the Honda is almost instantaneous if you do not catch those little inevitable chips. The quality of the VW is far better than the Honda. Since I have more miles on the Jetta, it remains to be seen if the Honda is as durable and reliable. Obviously this would be reversed, if I had more miles on the Honda. But at same same miles: 39,000 miles BOTH vehicles have literally been FLAWLESS. However the truth is how much increased quality do you need for a commute car? Thus the side by side scenario.
Since I do a lot of road trips (26,000 per year), given the choice between the Jetta and the Civic, I will chose the Jetta 10/10. I did take the Honda once for a longer distance trip and it performed like a trooper. Howeve the whole time, I wished I was driving the Jetta.
Sorry for another post same subject, but got locked out when addressing the CNG portion.
So as more oem's bring out diesel options, the more even comparisons would be a Honda Civic, TDI vs gasser vs CNG vs hybrid. Just as a more even comparison would be between the above VW Jetta TDI, 1.8T and 2.0 (normally aspirated)
As for CNG options, I actually like the CNG concept. CNG is considered an alternative fuel, so any appreciable population % should in theory dilute the population of gassers. CNG Civics are something like 1000 producted. Some totally custom cars have inventories greatter than this. It goes without saying this is even less than diesel or even hybrid for that matter. The real nexus: where can you fuel with CNG? And you have to fuel a min of 3x MORE than diesel. Over 500,000 miles that is 2222 to 833. stops. When you compare the time it takes to off load CNG vs gasser or diesel you are spending WAY too much time passing gas. It would be way cool to fuel at home, but you have to spend thousands of dollars to adapt it to your house and really, would you want to take a chance in blowing up your house? I can fuel literally EVERYWHERE/anywhere with diesel and fuel way less times.
I used to be responsible for a good many CNG forklifts, so I am not one who is poly anna about the safety issue.
Thanks for that excellent "spread sheet"; it has changed the way I view the diesel and its immediate and mid term future, as well as my buying plans. Even if the only advantage left to me is to use bio-diesel to lighten the environmental load, I might be better off contributing the money saved with a gas engine to my favorite watch dog group, or buy solar panels for my home.
I would be one of the first to say that a diesel is NOT for everybody. The numbers and subsequent subjective feelings suggest you need to do app 22,000-25,000 miles a year for a diesel to make sense.
"The Honda Civic basically it is at 250,000 miles."
Do you think that having a car that can go 250K is relevant to many people?
"Almost all the wear able items on the Honda wear a min of 2x faster than the VW Jetta."
I would agree that the diesel engine will last longer than a gasser. However, the Consumer Reports 2006 New Car preview shows that the "Jetta" has some real issues. The Civic on the other hand has a good reliability record except for some exhaust issues back around 1998 - 2000. So while the diesel option is interesting, when it finally gets here again, I will likely avoid a VW because of the reliability issues.
"Rust on the Honda is almost instantaneous if you do not catch those little inevitable chips."
Rust happens Actually, the CR data shows that paint/trim is an issue with the Jetta not the Honda.
"The quality of the VW is far better than the Honda."
Not according to the thousands of people that submit surveys to CR.
I do think diesels sales will gather some steam in a few years. The higher fuel cost issue needs to be resolved, however. People look at the signs. Not that many break out their calculators and do a cost per mile calculation.
Diesel has a problem in that it is also used as a fuel oil for heating buildings and by industry. Prices can soar if you have a cold winter.
The new MPG stickers in 2008 will be interesting. Everyone will get to recalculate their cost per mile. I suspect that diesels will do OK as compared to gas or hybrids, but we will just need to wait and see.
This is somewhat relevant to this topic: "ADM’s planned 85 million gallon per year biodiesel facility in Velva, North Dakota will use canola as its primary feedstock – and most of it is likely to come from Canada. According to company reports, the plant will require canola production from 1 million acres. U.S. canola growers are expected to seed about 923,000 acres in 2006." http://www.canola-council.org/ccc_canola_ink_may0506.html
Also think CNG is an option but with some reservations. My old neighbour bought a Grand Cherokee 4.7 V8 because "It's safer for the family and we need lots of space etc". Very swiftly found out that fuel costs, (at UK gas prices), were crippling. So, had it converted to LNG, (CNG), which is about 50% cheaper than gas. BUT - he then lost a huge amount of load space to the LNG tank, thereby almost eliminating one of his "reasons" for buying the car in the first place. Would a Civic or a Jetta with a big CNG tank in the boot, (sorry, trunk), be an attractive proposition? Not to me, but that's just me.
Also, at least in UK, LNG is lightly taxed and the fear is that if it gains real market share then the government will just tax it to the same level as liquid fuels.
As for Honda quality vs VW quality then the local view is, probably, that Honda has the edge...............but that is perhaps as much the result of a carefully orchestrated marketing campaign as it is about reality. Audi is the "Quality" marque within VAG in Europe and VW is the "sensible/budget" choice. Skoda, (which I love), and SEAT are for cheapskates who don't care about badges. As they all use the same components it's a bit pointless but UK market is still very class conscious. When people find out my little Skoda has the same TDi and 6-spd as their Audi A4 or A6 they do, often, look a litle, er - surprised. Such is life.
Off to Arizona for vacation soon. Have hired a big SUV as USA gas prices are stupidly low, (to me), and where can you hire a good diesel anyway ?
ruking1 : hope you didn't take offence at the % post. None intended. Whatever your past training is, it's serving you well.
I would swag your post is really a good reflection of some of the mainstream concerns and issues. Rather than repeat or make follow up points I would say that would tend to keep folks out of diesel. The Honda's diesel for like for like models would be 500-800 more than the gasser. This would put a like for like B/E at less than 50-60k. My concern would still be rust. I do not have the same concern on the Jetta if they use the same build procedures. I would probably buy a diesel Honda given Honda's price points.
First off, I was not in the least offended by the % discussion. Upshot: I post it so anybody can duplicate it. I actually post the numbers, as there is a usual knee jerk reaction to some of the figures posted of huge exaggerations. So it is a backwards visual pun to post "the exaggeration" a number of say .30 to see .297523875.
As for the local Honda vs VW quality issue it is similar in the USA. But like I said, I live with them side by side. It is as clear to me as a 2x4 between the eyes the quality is far better in the VW. The anomoly is that Honda does reliabilty FAR better with lower quality than VW does reliability with higher quality. If they could duplicate Honda in that regard it would not take VW long to reverse that negative impression. This of course is hardly sound bite able. One example body panels on the VW are galvanized metal. Honda is normal sheet (rustable) steel. Most would say what does that mean in real english? Probably more to the point: Who cares? For example the rust warranty on the VW is 12 years. I bet most Honda owners don't have a clue what it is their Honda's.
The safety issues on fuel might also surface. Ask any emergency worker if they have any concerns if they are going against burning propane/LNG/CNG tanks. Ask them about unleaded regular. Diesel is much safer and farther down on the priority list.
VW is doing something right if there vehicles hold their value better than Honda and Toyota.
VW diesels hold their value even better than regular VW's.
Reported reliability by CR subscribers is lower for VW than for Honda or Toyota and even GM and Ford for that matter, however, I would much rather have a higher resale value than 1 less problem on my vehicle during ownership.
Diesel retained value has been insane recently with used sales prices often higher than new for low mileage 1 to 3 year old TDI's.
The anecdotal evidence I can share is that my VW's have been as reliable as my Toyota's, Honda's and Nissan's that I've owned although the local VW dealer is the absolute worst.
After reviewing your post, a couple of thoughts came to mind: 1. Both VW AND Honda have much higher resale value % that MOST other brands. 2 Both VW and Honda are in rarified company 3 The % of resale value is HIGHER for the VW than the Honda, (#4 vs #7) 4. Honda has done a very good job with lower quality than a lot of brands with MUCH higher quality.
Since you have them side by side also, what is your take about quality?
Yes, I didnt want to wax on too much about the insanely high resale value of my TDI. The good/bad news is I bought it for the (very) long haul (500,000 to 1,250,000 miles) I should have bought two and sold one for MORE than I paid while having the use of it for whatever mileage. Or split the miles and sell them either one at a time or both at a much later date for higher than normal resale values. Oh well.
To be fair on the Honda side, one year and 15,000 or so miles) after the Honda was bought, the price it was selling on the open market was more than I paid for it new. Same thing I bought it for the longer haul 250,000 miles, but obviously shorter than the TDI.
Ahh it says 2007 models they don't make the disco and freelander models anymore. :P
Also I would assume they are talking resale value as a function of private party or dealer retail not trade in value.
In my experience Discos are at about the 50% mark for wholesale value, assuming average miles, after 3.5 to 4 years.
Oh and uuhh on topic...
No word yet on TDV8 Diesels for the US market but I know that the 2008 MY specs are basicly set in stone so maybe 2009 MY will bring diesels to the US market.
It seems like this list assumes several miracles happen. A quick look back at 2000 Civic and Jetta prices indicated 43% retention for the Civic, 34% retention for the Jetta, and 43% retention for the Jetta diesel. I owned VWs for 14 years, liked them, but would never put their reliability or expectations on resale ahead of Honda or Toyota. Just for fun, I looked at a 2000 Land Rover Disco - 24% retention...
My SWAG is a diesel motor on something like a Toyota Landcruiser (aka) Lexus, etc etc would probably cause the resale value to rise even higher than it already is. (going foward, looking back as these types of research do). so for example if these get epa 13/17 now and will get 25-35% BETTER or 17 to 23 mpg! WOW!!
quote- Toyota Motor Corp.'s top engineer said on Monday that diesel-powered vehicles that would clear strict clean-air regulations in the United States would be too pricey to be worth the fuel savings.
"I won't deny that we might be offering a diesel in the United States some time in the future," said Executive Vice President Masatami Takimoto, who overseas Toyota's research and development.
"But right now we think hybrids are much more cost competitive," he told reporters on the sidelines at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.
Domestic Japanese rivals Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. have both said they were preparing a clean diesel powertrain for launch by the end of the decade in the United States, which is due to introduce the strictest diesel emissions regulations in the world soon.
But with the particulate filter traps and other added components needed to clean tailpipe emissions, Takimoto said the likely price premium on the cars would not justify a choice over hybrids for now, at least in the United States.
Toyota, a relative laggard in diesel technology, in November tied up with diesel-savvy Japanese truck maker Isuzu Motors Ltd. in an attempt to catch up, but Takimoto said a roadmap on how to proceed was wide open.-end quote
File this one under "we don't have it, Honda does, so let's make it look bad". How Toyota can claim that refinements to a proven technology are less attractive than the addition of a whole new drive train to a car is amazing!
Yes to me that is probably true. I would say that Toyota really wants to so call pave the way for it to amortize as well as recoup its investment in hybrid technologies ultimate goal: make profits (bigger the better of course) . To me again, the lack of % of the passenger vehicle fleet both in hybrids and diesel and alternative fuels more than highlights underscores and in bold print emphasizes, there is no "fuel" problem. If I didnt get it from running into these billboards, the EPA is downward revising almost ALL the EPA ratings on the crop that will be entering the passenger vehicle fleet.
yeah, i realized what they were saying, but I can't take it seriously. I mean, how in the world do they know where the prices will be in 5 years? Especially in LR's case when the models haven't even been around that long.
Discos at 50% after 3.5-4 years ... but they are saying OVER 50% at 5 years!! I think they are off their rockers, personally. And not just for LR, but for many in that list. If I could get half a any car's original price after 5 years, I'd be jumping for joy. I can tell you right now, though, there's no way in hell I'm getting $14k for my '06 accord in the year 2011 with 70-75k miles on it. My buyout at the end of the 3-year lease is only $15k.
Oh yeah I agree it is kind of screwy in terms of raw numbers but if you take it all as relative it makes more sense.
The MINI has had the highest resale value of any car for the past five years. I don't think it is going to be close to 60% but I might belive some where around 50% private party.
But uhhh yeah diesel good errghh
The TDV8 should is getting about 25 mpg on the european combined cycle so that should be upper 20s EPA highway and lower 20s EPS city.
It sounds like an honest evalutation, which may or may not be accurate, but which does keep the discussion open about which alternate is most likely to come to market. It's interesting that Toyota feels that hybrids are, to them, more cost effective than diesel up to the point of sale. To Toyota the costs must have come down to some 'normal' premium level.
Let's so do a survey base on what we know at the moment.. VW is ( has ) been committed to diesel and will have at least 2 on the market in 2009 MB also will have one or maybe two on the market Honda may have as many as 3 ( Ody, MDX, Accord? ) Jeep may have one or two at a minimum. GM has no announced vehicles at this time Toyota - Ditto Ford - Ditto Nissan - Ditto Hyundai - Ditto Mazda - Ditto Volvo - Ditto
Obviously all the above produce diesels in other markets but it's curious that all except the ones noted have not announced any future diesel models for this market.
I'd have expected more announcements by now. The 2009 MY is nearly on us.
Ford Said the F-150 would have a diesel by 2009-2010 which would make it the first light duty diesel pickup. I would expect their SUVs to get that same diesel engine around that time as well.
I thought I saw something from GM on diesels for their SUVs as well.
Subaru expected to have diesel (boxer ) likely in the Forester.
Ford has indicated the F150 and Expedition will have V6 diesel.
Dodge will have the 1/2 ton Ram and the Durango. (new Cummins diesel)
Jeep the Grand Cherokee and possibly the new Liberty.
Chrysler the 300 for 09 or 10 with V6 diesel.
Honda will have 4 cyl and V6 diesel. Accord 09, Pilot, Ridgeline and possibly Odyssey 09/10 model year.
Mercedes will have a minimum of 5 diesels for 09.
Mitsubishi the Lancer for 09 and possibly Outlander for 10.
GM is rumored to have a 6 cyl. Duramax for the 1500 Silverado.
VW the Jetta, New Beetle, Rabbit, Tiguan, Touareg for 09 with Passat mid to late 09.
Audi is expected to have 3 models with diesel by 10. (4 cyl., 6 cyl. and 12 cylinder)
BMW the 3 series with diesel by 10.
Nissan the Titan with diesel by 10.
Toyota the Tundra (not a light duty, will be 3/4 ton) by 10.
Volvo ? Rumor is that Volvo will bring it's D5 diesel engine in the XC70. Only a rumor at this point.
Mahindra has stated they will enter the US market with both diesels and gasoline SUV's and trucks. (I doubt that Mahindra has the expertise to pull it off)
In addition to the Civic and CRV we already have the Accord in diesel, plus offerings from just about all the others : GM, (Vauxhall/Opel), Ford, (Jag, Saab, Volvo, Land Rover, Ford), Chrysler 300, Jeep Commander, Voyager, Cherokee and Grand Cherokee, Toyota, (most models), plus the usual suspects at VAG; Golf, Jetta, Passat, Phaeton, A3, A4, A6, A8, Q7 and the Skoda and SEAT derivatives, MB and BMW of course, Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, MINI, (1.4TD), Fiat, Suzuki, Hyundai, Lexus, Alfa Romeo, Mazda..............the list goes on. Subaru are conspicuous by their absence which is a shame as their Legacy Estate, (Wagon ?), is a v nice car but has foul economy figures. Some of these must surely come your way over time. Unless, of course, the EU buys up all the diesel first.
"We have done a lot of assessment from a customer perspective, looking at what diesel offers in terms of fuel economy and performance versus cost," said Derrick Kuzak, Ford's product development boss. "At this point in time, we would say that GTDI (gasoline turbocharged direct injection) seems to be the better alternative."
I think this comment goes to show that some car makers (VW,MB,Honda, to name a few) are able and willing to produce diesels, while others (Ford, Toyota) are taking a different path. The reasons are probably many, but I think it shows that we will see quite a horse race in the next few years. It is nice to have options, on the other hand, too many choices will confuse the average consumer. Present company excluded
..."Ford Motor Co. can't make money selling cars with diesel engines in the United States. So it will use diesels only in trucks in North America.
Ford's powertrain plans became clearer at a pre-Detroit auto show event here last month. Mark Fields, Ford's president of the Americas, said the company will not launch a vehicle unless it makes money.
The F-150 pickup will get a new 4.4-liter turbocharged V-8 diesel engine developed by Land Rover. It is expected to debut in the United States by late 2008."...
So the good news bad news is if the F150 gets 19 mph H and diesel will put that at 30% more, that's a FULL SIZED truck that gets 24.7 mpg!!!! The bad news (or good news) depending on how one looks at it is the fleet that doesnt get diesel will get 30% less fuel mileage.
Read the article. Please note that Ford is in one hell of a financial pickle right now and has nearly no cash to play with. So for them to bring diesel powered cars over here is financially impossible for them. They certainly would make money on them but they cannot afford to make them. :sick:
i'll believe all these new diesels will come to USA only when i see them in the showrooms. diesel preannouncements = lies. CARB will find a way to stop most of these, sort of like "double secret probation" from the movie ANIMAL HOUSE. really, i hope i'm wrong!
believe all these new diesels will come to USA only when i see them in the showrooms. diesel preannouncements = lies. CARB will find a way to stop most of these, sort of like "double secret probation" from the movie ANIMAL HOUSE. really, i hope i'm wrong!
Sitting here 3000+ miles away it does look as though your legislators are making it as difficult as possible to bring diesel passenger cars into USA. Not quite worked out who/what is behind that but it has a whiff of old-fashioned protectionism. Any other thoughts ?
There is more to it than legislation and clean air rules. There is the memory of the 1980's and the disastrous fling with diesels back then. There is the image of poor performance and noise to overcome also.
There is no protectionism as you say, mostly ignorance, close mindedness, and the unwillingness to re-evaluate a technology that has been significantly improved since the 1980's.
winter2, All very fair and sound points. Las year we had friends from Texas over here for 4 weeks and they couldn't, (initially), believe that my Skoda was actually a diesel. Literally blew them away. They drive Honda's; Accord and CRV respectively and were more than a bit miffed to find that we Europeans can, and do, buy the same cars with good diesel engines.
Those folk have now been exposed to the reality of modern diesels but millions more haven't and won't be until they start to appear in reasonable numbers. Catch 22 job.
Alltorque, I don't post too often here but I have enjoyed your contributions to the forum. It is very enlightening to get your perspective on diesels, etc.
Just call me Mr. Conspiracy because there is no way that diesels have been kept out of the U.S. like they have by accident. The oil companies planned it that way with the help of the automobile companies. Why? Obviously they both make more profit selling gasoline than they do selling diesel and diesel cars.
Up until the last couple of years, diesel has always been cheaper than reg. gas, but no more. Diesel cars get about 30% better mileage so now diesel costs about 30% more than reg. gas. If they can't keep diesels out they will simply raise the prices so that they have the savings rather than the motoring public.
They have very smart people to explain why diesel costs more now but it is all BS. It is simply greed.
I did read the article and I think the statement by Kuzak "At this point in time, we would say that GTDI (gasoline turbocharged direct injection) seems to be the better alternative." means Ford is going down the gasoline path.
I agree that Ford is having financial difficulties, however I would disagree that it is "impossible" for them to undertake a diesel car. They are making a business decision on what projects are best given their cash flow, engineering expertise and projects in the pipeline. I would also suggest that they are not as strong with their diesels as VW, Honda, Subaru or MB are or will be. The 6.0L Power Stroke® Turbo Diesel 32-valve had some issues when it came out.
I do not think it is protectionism. It relates more to emissions or maybe the kinds of emissions. In the states we have probably been more concerned about sooty particles while folks in Europe worry more about CO2 emissions.
"European emission standards and preferential taxation have forced oil refineries to dramatically reduce the level of sulfur in diesel fuels. In contrast, the United States has long had "dirtier" diesel, although more stringent emission standards have been adopted with the transition to ultra-low sulfur diesel (ULSD) starting in 2006 and becoming mandatory on June 1, 2010 (see also diesel exhaust)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel
So now that we have cleaner diesel we should see an up-tick in diesel sales. Not sure we will reach the 50% diesel sales Europe is seeing. In America people are still going for performance over MPG.
And before some of you diesel fans jump all over me for the performance comment, I think diesels are now about par with gas engines. That was not the case in the past. Many years ago a friend owned a MB diesel (1970s). Zero to sixty took something North of 20 seconds.
The new six speed transmissions seem to help too. The extra gears allow a diesel to stay in the productive power range.
This isn't a Fed Govt/Big Oil/Big Auto conspiracy since it's really only a 5 state issue. The CARB states are the ones putting the kibosh on sales due to very restrictive emmissions standards that are more difficult than the Fed limits. In the other 45 states diesels are certainly able to be sold.
IMO it's more a commercialization issue with all the big automakers. Note that only VW, which is a very small niche importer was the only one to offer a series of diesel autoss. The Big ones GM/F/T/H/N/DC all have to look at the whole market. The states which have the most restrictive limits are also the ones with some of the biggest populations and therefore the biggest markets.
Using Toyota as an example say one of their European diesels was offered for sale in the US. Toyota would have to tell some of their Mega stores in CA, those who are its biggest customers, that 'We are not going to allow you to sell these diesels. We are only going to allow Mom and Pop Toyota in Idaho to sell them. Take a hike Longo.' It creates a 'can-sell/can't-sell' situation amongst the dealers.
Until diesels can be sold in all the states none of the big makers will offer them to just a part of the market.
Please do not forget that the CARB rules about diesel only impact brand new ones. Any diesel powered car/SUV with over 7500 miles on it can be bought and sold in the CARB states and driven there too. Kind of stupid in my view.
If Daimler or VW dealers sold diesel powered cars that had more than 7500 miles on them in the CARB states , they would sell very quickly indeed.
Until diesels can be sold in all the states none of the big makers will offer them to just a part of the market.
That is an untrue statement. VW and Daimler have sold diesels in the 45 state market. Daimler will be selling MY 2007 diesel vehicles in the 45 state market this year.
Not quite a conspiracy as you contend. There is a lot of demand for diesel over in Europe and there is only so much of the fuel on the market.
Still when you think about it, it is still cheaper to run a diesel than a gasser in spite of the extra cost of the fuel. Around here in metro D.C.(Maryland), gas costs about $2.50 per gallon while diesel is about $2.73 per gallon. That is no thirty percent. It is more like eight or nine percent.
Here in Maryland, they are talking about stiffening the emissions rules but I am not sure they are going to be CARB rules. Certainly hope not.
Interesting thing about ULSD availability. While I was working in south Florida, I was able to get ULSD at just about any station that sold diesel fuel, even SAM's Club. I came back to Maryland (metro D.C.)last week and much to my surprise and chagrin I had a horrible time finding ULSD. Finally found a station that carries it a few miles from my house. Now considering how rotten the air is here from the second worst traffic in the country, you would think that ULSD would be far more available here than in Florida. What we have here is common sense at work.
Cute story about your friends. I still get looks and questions about my 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD (Cherokee on your side of the pond). Many cannot believe it is a diesel and it is very quiet at idle and pretty quick on the open road. So far it has turned out to be reasonably reliable considering the diesel fuel here borders on being swill.
There is a lot of demand for diesel over in Europe and there is only so much of the fuel on the market.
So what? All they have to do is make more. With our mild winter, all the tanks are overflowing.
Around here in metro D.C.(Maryland), gas costs about $2.50 per gallon while diesel is about $2.73 per gallon. That is no thirty percent. It is more like eight or nine percent.
In the Kansas City area reg. gas is around $2.05 while diesel is around $2.60 and that is close to 30%.
I assume you are using "gasbuddy" pricing or something similar. That can be very misleading. The Kansas City area is a big place. The prices you posted are on the Missouri side and about 50 miles from where I live, in far western Johnson County on the Kansas side.
Using gasbuddy I find the lowest reg. gas price in the area at $1.85 and the highest diesel price at $2.65. That is an 80 cent difference. Using that scenario diesel is over 40% higher so I don't think my average was far out of line.
WHERE you come from?! When you also factor in the VOLUME and the % passenger vehicle fleet that requires unleaded PREMIUM, the comparisons are even more lopsided. While I do not know the numbers and %, I would SWAG the cars requiring unleaded premium are greater than diesel passenger vehicles at 2.3-2.9%. Indeed some of these cars require premium unleaded for "higher" fuel mileage. Prices are on par between #2 ULSD and unleaded PREMIUM.
So using a MB 320 gasser 28 mpg vs diesel 37 mpg (corner store price of 2.89 ) =.103/.078 per mile= diesel is 24.3% LESS expensive. If you are used to paying .078 cents for diesel and now pay .103 cents for a gasser you are paying 32% MORE.
Just seen that Land Rover, (a Ford company, of course), have introduced the Rang Rover Sport TDV8. This has a 3.6 Ltr twin-turbo V8 diesel. Produces 272bhp but 472lbft @ 2000rpm. 0-60mph is stated at 8.6s, not too bad for such a big lump with the aerodynamics of a house brick and all the toys. A tad pricey at circa GBP59k.
Engine will doubtless appear in other Ford-group products. just thought you'd like to know.....................and that's even more diesel gonna be used in Europe, no doubt.
I agree that both VW and Daimler are large worldwide vehicle makers but by choice both are small forces here in the NA market. Being small they can 'boutique' themselves to the 45 state market. My position is that the mass marketers, GM/F/C/T/H/N, cannot do this.
2008/2009 will be a different story but until now this has been the case.
Comments
I run the Civic and TDI side by side, so you can ask what you will. Actually for me, I did this for a 12,564 Honda vs 18,000 TDI vs 18,000 2.0/1.8T. Essentially it is BE with the 1.8T from the start. Against the 2.0 at the time, if I remember correctly, it was 30,000 miles. The Honda Civic basically it is at 250,000 miles. Above that, the savings in favor of the TDI are literally overwhelming. Almost all the wear able items on the Honda wear a min of 2x faster than the VW Jetta. Rust on the Honda is almost instantaneous if you do not catch those little inevitable chips. The quality of the VW is far better than the Honda. Since I have more miles on the Jetta, it remains to be seen if the Honda is as durable and reliable. Obviously this would be reversed, if I had more miles on the Honda. But at same same miles: 39,000 miles BOTH vehicles have literally been FLAWLESS. However the truth is how much increased quality do you need for a commute car? Thus the side by side scenario.
Since I do a lot of road trips (26,000 per year), given the choice between the Jetta and the Civic, I will chose the Jetta 10/10. I did take the Honda once for a longer distance trip and it performed like a trooper. Howeve the whole time, I wished I was driving the Jetta.
So as more oem's bring out diesel options, the more even comparisons would be a Honda Civic, TDI vs gasser vs CNG vs hybrid. Just as a more even comparison would be between the above VW Jetta TDI, 1.8T and 2.0 (normally aspirated)
As for CNG options, I actually like the CNG concept. CNG is considered an alternative fuel, so any appreciable population % should in theory dilute the population of gassers. CNG Civics are something like 1000 producted. Some totally custom cars have inventories greatter than this. It goes without saying this is even less than diesel or even hybrid for that matter. The real nexus: where can you fuel with CNG? And you have to fuel a min of 3x MORE than diesel. Over 500,000 miles that is 2222 to 833. stops. When you compare the time it takes to off load CNG vs gasser or diesel you are spending WAY too much time passing gas.
I used to be responsible for a good many CNG forklifts, so I am not one who is poly anna about the safety issue.
Do you think that having a car that can go 250K is relevant to many people?
"Almost all the wear able items on the Honda wear a min of 2x faster than the VW Jetta."
I would agree that the diesel engine will last longer than a gasser. However, the Consumer Reports 2006 New Car preview shows that the "Jetta" has some real issues. The Civic on the other hand has a good reliability record except for some exhaust issues back around 1998 - 2000. So while the diesel option is interesting, when it finally gets here again, I will likely avoid a VW because of the reliability issues.
"Rust on the Honda is almost instantaneous if you do not catch those little inevitable chips."
Rust happens
"The quality of the VW is far better than the Honda."
Not according to the thousands of people that submit surveys to CR.
I do think diesels sales will gather some steam in a few years. The higher fuel cost issue needs to be resolved, however. People look at the signs. Not that many break out their calculators and do a cost per mile calculation.
Diesel has a problem in that it is also used as a fuel oil for heating buildings and by industry. Prices can soar if you have a cold winter.
The new MPG stickers in 2008 will be interesting. Everyone will get to recalculate their cost per mile. I suspect that diesels will do OK as compared to gas or hybrids, but we will just need to wait and see.
This is somewhat relevant to this topic: "ADM’s planned 85 million gallon per year biodiesel facility in Velva, North Dakota will use canola as its primary feedstock – and most of it is likely to come from Canada. According to company reports, the plant will require canola production from 1 million acres. U.S. canola growers are expected to seed about 923,000 acres in 2006."
http://www.canola-council.org/ccc_canola_ink_may0506.html
Better stock up on your canola cooking oil now!!
Also, at least in UK, LNG is lightly taxed and the fear is that if it gains real market share then the government will just tax it to the same level as liquid fuels.
As for Honda quality vs VW quality then the local view is, probably, that Honda has the edge...............but that is perhaps as much the result of a carefully orchestrated marketing campaign as it is about reality. Audi is the "Quality" marque within VAG in Europe and VW is the "sensible/budget" choice. Skoda, (which I love), and SEAT are for cheapskates who don't care about badges. As they all use the same components it's a bit pointless but UK market is still very class conscious. When people find out my little Skoda has the same TDi and 6-spd as their Audi A4 or A6 they do, often, look a litle, er - surprised. Such is life.
Off to Arizona for vacation soon. Have hired a big SUV as USA gas prices are stupidly low, (to me), and where can you hire a good diesel anyway ?
ruking1 : hope you didn't take offence at the % post. None intended. Whatever your past training is, it's serving you well.
As for the local Honda vs VW quality issue it is similar in the USA. But like I said, I live with them side by side. It is as clear to me as a 2x4 between the eyes the quality is far better in the VW. The anomoly is that Honda does reliabilty FAR better with lower quality than VW does reliability with higher quality. If they could duplicate Honda in that regard it would not take VW long to reverse that negative impression. This of course is hardly sound bite able. One example body panels on the VW are galvanized metal. Honda is normal sheet (rustable) steel. Most would say what does that mean in real english? Probably more to the point: Who cares? For example the rust warranty on the VW is 12 years. I bet most Honda owners don't have a clue what it is their Honda's.
The safety issues on fuel might also surface. Ask any emergency worker if they have any concerns if they are going against burning propane/LNG/CNG tanks.
Money talks, bullpoo walks.
VW is doing something right if there vehicles hold their value better than Honda and Toyota.
VW diesels hold their value even better than regular VW's.
Reported reliability by CR subscribers is lower for VW than for Honda or Toyota and even GM and Ford for that matter, however, I would much rather have a higher resale value than 1 less problem on my vehicle during ownership.
Diesel retained value has been insane recently with used sales prices often higher than new for low mileage 1 to 3 year old TDI's.
The anecdotal evidence I can share is that my VW's have been as reliable as my Toyota's, Honda's and Nissan's that I've owned although the local VW dealer is the absolute worst.
Yes, I didnt want to wax on too much about the insanely high resale value of my TDI. The good/bad news is I bought it for the (very) long haul (500,000 to 1,250,000 miles) I should have bought two and sold one for MORE than I paid while having the use of it for whatever mileage. Or split the miles and sell them either one at a time or both at a much later date for higher than normal resale values. Oh well.
To be fair on the Honda side, one year and 15,000 or so miles) after the Honda was bought, the price it was selling on the open market was more than I paid for it new. Same thing I bought it for the longer haul 250,000 miles, but obviously shorter than the TDI.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Also I would assume they are talking resale value as a function of private party or dealer retail not trade in value.
In my experience Discos are at about the 50% mark for wholesale value, assuming average miles, after 3.5 to 4 years.
Oh and uuhh on topic...
No word yet on TDV8 Diesels for the US market but I know that the 2008 MY specs are basicly set in stone so maybe 2009 MY will bring diesels to the US market.
Toyota is not a believer in diesels.
quote-
Toyota Motor Corp.'s top engineer said on Monday that diesel-powered vehicles that would clear strict clean-air regulations in the United States would be too pricey to be worth the fuel savings.
"I won't deny that we might be offering a diesel in the United States some time in the future," said Executive Vice President Masatami Takimoto, who overseas Toyota's research and development.
"But right now we think hybrids are much more cost competitive," he told reporters on the sidelines at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.
Domestic Japanese rivals Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. have both said they were preparing a clean diesel powertrain for launch by the end of the decade in the United States, which is due to introduce the strictest diesel emissions regulations in the world soon.
But with the particulate filter traps and other added components needed to clean tailpipe emissions, Takimoto said the likely price premium on the cars would not justify a choice over hybrids for now, at least in the United States.
Toyota, a relative laggard in diesel technology, in November tied up with diesel-savvy Japanese truck maker Isuzu Motors Ltd. in an attempt to catch up, but Takimoto said a roadmap on how to proceed was wide open.-end quote
Discos at 50% after 3.5-4 years ... but they are saying OVER 50% at 5 years!! I think they are off their rockers, personally. And not just for LR, but for many in that list. If I could get half a any car's original price after 5 years, I'd be jumping for joy. I can tell you right now, though, there's no way in hell I'm getting $14k for my '06 accord in the year 2011 with 70-75k miles on it. My buyout at the end of the 3-year lease is only $15k.
oh yeah ... uhhh... topic ... topic .... eh, i got nothin.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The MINI has had the highest resale value of any car for the past five years. I don't think it is going to be close to 60% but I might belive some where around 50% private party.
But uhhh yeah diesel good errghh
The TDV8 should is getting about 25 mpg on the european combined cycle so that should be upper 20s EPA highway and lower 20s EPS city.
Let's so do a survey base on what we know at the moment..
VW is ( has ) been committed to diesel and will have at least 2 on the market in 2009
MB also will have one or maybe two on the market
Honda may have as many as 3 ( Ody, MDX, Accord? )
Jeep may have one or two at a minimum.
GM has no announced vehicles at this time
Toyota - Ditto
Ford - Ditto
Nissan - Ditto
Hyundai - Ditto
Mazda - Ditto
Volvo - Ditto
Obviously all the above produce diesels in other markets but it's curious that all except the ones noted have not announced any future diesel models for this market.
I'd have expected more announcements by now. The 2009 MY is nearly on us.
I thought I saw something from GM on diesels for their SUVs as well.
Ford has indicated the F150 and Expedition will have V6 diesel.
Dodge will have the 1/2 ton Ram and the Durango. (new Cummins diesel)
Jeep the Grand Cherokee and possibly the new Liberty.
Chrysler the 300 for 09 or 10 with V6 diesel.
Honda will have 4 cyl and V6 diesel. Accord 09, Pilot, Ridgeline and possibly Odyssey 09/10 model year.
Mercedes will have a minimum of 5 diesels for 09.
Mitsubishi the Lancer for 09 and possibly Outlander for 10.
GM is rumored to have a 6 cyl. Duramax for the 1500 Silverado.
VW the Jetta, New Beetle, Rabbit, Tiguan, Touareg for 09 with Passat mid to late 09.
Audi is expected to have 3 models with diesel by 10. (4 cyl., 6 cyl. and 12 cylinder)
BMW the 3 series with diesel by 10.
Nissan the Titan with diesel by 10.
Toyota the Tundra (not a light duty, will be 3/4 ton) by 10.
Volvo ? Rumor is that Volvo will bring it's D5 diesel engine in the XC70. Only a rumor at this point.
Mahindra has stated they will enter the US market with both diesels and gasoline SUV's and trucks. (I doubt that Mahindra has the expertise to pull it off)
"We have done a lot of assessment from a customer perspective, looking at what diesel offers in terms of fuel economy and performance versus cost," said Derrick Kuzak, Ford's product development boss. "At this point in time, we would say that GTDI (gasoline turbocharged direct injection) seems to be the better alternative."
I think this comment goes to show that some car makers (VW,MB,Honda, to name a few) are able and willing to produce diesels, while others (Ford, Toyota) are taking a different path. The reasons are probably many, but I think it shows that we will see quite a horse race in the next few years. It is nice to have options, on the other hand, too many choices will confuse the average consumer. Present company excluded
..."Ford Motor Co. can't make money selling cars with diesel engines in the United States. So it will use diesels only in trucks in North America.
Ford's powertrain plans became clearer at a pre-Detroit auto show event here last month. Mark Fields, Ford's president of the Americas, said the company will not launch a vehicle unless it makes money.
The F-150 pickup will get a new 4.4-liter turbocharged V-8 diesel engine developed by Land Rover. It is expected to debut in the United States by late 2008."...
So the good news bad news is if the F150 gets 19 mph H and diesel will put that at 30% more, that's a FULL SIZED truck that gets 24.7 mpg!!!! The bad news (or good news) depending on how one looks at it is the fleet that doesnt get diesel will get 30% less fuel mileage.
diesel preannouncements = lies.
CARB will find a way to stop most of these, sort of like "double secret probation" from the movie ANIMAL HOUSE.
really, i hope i'm wrong!
diesel preannouncements = lies.
CARB will find a way to stop most of these, sort of like "double secret probation" from the movie ANIMAL HOUSE.
really, i hope i'm wrong!
Sitting here 3000+ miles away it does look as though your legislators are making it as difficult as possible to bring diesel passenger cars into USA. Not quite worked out who/what is behind that but it has a whiff of old-fashioned protectionism. Any other thoughts ?
There is no protectionism as you say, mostly ignorance, close mindedness, and the unwillingness to re-evaluate a technology that has been significantly improved since the 1980's.
Those folk have now been exposed to the reality of modern diesels but millions more haven't and won't be until they start to appear in reasonable numbers. Catch 22 job.
Just call me Mr. Conspiracy because there is no way that diesels have been kept out of the U.S. like they have by accident. The oil companies planned it that way with the help of the automobile companies. Why? Obviously they both make more profit selling gasoline than they do selling diesel and diesel cars.
Up until the last couple of years, diesel has always been cheaper than reg. gas, but no more. Diesel cars get about 30% better mileage so now diesel costs about 30% more than reg. gas. If they can't keep diesels out they will simply raise the prices so that they have the savings rather than the motoring public.
They have very smart people to explain why diesel costs more now but it is all BS. It is simply greed.
There now. I feel much better!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I agree that Ford is having financial difficulties, however I would disagree that it is "impossible" for them to undertake a diesel car. They are making a business decision on what projects are best given their cash flow, engineering expertise and projects in the pipeline. I would also suggest that they are not as strong with their diesels as VW, Honda, Subaru or MB are or will be. The 6.0L Power Stroke® Turbo Diesel 32-valve had some issues when it came out.
Having said that, Ford does have diesel engines in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Duratorq_engine
Maybe someone from Europe can comment on the Duratorq motors and why they won't be coming to the States.
"For the same load and engine conditions, diesel engines spew out 100 times more sooty particles than gasoline engines."
http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=36089
"European emission standards and preferential taxation have forced oil refineries to dramatically reduce the level of sulfur in diesel fuels. In contrast, the United States has long had "dirtier" diesel, although more stringent emission standards have been adopted with the transition to ultra-low sulfur diesel (ULSD) starting in 2006 and becoming mandatory on June 1, 2010 (see also diesel exhaust)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel
So now that we have cleaner diesel we should see an up-tick in diesel sales. Not sure we will reach the 50% diesel sales Europe is seeing. In America people are still going for performance over MPG.
And before some of you diesel fans jump all over me for the performance comment, I think diesels are now about par with gas engines. That was not the case in the past. Many years ago a friend owned a MB diesel (1970s). Zero to sixty took something North of 20 seconds.
The new six speed transmissions seem to help too. The extra gears allow a diesel to stay in the productive power range.
IMO it's more a commercialization issue with all the big automakers. Note that only VW, which is a very small niche importer was the only one to offer a series of diesel autoss. The Big ones GM/F/T/H/N/DC all have to look at the whole market. The states which have the most restrictive limits are also the ones with some of the biggest populations and therefore the biggest markets.
Using Toyota as an example say one of their European diesels was offered for sale in the US. Toyota would have to tell some of their Mega stores in CA, those who are its biggest customers, that 'We are not going to allow you to sell these diesels. We are only going to allow Mom and Pop Toyota in Idaho to sell them. Take a hike Longo.' It creates a 'can-sell/can't-sell' situation amongst the dealers.
Until diesels can be sold in all the states none of the big makers will offer them to just a part of the market.
If Daimler or VW dealers sold diesel powered cars that had more than 7500 miles on them in the CARB states , they would sell very quickly indeed.
Until diesels can be sold in all the states none of the big makers will offer them to just a part of the market.
That is an untrue statement. VW and Daimler have sold diesels in the 45 state market. Daimler will be selling MY 2007 diesel vehicles in the 45 state market this year.
Still when you think about it, it is still cheaper to run a diesel than a gasser in spite of the extra cost of the fuel. Around here in metro D.C.(Maryland), gas costs about $2.50 per gallon while diesel is about $2.73 per gallon. That is no thirty percent. It is more like eight or nine percent.
Interesting thing about ULSD availability. While I was working in south Florida, I was able to get ULSD at just about any station that sold diesel fuel, even SAM's Club. I came back to Maryland (metro D.C.)last week and much to my surprise and chagrin I had a horrible time finding ULSD. Finally found a station that carries it a few miles from my house. Now considering how rotten the air is here from the second worst traffic in the country, you would think that ULSD would be far more available here than in Florida. What we have here is common sense at work.
So what? All they have to do is make more. With our mild winter, all the tanks are overflowing.
Around here in metro D.C.(Maryland), gas costs about $2.50 per gallon while diesel is about $2.73 per gallon. That is no thirty percent. It is more like eight or nine percent.
In the Kansas City area reg. gas is around $2.05 while diesel is around $2.60 and that is close to 30%.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
You need to shop around if you are paying $2.50 !! :shades:
And houdini1, Kansas City's lowest gas is at $1.89 and diesel at $2.25 for the lowest prices !!
SHOP AROUND FOLKS !!!
P.S. That's a 36 cent difference in both places..... :shades:
Using gasbuddy I find the lowest reg. gas price in the area at $1.85 and the highest diesel price at $2.65. That is an 80 cent difference. Using that scenario diesel is over 40% higher so I don't think my average was far out of line.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
So using a MB 320 gasser 28 mpg vs diesel 37 mpg (corner store price of 2.89 ) =.103/.078 per mile= diesel is 24.3% LESS expensive. If you are used to paying .078 cents for diesel and now pay .103 cents for a gasser you are paying 32% MORE.
Engine will doubtless appear in other Ford-group products. just thought you'd like to know.....................and that's even more diesel gonna be used in Europe, no doubt.
2008/2009 will be a different story but until now this has been the case.
Were you replying to a different post?
That makes me think the entire Land Rover line up, except the LR2, plus all of the F-150 based fords/lincolns should get it as well.