Is This the "Day of the Diesel?"

Kirstie_HKirstie_H EdmundsAdministrator Posts: 11,126
edited March 2014 in General
Though popular in Europe, diesels are scarce in the U.S. Is that about to change?
Day of the Diesel (plus 10 diesels you can buy now)

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  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Lord, I hope so. I'm still cheesed off that a 20-year-old Isuzu pickup with a diesel engine developed when dinosaurs walked the Earth got better mileage than any straight gas car sold in the US today. Heck, I've even thought about getting the front clip from a diesel Laurel and swapping the RD28T into a 240SX to get a diesel ride.
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    I just considered the hybrids for about 2 years now...really did research on them the last 6 months...and finally,,, bought a diesel !!

    The diesel 2002 jetta TDI that I got gets really respectable mileage...around 38 in town, and up to 49 mpg highway. IT has lots of power in low end....and I have a tow hitch on it.

    Only negative was the relative bad diesel smell....so I am using biodiesel from BioFuel Oasis in Berkeley, which has ASTM biodiesel at $3.70 per gallon. Yes...it costs a lot...but it is non toxic, cleaner than alot of vehicles, and a renewable resource.

    Diesels are great also because the engine lasts a long time....meaning you save the EARTH by using the engine for a long time....you save many resources and energy...versus a gas or hybrid engine, which may not last as long.

    To be fair, more and more gasoline engines are lasting longer..with 150,000 miles plus being common. I think hybrid technology is great also...but the thing about replacing batteries is just too environmentally unkind, and makes up for the gas and clean air savings.....

    I am all for a hybrid drive (HSD) Diesel engine....if and when one becomes available and the car maker does not milk people for it...... Nowadays the car dealers are charging lots of money for the hybrids....

    so I think diesel is the way to go....
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHMember Posts: 22,670
    -38MPG

    -700 miles per tank

    -0-60 in 6.6

    Mercedes style.

    They're dialing my Area Code :shades:

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    They would be dialing in a lot more area codes except for the $3.70/gallon price.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 31,008
    $3.70??!! Sounds like you need to find yourself a NEW area code. ;)

    Current national average is over $1 less than that, and its reported as being $2.50 in my area.

    '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '21 WRX, '20 S90 T6, '22 4xE. 62-car history and counting! MB Sprinter and '92 Nissan Gloria on the way!

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I believe the $3.70 biodiesel is in the Bay area of CA. Not known for bargain prices on gas or diesel. I think highender is making an environmental statement with using the VW TDI and biodiesel. Same as driving a Prius.

    That said biodiesel should come down some as supply catches up with the demand. Green Star supplies that area with biodiesel. They just built another plant in Bakersfield according to the president will try to get biodiesel into other areas of CA.

    http://www.greenstarusa.com/products/biodiesel.html
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The real problem here is this article is TRULY the documentation of a miracle in CA, while nobody CARES !! The building of a plant in CA might not be considered noteworthy, but if this were an crude oil refinery plant(ostensibly to produce unleaded regular for CA use), the whole state of CA; if not the USA would come out of the woodwork to STOP it WAY before the planning stages. Noteworthy, a crude oil refinery is probably much more dangerous exponentially on many more if not ALL levels, such as; health and safety, than a bio diesel processing plant. Yet there are those (again on many levels) that INSIST on NOT deviating from the use of unleaded regular despites its known and demonstrated higher costs, higher dangers ON EVERY LEVEL. So kudos to the entreprenuerial spirit. Longer term, hopefully the price of #2 diesel and biodiesel goes down and dramatically.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    It looks to me like crude oil will have to be over $60 per barrel for biodiesel to be economical. I believe that GSPI is using mostly soy beans for biodiesel production. I am not sure if they are shipped in or CA grown. I think we will always pay more for fuel of any kind in CA. We may not have any higher fuel tax. We just have limitations on how and where we get our fuel. I did not know until a recent article that only CA produced diesel was allowed to be used here. Well that makes it tough to have any kind of competitive pricing. I just look at it as the price we pay to live in semi paradise. The prices are even higher in Hawaii, which IS Paradise.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes, given the MAX 2.9% demand (% of the diesel passenger vehicle fleet)and the system of highway taxation, it will be tied to the price of crude oil.

    Truly that might have been the "deal with the devil" in the Faustian sense. If that is indeed true, then yes by structure almost guarantees at the very least, higher bio diesel prices.
  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    Please read post #3...It's not me that paid $3.70/gallon but highender!!!
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    LOL...hi guys...

    Yes... I drove my newly bought, used VW Jetta to Berkeley, drove into the one door garage, and signed up and filled out the waivers and other forms. Then pumped the biodiesel. IT is required that we sign up for this alternative fuel, which was granted exemption by the STATE of California, to the howls of protest by the Oil industry . Good thing logic prevailed, but not after much concessions on the diesel/biodiesel side.

    So we pay extra.... $3.70 about one week ago, to use this renewable resource. I have to admit, I did a double take...and thought a little whether I should spend more than $1 extra per gallon , just to make a statement. Then my logic for greater good ( like it does to you all) got a hold of me, and kicked the devil that was counting pennies in me, and I filled up. THere was one old American pickup before me, and another VW Jetta after me.

    I hope the oil companies not try to smother this renewable and easy resource.
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    You are right, Gagrice...! I hope biodiesel supply catches up with demand. On the other hand, I think diesels are good at the end or near middle of engine lifespan...meaning the engine lasts a long time...and thus one is saving the Earth by using a product that lasts a long time.

    Thanks for the advice, and the link to Green Star.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I think keeping a vehicle for a long time may be the best thing we can do for our environment. We are buying too much stuff that is throw away. Cars seem to be headed in that direction. Hope that TDI gives you many years of good service. Be sure and check out the tdiclub if you have not been there.
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    That the Green environmentalists allowed the biodiesel plant... I think sometimes there extreme protesting is nonproductive and hypocritical, but that is off topic.

    I think most people have some GREEN cells in thier makeup, and support the recycling or conservation efforts.

    I am also hopeful that diesel and biodiesel goes down in terms of prices...

    However, due to demand and oil industry monopoly, I think it will stay relatively higher than it should be.

    FOr the record, I have been in contact with a few home brewers of biodiesel, who bought or built their own processor, and does all the work. They tell me that the important ingredient in processing is the methanol, which now still comes from the oil industry. IT used to be only $3 a gallon, but now that the oil industry figured out what people were doing, it upped the price to $4.50...even though prices for gasoline came down.

    One brewer said he had about 250 gallons of vegi oil sitting around, while he figures out where to get the methanol .

    So oil industry has been attacking biodiesel on 2 fronts, thru legislation and by extorting high prices for one of the key ingredients for biodiesel processing.

    Therefore the $3.70 price tag, even though gas prices have been dropping, biodiesel went up in price.

    OK....I hope , like Rukes says, that the prices come down. I hope the oil industry realizes that biodiesel is not competition, since crude oil and diesel will always have a buyer...
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    Thanks gagrice...I signed up there also, with same callsign.

    IT gave me alot of info also....

    I agree with the detrimental throw away lifestyle that may need to be attenuated or decreased , depending on your viewpoint.

    I do hope I get alot of years out of the jetta. THe previous owner was meticulous to the point of extreme, saving all old parts to show me and all documents. He did all his mods, so that the manifold would not clog. Lots of tricks he told me , and I found collaborating info there.

    I am using it to commute, but there are also lots of local , in town usage, so my mileage is not 49 mpg , for now. But I think freeeway definitely is close to 45+.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I would also agree. To in effect "throw away" a car or buy a new car because it needs new tires, brakes, shock absorbers, etc, really makes not a lot of sense on many levels. However on the opposite side it can make all the sense in the world. So actually MY middle ground is sculpt the host of things that it takes, so the average age of the passenger vehicle fleet can be higher. A good start is a diesel engine in a durable environment.
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    Yes.. I would agreee to that...

    but here is the question:

    I have heard that many people see diesels run for 200,000 miles, even 300,000 miles.... Is that realistic ? Or the minority ?

    Of course, that is taking into consideration that one does all the maintenance and timing belt and injector pump replacements. But can the engine run that long ?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Starting off, diesels ARE a minority. Since passenger diesels are the quintessential definition of "minority" population (2.3-2.9%) I would say the TENDENCY is for those folks to not be unlike the greater population. However I see not much problem with 250,000 on up. My personal goal is a minimium of 500,000 miles. Indeed a new engine at say 500,000 miles is STILL far cheaper than a new car.
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    I agree again.

    I also hear that diesels are just about broken in when they have 60,000 or 100,000 miles.!! OF course, this is up to speculation, but I think it is not too far off.

    I am hoping at least 300,000 miles. :)
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    Properly maintained, I would think you should see at least 300K. I have over 200K on a 1985 SAAB 900 SOHC 4-cylinder gas engine, and the only replacement as been one clutch, and no engine parts. In fact, the head's never been off, and it's still going strong. So, I think any diesel should be in good shape after 300K+.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I have heard that many people see diesels run for 200,000 miles, even 300,000 miles

    I read an article in a business magazine. This company only bought used Mercedes diesel cars for their sales staff. They liked getting them with about 100k miles. They ran them to at least 250K miles and sometimes more depending on the condition of the rest of the car. They claimed very low cost per mile doing that. And the sales people were driving a luxury car.

    I have read here on Edmunds of VW owners with 1970s diesels still going strong. I think a gas or diesel engine that is maintained can go longer than the car. Many cars rust away before the engine quits running. IF well maintained.

    What bothers me with all new cars is the electronics. Electronics are more susceptible to cold and heat. As cheap as electronics are when you go to replace a module in a car it is EXPENSIVE.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    October 13, 2006

    Biofuel production coming to Watsonville
    By Daniel Lopez
    Sentinel staff writer
    WATSONVILLE — A $1.5 million biofuel production plant — the first of its kind in the county — could be up and running by February.

    http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2006/October/13/local/stories/11local.h- tm
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,555
    paid $2.39/gallon for 87 unleaded, diesel was $2.99/gallon. 25% more. Yes, I am in California. Is there a diesel passenger car (4 doors) that can get me 55 mpg routinely, to make up for this price differential? Is there even one in the pipeline, looking several years out to what automakers are pretty sure they can bring us (but not certain yet, as the EPA is still deciding whose diesels are up to snuff for the new 2007+ smog regs) by 2010?

    The car I was filling up gets me 41 mpg as a running average, running on 87 octane gas, in routine suburban driving and work commuting.

    'Nuf said?

    :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    The car I was filling up gets me 41 mpg as a running average, running on 87 octane gas

    I hope you are not comparing a 2000lb Echo to a 3200lb Jetta for mileage. Emissions is a wash for the Echo and the Jetta TDI. Can you imagine what kind of mileage you would get if that Echo had a 1.5L diesel? You would have a real cheap ride. I would say 70 MPG would be easy for you to get.

    A couple other factors. The high price of diesel in CA is brought about by our laws and taxes. There are additional taxes in CA on diesel over gas. Plus only diesel refined in CA is allowed. Makes for NO competition. Just the way CARB conceived it. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the laws and taxes are there to discourage the use of diesel in this state.

    Interesting fact is with diesel cars not allowed to get a foothold in CA, we still have the number one highest pollution in the LA basin. So it cannot be blamed on diesel passenger cars.

    Last, you could move to San Diego if you get a diesel car. We have ULSD by BP for $2.51 per gallon. That is only 10% more than the cheapest unleaded which is $2.26 per gallon.

    The Jetta is much safer than the Echo also.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 31,008
    I see.
    Sorry about the confusion. For some reason, his post didn't pop up at the top of my screen yesterday, so I only saw the link and then your response.

    Anyway, no harm no foul. It all makes sense now.

    '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '21 WRX, '20 S90 T6, '22 4xE. 62-car history and counting! MB Sprinter and '92 Nissan Gloria on the way!

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 31,008
    All I can say is that its a real shame for you. But, if those are the numbers you are working with and you don't want a nicer car, then stick with what you got. I don't believe anybody said diesel was the answer for everyone.

    I fully understand what you are saying, and it makes sense. This is what you have on hand and this is how it works for you. As gagice said, IF you had the option of a diesel in a comparable vehicle, it would inevitably work out to your advantage, but no, i have not yet seen that car in the pipeline with any hard numbers attached to it. I would look for Honda to get you what you need, but since the hard data is not available, we can't discuss it in any practical terms.

    '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '21 WRX, '20 S90 T6, '22 4xE. 62-car history and counting! MB Sprinter and '92 Nissan Gloria on the way!

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Actually as Gagrice continues in a later post, more needs to be said. He has addressed the macro conditions, so I will not retrace his steps. Since I have a car like yours and a diesel, side by side, I see it first hand and can answer whatever questions you might have. In the 54 mile R/T commute, the Honda Civic gets between 36-42 mpg. In the same commute using same driver/s it gets between 48-52 mpg. So the Honda weighs in at 2514#'s and the TDI weighs in at 2950. The Honda is 436 #'s lighter. Or the TDI is 436 heavier. So the easiest equalization would be to do that same commute with 3 more folks in the Honda, and of course have 1 person driving the TDI. If putting together 3 more folks is an issue, then borrow 436#'s of weights and do YOUR commute and see if it still dos 41 mpg. I can tell you the TDI loaded with three people and of course trunk filled to the gills does get better fuel mileage than the Honda Civic, AND it does that at 10-15 mph faster average speeds.

    On the price of diesel front, the price of diesel DOES bounce around. Also the prices do bounce around on the unleaded regular vs diesel

    ..."Last, you could move to San Diego if you get a diesel car. We have ULSD by BP for $2.51 per gallon. That is only 10% more than the cheapest unleaded which is $2.26 per gallon."...

    So sans your new data, but using your 41 mpg the price per mile driven =.0551219 vs diesel (my) 50 mpg= or .0502

    So if you run the math out 250,000 miles you will see the diesel savings is app 1200 dollars over the gasser.So I am sure you can see the tell tale signs why I have a Honda Civic and TDI vs 2 TDI's. My time horizon for the Civic is 250,000 and hopefully more. The time horizon for the TDI is 500,000 miles and hopefully more.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,555
    I was kinda messing with you, hence the :-P in there.

    However, it is all about choice. As a solo commuter, I am not interested in adding 436 pounds to my car - it's always just me in there on the way to work and most of my other errands. I will buy VW's 2100-pound diesel car just as soon as they produce it, which of course they never will, so I will be waiting a long time there. And I live in California, so regardless of the reasons my diesel costs a lot, there is no escaping it for me.

    One thing that is often ignored in diesel conversations is that the automakers that have been expectionally good at offering light cars with small thrifty gas engines over the years are still pretty good at doing that, and you have several choices (mainly Japanese at present - I expect to see the Koreans and Korean-sourced domestics do better in the next few years) that can reach or top 40 mpg in everyday use. Now for trucks and SUVs, I agree without question that more diesels should be offered. As soon as they can get it clean enough, it should go without question that those types of vehicles have a standard or optional diesel engine.

    They do make a diesel version of my car, it just isn't sold here. In Europe, it makes 62 mpg, so you may be onto something as far as the potential for diesel even in my car! :-)

    But I don't expect them to offer cars that slow in the States ever again. Which is a great shame, and a major setback to the quest for better fuel economy in the fleet.

    And then of course, they also have a 1.3L gas version of my car which gets 47 mpg, so they could be doing better in the States even if they didn't offer a diesel here. But that is ALSO a pretty slow car by American standards (rated at 11 seconds 0-60). The problem in the States is everyone thinks they need a race car to drive to work and the grocery store.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 31,008
    i agree. a common mistake automakers seem to make is that the diesel be as small and underpowered as possible to achieve the best mileage. I think Benz has it right in offering a diesel alternative that is just as fast as the gasser but gets about a third better mileage in the process.

    '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '21 WRX, '20 S90 T6, '22 4xE. 62-car history and counting! MB Sprinter and '92 Nissan Gloria on the way!

  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,555
    To me it seems obvious that the European manufacturers like Mercedes and especially VW should take the next step, and offer two different diesels, one super-thrifty and one for performance, and only one gas option.

    But I agree with you - if they are only going to offer one, Mercedes has hit the speet spot with the diesel in the E320.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    The problem in the States is everyone thinks they need a race car to drive to work and the grocery store.

    I don't think it is going to the store that is the issue. It is merging into freeway traffic. On my trip to Church I have to enter Interstate 8 going up hill. Most of the time I have to drive harder than I like to merge into the right lane. It is a 70 MPH zone and that means people are driving 70+ MPH in both lanes at that point. My V8 PU strains to get into traffic without slowing someone in the right lane down. I cannot imagine driving any vehicle that does not do 0-60 in 9 seconds or less on that freeway entrance. That being some of my basis for not liking many of the small cars being sold.

    If I had a vehicle just for running errands to the store 35 MPH top speed would be adequate.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    In effect, you ARE the ANGST of which Gagrice speaks, both good and bad.

    I can understand you not wanting to actually do the 436# experiment. I also think you intuitively know the answer. :) The actual answer would probably shock you. :( So let me cut to the chase, since VW has a like gasser, the VW Jetta gasser: EPA is 24/31 mpg

    vs 42/49 VW JETTA TDI, the nexus here is it is like for like sans the gasser vs diesel. Again using 2.26 vs 2.51, the fuel per mile driven is .0729032 gasser (29.7% MORE)

    vs .0512244.

    So again carry that out for 250,000/500,000 miles.

    So if the price were the same (2.26/31.49 =.0729032/.0461224=36.7%

    The USA oil demand has lessen a bit more than 1% against a background of 4% growth per year, ie still growing at a bit less than 3% per year. Even Chavez (Venezuela) is shaking in his Gucci's. Can you imagine what 37% LESS oil demand would do???? !!! Why would we want peace in our time?
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla VirginiaMember Posts: 707
    Then you need a VW GTI.

    0-60 in 6.7 seconds.

    And that's from a 4-banger in a 3,100 lb vehicle, too.

    :P
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    I did not know GTI had a diesel that goes to 60 in 6.7 secs....??!!

    Naw.....I think I will stick to my diesel....lots of power , even to tow.....and runs on biodiesel too..!!

    but I do like the GTI also.... :-)
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    When I bought my 2005 Passat Wagon TDI, I test drove the V6 & the 1.8L models. I did not like the highway power with either one as much as the 4 cylinder diesel. Not as smooth at low RPMs. 75 MPH at 2100 RPMs all day up hill or down, yielded 37-40 MPG. Nothing else in that class comes close. Hopefully the new generation diesel is as good as the last. Plus the gassers all require Premium. Diesel in San Diego is below Premium again.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Diesel in San Diego is below Premium again."...

    While it is true and I have also said so in past posts, that the price of diesel does bounce around, the fact of the matter is your quote is a very little acknowledge fact by the anti diesel crowd. Indeed there is a very high % of unleaded premium users. I do not know what it is actually, but surely it is higher than the 2.9% diesel passenger vehicle fleet that do require the use of unleaded premium.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    In 2005, I considered a Passat TDI wagon. It drove nicely and power was adequate. The thing I did not like about it was that I was required to get oil and service at the dealer to maintain the warranty. The other thing I did not like was that it was a pain to change the oil by myself.

    I purchased a Jeep Liberty Limited CRD for a bit more money and I have been quite pleased with it. It may not get the FE of the Passat, but at 31 MPG on the road, I am satisfied with that considering the Liberty has the aerodynamics of a cinder block and weighs over 4300 pounds empty.

    Even though diesel fuel is a bit more costly than regular unleaded, one goes much further on a gallon of diesel than on a gallon of unleaded regular.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 31,008
    The thing I did not like about it was that I was required to get oil and service at the dealer to maintain the warranty.

    Hmmmm... was this (and is this still) stated by Volkwagen North America? Or was this a line of dealer BS? I thought it was by law that a warranty could not be voided because you had service work done at a non-dealer (unless, of course, said non-dealer did something that caused the malfunction).

    '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '21 WRX, '20 S90 T6, '22 4xE. 62-car history and counting! MB Sprinter and '92 Nissan Gloria on the way!

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I am bummed that whomever conveyed this information did a HUGE disservice!

    In addition, I imagine the Passat has the same oil drain procedures (there are of course options) as the Jetta, Beetle, Golf, and one option is the oil CAN be evacuated using an oil evaculator, which (sucks) empties the oil through the dipstick. This takes all of 2 min with the rest of the 7 to 8 mins of a 10 min oil change interval doing admin things such as changing the oil filter, opening the new oil containers, etc.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I do not know if it was a line of BS from the dealer but they were adamant that I had to use their oil and filter and that even if I did it myself and kept good records and if I kept every receipt, then warranty claims could still be a potential issue, even if I did everything correctly. That in itself was a big negative to buying the car.

    One other issue I had with the Passat (just remembered) was that the TDI engine took only four quarts of oil, not enough in my view. My 1981 Isuzu I-Mark 1.8L diesel took seven quarts of oil and my Jeep Liberty CRD (2.8L four) takes about six and one-half. Considering that domestic diesel is really no better than third world diesel, save for less sulfur, more oil is better.

    To respond to Ruking's comment in the succeeding post, I prefer to crawl under the car and evaluate everything that I can see while I do the oil and filter change. That is something that is important to me because dealers or facilities that do the oil change generally do not inspect the suspension, brakes, lines, hoses, etc., closely the way I do. Also, there is a plate that needs to e removed to do the oil change and there are a bunch of bolts to take off and replace. When I change the oil, I do it on a hot engine and I let the oil drain for twenty minutes while I do my inspection. Sucking out the oil does not get all of the dirty oil out. I have considered this technique.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I am glad you are having a great experience with the Jeep Liberty TDI!!

    However for sure, you can chalk that unbuttoning and rebuttoning procedures of the Passat to German engineering! :) So the good news and (for some aspects) the bad news is it has a oil pan sort of "protective" plastic piece. So whether you do the evacuation method or the more conventional way, one still should conduct inspections; visual and/or otherwise. So if one is prone to tinkering and modification, etc., one can order either a steel or aluminum protective plate to take the place of the plastic one.

    In reference to German engineering the use (actually more than gal) of oil is well engineered. Using appropriate VW spec'ed oil, the recommended OCI is 10,000. I currently run (after the meager warranty period) 25,000 mile OCI's with Mobil One Truck and Suv 5w40. With the recent switch from LSD to ULSD, there is now even far less potential for soot (%) formation. Indeed the switch makes it a prime candidate to extend the OCI from 25,000 miles to 30,000 miles. I personally think we have come a long way from 1500 to 3000 mile OCI's(conventional oil) on a 1970 VW Beetle (run on leaded regular gas)
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Jeep Liberty diesels are referred to as CRD. In fact, all of the European sold Chyrslers with diesels are referred to as CRD.

    As to that cover under the engine it serves two purposes, noise control and aerodynamic improvement. The draw back to that plate, other than being a pain during oil change is that airflow through the engine compartment is somewhat restricted, something that makes me a bit unhappy. I am rather old fashioned about somethings and like lots of air, oil and coolant. No matter how well something is engineered, I prefer it be over engineered/overbuilt.

    As to the OCI, I tend to change oil more frequently than the manufacturer calls for. The engine in my Jeep is made by V.M. Motori, a now wholly owned subsidiary of Daimler-Chrysler. They have been making high quality diesel engines of all sorts since 1947 and Chrysler has been using their diesels since the 1980's in the European models quite successfully. They recommend an OCI of 6250 miles if you do lots of towing or stop and go driving. Otherwise, it is 12,000 miles. The recommended oil is Mobil 1 0W-40 which I and others in the Jeep Liberty diesel forum (recently deceased) refuse to use. Most of use are using a CI-4+ rated 5W-40 synthetic while a few of us, including myself are using a synthetic 15W-40 (Amsoil or RedLine)that is CI-4+ rated and specs out like most synthetic 5W-40 oils in many respects.

    A comment about domestic diesel, especially ULSD. I contacted most of the large refiners and asked them how much the cetane would improve. All answered two or three points. I was quite disappointed by this answer as EU diesel has a cetane of 51 or better. Higher cetane yields a cleaner, faster burn with fewer emissions including PM. Unfortunately the only domestic diesel similar to EU diesel is found in southern CA and Hawaii. I call it CARB diesel. Both EU and CARB diesel have a very low percentage of aromatic compounds, less than ten percent. The rest of the country gets diesel with thirty-five percent aromatic content. These aromatic compounds do contribute to PM formation also but to a lesser degree than the sulfur. With the continuing low cetane, I am sticking my my 5K OCI because you will still have too much oil contamination.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I have really never been able to tell much difference (82,000 miles) SOTP between fuels; 49 states vs CA, and the new CA ULSD. I have also fueled in the north and the south CA and vice versa, (if that would make any difference). I have been using Primrose 405C, a cetane booster. (mainly for lubricity purposes) Again, with or without, still can't tell. My records also offer no indication. Indeed the vendor I buy it from has dropped it from his inventory.

    As a point of remembrance the change over was not as smooth when changing from leaded regular to unleaded regular in the 70's.

    I have also read ethanol is starting to present some corrosion (damage) concerns.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Ethanol has always been problematic, especially with long term exposure. Gasket and seal materials are not the real issue anymore, but the extensive use of aluminum is. Ethanol and aluminum do not like each other especially in concentrations exceeding ten percent (E10).

    Toyota make its engines primarily from aluminum or aluminum alloys and has no plans to build an E85 car because their engineers are aware of the corrosion issue. If E85 is going to become the rage for the moment, how will Toyota overcome the 24% loss in FE? Should be interesting.

    As to SOTP, it is hard to tell differences between various cetane levels of diesel fuel. I use cetane improver also from Amsoil or RedLine, and there are some noticeable differences in the Jeep. If I fail to add cetane improver and/or detergent to the fuel as I fill, then the engine is noisier, idles less smoothly and overall seems less perky.

    About six weeks ago I put a K&N filter in the Jeep so it now runs differently and because the turbo lag is significantly less and thus is a little quicker off the line. FE is about the same.
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    Indeed there is a very high % of unleaded premium users. I do not know what it is actually

    YEP , I agree.....there are more people who use Premium 92 octane gas, than there are people who use diesel.

    I do not have facts..but I am willing to bet that it is at least 10 times more Premium users than diesel.

    Just among my friends, I am the only diesel user, while the rest use gasoline, there are over 10 who use Premium 92 octane. Anectodal, but true for most people.

    Most sports cars, sports sedans, luxury cars, etc...require Premium 92 octane.......
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    I do not know if it was a line of BS from the dealer but they were adamant that I had to use their oil and filter and that even if I did it myself and kept good records and if I kept every receipt, then warranty claims could still be a potential issue, even if I did everything correctly. That in itself was a big negative to buying the car.

    I am pretty sure the dealer pulled a quick one on you when they said that the warranty would be invalid if someone else did the oil change.

    All the aftermarket auto suppliers, auto parts dealers, thousands of repair shops, performance parts dealers, etc...got together, and made sure that did not happen. As long as the part or service does not significantly change the original manufacturers parts or function, then the dealer has to honor the warranty. That is the Fed mandated law...!!! IF any dealer ,...any one at all, tries to pull that one , it is either dishonesty or greed, or ignorance. :mad:

    If you add a supercharger, or change the nozzles, or Mass air flow sensor, then I can see the warranty being void. But changing the oil, adding coolant, or changing the tires, are innocous items ....and the dealer should be exposed for the lies that they tried to pass to you....
  • highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    I added/filled up on biodiesel on Oct 11, when there was still 15% diesel #2 , zeroed the miles counter....and today, Oct 27, I went to fill up after going 518 miles....used almost exactly 12 gallons ( 11.999 gal) so fuel economy for mixed driving is 43 mpg......!!!!

    wow...this is after going up a steep hill to get to the freeway, fighting thru stop and go traffic, and hauling the kids and stuff sometimes.....

    I thought someone said that biodiesel would give me a 10% to 20% decrease in fuel economy....but this is great.!! I filled up on diesel #2 today....because I did not have time to go to Berkeley for the biodiesel. Will compare the mileage in 2 weeks.....see if there is a difference,....

    I like diesels because they last long, give great gas mileage...and allow one to go off dino oil if one chooses to do so...without any modifications to your engine...!!
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    This incident was a big reason I did not buy the Passat TDI. The oil requirements they insisted on and VW's moving target with oil specifications was another reason I did not buy a Passat TDI. The final killer was that plate/shield under the engine that was held on by many bolts. It was just too messy.

    I aware of the federal law which I believe to be Moss-Magnuson or something like that. I understand what it is for and did not realize it existed until after I purchased my CRD.

    In all honesty, the Passat was a second choice while the Jetta TDI wagon was initially my first choice. I drove both and found them adequate. Once I heard about the Jeep Liberty CRD and drove it, my mind was made up and I bought it. The CRD is significantly tougher and more versatile than either VW.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,555
    87 unleaded, $2.25/gallon, diesel, $2.97/gallon. Meaning a diesel car would have to go 1/3 more miles on the same amount of fuel than the comparable gas car. Meaning at the 43 mpg mentioned above for the Jetta TDI, we would only have to find a compact car that runs on gas and can average 32 mpg or more. I believe there are several, including one whose numbers I saw mentioned at Edmunds very recently, the Cobalt. Of course, also Civic and Corolla, which can actually exceed that number by a few points usually.

    On the flip side, a Vue Green Line which costs about the same as that Jetta TDI is supposed to be able to do high 20s all the time, so very close to the equivalent mileage adjusting for fuel price, while offering more room etc. Or there is the Camry hybrid which costs about $3K more, offering more space and amenities, as well as offering MORE than the equivalent fuel economy after adjusting for price (magazines are routinely getting around 37 mpg in the TCH; at least that's the number I've seen in at least two reviews now). The Passat TDI, when one is finally offered after the 2007 hiatus, will presumably cost more than the Camry hybrid ($25K), while having less power and getting about the same fuel economy, on fuel which costs 1/3 more.

    Just thought I would keep the debate honest! :-P

    Seriously, I think the new diesel tech makes a very good business case for companies that would rather invest in diesel powertrains then hybrid powertrains. For now, the development of both seems to be running neck and neck, when you take into account the total cost of the fuel per mile and the amount of power and sophistication they bring to motoring.

    I would like to know what R&T meant in an article I read yesterday that talked about how lowering the sulfur count to 15 PPM in the new ULSD makes it more prone to the same problem biodiesel can have: it becomes gelatinous at low temperatures and requires the mixing in of more straight oil-based diesel so that the engine will start when it's cold.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    You make a good argument. In fact when I bought my Passat TDI, diesel was much more expensive than unleaded. So I got in under invoice. When diesel became less than unleaded a year later I sold the Passat diesel for $3k more than I paid for it. So it can work to the benefit of a wise shopper.

    We are really at the mercy of EPA/CARB and the oil companies on diesel. If the oil companies can get together and sell fuel by the BTU, diesel becomes less of a good deal. The way I understand refining, you get a little of this and a little of that. In other words you cannot say I am going to refine this whole barrel into diesel or gasoline. That is the reason that diesel is in short supply in the winter. Many folks heat with it and that keeps the price high. Come spring or a mild winter they have too much diesel and the price comes down. CA is the only place that gets screwed big time on diesel. With the 1990 mandate that all diesel sold in CA had to be refined here, it killed any outside competition. It also screwed the trucking companies trying to operate in CA. Add to that the additional tax on diesel in CA.

    Your price for gas is right with the National average at $2.25. The National average for diesel is $2.52, making your price 45 cents over the National average. I just bought 5 gallons of diesel for my tractor. I paid $2.49 at Thrifty Gas. The station that sells red dye diesel was getting $2.79. You got to shop around for the best prices.
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