Is This the "Day of the Diesel?"

ruking1

Now that is probably for sure !!

I have to tell you, for me this diesel is a very radical departure. The old school thought was @ 100,000 miles you should have started looking to sell the cinderella cinderfella at 75,000 miles!! Another was full break in (diesel cylinder engine compression) was at 60,000 miles! Oil and filter at 3,000 miles used to be setting up the motor for premature failure and 5 #'s of sludge. So it is way cool for me to change oil and filter at 20,000 to 25,000 miles!! With the advent of ULSD, indications are with the correct oils such as Delvac One 5w40 in the 2003, or less specifically ELF 0w30 VW 507.01 specification, 30,000 miles!!!

kdhspyder

The biggest advantage you two have with the TDI is while you are cruising at 1500 RPMs the guy next to you in his Camry 4 cylinder is turning about 2800 RPM. The hybrids from what I hear spend a lot of time up close to 5000 RPM. Just the simple math tells you that the TDI longevity is at least 40% better with less cycles of the engine.

A slight correction...

The HSD improvement for the Gen2 Prius and HH and TCH was to increase the Atkinson Cycle ICE to be able to go up to 5000 rpms....when needed.

The huge benefit of the HSD system is that while cruising at normal highway speeds the rpm's normally are in the 1600-1800 area. An Otto cycle ICE 2.4L Camry at 60-65 mph turns at about 1900 rpms +/-. However the big benefit of the HSD on the Highway is that at times of lessened load the ICE goes to 'idle' at ~950 rpms for as long as the load is lessened. ( declines, coasting, slowdowns, just cruising with the prevailing wind )

By your observation then the ICE in the HSD system should last about 25% longer than say a diesel or ICE if it was driven only on the highway. But since it's driven also in slower traffic where it shuts down entirely the lifetime starts to escalate. It's quantifiable but the ICE in the HSD may work 25-40% less than a diesel or pure ICE.

ruking1

It is also commonly known that a normal gasser engine should be operated (minimally) roughly for an hour's time to let the various systems come to optimum levels, the best of course being highway miles at operating temperature and RPMs.

This is only to serve as a comment on the underlying assumptions. So the very act of the atkinson cycle ICE "shutting down" or being off app 20% of the time, would also tend to degrade the ICE and other systems. % wise I would have a SWAG but truly have not followed the indepth technical data.

So for example while I would not wish an hours' commute on anyone, including myself, it is the minimally optimum operating distance, so all systems can get up to optimium levels.

kdhspyder

This is only to serve as a comment on the underlying assumptions. So the very act of the atkinson cycle ICE "shutting down" or being off app 20% of the time, would also tend to degrade the ICE and other systems. % wise I would have a SWAG but truly have not followed the indepth technical data.

Faulty conclusion due to lack of familiarity with the system.

It is also commonly known that a normal gasser engine should be operated (minimally) roughly for an hour's time to let the various systems come to optimum levels, the best of course being highway miles at operating temperature and RPMs.

Huh? an hour? I'd like to see these common knowledge recommendations.

ruking1

..."Faulty conclusion due to lack of familiarity with the system."...

I don't have a problem with that at all, but you do need to make a better conclusion.

So as it relates to diesels, are you swagging durabilty like diesels?

highender

:shades: Yikes....kdhspyder...

you reminded me that the Prius is constantly cycling between the two systems...

which of course, would lessen some of the load...

but gosh...these on and off cycles themselves are bad ....if a switch and tons of solenoids and tons of mechanical and electrical items go thru so many cycles....something is bound to break...eh ?

Kind of like turning a light bulb on and off...it is the difference in energy and the on off cycle, that decreases the lifespan of a lightbulb......

I hope toyota engineers took that into considerations when making the Prius...

Personally, I have been shopping for Prius or Insight for over 2 years....but chose a Diesel Tdi jetta instead....due to the overall environmental friendliness of the vehicle compared to all others....plus the value.

One dealer in Antioch invited me to go in and test drive the Insight that they had...but he warned me that with 107,000 miles...even though they were freeway miles, to take into consideration of lifespan of the small engine and need to replace batteries....ugh !!!

Same consideration was given to me be a dealer salesman in Walnut Creek. He specialized in Priuses and Civic Hybrids.

Nice guys , to give fair warnings...something definitely rare in the used car sales world....

I hope they make Hybrids:
1- last as long as diesel engined vehicles..
2- get as good mileage , real world, as diesels..
3- make them able to take renewable fuels...
4- more environmentally friendly batteries
5- more cost/value affordable...

I just filled up my TDI with biodiesel , and it has 300 miles on it, with more than 3/8 tank left.....I imagine I am goiing to get only 47 mpg due to the morning rush hour...sigh....not going to break 52 this time...

but it does feel good to support American farmers !!!!!

ruking1

"but it does feel good to support American farmers !!!!!"

This might be considered ARCANE or falls under " who really gives a Darn" but in urban planning LOCAL generated products have at least an 8-1 multiplier effect over so called imported products (sold locally).

As it applies to diesel, diesel's raw materials can be grown!! Is there even any R and D work to see if the same can be said of unleaded regular? (LOL) Diesel also has the POTENTIAL to be an almost totally local (USA) product just due solely from coal gassification with (known) reserves greater than the current world consumption of crude oil for the next 200 to 500 years!!! Diesel can be refined also from natural gas!!

kdhspyder

I'd buy a diesel that could use biofuel in a heartbeat if the vehicle was...
.. midsized
.. reliable
.. comfortable to drive
.. had ALL the safety equipment
.. mid $20K range
.. quiet when cruising
.. legal of course

A hybrid diesel would be better yet but I'd pull the trigger first on the diesel if the fuel was available throughout the E Coast.

ruking1

Goes back to what I said about having the diesel option for most of the oems' line up. VW has basically the Jetta, Passat, Golf, New Beetle and one of the criticism's is; it is a VW.

elias

i bought my 4th VW TDI this year (we own two currently).
they've all been fantastic. i haven't put more than 60k miles on one yet though.
VW only approves of 5% biodiesel but there are many tdi people using B20 or B100 with success. me, i won't go beyond what VW recommends and have yet to try biodiesel. some day i'll drive to local biodiesel place and put in a gallon of B20 with ~12 gallons of D2, and that will result in something very close to B5.

blufz1

Wrong. The rpms an engine turns has nothing to do with whether it is gas or diesel. It is the final drive ratio that determines the rpms at any given speed regardless of engine type.

qbrozen

no ... his post is absolutely correct. A diesel cruises at lower rpms. He didn't say it turns the same rpms with the same gears. The gearing in diesels is designed to allow the engine to run at lower revs. So diesels rev lower. Period. Both because they can and because they must.

larsb

quote, "A diesel cruises at lower rpms."

it does, but NOT merely because it's a diesel engine. It's because the gearing is designed that way. Many gasoline engines are geared for low rpms at highway speeds also.

qbrozen

right. and i mentioned that.

a gas engine can be geared that way, but only if it has the low-end power to keep it cruing at high speeds at low rpms. The low-end power advantage of a diesel is the reason the gearing can be so tall. Liter for liter, there is no comparison. A diesel can run at lower rpms than a gasser.

I was merely pointing out that gagrice said nothing incorrect in his post. And, for that matter, neither did the person who responded ... except for saying gagrice was wrong.

gagrice

2.4L Camry at 60-65 mph turns at about 1900 rpms +/-.

They must build them different for the Canadian market then. At the 90 KMH (about 56 MPH) speed limit, the 2005 Camry we rented was sitting at 2100 RPM. According to Edmund's the 2005 Camry 4 cylinder produces 163 ft lbs of torque @ 4000 RPM, by contrast the 2005 Passat TDI has 247 ft lbs of torque @ 1900 RPM. That means if you are cruising on the Interstate at 75 MPH (the speed limit) the Camry will not be able to maintain that speed on the hills as well as the Passat. I have not driven on an Interstate highway that required a downshift from 5th gear with the Passat to maintain my speed. I have with the gas engines in my PU trucks and Lexus V8. Torque rules on the highways, Diesel the wave of the future and hopefully BIODIESEL will be part of the equation.

elias

gbrozen, as long as we are nitpicking, i think you mean "low-end torque" not "low-end-power".
gagrice, you are right aboutthe TDIs hill-climbing ability - with a TDI, i enjoy blowing past cars on steep uphills - without downshifting. an added bonus is i've never seen a speed-trap on a steep uphill - too slim-pickins for the revenue-generators there.... (i slow down when i crest the hill!)

ruking1

I think everyone that doubts this should indeed do an A/B test (gasser/diesel) if they can. The difference especially up long grades is indeed dramatic.

Our commute Honda Civic has 110 hp vs Jetta TDI of 90 hp or -20 hp. Pretty unambiguous here!! In addition, the Civic is close to 500#'s lighter. Again most folks know what this means (gasser vs gasser)

While the Civic (on the road) is a performance trooper, for longer trips, I will chose the TDI almost every time!! Of course on the road it doesnt hurt to get 48-52 mpg vs app 38-42 mpg.

alltorque

It's the diesel's low-end torque that gives it the ability to drive tall gearing and undoubtedly contributes to both better economy and longer life. My Skoda Fabia vRs runs the VAG 1.9 TDi engine; 130bhp/229ft lbs and happily cruises at 80mph at circa 2400 rpm in 6th gear. It handles hills with gusto and will still accelerate quite respectably in 6th..........in any of the lower gears it's a bit of a beast. Skoda quote 9.2 sec for 0-62mph but owners all know that's very pessimistic. Once loosened up, (10k miles or so), it will do considerably better. The UK magazine "Autocar" timed their long-term test car at 7.2 secs for the 0-62mph dash. Not too bad for a small 5 door diesel hatchback in standard trim, (it's built on the VW Polo chassis). My last tank of diesel gave me an average of a shade over 49mpg, (Imperial gallon). That was a mix of highway cruising, back road fun and city crawl. Of course, being such an inherently strong motor it is possible to "chip" these engines and 225bhp is not uncommon. Along with that goes a mountain of torque. I'm convinced that TDi-type engines, (including the current Honda 2.2 CDTi, another lovely engine), are the future, and increasing sales in Europe suggest I'm not alone. Audi winning Le Mans 24 Hour with their monster diesel racers didn't do oil-burners any harm either. My next car will also be a diesel - probably a Skoda Octavia, (built on the latest VW Golf A5 chassis), with the 2.0 TDi with 140bhp and driving through a 6-speed DSG g'box. Relaxation or fun, your choice. Economy comes as standard.

ruking1

WOO HOO !!

Three points; 1. your 49 mpg (imp) gal should be converted to the 128 oz gal (US) = app 41 mpg. We dieseler's are usually suspected of "padding" our mpg figures! 2. As a comparison, the VW TDI 1.9 arrives relatively toothless 90 hp/155# ft and minus the 6th gear or double overdrive.
3. It also appears your clutch (and ancillary parts) is FAR beefer than the "for USA" export model.

qbrozen

who is picking nits aside from you?
Because someone called someone else "wrong" when they weren't and I had to point it out? How is that a nit?

edit: ehhh.. never mind. i had written more, but decided you've dragged the conversation down enough already.

highender

I run my TDI on 100% biodiesel...with no problems. Many people do.

It is a renewable resource. Add to that the fact that these engines are known to last very long, and you have a win win situation.

I just added some peanut oil ( that I filered) to some biodiesel and regular diesel to make a blend...and the car runs fine without a hiccup. Just change the oil at regular intervals.

highender

Hi Kdhspyder:

I'd buy a diesel that could use biofuel in a heartbeat if the vehicle was...
.. midsized
.. reliable
.. comfortable to drive
.. had ALL the safety equipment
.. mid $20K range
.. quiet when cruising
.. legal of course

A hybrid diesel would be better yet but I'd pull the trigger first on the diesel if the fuel was available throughout the E Coast.

I would suggest the VW 2006 Jetta TDI...which is about the size of an older camry...but which would meet your specs. Of course, they are VWs...not a Japanese car...but Still pretty nice and durable. It is not unusual to run these engines to more than 200,000 miles without a rebuilt. Modern diesels do not have the loud put-put sounds , and have all the safety features.....

I run my TDI on a variety of fuels and blends...it is great. Yes...biodiesel may be harder to find on the EAst Coast, but it will be coming if not already there.

THere is also lots of research into making biodiesel out of algae !!!

Good luck...

elias

qfrozen, looks like you didn't edit quite enough - i bet you can do better next time.
and now for my next nitpick;
we'll see if the dude i'm nitpicking now can take the intense pressure... here goes:
the current 1.9 VW TDIs specs are neither 90hp nor 155ftlbs - they are 100 hp and 177 ftlbs. woo hoo!
(by the way, in the animal kingdom, nitpicking is a sign of affection. feel the love!)

kdhspyder

After spending the better part of the last 17 years in 4c Camry's on all the Interstates on the E. Coast I can be very very certain that at moderate cruising speeds from 55-65 mph you will be under 2000 rpms. Now go up to 75 mph and yes it will start to move up to 2200-2400 rpms.

zodiac2004

Stop making us jealous.

I'd take any of those cars over the stuff we get here in N/A.

zodiac2004

who is picking nits aside from you?
Because someone called someone else "wrong" when they weren't and I had to point it out? How is that a nit?


Besides being the one picking nits, elias was also wrong.

Torque is useless without RPM.
A linear product of torque and RPM is HP. It's HP that moves objects.

elias

hi zodiac. thanks so much for the physics lesson. possibly your own statement is wrong or an oversimplification too - or have you really found a way to summarize everything about HP/torque as related to vehicles, in just 2 sentences! ?
my original nitpick was that i thought qbrozen meant torque not HP. so qbrozen is the only one qualified to know for sure whether i was right about what he meant. (from qbrozen's response, it does appear that my psychic abilities are too weak.).
now, back to the subject: "Is this the day of the Diesel"?
my answer:
"NO not yet, but check in 2008 to see whether CARB finds yet another effective way to prevent the sale of the latest ~50 mpg diesel cars."

alltorque

Ruking1, Apologies for using Imp Galls but that's how I still calculate my economy, (despite the fact that we buy fuel in Litres). I will convert to USG in future. Think the 90bhp 1.9 TDi is only available in the the lower-end Fabia's here in Europe. That engine normally starts at 105bhp. If you want fun have a look at the link. This is the latest Skoda Octavia vRS, (latest Golf A5 platform, but bigger & cheaper). Choice of 200bhp gasser or 170bhp 2.0TDi - saloon or estate all with 6-speed manuals. As always, the 0-62 figures are pessimistic. Diesel really is showing the way. Apologies for going on about Skoda but I'm a convert - 3 in our family, (would have been 4 but my wife lusted after the Honda Jazz, (Fit), with the 7-speed CVT 'box with full auto or paddle change and I have to say it's a brilliant motor car and great fun to drive). Skoda use all VAG parts, but different bodies, they are cheaper than VW, better built, more reliable, (JD Power surveys), and the dealers care, so customer service is generally far better.

Site navigation is not brilliant but the cars are. Enjoy, my friends.

www.newoctaviavrs.co.uk/

alltorque

Three things :

1. I, incorrectly, stated that the Octavia was available in Saloon or Estate. It is not a saloon, it's a 5-door Hatchback or an Estate, (Wagon ?). They also produce a 4x4 version of the Estate and are soon to launch an improved 4x4 Estate that looks a lot like the Audi A6 Allroad, (but smaller of course). Apologies for the sloppy info.

2. Go here for a picture of my Fabia vRS when it was new, late '04, (though it looks the same today). Just so you can see what I keep yakking on about.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m306/parrotnoid/Goodwood06/Cars%20General/DSC- F1095.jpg

3. Here's the link to Skoda UK. The "Superb" is basically a VW Passat with a 4" stretch and acres of room. Available as a 4-door Saloon only with 1.9, 2.0 & 2.5 TDi's and 1.8T, 2.0 and 2.8V6 gassers. One of the smilley features is an umbrella that slides into a drained compartment in the left rear door passenger armrest. :shades:

www.skoda.co.uk/skoda3g/survey.aspx

zodiac2004

hi zodiac. thanks so much for the physics lesson. possibly your own statement is wrong or an oversimplification too - or have you really found a way to summarize everything about HP/torque as related to vehicles, in just 2 sentences! ?

Ehh?
My statement was neither wrong nor an ovesimplification.
As it relates to vehicles, torque is useless without RPM - it cannot do any work.
Work (as in moving a car with a certain acceleration/speed) is a function of torque produced AND rpm - also called as ...........HP.

There you have it - 2 sentences.

No need for you to cop an attitude. Most folks on this forum don't need this physics lesson, but it appears you do. Nothing wrong with that. Just be nice about it.

elias

what's next, zodi, do we compare colleges, physics grades, and how many post-grad letters we have after our names? naaaah. how about let's get on topic and talk diesels? the name/subject of this forum is a bit amorphous, but here's one more try:
when will be the next "day of diesel" for you, if any, dear zodiac-inator?
i haven't had a "diesel day" in a while - i've been driving my 400hp&400ftlb GTO. but in a few days I will begin many "days of diesel" including driving from boston to orlando & back in my TDI.
Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah or other holidays, and a Happy Diesel New Year to you all, especially you zodiac sir!

ruking1

I just got back from a 600 mile R/T Highway 101 N/S from the San Jose area to Santa Barbara, CA. It was overcast but the view and road conditions were simply superb. It was truly inspiring to go through one of the hearts of the USA's farmland and seeing the vast vineyards almost as far as the eye could see. There was traffic only in pockets. Covered the leg down 300 miles in 3.75 hrs with a .25 hour potty and stretch break or 3.5 hours of travel time. I didn't care to fuel and came back. My low fuel light went on when I pulled into the garage. So my mpg swag is 600 miles/12 gal. or 50 mpg.

blufz1

His post is wrong! he states a difference of 1300 rpms at the same speed for a gasser and a diesel. You think that is right?

gagrice

we'll see if the dude i'm nitpicking now can take the intense pressure... here goes:
the current 1.9 VW TDIs specs are neither 90hp nor 155ftlbs - they are 100 hp and 177 ftlbs. woo hoo!

Not sure who you are nitpicking this time. If it was my reference to the TDI having 247 Ft Lbs of torque. I stand by the statement. Better do some research on my reference.

qbrozen

yes.
Maybe not those EXACT numbers. I don't know. I don't own the Camry, so I don't know what it churns at.
But, as several people have already stated, diesels are engineered to run at lower RPMs. Now, keep in mind, NOBODY said the diesel and gasser in the example are running the same gearing.

What do YOU think is correct? Do you think a diesel with a redline at 3500 rpms can't travel at the same top speed as a gasser with a 6k rpm limit? Because it sounds to me like this is what you believe. If you mean something else, please explain.

ruking1

Fill up today was 50.847457 mpg. Would I be overstating it by saying 51 mpg?

ruking1

Not only do I sense that you are truly satified, but I am sure others would join me in saying I/we are happy for you! The disconnect of course is that product is NOT available here in the USA market. Indeed if you were to try to get that product into the country, not even bribes would work.

Indeed I know the procedure/s to put the "teeth" back into the USA markets VW TDI motor. Part of it is a simple case of R/R with the Euro injectors (replace the .184's with upwards of .201's) cost, app 200-300 dollars US.

elias

hi gagrice. nah, i wasn't nitpicking you, i was nitpicking someone who quoted 90hp/155ftlb for the current USA VW TDIs. (Passat TDI is not current). maybe i misunderstood - maybe that person was talking about the 2003s & earlier, for which 90&155 are the right specs.
as for the 247ftlbs & passat TDI, of course you are right on - i put about 40k miles on my 05 passat TDI before it got $6K damage via a hailstorm - and I *greatly enjoyed* the 247ftlbs. Also I greatly enjoyed the STUPENDOUS pre-ULSD soot clouds that car could emit onto the worst tailgators by my very gently/gradually slowing down and then flooring it back up to 79.9 mph or whatever speed the car in front of me in left lane is doing. (I am a stickler for lane-discipline - I always move right if either middle/right lanes are clear.)

blufz1

No! Both you, qbrozen and gagrice in his post 148, are wrong! Gagrice said a gasser and a diesel would be turning 2800 and 1300 rpms respectively running side by side. That is wrong! The diesel is turning only 300 to 500 rpms less than the gasser at the same speed! I was hoping to learn something here. Now it turns out I know more than most of you!

larsb

OK !! Sorry to disappoint you !! I guess you'd be better off taking your superior knowledge elsewhere !!

ruking1

Sorry to hear about your NON diesel $6,000 damage to your diesel!

To my mind "GOOD" lane displine really aids in the "sharing of the road process"! It can be infinitely safer also! It makes what can sometimes be an ordeal,.... FUN !!! I'd share the road with you !

elias

thank you, ru-lizard-king! on the bright side, the $6k insurance payout helped me sell 05 passat TDI to a close friend for a bargain price, and then buy myself an 06.5 jetta TDI 5-spd instead. my friend flew to beantown from portland and the next day drove west in his dimpled passat TDI - he & his family are very happy with it. i doubt he used as excellent lane-discipline as me & you or that new superior know-it-all dude who is too smart for us all, but hey, you can't have everything.
for my portland pal, now every day is the day of the diesel!!

blufz1

Sorry to threaten your ignorance but I'm having too much fun to leave. Everyone needs come comedy relief!LOL.

hypnosis44

Does anyone have a list of diesel cars available in the us as of Jan 2007?

blufz1

I'm waiting for the Honda diesels which should be here by 2009 at the latest

ruking1

I have to say I was inspired by one of posts Larsb linked on the diesel twin turbo sports rig.!!

Corvette purists would probably protest and riot and wax "say it ain't so, Joe"; but the above in a Corvette would be an absolute hit!!! (for my .04 cents anyway. Amazing a (gasser) Z06 gets 26 mpg with the AC blasting at close to xxx speeds! It would be more than hard to believe 48 mpg on the RACE (track) course and 70 mpg at a steady 62 mph(?) WOW! Another wow, boost when you demand it and BOOST when you DEMAND IT. Torque, torque, torque!! WOW!! With an 18.5 gal capacity we are talking a range of 1260 miles, with 35 miles till MT!!!! You can literally get across the USA with a min of two tankfulls !!!!

qbrozen

just what the heck are you talking about??

what diesel are you referring to? ANY diesel? A Jetta TDI stick? Jetta TDI auto? Beetle TDI? Because, I got news for you, no 2 vehicles are the same! shocker, i know.

second ... now you are saying the diesel runs at lower rpms. That's exactly what I said ... so how is it I'm wrong again?

when you originally said gagrice was wrong, you made no mention of numbers at all. You said he was wrong to state a diesel runs lower rpms. So it seems to me you have now done your homework and are trying to save face.

blufz1

I'm talking about your statement in your post 148 stating a camry is turning 2800 rpms vs. a diesel running side by side turning 1500 rpms. I pointed out the difference in rpms would be much less. 300-500 rpms less for the diesel. Not 1300rpms less. That's not so hard to understand. Is it?

british_rover

It depends on how the two cars are geared.

It makes sense that the diesel should be geared so that it turns lowere rpms at higher speeds since that is where its torque peak is.

For example my MINI cooper S turned about 3,000 RPMs at about 70 MPH because of its close ratio 6 speed gear box.

My old pontiac was barely turning 2,000 rpms at the same speed.

The big 3800 V6 in that car had tons more torque at low rpms then the little SC 1.6 liter in the MINI. The HP of those two cars was about the same though.

qbrozen

No, its not clear, because i never made any such statement. Post 148 is from gagrice, not me. In response to 148, YOU said being a diesel has nothing to do with running at lower rpms. Several people, including myself, pointed out that diesels DO run at lower rpms thanks to the gearing that they are able to run. It sounds to me like you now agree with that fact. The numbers are irrelevant because I never once argued those to be true.