Well no, if the consequences of the barrel of oil ratios are apparent. If the consequences of the barrel of oil ratios are NOT apparent, then think of how many/much less barrels of oil you would have to import IF the passenger vehicle fleet were indeed 23% DIESEL (and more)?? Again the fastest way to see it is using the ratio's. A hint is Europe is importing far less oil even as the passenger vehicle fleet is close to the size of ours. Another is the passenger vehicle fleet is 50% diesel and growing !!
Simple answer to why WE ALL are not driving high mileage diesels: LACK OF DEMAND.
..." Does a gallon of bio-diesel have the same BTU value as a gallon of diesel made from crude oil? " ...
Not quite, it is 1 to 1.1. However due to the operation of newer diesels there is a 50/50 chance the smoother operation and a higher cetane product cancels out the lower BTU count.
you lost me. Can refiners alter the yields from a barrel of oil to make more diesel and less gasoline? According to an earlier post, gasoline was once dumped as a useless by-product.
I am not sure where the confusion lies. The yields more or less are as stated.
There is also the issue of more expensive and less plentiful light sweet crude vs other than light sweet crude, which is 30-40% cheaper and much more plentiful. More of the diesel products come from other than light sweet crude.
Not to confuse. There is pretty much a fixed amount of the different products in a barrel of crude oil. As Ruking stated not all crude is created equal. With all the cutting back on sulfur in both gas and diesel it makes oil from places like Iran less than desirable. The lighter and sweeter the crude the better. While working in the Arctic oil fields they hit some wells that had such light crude it would run in the diesel engines right out of the well.
An example of your question is the EU. As they go more to diesel engine cars they are getting a surplus of gasoline in their refining. We are the recipients of that gas. You will see where we are getting a quite a bit of refined gas from the EU. Will we experience the same situation if we start going more to diesel cars? We could feasibly do that and make diesel less plentiful than gas.
Mercedes-Benz to Offer BLUETEC for 50 US-States in 2008 MBUSA announced three Bluetec SUVs for calender year 2008. The ML320 Bluetec, R320 Bluetec and GL320 Bluetec are thus expected before December 31, 2008, up to two years after the CDI versions of these models appear. The clean E320 Bluetec debuts next month and is certified to Tier 2 Bin 8, the first and so far only diesel in this category. 9/25/2006
Mercedes Bluetec turbodiesel SUVs eligible for clean diesel tax credit The ML320 Bluetec, R320 Bluetec and GL320 Bluetec seem to qualify for a clean diesel tax credit of up to $3400 since they comply with Bin 5 starting in calender year 2008. They are not yet listed in this table. Tax regulations usually dont lack in complexity... http://www.aceee.org/transportation/taxcredits06.pdf
Refiners can alter the yields of different products from a barrel of oil. Thus, by altering temperatures / pressures/ catalysts a refiner can squeeze more gasoline or diesel fuel from a barrel of oil.
exactly! Regardless of how we feel about our personal milage or how tempting diesel milage looks on paper or how dramatically the R&D has civilized the diesel engine, my math suggests it would require more barrels of oil (even at the higher milage) than it takes using gasoline to run a national vehicle fleet. Otherwise, it would be a no-brainer for the powers-that-be to mandate a shift to diesel, increase the CAFE standards up 35%, and make everyone happy considering how user-friendly these vehicles have become. Is it the "day of the diesel"? Not until they figure out how to change the yields of a barrel of oil or they find something useful to do with all the gasoline by-product of making petroleum based diesel or bio-diesel makes economic sense. My 2cents.
it would be a no-brainer for the powers-that-be to mandate a shift to diesel
That would be the case if the powers that be and have been for over 100 years were not in the oil companies debt. I do not know of an industry that carries the clout in Congress that oil does. Otherwise, why did it take 30 years longer to clean up diesel than it did gasoline?
As you say it is a balancing act on getting the most out of a barrel of oil. Most diesel in the us goes for heavy transportation, airlines, heavy equipment, trains, buses, ships & agriculture. From the way the market seems to go with diesel more expensive in the winter because of its use as heating oil, leads me to believe that we are using diesel at a near optimum level. Switching our automobiles en masse to diesel would cause a glut of gas as we are seeing right now due to heavy production of heating oil.
"Not until they figure out how to change the yields of a barrel of oil or they find something useful to do with all the gasoline by-product of making petroleum based diesel or bio-diesel makes economic sense. My 2cents. "
The political clout of "so called less mitigated diesel vs more mitigated unleaded regular is truly political and economic in nature. Indeed we could process the 30-40% less expensive "other than light sweet crude" if the diesel population were higher, rather than the more expensive and less available "light sweet crude".
I am not sure what math you are following, but I think your quoted assumption might be in question. First yes you can vary the yield a bit for the purposes of this discussion gasoline vs diesel. 2. If what you are suggesting is they have to be able to do all unleaded regular and/or diesel from say one barrel of oil, that is a very unrealistic short term assumption in that it has not happened technologically.
So as an example; a tale of two fuels, in a 2003 VW Jetta 1.8 TT @ 31 mpg vs TDI at 49 mpg. Given 90,000 miles, the gasser uses 2903 gal, the diesel uses 1837 gal. Pretty easy to see which uses more gals? Further, suppose you run each side by side and do 180,000 miles. Would you import or process more or less oil with 2 gassers or one gasser and one diesel?
However I do agree the logistical systems are set up for (the purposes of discussion of the passenger vehicle fleet) for upwards of 97% of the fleet running unleaded regular/premium and less than 3% diesel. It would not be wise for them to say produce 5% when 3% will do and have to find some discount outlet for the 2% overage!!??
Otherwise, why did it take 30 years longer to clean up diesel than it did gasoline?
Couple of answers here. Diesel powered vehicles (cars,trucks, semis) have been a tiny part of the automotive population when compared to the large number of gassers so EPA focused on the larger population first to get that cleaned up. Now that they have finished that, it is time to focus on diesels which in some respects is easier to clean-up than gassers as two of the emissions unburned HC and CO are non-existent in diesel exhaust. PM is now a non-issue and the NOx issue is close to if not a resolved issue too.
Retrofitting older diesel equipment will not be cheap but it will be cheaper than buying new equipment and it will end up just as clean as new equipment.
The issue with the price of diesel is not only the competition with home heating oil, but with the EU where the majority of cars/trucks use diesel. Jet fuel is a different and lighter distillate more closely related to kerosene than #2 diesel fuel.
Now that congress has changed hands, I think you will see more diesel and support for lower prices of diesel fuel to encourage reductions in importation of oil from not so friendly countries.
"Otherwise, why did it take 30 years longer to clean up diesel than it did gasoline?"
Directly, the decision was made to clean one and not the other!! I have gone on record saying this is one of the most egregious strategic mistakes.
Easy question? Would you rather sell 37% more product? If so, sell gasoline.
Would you rather sell 37% LESS product? Push diesel.
Well even the so called "robber barons" of the early age of cars understood at some level they wanted to ride the "gasoline wave" so to speak and as long as it was so called "throw away item" WOO HOO!!! It powers this transportation vehicle!! ??
once we have 50-state diesels up and running, I wouldn't mind seeing all vehicles with a GVWR so high that they are exempt from EPA fuel economy testing be required to use diesel engines.
TALK about a huge reduction in greenhouse gas emissions!
I know such a mandate would apply to most full-size pick-ups except the very most base versions. I wonder if it would apply to the full-size truck-based SUVs as well?
In addition, it would be nice if anything else labelled a "truck" rather than a "car" for CAFE purposes and assessed a gas guzzler tax were required to switch to all diesel engines.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My take is given the diesel options in each and across the segment lines, the markets will take care of themselves. Almost ALL segments would benefit from a diesel/s option: from the American heavier p/u truck diesel market to the smallest economy car.
I would also think it would be no different from the gasser 4/6/8/10 normally aspirated, turbo, multiple turbo options (and others of course). An interesting example are the mutilple diesel options on the VW Touareg. In the USA market the diesel option is the monster V-10. Europe offers at least 2 other diesel motor options (V6)
Of course it has had it benefits and disadvantages. When I was researching buying my VW TDI for example. EPA was 24/31 gasser vs 42/49 diesel. One could get both gasser and diesel for the Edmunds.com goal at invoice (plus) There literally was little premium ($150?) over the gasser 1.8 T. So over a year's time of 15,000 miles (upper end) of the average, US driver, the fuel savings was (31/49 mpg, 484 gal-306 gal= )178 gal or 37%. So if the (TOTAL) passenger vehicle fleet could save 37%, isn't that (importing less foreign oil) one of the stated goals?
While I am NO expert, and this list is only for example (for example ) diesel and/or biodiesel can be gotten from so many other sources and processes from: to be developed and shows promise to existing ongoing processes that indeed it has and has had the potential to create many more source streams, than unleaded regular can even hope.
diesel
1. % of a barrel of oil 2. from coal gasification (even according to Sierra Club estimates the USA are literally the Saudi Arabia of coal with estimates of 200-500 year supply at current oil rate world consumption.) 3. crops such as rape seed, soybeans, etc etc 4. ongoing farm processes' 5. TBD farm processes' 6. ongoing industrial processes' 7. TBD industrial processes' 8. farm waste processes' 9. industrial waste processes' 10. dump waste streams (aka land fill) 11. reprocess of waste materials; such as used fryer oils obviously from those places that use fryer oils?. 12. if indeed waste stream mitigation is REALLY an environmental priority, ANY existing and more importantly any NEW processes (farm, industry, technology, waste) can be run threw industrial engineering feasibility studies for adaptability for the energy nexus.
Hi all, new guy here from the U.K. Yesterday morning I was talking to a local taxi driver about his new Skoda Octavia, (built on new VW Golf platform). He mentioned that he had kept his previous Skoda Octavia, (with the VW/Audi 1.9TDi engine), as his wife's run-around car 'cos it wasn't worth much as a trade-in. It has done 416,000 miles in 4+ years without a breakdown or any replacements other than service items. This is the rule rather than just an exception. At 36,000 miles my Skoda Fabia diesel is just getting better all the time and 50+mpg, (Imperial Gallon), is the norm.
Diesels really are the future and as USA gets cleaner diesel fuels I would expect to see their numbers grow.
Since my 2003 VW Jetta (with the VW/Audi 1.9TDi) engine only has 83,000 miles, I am very glad reading about a (like) diesel going 416,000 miles. Since the UK is NOT a very big contiguous part of continental Europe, those 416,000 miles must surely be very TOUGH miles.
Tough miles, indeed. The car was used for taxi, (cab), work so no long runs; all stop/start and short run stuff. The guy's new Octavia TDi had already covered 17,000 miles in it's first 5 weeks. A hard life for any car.
I'm not aware of any hybrid taxi's - certainly not in my area; but there may be around London. It's unlikely, though, as the choice is pretty much Prius, Lexus RX400H or Honda IMA, none of which really fits into the taxi role, (and I can't recall actually seeing a real, live Honda hybrid on the road). Diesels are far and away the preferred engines for Taxi's. Long life and good economy are the key requirements.
The 416k Octavia wasn't my car, just belonged to one of our local taxi guys I was talking to. But, yes, I guess his money was well spent. My own Skoda is a Fabia vRS; a small hatchback with the 1.9TDi/130bhp VW/Audi engine and a nice 6-speed manual. Pretty quick, very economical, (50+mpg), and a good fun drive. I'm a big fan of diesels..........hence my username. With our ULSD priced at circa $6.70 per USG, and UL Gasoline at around $6.40 per USG it's not a big contest. If our ULSD was around your gasoline price, $2 per USG (?), I would be looking at an Audi A8 with the 4.2 V8 Tdi. Now that really is All Torque.
FYI newcomers - the "regulars" around here know this already:
there are a LOT of hybrid taxis in fleets around the USA and Canada. One particularly famous Prius taxi was used up to 200,000 miles and then Toyota bought it to evaluate the hybrid systems and batteries:
Andrew Grant is the world's first hybrid taxi driver. He introduced his Prius taxi to the not-so-mean streets of Vancouver in 2000, and logged 200,000 miles in just 25 months. Andrew's Prius was snatched by Toyota. The automaker wanted a chance to study the durability of the hybrid batteries and other components, which held up amazingly well. He's now driving his third Prius.
There are hybrid taxi fleets in New York City, San Francisco, Boston, San Antonio, at least one in London, and Chicago is evaluating the issue.
A very simple, no there are no known specimens of Prius Hybrids that have gone 416,000 miles, would suffice,
FYI for those that should know this already; the operative question and issue were
1. 416,000 miles on a TDI diesel vs 416,000 miles on Prius
1b. DIESEL vs HYBRID TAXI's:
1c. NOT 200,000 miles on a Prius hybrid vs 416,000 miles on a VW Skoda (Jetta Golf New Beetle) 1.9 T TDI.
The issue was not about whether or not Prius were ever part of a taxi fleet. If you frame it that way based on item 1c., may I suggest a re read of the threads.
It is rather moot, on the 416,000 miles hybrid issue, if someone so called "yanks a Prius" out of service at 200k miles and simultaneously leaves the inference that it could da, woulda, shoulda be a con ten da for 416,000 miles!!??
Some would list the turbo portion as two or 1 b. so I would leave it open to discussion.
While I surmise the 1.5 L gasser engine can/will still function despite the (hybrid) batteries going down, I am not sure in the real world what THAT scenario would do to its over all longevity and/or reliability. In the hands of its customers, 216,000 miles PAST 200,000 miles STILL appears to be uncharted real world territory,
there will be MANY Priuses that exceed 416,000 miles,
I seriously doubt that. Of the 966 Prius II zealots reporting their mileage, NONE have even reached 100k miles. Of the Prius Classics reporting 3 have made it to 100k miles. So out of 1 million hybrids that Toyota has built we have ONE that hit 200k miles and Toyota was so surprised they bought it back to evaluate it.
Hybrids have a long way to go yet to prove reliable longevity. Mercedes proved that diesels were the answer to longevity decades ago. Many of the early ones brought to this country are still on the road. 416k miles is not uncommon for a diesel vehicle.
Sprinter drives 22 times around the world without repair Klaus Schade drove his newspaper courier Sprinter 900,000 km without repairs in the 10 years he owned it. Only regular maintenance was necessary, of course. That's 559,234 miles, the equivalent of driving 22 times around the world. Since the introduction in 1995 more than one million Sprinters were sold while also receiving multiple "Transporter of the Year" awards. (from MB press release) 12/22/2005
Some very interesting posts; such a nice change from the "diesels are cr*p' mentalty on some other forums. As for the UK Skoda Octavia TDi taxi...............as reported, it has now ceased taxi work at 416,000 miles but is still in daily use as a school-run/shopping/etc car, so who knows at what mileage it will finally expire - assuming it ever does. From talking to Skoda dealers it seems that this is not just a "one off" and even the owner didn't seem to think it was worth shouting about. As gagrice points out; diesels are already known to be long-lifers. As these same engines go into VW, Audi, SEAT and Skoda cars, plus a range of commercials, I would be surprised if similar, or better, examples didn't exist in each of those marques, plus DB and doubtless others.
As for hybrids ? Early days yet compared to the time that diesels have been around so we'll just have to wait and see. Let's not write them off just yet. For me, however, I'll probably stick with TDi's, (unless I get seduced by a second-hand Jaguar XJ8 and find out just how much car ownership can cost). Decisions, decisions.
What I said Gary was "there will be MANY Priuses that exceed 416,000 miles. Just give them TIME."
What you are basically saying Gary is "they have not done it YET, therefore they must be incapable of doing so."
It takes a WHILE to put 416,000 miles on a vehicle. Even at 1000 miles a WEEK which is a huge amount of driving, 416 weeks is 8 years. There are Japanese Priuses which have been on the road for 8 years but none elsewhere.
Here is the highest mileage Prius I can locate, which is STILL ON THE ROAD in Canada:
North America's Highest Mileage Hybrid Taxis Consumers often have concerns about new vehicle technologies, especially about features that may be costly to repair, such as a hybrid system. Canada’s highest mileage Prius, a 2001 model, has operated for over 410,000 kilometres with only a few maintenance repair issues. Jatinder Parhar, owner of a Empress Taxi in Victoria, British Columbia, still operates this vehicle.
410,000 kilometers translates to 254,762 miles. That's a good chunk of miles, and that's about 5-6 years of operating as a taxi.
No one is saying that Hybrids will beat the "million miles" record that some diesel cars have achieved. But 416,000 miles will be done, and likely many times, by various hybrid cars and trucks and buses, over the next decade or so.
Attached is self-explanatory. Makes interesting reading - rather like one of those coffee table books that you never actually read all the way through but dip into from time to time. Some of the supposedly "Prestige" marques fare pretty poorly according to their owners. I'll post it elsewhere in a more general category, also.
If I can put some numbers to this. (as the anti diesel, burn unleaded regular, and or alternative fuels folks seem to have an aversion here) Let me use the
2003 Jetta TDI epa of 42/49 mpg
2003 Jetta 1.8T epa of 24/31 mpg
It is widely known that ethanol (E85) gets app 25% LESS mpg. So using the above 1.8T, let me SWAG
the projected mpg :
18/23.25 mpg.
Are there any anti diesel folks that see some possible consequences here?
Honda (Civic) of course has a pretty full complement of vehicles for the various fuels: 1. natural gas 2. unleaded regular 3. gas/hybrid 4. hydrogen, 5. diesel They probably have one in the works for E85 also.
There are Japanese Priuses which have been on the road for 8 years but none elsewhere.
My understanding is it is hard to find a vehicle in Japan with 100k miles on it. They don't drive like we do. I can tell you as soon as I sell this GMC Hybrid, I am going to buy any older diesel PU truck. I just don't like anything new that is coming out. Our new trucks in Prudhoe were in the shop more than on the road. It was all smog related sensors clogging up. Give me an old simple rig to drive. I don't need all the electronic wizardry to get me where I am going and back. Ruking has the right idea with his VW TDI. Keep it till the wheels fall off. Buying new is for those with more money than brains. I include myself as one.
..."There are Japanese Priuses which have been on the road for 8 years but none elsewhere.
My understanding is it is hard to find a vehicle in Japan with 100k miles on it"...
Yes, this might be the most interesting thing about Japanese cars in Japan. While I don't know this to be true/false on a practical basis, I have read a lot in passing, that the upshot is a so called "new car" is ready for the salvage yard at 50,000 miles !! This of course is quite ridiculous from (many points of view) economic, equipment and emissions test points of view, but hey, I understand they do a brisk business in "used" 50k or less engines and transmissions.
From a life cycle point of view this might explain why consumable parts, i.e., oem tires are not specified and or last much past 50,000 miles. This of course combined with other factors, makes the operational cost per mile astronomically, or to be more "down to earth", expotentially higher. So the concept of a 500,000 mile-1,125,000 miles diesel motor @ 50,000 mile salvage= 10-23 CARS!! While a lot of folks might disagree, in comparison to the diesel "throw away" comes to mind (for the Japanese gasser product).
I am fueling my Jetta diesel on a combination of biodiesel( from 2 sources) , ULSD, and some left over frying oil that I blend into the diesel /biodiesel . I love it.
Ruking and Gagrice knows me from the SUV crowd...and I still have my 2 SUVs....and love them for the family trips....
but my commuter Jetta is doing great so far.....I bought it with 109,000 miles , and they tell me that the engine was just broken in not too long ago. Many say that the engine , with proper maintenance of oil changes mainly, will last over 300,000 miles conservatively...maybe even 500,000 miles.
I think that Pruis's are nice....and would have gotten one if they were the answer to using renewable resources and decreasing one's ecological footprint, but for me, the diesels fill the bill.
I think a Prius that goes for 250,000 miles, though commendable, is not the norm.... I think most people will not argue this fact. DIesels, on the other hand, routinely go for hundreds of thousands of miles....
That is the life cycle of 2 or 3 vehicles...so it saves the need for new cars and all the concommitent resources needed for the newer gasser vehicles. ( I have 3 gassers )
I would buy a diesel Cayenne or Diesel minivan, if one were available ......
YOu are correct, Rukes. IT would seem like my much beloved Pruis would have to vault 3 obstacles to reach 400,000 miles
Hybrid drive system could last a long time, but it is an unknown. The engineers were having a bad time getting it to work in the first place...the thing would just go 100 ft, and stop, since it could not decide on which engine to use. It could also breakdown early, since in town driving on the electric system alone puts much/a lot of stress on the engine....
The batteries are a known quantity...they last at best 7 to 8 years..then would need complete change of new batteries , at a significant cost. + $3000 ?
The 1.5 liter gas engine could last long, but typically, these small, thin- walled engines, when called upon for heavy duty, do not normally perform that well for long. 150,000 would be alot for a small gasser asked to haul so much weight, granted the hybrid drive does help during the stop and go phases.
Regarding the turbo in the TDI Jetta: Some would list the turbo portion as two or 1 b. so I would leave it open to discussion.
I agree. THe jetta turbo diesel has as its main weak point, the turbo, which if one lugs the engine at 1000 rpm or steps hard when the engine is cold, would decrease its lifespan.
The proper thing to do is to wait for the TDI engines to warm up, then use the turbo. THe engines produce max torque at only 1800 rpm....so no need to lug it around at 1000 rpm or scorch the engine at 5000 rpm. SOme people advise to not switch off the engine once you reach your destination, but wait a few seconds to let the turbo cool down.
TDI engines , like most diesel engines, have a thick iron wall...and will not crack as easy as the gassers. The engines operate on high compression, therefore the thick block...but overall the engine runs at a lower temperature and lower rpm than a gasser engine, so that there are relatively lower stresses. Therefore, diesel engines generally last longer...and have less parts to wear out.
NO need to warm up by idling the TDI engine, it will not warm up on idling alone...the car runs so efficiently that at idle the engine stays cool....Just turn on , and drive calmly for the first 2 miles...
While I surmise the 1.5 L gasser engine can/will still function despite the (hybrid) batteries going down, I am not sure in the real world what THAT scenario would do to its over all longevity and/or reliability. In the hands of its customers, 216,000 miles PAST 200,000 miles STILL appears to be uncharted real world territory,
I also would not know, but I would surmise that with the hybrid electric engine/batteries gone, the increased stresses that was originally shared by 2 engines, would all fall onto one engine...with the resulting engine life decreasing due to this increase in stresses...but that is only my guess, using common sense.
Yes, I think you have a good understanding of what has to be done across each variant. Each of the variants: gasser, gasser/hybrid, and diesel, turbo diesel needs to be driven (sometimes at cross purposes, within design parameters) to fulfill objectives. (at times can be complex). So for example, I DO NOT drive the TDI like I would (imagine) a hybrid. Surely I do not drive the TDI like the Honda Civic gasser. Since gassers are the majority of most folks experiences, that usually serves as the point of departure for those venturing out to the hybrid and/or TDI, etc, etc,. In your case, you do it all for you have a sample of each.
The biggest advantage you two have with the TDI is while you are cruising at 1500 RPMs the guy next to you in his Camry 4 cylinder is turning about 2800 RPM. The hybrids from what I hear spend a lot of time up close to 5000 RPM. Just the simple math tells you that the TDI longevity is at least 40% better with less cycles of the engine. Plus as has been pointed out the heavier block used in a diesel engine. Probably one reason that automakers are fighting to avoid selling diesel cars. They last longer. Not good with the throwaway mentality in this country.
The Camry in the above example is working app 46% faster than the TDI to achieve the same (OBJECTIVE) result (say) 65 mph. (I don't know the exact speeds off the top of my head). Indeed I know that at app 2800 to 3000 RPMS, it is pushing 90-95 mph, and getting 48-50 mpg. Don't ask me how I know this.
When you combine this with the fact that the diesel is built much sturdier, (one reason being much higher compression) the durability is much longer.
Indeed it was about as hard as looking for a needle in a haystack to dig out the design parameter of 25,000 hours for the Jetta TDI. I have yet to find the design parameters for ANY GASSER, let alone the TDI's gasser competitor. So if anyone would care to share?....
HEy...I agree with you..Gagrice...and like rukes said: Excellent way of putting it...
I never thought about it that way....opened my vistas a little...
The gasser engine works a little harder than the diesel.
Back to IDLSUVWDY >>>. I remember adp3, sailor and other saying that insurance prices does not mean a thing. Well, I have a suburban and a VW Jetta TDI....and we are drivers for both cars, same registration address, same for all other factors, except the vehicles are different...
IT cost over $300 more to insure the Jetta, compared to the suburban....so much difference that the agent suggested that we list the suburban as the everyday commuting driver, instead of the Jetta TDI. Obviously, she was very nice..and wanted to save us money.. but also obvious is the fact that I really use the Jetta for commuting, and suburban for weekends.....
As it relates to diesel and the "IDLSUV'sWDY?" thread, cheaper insurance is another good reason why I would want a diesel SUV that gets 25-35 mpg. It is also true that my SUV's are cheaper to insure than my so called "economy" cars. 300 might not be much year to year, but if we project that out to 10-15-20 years that 300 becomes a min of 3000 to 6000 more. To boot I would have to run one less car, which would further drop the total yearly expenditure. Based on the math for a gasser SUV, I would need 45 mpg for a cost effective switch (diesel Jetta does 50 mpg) In the case of the (hypothetical) diesel (25-35 mpg)that figure rises to a car that would get 75-105 mpg. [parenthetically there are some "economy cars" that get less than 25-35 mpg]I sure folks would agree those are very high bars.
I am going to change my oil and fuel filters soon...
I love the diesels....you drive for a long time before you need to fill up....I used to fill up every 6 days, but now I do it every 15 days....and with less gallons , so it is much cheaper...
I plan on keeping this diesel car til the end...wonder where or when that will be ??? it has only....ONLY 110,000 miles ....... so if it were a gasser, we are talking about old age, at least past middle age....for a samller car.. but as a diesel, I will report here on the gas mileage and odometer mileage....
Comments
Simple answer to why WE ALL are not driving high mileage diesels: LACK OF DEMAND.
..." Does a gallon of bio-diesel have the same BTU value as a gallon of diesel made from crude oil? " ...
Not quite, it is 1 to 1.1. However due to the operation of newer diesels there is a 50/50 chance the smoother operation and a higher cetane product cancels out the lower BTU count.
There is also the issue of more expensive and less plentiful light sweet crude vs other than light sweet crude, which is 30-40% cheaper and much more plentiful. More of the diesel products come from other than light sweet crude.
An example of your question is the EU. As they go more to diesel engine cars they are getting a surplus of gasoline in their refining. We are the recipients of that gas. You will see where we are getting a quite a bit of refined gas from the EU. Will we experience the same situation if we start going more to diesel cars? We could feasibly do that and make diesel less plentiful than gas.
Mercedes-Benz to Offer BLUETEC for 50 US-States in 2008
MBUSA announced three Bluetec SUVs for calender year 2008. The ML320 Bluetec, R320 Bluetec and GL320 Bluetec are thus expected before December 31, 2008, up to two years after the CDI versions of these models appear. The clean E320 Bluetec debuts next month and is certified to Tier 2 Bin 8, the first and so far only diesel in this category.
9/25/2006
Mercedes Bluetec turbodiesel SUVs eligible for clean diesel tax credit
The ML320 Bluetec, R320 Bluetec and GL320 Bluetec seem to qualify for a clean diesel tax credit of up to $3400 since they comply with Bin 5 starting in calender year 2008. They are not yet listed in this table. Tax regulations usually dont lack in complexity...
http://www.aceee.org/transportation/taxcredits06.pdf
Is it the "day of the diesel"? Not until they figure out how to change the yields of a barrel of oil or they find something useful to do with all the gasoline by-product of making petroleum based diesel or bio-diesel makes economic sense. My 2cents.
That would be the case if the powers that be and have been for over 100 years were not in the oil companies debt. I do not know of an industry that carries the clout in Congress that oil does. Otherwise, why did it take 30 years longer to clean up diesel than it did gasoline?
As you say it is a balancing act on getting the most out of a barrel of oil. Most diesel in the us goes for heavy transportation, airlines, heavy equipment, trains, buses, ships & agriculture. From the way the market seems to go with diesel more expensive in the winter because of its use as heating oil, leads me to believe that we are using diesel at a near optimum level. Switching our automobiles en masse to diesel would cause a glut of gas as we are seeing right now due to heavy production of heating oil.
The political clout of "so called less mitigated diesel vs more mitigated unleaded regular is truly political and economic in nature. Indeed we could process the 30-40% less expensive "other than light sweet crude" if the diesel population were higher, rather than the more expensive and less available "light sweet crude".
I am not sure what math you are following, but I think your quoted assumption might be in question. First yes you can vary the yield a bit for the purposes of this discussion gasoline vs diesel. 2. If what you are suggesting is they have to be able to do all unleaded regular and/or diesel from say one barrel of oil, that is a very unrealistic short term assumption in that it has not happened technologically.
So as an example; a tale of two fuels, in a 2003 VW Jetta 1.8 TT @ 31 mpg vs TDI at 49 mpg. Given 90,000 miles, the gasser uses 2903 gal, the diesel uses 1837 gal. Pretty easy to see which uses more gals? Further, suppose you run each side by side and do 180,000 miles. Would you import or process more or less oil with 2 gassers or one gasser and one diesel?
However I do agree the logistical systems are set up for (the purposes of discussion of the passenger vehicle fleet) for upwards of 97% of the fleet running unleaded regular/premium and less than 3% diesel. It would not be wise for them to say produce 5% when 3% will do and have to find some discount outlet for the 2% overage!!??
Couple of answers here. Diesel powered vehicles (cars,trucks, semis) have been a tiny part of the automotive population when compared to the large number of gassers so EPA focused on the larger population first to get that cleaned up. Now that they have finished that, it is time to focus on diesels which in some respects is easier to clean-up than gassers as two of the emissions unburned HC and CO are non-existent in diesel exhaust. PM is now a non-issue and the NOx issue is close to if not a resolved issue too.
Retrofitting older diesel equipment will not be cheap but it will be cheaper than buying new equipment and it will end up just as clean as new equipment.
The issue with the price of diesel is not only the competition with home heating oil, but with the EU where the majority of cars/trucks use diesel. Jet fuel is a different and lighter distillate more closely related to kerosene than #2 diesel fuel.
Now that congress has changed hands, I think you will see more diesel and support for lower prices of diesel fuel to encourage reductions in importation of oil from not so friendly countries.
Directly, the decision was made to clean one and not the other!! I have gone on record saying this is one of the most egregious strategic mistakes.
Easy question? Would you rather sell 37% more product? If so, sell gasoline.
Would you rather sell 37% LESS product? Push diesel.
Well even the so called "robber barons" of the early age of cars understood at some level they wanted to ride the "gasoline wave" so to speak and as long as it was so called "throw away item" WOO HOO!!! It powers this transportation vehicle!! ??
TALK about a huge reduction in greenhouse gas emissions!
I know such a mandate would apply to most full-size pick-ups except the very most base versions. I wonder if it would apply to the full-size truck-based SUVs as well?
In addition, it would be nice if anything else labelled a "truck" rather than a "car" for CAFE purposes and assessed a gas guzzler tax were required to switch to all diesel engines.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I would also think it would be no different from the gasser 4/6/8/10 normally aspirated, turbo, multiple turbo options (and others of course). An interesting example are the mutilple diesel options on the VW Touareg. In the USA market the diesel option is the monster V-10. Europe offers at least 2 other diesel motor options (V6)
Of course it has had it benefits and disadvantages. When I was researching buying my VW TDI for example. EPA was 24/31 gasser vs 42/49 diesel. One could get both gasser and diesel for the Edmunds.com goal at invoice (plus) There literally was little premium ($150?) over the gasser 1.8 T. So over a year's time of 15,000 miles (upper end) of the average, US driver, the fuel savings was (31/49 mpg, 484 gal-306 gal= )178 gal or 37%. So if the (TOTAL) passenger vehicle fleet could save 37%, isn't that (importing less foreign oil) one of the stated goals?
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061128/AUTO01/611280362/1148-
Rocky
2-powerhouses joining up. It looks like we will see some more clean diesels.
I agree!
Rocky
diesel
1. % of a barrel of oil
2. from coal gasification (even according to Sierra Club estimates the USA are literally the Saudi Arabia of coal with estimates of 200-500 year supply at current oil rate world consumption.)
3. crops such as rape seed, soybeans, etc etc
4. ongoing farm processes'
5. TBD farm processes'
6. ongoing industrial processes'
7. TBD industrial processes'
8. farm waste processes'
9. industrial waste processes'
10. dump waste streams (aka land fill)
11. reprocess of waste materials; such as used fryer oils obviously from those places that use fryer oils?.
12. if indeed waste stream mitigation is REALLY an environmental priority, ANY existing and more importantly any NEW processes (farm, industry, technology, waste) can be run threw industrial engineering feasibility studies for adaptability for the energy nexus.
Rocky
Rocky
Does by design have ANY meaning?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter
Diesels really are the future and as USA gets cleaner diesel fuels I would expect to see their numbers grow.
The 416k Octavia wasn't my car, just belonged to one of our local taxi guys I was talking to. But, yes, I guess his money was well spent. My own Skoda is a Fabia vRS; a small hatchback with the 1.9TDi/130bhp VW/Audi engine and a nice 6-speed manual. Pretty quick, very economical, (50+mpg), and a good fun drive. I'm a big fan of diesels..........hence my username. With our ULSD priced at circa $6.70 per USG, and UL Gasoline at around $6.40 per USG it's not a big contest.
there are a LOT of hybrid taxis in fleets around the USA and Canada. One particularly famous Prius taxi was used up to 200,000 miles and then Toyota bought it to evaluate the hybrid systems and batteries:
Andrew Grant is the world's first hybrid taxi driver. He introduced his Prius taxi to the not-so-mean streets of Vancouver in 2000, and logged 200,000 miles in just 25 months. Andrew's Prius was snatched by Toyota. The automaker wanted a chance to study the durability of the hybrid batteries and other components, which held up amazingly well. He's now driving his third Prius.
There are hybrid taxi fleets in New York City, San Francisco, Boston, San Antonio, at least one in London, and Chicago is evaluating the issue.
FYI for those that should know this already; the operative question and issue were
1. 416,000 miles on a TDI diesel vs 416,000 miles on Prius
1b. DIESEL vs HYBRID TAXI's:
1c. NOT 200,000 miles on a Prius hybrid vs 416,000 miles on a VW Skoda (Jetta Golf New Beetle) 1.9 T TDI.
The issue was not about whether or not Prius were ever part of a taxi fleet. If you frame it that way based on item 1c., may I suggest a re read of the threads.
It is rather moot, on the 416,000 miles hybrid issue, if someone so called "yanks a Prius" out of service at 200k miles and simultaneously leaves the inference that it could da, woulda, shoulda be a con ten da for 416,000 miles!!??
1. hybrid (drive) portion
2. batteries portion
3. 1.5 L gasser portion.
vs 1 gauntlet in the
1. 1.9T diesel portion.
Some would list the turbo portion as two or 1 b. so I would leave it open to discussion.
While I surmise the 1.5 L gasser engine can/will still function despite the (hybrid) batteries going down, I am not sure in the real world what THAT scenario would do to its over all longevity and/or reliability. In the hands of its customers, 216,000 miles PAST 200,000 miles STILL appears to be uncharted real world territory,
I seriously doubt that. Of the 966 Prius II zealots reporting their mileage, NONE have even reached 100k miles. Of the Prius Classics reporting 3 have made it to 100k miles. So out of 1 million hybrids that Toyota has built we have ONE that hit 200k miles and Toyota was so surprised they bought it back to evaluate it.
Hybrids have a long way to go yet to prove reliable longevity. Mercedes proved that diesels were the answer to longevity decades ago. Many of the early ones brought to this country are still on the road. 416k miles is not uncommon for a diesel vehicle.
Sprinter drives 22 times around the world without repair
Klaus Schade drove his newspaper courier Sprinter 900,000 km without repairs in the 10 years he owned it. Only regular maintenance was necessary, of course. That's 559,234 miles, the equivalent of driving 22 times around the world. Since the introduction in 1995 more than one million Sprinters were sold while also receiving multiple "Transporter of the Year" awards. (from MB press release)
12/22/2005
As for hybrids ? Early days yet compared to the time that diesels have been around so we'll just have to wait and see. Let's not write them off just yet. For me, however, I'll probably stick with TDi's, (unless I get seduced by a second-hand Jaguar XJ8 and find out just how much car ownership can cost). Decisions, decisions.
What you are basically saying Gary is "they have not done it YET, therefore they must be incapable of doing so."
It takes a WHILE to put 416,000 miles on a vehicle. Even at 1000 miles a WEEK which is a huge amount of driving, 416 weeks is 8 years. There are Japanese Priuses which have been on the road for 8 years but none elsewhere.
Here is the highest mileage Prius I can locate, which is STILL ON THE ROAD in Canada:
North America's Highest Mileage Hybrid Taxis
Consumers often have concerns about new vehicle technologies, especially about features that may be costly to repair, such as a hybrid system. Canada’s highest mileage Prius, a 2001 model, has operated for over 410,000 kilometres with only a few maintenance repair issues. Jatinder Parhar, owner of a Empress Taxi in Victoria, British Columbia, still operates this vehicle.
410,000 kilometers translates to 254,762 miles. That's a good chunk of miles, and that's about 5-6 years of operating as a taxi.
No one is saying that Hybrids will beat the "million miles" record that some diesel cars have achieved. But 416,000 miles will be done, and likely many times, by various hybrid cars and trucks and buses, over the next decade or so.
Mark my words amigos.....
Good/Bad thing to do?
Well if we mark your words that 255 k miled Prius might have 416,000 miles and that VW Skoda @ 416,000 miles will have 825,000 miles.
link title
Diesel has more energy than gas and can be made from many, MANY different sources.
Thus giving the consumer better fuel economy, less dependence on the middle east, and a cleaner environment.
So, what can we expect?
... ethanol, of course!
(What! You really think our government will ever encourage anything that makes sense?)
:P
2003 Jetta TDI epa of 42/49 mpg
2003 Jetta 1.8T epa of 24/31 mpg
It is widely known that ethanol (E85) gets app 25% LESS mpg. So using the above 1.8T, let me SWAG
the projected mpg :
18/23.25 mpg.
Are there any anti diesel folks that see some possible consequences here?
Honda (Civic) of course has a pretty full complement of vehicles for the various fuels: 1. natural gas 2. unleaded regular 3. gas/hybrid 4. hydrogen, 5. diesel
They probably have one in the works for E85 also.
My understanding is it is hard to find a vehicle in Japan with 100k miles on it. They don't drive like we do. I can tell you as soon as I sell this GMC Hybrid, I am going to buy any older diesel PU truck. I just don't like anything new that is coming out. Our new trucks in Prudhoe were in the shop more than on the road. It was all smog related sensors clogging up. Give me an old simple rig to drive. I don't need all the electronic wizardry to get me where I am going and back. Ruking has the right idea with his VW TDI. Keep it till the wheels fall off. Buying new is for those with more money than brains. I include myself as one.
My understanding is it is hard to find a vehicle in Japan with 100k miles on it"...
Yes, this might be the most interesting thing about Japanese cars in Japan. While I don't know this to be true/false on a practical basis, I have read a lot in passing, that the upshot is a so called "new car" is ready for the salvage yard at 50,000 miles !! This of course is quite ridiculous from (many points of view) economic, equipment and emissions test points of view, but hey, I understand they do a brisk business in "used" 50k or less engines and transmissions.
Just thought I'd drop in....
I am fueling my Jetta diesel on a combination of biodiesel( from 2 sources) , ULSD, and some left over frying oil that I blend into the diesel /biodiesel . I love it.
Ruking and Gagrice knows me from the SUV crowd...and I still have my 2 SUVs....and love them for the family trips....
but my commuter Jetta is doing great so far.....I bought it with 109,000 miles , and they tell me that the engine was just broken in not too long ago. Many say that the engine , with proper maintenance of oil changes mainly, will last over 300,000 miles conservatively...maybe even 500,000 miles.
I think that Pruis's are nice....and would have gotten one if they were the answer to using renewable resources and decreasing one's ecological footprint, but for me, the diesels fill the bill.
I think a Prius that goes for 250,000 miles, though commendable, is not the norm.... I think most people will not argue this fact. DIesels, on the other hand, routinely go for hundreds of thousands of miles....
That is the life cycle of 2 or 3 vehicles...so it saves the need for new cars and all the concommitent resources needed for the newer gasser vehicles. ( I have 3 gassers )
I would buy a diesel Cayenne or Diesel minivan, if one were available ......
thats my .02 cents....
1. hybrid (drive) portion
2. batteries portion
3. 1.5 L gasser portion.
vs 1 gauntlet in the
1. 1.9T diesel portion.
YOu are correct, Rukes. IT would seem like my much beloved Pruis would have to vault 3 obstacles to reach 400,000 miles
Hybrid drive system could last a long time, but it is an unknown. The engineers were having a bad time getting it to work in the first place...the thing would just go 100 ft, and stop, since it could not decide on which engine to use. It could also breakdown early, since in town driving on the electric system alone puts much/a lot of stress on the engine....
The batteries are a known quantity...they last at best 7 to 8 years..then would need complete change of new batteries , at a significant cost. + $3000 ?
The 1.5 liter gas engine could last long, but typically, these small, thin- walled engines, when called upon for heavy duty, do not normally perform that well for long. 150,000 would be alot for a small gasser asked to haul so much weight, granted the hybrid drive does help during the stop and go phases.
Regarding the turbo in the TDI Jetta:
Some would list the turbo portion as two or 1 b. so I would leave it open to discussion.
I agree. THe jetta turbo diesel has as its main weak point, the turbo, which if one lugs the engine at 1000 rpm or steps hard when the engine is cold, would decrease its lifespan.
The proper thing to do is to wait for the TDI engines to warm up, then use the turbo. THe engines produce max torque at only 1800 rpm....so no need to lug it around at 1000 rpm or scorch the engine at 5000 rpm. SOme people advise to not switch off the engine once you reach your destination, but wait a few seconds to let the turbo cool down.
TDI engines , like most diesel engines, have a thick iron wall...and will not crack as easy as the gassers. The engines operate on high compression, therefore the thick block...but overall the engine runs at a lower temperature and lower rpm than a gasser engine, so that there are relatively lower stresses. Therefore, diesel engines generally last longer...and have less parts to wear out.
NO need to warm up by idling the TDI engine, it will not warm up on idling alone...the car runs so efficiently that at idle the engine stays cool....Just turn on , and drive calmly for the first 2 miles...
While I surmise the 1.5 L gasser engine can/will still function despite the (hybrid) batteries going down, I am not sure in the real world what THAT scenario would do to its over all longevity and/or reliability. In the hands of its customers, 216,000 miles PAST 200,000 miles STILL appears to be uncharted real world territory,
I also would not know, but I would surmise that with the hybrid electric engine/batteries gone, the increased stresses that was originally shared by 2 engines, would all fall onto one engine...with the resulting engine life decreasing due to this increase in stresses...but that is only my guess, using common sense.
The Camry in the above example is working app 46% faster than the TDI to achieve the same (OBJECTIVE) result (say) 65 mph. (I don't know the exact speeds off the top of my head). Indeed I know that at app 2800 to 3000 RPMS, it is pushing 90-95 mph, and getting 48-50 mpg. Don't ask me how I know this.
When you combine this with the fact that the diesel is built much sturdier, (one reason being much higher compression) the durability is much longer.
Indeed it was about as hard as looking for a needle in a haystack to dig out the design parameter of 25,000 hours for the Jetta TDI. I have yet to find the design parameters for ANY GASSER, let alone the TDI's gasser competitor. So if anyone would care to share?....
I never thought about it that way....opened my vistas a little...
The gasser engine works a little harder than the diesel.
Back to IDLSUVWDY >>>. I remember adp3, sailor and other saying that insurance prices does not mean a thing. Well, I have a suburban and a VW Jetta TDI....and we are drivers for both cars, same registration address, same for all other factors, except the vehicles are different...
IT cost over $300 more to insure the Jetta, compared to the suburban....so much difference that the agent suggested that we list the suburban as the everyday commuting driver, instead of the Jetta TDI. Obviously, she was very nice..and wanted to save us money.. but also obvious is the fact that I really use the Jetta for commuting, and suburban for weekends.....
oh well...
nice breakdown of numbers , Rukes....
I am going to change my oil and fuel filters soon...
I love the diesels....you drive for a long time before you need to fill up....I used to fill up every 6 days, but now I do it every 15 days....and with less gallons , so it is much cheaper...
I plan on keeping this diesel car til the end...wonder where or when that will be ??? it has only....ONLY 110,000 miles ....... so if it were a gasser, we are talking about old age, at least past middle age....for a samller car.. but as a diesel, I will report here on the gas mileage and odometer mileage....
guess I may be here for a long time...