So no one opposed to "alternative energy" has any right to complain about alternative energy companies receiving them until ALL oil and coal subsidies are eliminated.
Looks like the oil companies agree with your view. Tax breaks and subsidies are ALL corporate welfare and should be eliminated. Then we will have a level playing field.
Last April, Senator Domenici (R-NM) demanded that the “Big 5″ oil companies provide him with “detailed explanations of how they use their profits to re-invest in energy production,” and “the extent of their investments in clean energy sources such as wind, solar, biomass and geothermal.”
Apparently the Senator did not know that the two foreign based of his target oil companies — UK-based BP and Netherlands-based Shell — are investing heavily in “wind energy” in the US, but perhaps not for the reasons the Senator had in mind.
Undoubtedly, Shell and BP hope their investments in “wind energy” will enhance their “green” image. In fact, these investments are also permitting the two companies to avoid tens or hundreds of millions in federal and state income tax on their profits, including oil profits.
Tax breaks are not tax write-offs for legitimate business expenses
I don't think you can finesse it that way. A tax break is a subsidy because it results in me having to pay more taxes to make up the difference. There's plenty of reasons to have tax breaks, but they still are a subsidy.
IMHO, the best way to define the difference between a subsidy and a tax deduction (whether it be depreciation or an expense) is: Is everyone eligible for it?
For example - if I'm a plumber and you're an electrician, if we both can buy a new van and depreciate the van at the same rate, and we both can deduct our miles driven as an expense than that is a Tax deduction. A tax subsidy example is: when a bill is passed stating that when electricians work on a green-project they only need to claim 50% of their income, but plumbers and carpenters still have to claim 100%.
A subsidy is a tax-break given to a particular industry or group. A tax deduction is a tax-break which is available to all industries or groups in business.
I think your definition of a subsidy, really isn't traditional in the tax sense. It's more the colloquial "subsidizing", as the person with no children is subsidizing putting other peoples' kids thru school. That's a giant rat-hole of a discussion.
No! I don't want the tickets. And I want to keep the mileage low! I'm more thinking about just parking it my driveway, starting it and putting it in neutral, and using a brick-on-a-string on the gas pedal. I could then sit back in a lawn chair, open a tall-cold-one and just listen to the music, and feel the ground rumble!
Nothing like ICE. I just can't imagine watching any of the Mad Max movies, if they were driving EV's or Priuses!
I completely agree with the article. It almost seems like we are hell bent on giving away our future. Or at least our children's future. Why not let emerging technology sell on merit alone. If it is worthwhile people will buy it. We all know that EV $7500 was designed to sell the Volt built by Government Motors. The EVs like the Leaf just happened to fit the rule. I don't see them widely bought by individuals. It will be corporate paybacks. Note GE is buying 12,000 Volt cars this year, and the CEO gets a Czar position in the Obama cabinet. That's how it works.
"We can't continue to be the world's largest economy relying on the 20th century energy system that got us to where we are," Hofmeister said. "What have we accomplished in the first decade of the 21st century toward a new energy system? I would argue that we are worse off today than when we started this century, in terms of replacing the 20th century energy system, because we have no plan. We don't know where we're going and we don't know how to get there," he added."
We're so far in debt, and running such an annual deficit, that I hope bureaucracies such as the DOE are either eliminated, or severely cut and merged with some other agency.
20-some billion per year for what? Some graphs and statistics that could be collected and made by 10 people? As your link above states - what have they accomplished? I say the government should start with a blank sheet of paper. Put most of these duplicate and non-productive agencies, on the scrap heap. The only thing positive I can say about most of our government is they didn't do as much harm as Fannie and Freddie - which are being put to sleep.
It would be interesting to see just how much of the waste in the states and Federal government are directly and indirectly related to the Scam known as AGW or MM/GW? I say blame it all on AL GORE.
I am sure a big part of the DOE's lack of direction is a result of AGW flailing. Chasing red herring etc. And $millions wasted on GW conferences in Copenhagen and Cancun.
How is Big Al doing? I haven't heard if that masseuse won her GW case with him - GW as in, Gore wanted some Warming.
I hope she gets quite a bit as he has been one of the worst leaches in modern history.
It was a balmy 6F here at 7:30am. Up in Northern NH another day starting at -17F. It looks like GW really is happening, day after day this goes on! Imagine how cold the vast expanses of Canada are. All that land basically uninhabitable year round because the Earth is so cold.
I'm hoping with the high today of 35F and some sun and the salt I threw in my driveway, to finally be able to drive up my driveway late today. But we're getting snow, ice or rain Fri. Yep, I really fail to see the warming part of the climate, when it snows from Oct thru April year after year. It did 50 years ago, it still does today. No significant change.
and the salt I threw in my driveway, to finally be able to drive up my driveway late today.
You have reminded me of what many homes in Alaska have to control ice on driveways and sidewalks. When they were built tubing is installed before the concrete is poured. Then all is plumbed into the hot water boiler commonly used in Alaska. Anchorage had cheap natural gas for decades. So a furnace that heated water to circulate throughout the home was not only very efficient it was dirt cheap. That was extended out and kept your driveway clear of ice and snow would melt quickly. A while back natural gas became a valuable commodity for those that owned the rights. So now Anchorage residents are paying dearly for these luxuries that most people would love to have in the winter. When I lived in Anchorage people would keep their homes at 75 degrees when it was well below zero outside. And gas bills in the winter rarely went over $20. Not so any longer.
There is still plenty of natural gas. Much of it is being put into ships and sold abroad or made into Hydrogen mostly for fertilizer. You got it, fertilizer to grow more corn per acre for ethanol. Sending more nitrogen down the rivers into the Gulf of Mexico expanding the Dead Zone. For every action there is a reaction. Many actions by well meaning Eco types have a negative reaction causing more environmental damage than we had before.
My natural gas bill in the 80s and 90s in Anchorage ran about $500 a year. Electric averaged around $30 a month (back when the city owned the utility). It was a small house but now I know people (in Idaho) with starter castles and equalized gas bills of around $500 a month. Hard to estimate what our gas bill will run here; highest so far as been $190 (forced air and gas stove). Almost 3,000 sq. ft. and only R19 in the ceiling (projects, projects).
As I recall, the sidewalk and driveway plumbing was zoned so you could turn it off. Didn't actually know anyone who had that done.
The idiotic worries of "I'm gonna run out of battery power and get stranded !!!" will go away with time.
That may be what you feel is the limiting factor for EVs. For myself a potential customer it is the over inflated cost of electricity in CA. Which will not go down with wind and solar power being turned up. Right today the cost equivalent would be a car that gets 28 MPG on gasoline. There are about 11 vehicles in that class size that sell for half the money after the $7500 tax credit is applied. Which is far from a sure thing with out tax code.
It is a novelty vehicle for a eco nut niche. No way a practical vehicle for anyone I know. You have to have more money than brains to buy one.
By contrast when I lived in a 2800 sq ft log house in Eagle River during the winter of 1991-92, propane cost me about $500 per month and we were using about a cord of wood at $180 per cord as well to keep that place warm. It had 2X2s with foam insulation and sheetrocked walls. Still a tough house to keep warm. It was beautiful but not practical to heat.
When did a Baywatch actress become a reliable source of information. LA power is less than San Diego. Not that much less. According to the BLS LA electric rates are as of Dec 2010 $.203 per KWH. That does not reflect the tiered rates we have in San Diego and I would imagine in Los Angeles as well. It will be interesting to hear her tales of being stuck in LA traffic and running out of juice during the rush hour that lasts from 5 AM to Midnight.
You don't know people who have a less than daily 100 mile commute and already have a second car they want to keep? Of course you do. Why you want to get caught in a fib like that?
THAT is the target audience for a Leaf. Average USA commute times, 2009 data There is an UNLIMITED target market for the Volt, because it does not have a range limit.
You keep harping about the high cost. But LEASES ARE AVAILABLE for $350-$400 a month !!!
Many, MANY people pay more per month for car payments. My TCH payment is $354 per month but started higher before I re-financed it.
So to summarize:
1. You DO know people for whom the Leaf is practical, and EVERYONE you know could utilize a Volt. 2. Cost is not an inhibiting factor, since you DO KNOW people who can afford a $350 per month lease payment.
So keep those straight and don't pass around false info, UmKay?
And apparently, some people in LA pay as little as 5 cents per kWh. So electricity cost for them is not an eliminating factor.
But even for people who pay 20 cents per kwh ( the current L.A. area average) electricity, versus expensive gas or diesel, can be a bargain.
I could get to the "big" city, Coeur d'Alene, ID, and back to Kellogg, ID, on one charge. larsb...man, do you think I could make it, though? I have lost step with the all-electric car community because, for one reason, the automakers are making so many great ICE's right now.
And Dave Smith Motors of Kellogg, ID, sells more Chryslers than any dealer in the world. I could get the best deal possible on a new Caliber-replacement about a half mile down the hill from our Kellogg rental home!
I guess what I'm sayin' is there's just too many choices out there now, and a rig that may or may not get my family to Coeur d'Alene to play on the weekend may not be my best choice. I'm gonna just keep the '08 Lancer GTS, enjoy the hell out of it, and wait for the automakers to really woo me. ICE or EV.
When did you move to Kellog? I love that area of ID. Much prettier than Elko, Nevada. I have used Dave Smith's prices several times to get good buys on Chevy PU trucks and my Suburban. You are right that the advantages of EVs are not yet apparent over their much cheaper ICE siblings.
You don't know people who have a less than daily 100 mile commute and already have a second car they want to keep? Of course you do. Why you want to get caught in a fib like that?
I did not know that was part of the discussion. Most people I know are well under 100 mile commute. The Leaf even according to Nissan has a nominal range of 70 Miles. You were talking about an LA commute which may be less than 70 miles. How would the Leaf do if it took you 4 hours to go 30 miles with the radio and AC going? I have spent 4 hours going from Santa Monica to Garden Grove on the 405. That is approximately 30 miles. Last I checked the average commuter in Los Angeles drives 32 miles one way. That is less than half way across the metro LA area. I would hate to be stuck in the HOV lane when a Leaf gasped its last breath. Unless electric rates come down in CA the EV will be a non starter. The Eco nuts will have to continue driving their hybrids. Which no longer get HOV lane passes. That is also a blessing for people that do in fact car pool.
Averaging 55 mph on the highway, in 95 degree weather, with the air conditioning on high may produce range figures like this. Higher speeds require more energy to overcome air resistance. Running the air conditioner means energy that could be used to increase range instead goes to cooling the car. Cross-town commute on a hot day: 68 miles
Speed: Average 49 mph
Temperature: 110 degrees
Climate control: On
Driving from a rural area into the city at an average 49 mph with the a/c on high may produce this range. Under these conditions, climate control combined with higher-speed driving produces increased energy consumption, hence the effect on range. Winter, urban stop-and-go, traffic jam: 62 miles
Speed: Average 15 mph
Temperature: 14 degrees
Climate control: On
Though the average speed is only 15 mph with stop-and-go traffic, the 14-degree temperature means the heater is doing a lot of work so you spend considerable time and energy heating your car rather than moving forward. Despite these conditions, it would still take more than 4 hours to run out of charge!
Notice Nissan has left out the normal speed for LA commuters when traffic is flowing properly. That would be 70+ MPH. AC on full blast. I am sure one of the auto sources will give it a proper test. Are you listening Edmunds?
Gary - L.A. is already a hot-spot for EVs. Probably have more per-capita than any other US city.
They probably have the most opulent homes, high dollar SUVs and high powered sports cars as well. What has that got to do with anything? When I see an actor or actress parading around in a Prius, I want to see their overall carbon footprint. Most of it is show to look environmentally astute.
I have wanted an EV for a long time. Unfortunately the GW dweebs have forced the price of electricity up with stupid mandates to where an EV is a foolish waste of money.
Best thing that could happen for EVs is unrest in the Middle East causing gas prices to spike, followed by a couple of refinery shutdowns in Texas and NJ or CA. If you can only buy gas on alternate days after waiting in line, then twenty cents a kilowatt may start to look ok.
That was my reason for wanting a diesel vehicle. In times of disaster gas can be hard to find. Diesel is rarely impacted in situations like Katrina. Our two major causes for concern would be fire and earthquakes. They plan to shut off our power in fire areas. Making an EV next to useless. Looking at the earthquake in NZ most of that city is without power. So I am not sure an EV would be a good choice. If I were to settle into a retirement community, an EV would be ideal. Just a golf cart with old fashioned cheap Lead Acid batteries. I came close to buying one when they offered that tax credit a year ago. Kind of a no brainer if you had any use for one.
Yeah, at the time I didn't think I'd be living in a place where a street legal cart would get me everywhere I need to be in town. But I have too much junk as it is.
Is diesel easier to find in a crisis? Or would you pour some Jack Daniels in the tank and keep moving?
This forum is not silly per se, but what is silly is that it is constantly at the top of "Most Popular in Forms"
Every time I skim it it reads like "he said, she said" with both sides claim that the other research is compromised by their primary source of funding or political point of view
Not sure that should warrant being in the top five every day - when other active and more diverse forums are prohibited from being listed as most popular due to a few bad apples more than a few years ago.
Someone else mentioned similar just yesterday. Ironically by noting that, YOU are also contributing to keeping it in the Top 5. Sort of like the people who would play LP's backwards looking for Satanic-verses, or the people who listened to Howard Stern to see if he said anything deserving FCC-fines.
I think this forum should be #1 all the time; because what's more important than GW which is destroying the Earth and all of us !! aaaggghhh!!
When did you move to Kellog? I love that area of ID. Much prettier than Elko, Nevada. I have used Dave Smith's prices several times to get good buys on Chevy PU trucks and my Suburban. You are right that the advantages of EVs are not yet apparent over their much cheaper ICE siblings.
We moved here in late January 2011. Once I saw Kellogg, ID, I decided I was home and wasn't moving again! I am running my own Cardio-Rehabilitation clinic here in Kellogg. Best job I ever had. I have people to answer to but they're all the way over in Florida.
Yeah, never seen anything like Dave Smith Motors. That place is a virtual auto-selling factory going on. Our son would like to get a job in some capacity there-some of Dave Smith's workers job is to clear snow off the cars. It is snowing here and the snow is piling up over the existing ice.
No GW here and if you were here it would appear that this Global Warming theory is nothing else but a dumb theory...dumb in that why would otherwise intelligent creatures buy in to this money-making scheme? Not a pyramid scheme but a scheme nonetheless.
Wait till summer when the occasional temp. being "5 degees warmer than it was this time last year" will get the Warmists whining again full blast :sick: .
"The e-mails leaked from the University of East Anglia in November 2009 produced what is popularly called "Climategate." They exposed the thoroughly unethical behavior of a group of climate scientists, mainly in the UK and US, involved in producing the global surface temperature record used and relied on by governments.
Not only did these climate scientists hide their raw data and their methodology of selection and adjustment of temperature data, but they fought hard against all attempts by independent outside scientists to replicate their results. They also undermined the peer-review system and tried to make it impossible for skeptical scientists to publish their work in scientific journals. There is voluminous evidence in the e-mails to this effect. In the process, they damaged not only the science enterprise -- full publication of data and methods, replication of results, open debate, etc -- but they also undermined the public credibility of all scientists.
However, the most serious revelation from the e-mails is that they tried to "hide the decline" in temperatures, using various "tricks" in order to keep alive a myth of rising temperatures in support of the dogma of anthropogenic global warming. There have now been a number of investigations of the activities of this group, mainly in the UK. These have all turned out to be complete whitewashes, aimed to exonerate the scientists involved. None of these investigations has even attempted to learn how and in what way the data might have been manipulated." from AmericanThinker
Flying uses 10 times as much fuel per passenger per mile than my pickup truck.
travelling around Australia on a bicycle and I came across this section, where the author mentioned how this 1 area holds the Guinness record for most consecutive days in a row above 100F. The book and this link said " The world record for the longest sequence of days above 100°Fahrenheit (or 37.8° on the Celsius scale) is held by Marble Bar in the inland Pilbara district of Western Australia. The temperature, measured under standard exposure conditions, reached or exceeded the century mark every day from 31 October 1923 to 7 April 1924, a total of 160 days."
Also: "But temperatures in other Western Australian towns have been higher: in a remarkable late-season heat-wave in February 1998, Mardie recorded a maximum of 50.5°C (on the 19th) – the highest temperature in Western Australia, and the second highest ever recorded in Australia using standard instrumentation (Oodnadatta, in South Australia, recorded 50.7°C on 2 January 1960)."
So the hottest string of weather ever in Australia was 88 years ago, and the hottest day was 51 years ago.
Anyone like to lookup the hottest day ever recorded in Canada?
Where's the beef? I mean warming? In the Arctic and nowhere else?
Anyone see all the news from egypt and Libya lately? Notice most everyone is wearing several shirts and coats? So close to the tropics, but apparently no warming there either.
The fruits are growing from the Iraqi seed of democracy planted by Bush. He really ripped the MIddle East Apart from within. Now women in Egypt want to 'Vote".
The economy with $5 gas will make it easier to be rid of the guy concentrating on gay marriage this week.
If the people run out and buy EV's, it won't even help the auto sector. F150 and Silverado are still the bread and butter of the American auto sector. Last time gas was $4, GM went BK and the Volt almost never came to be.
The Volt finished behind 11 other vehicles in greenness last week. Something about the 3700 lb weight due to large batteries weighing very negatively on it's greenness. I really like my 3650 lb coupe. That weight kills all road noise, elininates wind rock, and laughs at 10 inches of snow on an unplowed road.
The economy with $5 gas will make it easier to be rid of the guy concentrating on gay marriage this week.
He and wifey will be holding a "stamp out coal fired generators" benefit at the White House next week. Entertainment will be provided by Kanye West with Al Gore as the special guest of honor.
Small Nuclear War Could Reverse Global Warming for Years Regional war could spark "unprecedented climate change," experts predict.
Charles Q. Choi
for National Geographic News
Published February 22, 2011
Even a regional nuclear war could spark "unprecedented" global cooling and reduce rainfall for years, according to U.S. government computer models.
Widespread famine and disease would likely follow, experts speculate.
During the Cold War a nuclear exchange between superpowers—such as the one feared for years between the United States and the former Soviet Union—was predicted to cause a "nuclear winter."
In that scenario hundreds of nuclear explosions spark huge fires, whose smoke, dust, and ash blot out the sun for weeks amid a backdrop of dangerous radiation levels. Much of humanity eventually dies of starvation and disease.
Today, with the United States the only standing superpower, nuclear winter is little more than a nightmare. But nuclear war remains a very real threat—for instance, between developing-world nuclear powers, such as India and Pakistan.
This should be more than pleasing news for Al Gore followers. AGW folks hate the size of our growing population. They are just to PC to advocate extermination of the masses. So a nuclear war could be the answer to their prayers.
Sounds to me like they are already looking for convenient excuses when their GW scenario never happens. I am sure they will come up with more excuses over the next months and years.
I think that author underestimates not only the number of nuclear warheads that would go off - "hundreds" when we still have a combined 25,000 between the U.S. and Russia alone.
The main threat is an accidental war brought on by some computer system failure. Many former and current DOD experts put the chances at 1% or higher, in any decade. In 1983 just such a computer problem nearly ended civilization. 1 Soviet - Petrov, disobeyed his protocol, and did not launch the U.S.S.R.'s full nuclear counter-attack (which may have been 30,000+ at the time). If he had followed the information the satellite and computers gave him we would not be posting now. I think the U.N. honored this guy in 2006. Didn't really make the news.
I spent 8 hours this weekend in my driveway, snowblowing 10" and 4" of 2 snowstorms away, and then smashing 1.5" thick ice away from previous storms. All well and good, except we're getting freezing rain today, and the temperature will not break freezing tomorrow.
The snow around my house is about 5' deep of heavy packed snow that has slid off my roof. I'm trying to chop a path thru it so when an oil-truck can make it up my driveway, that the guy can actually get to the fill-ports on my house.
I'm currently using electric space heaters to minimize my oil-usage.
I see no evidence of GW. The only bright spot for me is that I plan to retire in a few years, and abandon this area to the relentless snow and cold. I'd like to see some GW before we're all asked to mitigate it. It doesn't make any sense to me that GW exists, or that it wouldn't be more beneficial than negative.
I plan to retire in a few years, and abandon this area to the relentless snow and cold. I'd like to see some GW before we're all asked to mitigate it.
By the time you retire and head to Florida they will be full into the next Ice Age. Not looking good my friend. CA is real iffy as well. Snow here yesterday. My fruit trees are mostly budding out. Hope that snow and cold did not destroy the Peaches, Plums and Apricots. You want to see snow. I'll show you So. CA snow. hehe
We have 7 big oak trees on our property. We have two that size the rest vary to about half that size. I am sure I have planted more than enough trees in my lifetime to mitigate a 100 SUVs. Most of the live oaks are protected in San Diego. We have two Englemann Oaks that are very rare. Fortunately they did not get cut down when our home was built. One is very close to our driveway. We love our oak trees. They are home to hundreds of birds. Some were here when the Spanish discovered CA. Many get burned in every fire.
Here's what I tend to believe: "Another dissenting voice comes from Roger Pielke, Sr., a researcher at the Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences in Boulder, who says that climate variability and change can occur from natural effects (for example, from the sun and volcanoes) as well as from a diverse set of human-related causes (besides carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases), which include aerosols and land use/land cover change.
"The natural variability of the climate is also larger and more diverse than reported in the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) reports" he says. "
.. . . WASHINGTON — What will it take for electric vehicles to move beyond early adopters to mass appeal: time, or something greater?
According to industry experts at the 2011 ARPA-E Energy Innovation Summit, it’s obvious indicators such as price, range and strength out of the gate — but also a rethink of the business model through which people buy cars.
Each panelist took a view on the issue based on their own specialty.
THE BATTERY
First, Yet-Ming Chiang, chief scientist at 24M Technologies, said the price of the battery is rapidly deflating, enabling electric cars to move within financial reach of more and more consumers.
“The cost of automotive pack batteries has come down by a factor of three over the past few years,” he said. “There’s nowhere to go but down.”
Chiang said he believed that lithium-ion technology will be around for “a long, long time” and hold its own against emerging, disruptive new technologies.
“With electric vehicles, you are developing incumbent technologies,” he said. Incumbents don’t stand still. They are very hard to displace. There’s still innovation in lithium-ion.”
You can do better than that. Look at that character claiming batteries have come down in price. I would say he has more than a biased interest in Li-ion technology. 24M used to be part of A123 that had the plug in Prii that would catch on fire. Li-ion is far from the end all in batteries as this guy would have you believe. What does he mean by disruptive new technologies? Does that mean they are better than his?
Energy storage system producer 24M Technologies spun out of lithium-ion battery maker A123 Systems today to become a separate venture.
The company raised a $10 million Series A funding round from Charles River Ventures and North Bridge Venture Partners.
The company raised an additional $6 million in a grant from the Department of Energy‘s Advanced Research Projects Agency – Energy (ARPA-E). The funding will help 24M develop batteries that can store more energy for a lower price.
They are hanging on by sucking up tax dollars. They will be gone when the Federal dollars are gone. That statement is what is known as a "Forward Looking Statement". In other words buyer beware. Don't expect any of this to end up as Jobs for Americans. If they are successful the operations will move to a friendlier environment like China or India when the tax dollars are gone.
That's good. Because the gasoline those cars save can be used to power all the growth in vehicles around the world. Here's what's going on in 1 little country of the world.
And if you went to Thailand, the Philippines, the Middle East, China's 1,300 million people, India's 1,100 million people you will see much of the same story.
More and more people are putting gasoline and diesel powered vehicles on the road.
EV's are like people going on a cruise, and dieting. Not much effect on how much gets eaten.
Now I'm not against EV's per se. If they aren't much more than a gas-vehicle, and I live somewhere temperate year-round, I'd drive one. Do I think it'll lower gasoline usage - very slightly. Does it change the fact that humanity will eventually burn all the oil that we can extract - NO.
Why does EVERYTHING have to be "jobs for Americans" with you?
Don't you know the world has changed? Or you know it, but choose to ignore that fact?
We all should stop trying to hold on to old ways and try to adapt to the new realities.
The new reality of business is that: profit margins are thin as ever. Competition has narrowed the field of players. If you can't sell close to bottom dollar, you need to revise your business model or perish.
Just deal with it.
Now: On to battery issues.
Um, yep he has a vested interest in battery technology. As we ALL do. Everyone knows and expects that battery technology will make tiny steps forward - and it HAS done that.
Carmakers are confident enough to use Li-ion technology in cars on the road.
Comments
Looks like the oil companies agree with your view. Tax breaks and subsidies are ALL corporate welfare and should be eliminated. Then we will have a level playing field.
Last April, Senator Domenici (R-NM) demanded that the “Big 5″ oil companies provide him with “detailed explanations of how they use their profits to re-invest in energy production,” and “the extent of their investments in clean energy sources such as wind, solar, biomass and geothermal.”
Apparently the Senator did not know that the two foreign based of his target oil companies — UK-based BP and Netherlands-based Shell — are investing heavily in “wind energy” in the US, but perhaps not for the reasons the Senator had in mind.
Undoubtedly, Shell and BP hope their investments in “wind energy” will enhance their “green” image. In fact, these investments are also permitting the two companies to avoid tens or hundreds of millions in federal and state income tax on their profits, including oil profits.
http://www.wind-watch.org/documents/two-oil-companies-use-wind-farm-tax-breaks-t- o-shelter-profits-from-income-tax/
Best thing I've read in this column for weeks. Buy a Shelby and then flog it mercilessly, find a place to open up those cylinders and go!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I don't think you can finesse it that way. A tax break is a subsidy because it results in me having to pay more taxes to make up the difference. There's plenty of reasons to have tax breaks, but they still are a subsidy.
For example - if I'm a plumber and you're an electrician, if we both can buy a new van and depreciate the van at the same rate, and we both can deduct our miles driven as an expense than that is a Tax deduction. A tax subsidy example is: when a bill is passed stating that when electricians work on a green-project they only need to claim 50% of their income, but plumbers and carpenters still have to claim 100%.
A subsidy is a tax-break given to a particular industry or group. A tax deduction is a tax-break which is available to all industries or groups in business.
I think your definition of a subsidy, really isn't traditional in the tax sense. It's more the colloquial "subsidizing", as the person with no children is subsidizing putting other peoples' kids thru school. That's a giant rat-hole of a discussion.
lol, then it fits right in here, eh?
This thread makes a nice segue to an AutoObserver link. :shades:
"At some point EVs are still too expensive to go mainstream. But is this the government’s (i.e. taxpayers’) problem?"
The Case Against EV Tax Credits and Rebates
Nothing like ICE. I just can't imagine watching any of the Mad Max movies, if they were driving EV's or Priuses!
Fuel-Cell Backers Criticize DOE Budget Cuts (AutoObserver)
"We can't continue to be the world's largest economy relying on the 20th century energy system that got us to where we are," Hofmeister said. "What have we accomplished in the first decade of the 21st century toward a new energy system? I would argue that we are worse off today than when we started this century, in terms of replacing the 20th century energy system, because we have no plan. We don't know where we're going and we don't know how to get there," he added."
(Hofmeister is a former president of Shell Oil)
20-some billion per year for what? Some graphs and statistics that could be collected and made by 10 people? As your link above states - what have they accomplished? I say the government should start with a blank sheet of paper. Put most of these duplicate and non-productive agencies, on the scrap heap. The only thing positive I can say about most of our government is they didn't do as much harm as Fannie and Freddie - which are being put to sleep.
I am sure a big part of the DOE's lack of direction is a result of AGW flailing. Chasing red herring etc. And $millions wasted on GW conferences in Copenhagen and Cancun.
I hope she gets quite a bit as he has been one of the worst leaches in modern history.
It was a balmy 6F here at 7:30am. Up in Northern NH another day starting at -17F. It looks like GW really is happening, day after day this goes on!
I'm hoping with the high today of 35F and some sun and the salt I threw in my driveway, to finally be able to drive up my driveway late today. But we're getting snow, ice or rain Fri. Yep, I really fail to see the warming part of the climate, when it snows from Oct thru April year after year. It did 50 years ago, it still does today. No significant change.
You have reminded me of what many homes in Alaska have to control ice on driveways and sidewalks. When they were built tubing is installed before the concrete is poured. Then all is plumbed into the hot water boiler commonly used in Alaska. Anchorage had cheap natural gas for decades. So a furnace that heated water to circulate throughout the home was not only very efficient it was dirt cheap. That was extended out and kept your driveway clear of ice and snow would melt quickly. A while back natural gas became a valuable commodity for those that owned the rights. So now Anchorage residents are paying dearly for these luxuries that most people would love to have in the winter. When I lived in Anchorage people would keep their homes at 75 degrees when it was well below zero outside. And gas bills in the winter rarely went over $20. Not so any longer.
There is still plenty of natural gas. Much of it is being put into ships and sold abroad or made into Hydrogen mostly for fertilizer. You got it, fertilizer to grow more corn per acre for ethanol. Sending more nitrogen down the rivers into the Gulf of Mexico expanding the Dead Zone. For every action there is a reaction. Many actions by well meaning Eco types have a negative reaction causing more environmental damage than we had before.
Not at first, no. But wait 10 years. They will have a solid 5-8 percent of the market.
You have to give it time for the doubts of the populace to be eliminated.
The idiotic worries of "I'm gonna run out of battery power and get stranded !!!" will go away with time.
Word of mouth works greater than any advertisement ever could.
As I recall, the sidewalk and driveway plumbing was zoned so you could turn it off. Didn't actually know anyone who had that done.
That may be what you feel is the limiting factor for EVs. For myself a potential customer it is the over inflated cost of electricity in CA. Which will not go down with wind and solar power being turned up. Right today the cost equivalent would be a car that gets 28 MPG on gasoline. There are about 11 vehicles in that class size that sell for half the money after the $7500 tax credit is applied. Which is far from a sure thing with out tax code.
It is a novelty vehicle for a eco nut niche. No way a practical vehicle for anyone I know. You have to have more money than brains to buy one.
Alexandra Paul (actress, famous for Baywatch?) posted a blog entry yesterday talking about her experience with her RAV4 EV.
She paid $1.71 per day in 2010 to power it.
She said she pays "about 5 cents per kWh" at her home in the L.A. area.
Maybe you should shop around for cheaper electricity.
When did a Baywatch actress become a reliable source of information. LA power is less than San Diego. Not that much less. According to the BLS LA electric rates are as of Dec 2010 $.203 per KWH. That does not reflect the tiered rates we have in San Diego and I would imagine in Los Angeles as well. It will be interesting to hear her tales of being stuck in LA traffic and running out of juice during the rush hour that lasts from 5 AM to Midnight.
http://www.bls.gov/ro9/cpilosa_energy.htm
You don't know people who have a less than daily 100 mile commute and already have a second car they want to keep? Of course you do. Why you want to get caught in a fib like that?
THAT is the target audience for a Leaf.
Average USA commute times, 2009 data
There is an UNLIMITED target market for the Volt, because it does not have a range limit.
You keep harping about the high cost. But LEASES ARE AVAILABLE for $350-$400 a month !!!
Many, MANY people pay more per month for car payments. My TCH payment is $354 per month but started higher before I re-financed it.
So to summarize:
1. You DO know people for whom the Leaf is practical, and EVERYONE you know could utilize a Volt.
2. Cost is not an inhibiting factor, since you DO KNOW people who can afford a $350 per month lease payment.
So keep those straight and don't pass around false info, UmKay?
And apparently, some people in LA pay as little as 5 cents per kWh. So electricity cost for them is not an eliminating factor.
But even for people who pay 20 cents per kwh ( the current L.A. area average) electricity, versus expensive gas or diesel, can be a bargain.
You need to get your info straight, Amigo.
She's a reliable source of info about EVs because she is a long-time owner back to the EV1 days.
And Dave Smith Motors of Kellogg, ID, sells more Chryslers than any dealer in the world. I could get the best deal possible on a new Caliber-replacement about a half mile down the hill from our Kellogg rental home!
I guess what I'm sayin' is there's just too many choices out there now, and a rig that may or may not get my family to Coeur d'Alene to play on the weekend may not be my best choice. I'm gonna just keep the '08 Lancer GTS, enjoy the hell out of it, and wait for the automakers to really woo me. ICE or EV.
Period.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I did not know that was part of the discussion. Most people I know are well under 100 mile commute. The Leaf even according to Nissan has a nominal range of 70 Miles. You were talking about an LA commute which may be less than 70 miles. How would the Leaf do if it took you 4 hours to go 30 miles with the radio and AC going? I have spent 4 hours going from Santa Monica to Garden Grove on the 405. That is approximately 30 miles. Last I checked the average commuter in Los Angeles drives 32 miles one way. That is less than half way across the metro LA area. I would hate to be stuck in the HOV lane when a Leaf gasped its last breath. Unless electric rates come down in CA the EV will be a non starter. The Eco nuts will have to continue driving their hybrids. Which no longer get HOV lane passes. That is also a blessing for people that do in fact car pool.
Gary - L.A. is already a hot-spot for EVs. Probably have more per-capita than any other US city.
And the future? Even more EV-heavy:
L.A. and New York to see big EV sales
You're claiming "dog won't hunt" on a dog that already hunts, Amigo... :shades:
Highway driving in the summer: 70 miles
Speed: Average 55 mph
Temperature: 95 degrees
Climate control: On
Averaging 55 mph on the highway, in 95 degree weather, with the air conditioning on high may produce range figures like this. Higher speeds require more energy to overcome air resistance. Running the air conditioner means energy that could be used to increase range instead goes to cooling the car.
Cross-town commute on a hot day: 68 miles
Speed: Average 49 mph
Temperature: 110 degrees
Climate control: On
Driving from a rural area into the city at an average 49 mph with the a/c on high may produce this range. Under these conditions, climate control combined with higher-speed driving produces increased energy consumption, hence the effect on range.
Winter, urban stop-and-go, traffic jam: 62 miles
Speed: Average 15 mph
Temperature: 14 degrees
Climate control: On
Though the average speed is only 15 mph with stop-and-go traffic, the 14-degree temperature means the heater is doing a lot of work so you spend considerable time and energy heating your car rather than moving forward. Despite these conditions, it would still take more than 4 hours to run out of charge!
Notice Nissan has left out the normal speed for LA commuters when traffic is flowing properly. That would be 70+ MPH. AC on full blast. I am sure one of the auto sources will give it a proper test. Are you listening Edmunds?
They probably have the most opulent homes, high dollar SUVs and high powered sports cars as well. What has that got to do with anything? When I see an actor or actress parading around in a Prius, I want to see their overall carbon footprint. Most of it is show to look environmentally astute.
I have wanted an EV for a long time. Unfortunately the GW dweebs have forced the price of electricity up with stupid mandates to where an EV is a foolish waste of money.
Is diesel easier to find in a crisis? Or would you pour some Jack Daniels in the tank and keep moving?
Every time I skim it it reads like "he said, she said" with both sides claim that the other research is compromised by their primary source of funding or political point of view
Not sure that should warrant being in the top five every day - when other active and more diverse forums are prohibited from being listed as most popular due to a few bad apples more than a few years ago.
I think this forum should be #1 all the time; because what's more important than GW which is destroying the Earth and all of us !! aaaggghhh!!
We moved here in late January 2011. Once I saw Kellogg, ID, I decided I was home and wasn't moving again! I am running my own Cardio-Rehabilitation clinic here in Kellogg. Best job I ever had. I have people to answer to but they're all the way over in Florida.
Yeah, never seen anything like Dave Smith Motors. That place is a virtual auto-selling factory going on. Our son would like to get a job in some capacity there-some of Dave Smith's workers job is to clear snow off the cars. It is snowing here and the snow is piling up over the existing ice.
No GW here and if you were here it would appear that this Global Warming theory is nothing else but a dumb theory...dumb in that why would otherwise intelligent creatures buy in to this money-making scheme? Not a pyramid scheme but a scheme nonetheless.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Not only did these climate scientists hide their raw data and their methodology of selection and adjustment of temperature data, but they fought hard against all attempts by independent outside scientists to replicate their results. They also undermined the peer-review system and tried to make it impossible for skeptical scientists to publish their work in scientific journals. There is voluminous evidence in the e-mails to this effect. In the process, they damaged not only the science enterprise -- full publication of data and methods, replication of results, open debate, etc -- but they also undermined the public credibility of all scientists.
However, the most serious revelation from the e-mails is that they tried to "hide the decline" in temperatures, using various "tricks" in order to keep alive a myth of rising temperatures in support of the dogma of anthropogenic global warming. There have now been a number of investigations of the activities of this group, mainly in the UK. These have all turned out to be complete whitewashes, aimed to exonerate the scientists involved. None of these investigations has even attempted to learn how and in what way the data might have been manipulated."
from AmericanThinker
Flying uses 10 times as much fuel per passenger per mile than my pickup truck.
" The world record for the longest sequence of days above 100°Fahrenheit (or 37.8° on the Celsius scale) is held by Marble Bar in the inland Pilbara district of Western Australia. The temperature, measured under standard exposure conditions, reached or exceeded the century mark every day from 31 October 1923 to 7 April 1924, a total of 160 days."
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/08/21/worlds-worst-heatwave-the-marble-bar-heatw- - ave-1923-24/
Also: "But temperatures in other Western Australian towns have been higher: in a remarkable late-season heat-wave in February 1998, Mardie recorded a maximum of 50.5°C (on the 19th) – the highest temperature in Western Australia, and the second highest ever recorded in Australia using standard instrumentation (Oodnadatta, in South Australia, recorded 50.7°C on 2 January 1960)."
So the hottest string of weather ever in Australia was 88 years ago, and the hottest day was 51 years ago.
Anyone like to lookup the hottest day ever recorded in Canada?
Where's the beef? I mean warming? In the Arctic and nowhere else?
Anyone see all the news from egypt and Libya lately? Notice most everyone is wearing several shirts and coats? So close to the tropics, but apparently no warming there either.
The economy with $5 gas will make it easier to be rid of the guy concentrating on gay marriage this week.
If the people run out and buy EV's, it won't even help the auto sector. F150 and Silverado are still the bread and butter of the American auto sector. Last time gas was $4, GM went BK and the Volt almost never came to be.
The Volt finished behind 11 other vehicles in greenness last week. Something about the 3700 lb weight due to large batteries weighing very negatively on it's greenness. I really like my 3650 lb coupe. That weight kills all road noise, elininates wind rock, and laughs at 10 inches of snow on an unplowed road.
He and wifey will be holding a "stamp out coal fired generators" benefit at the White House next week. Entertainment will be provided by Kanye West with Al Gore as the special guest of honor.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Regional war could spark "unprecedented climate change," experts predict.
Charles Q. Choi
for National Geographic News
Published February 22, 2011
Even a regional nuclear war could spark "unprecedented" global cooling and reduce rainfall for years, according to U.S. government computer models.
Widespread famine and disease would likely follow, experts speculate.
During the Cold War a nuclear exchange between superpowers—such as the one feared for years between the United States and the former Soviet Union—was predicted to cause a "nuclear winter."
In that scenario hundreds of nuclear explosions spark huge fires, whose smoke, dust, and ash blot out the sun for weeks amid a backdrop of dangerous radiation levels. Much of humanity eventually dies of starvation and disease.
Today, with the United States the only standing superpower, nuclear winter is little more than a nightmare. But nuclear war remains a very real threat—for instance, between developing-world nuclear powers, such as India and Pakistan.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/02/110223-nuclear-war-winter-global- -warming-environment-science-climate-change/
This should be more than pleasing news for Al Gore followers. AGW folks hate the size of our growing population. They are just to PC to advocate extermination of the masses. So a nuclear war could be the answer to their prayers.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The main threat is an accidental war brought on by some computer system failure. Many former and current DOD experts put the chances at 1% or higher, in any decade. In 1983 just such a computer problem nearly ended civilization. 1 Soviet - Petrov, disobeyed his protocol, and did not launch the U.S.S.R.'s full nuclear counter-attack (which may have been 30,000+ at the time). If he had followed the information the satellite and computers gave him we would not be posting now. I think the U.N. honored this guy in 2006. Didn't really make the news.
All well and good, except we're getting freezing rain today, and the temperature will not break freezing tomorrow.
The snow around my house is about 5' deep of heavy packed snow that has slid off my roof. I'm trying to chop a path thru it so when an oil-truck can make it up my driveway, that the guy can actually get to the fill-ports on my house.
I'm currently using electric space heaters to minimize my oil-usage.
I see no evidence of GW. The only bright spot for me is that I plan to retire in a few years, and abandon this area to the relentless snow and cold. I'd like to see some GW before we're all asked to mitigate it. It doesn't make any sense to me that GW exists, or that it wouldn't be more beneficial than negative.
By the time you retire and head to Florida they will be full into the next Ice Age. Not looking good my friend. CA is real iffy as well. Snow here yesterday. My fruit trees are mostly budding out. Hope that snow and cold did not destroy the Peaches, Plums and Apricots. You want to see snow. I'll show you So. CA snow. hehe
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
http://www.arroyoseco.org/eoak.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/climate/globalwarming/2011-03-01-snow-cold-globa- l-warming_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip
Here's what I tend to believe: "Another dissenting voice comes from Roger Pielke, Sr., a researcher at the Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences in Boulder, who says that climate variability and change can occur from natural effects (for example, from the sun and volcanoes) as well as from a diverse set of human-related causes (besides carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases), which include aerosols and land use/land cover change.
"The natural variability of the climate is also larger and more diverse than reported in the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) reports" he says. "
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WASHINGTON — What will it take for electric vehicles to move beyond early adopters to mass appeal: time, or something greater?
According to industry experts at the 2011 ARPA-E Energy Innovation Summit, it’s obvious indicators such as price, range and strength out of the gate — but also a rethink of the business model through which people buy cars.
Each panelist took a view on the issue based on their own specialty.
THE BATTERY
First, Yet-Ming Chiang, chief scientist at 24M Technologies, said the price of the battery is rapidly deflating, enabling electric cars to move within financial reach of more and more consumers.
“The cost of automotive pack batteries has come down by a factor of three over the past few years,” he said. “There’s nowhere to go but down.”
Chiang said he believed that lithium-ion technology will be around for “a long, long time” and hold its own against emerging, disruptive new technologies.
“With electric vehicles, you are developing incumbent technologies,” he said. Incumbents don’t stand still. They are very hard to displace. There’s still innovation in lithium-ion.”
2020 OUTLOOK: 20-25 million EVs on the roads
Energy storage system producer 24M Technologies spun out of lithium-ion battery maker A123 Systems today to become a separate venture.
The company raised a $10 million Series A funding round from Charles River Ventures and North Bridge Venture Partners.
The company raised an additional $6 million in a grant from the Department of Energy‘s Advanced Research Projects Agency – Energy (ARPA-E). The funding will help 24M develop batteries that can store more energy for a lower price.
They are hanging on by sucking up tax dollars. They will be gone when the Federal dollars are gone. That statement is what is known as a "Forward Looking Statement". In other words buyer beware. Don't expect any of this to end up as Jobs for Americans. If they are successful the operations will move to a friendlier environment like China or India when the tax dollars are gone.
http://news.infibeam.com/blog/news/2010/06/30/honda_to_expand_motorcycle_product- ion_capacity_in_vietnam.html
And if you went to Thailand, the Philippines, the Middle East, China's 1,300 million people, India's 1,100 million people you will see much of the same story.
More and more people are putting gasoline and diesel powered vehicles on the road.
EV's are like people going on a cruise, and dieting. Not much effect on how much gets eaten.
Now I'm not against EV's per se. If they aren't much more than a gas-vehicle, and I live somewhere temperate year-round, I'd drive one. Do I think it'll lower gasoline usage - very slightly. Does it change the fact that humanity will eventually burn all the oil that we can extract - NO.
Why does EVERYTHING have to be "jobs for Americans" with you?
Don't you know the world has changed? Or you know it, but choose to ignore that fact?
We all should stop trying to hold on to old ways and try to adapt to the new realities.
The new reality of business is that: profit margins are thin as ever. Competition has narrowed the field of players. If you can't sell close to bottom dollar, you need to revise your business model or perish.
Just deal with it.
Now: On to battery issues.
Um, yep he has a vested interest in battery technology. As we ALL do. Everyone knows and expects that battery technology will make tiny steps forward - and it HAS done that.
Carmakers are confident enough to use Li-ion technology in cars on the road.