Thanks to this, US enjoyed a nice period of growth and nobody argues today that it was a mistake. Let us quit double standards and do what must be done instead of whining before high gas price and doing nothing.
I don't consider the Interstate Highway system a mistake at ALL. Most people in the US are glad we have it and are using it. Many more lower middle class families are able to afford a driving vacation than they would a train or plane vacation because of the highway system. We will need a lot more highways when a good alternative to fossil fuel is mainstream. With cheap nuclear, wind and solar power everyone will have cheap transportation. Kind of like the old "A chicken in every Pot" campaign. Recharge your EV for a 500 mile range for $5 bucks. Get people to spread out across the beautiful country and alleviate the congestion caused by big cities.
In the mean time, I cannot think of two cities in the USA I would want to ride an HST between more than ONCE. I don't think that will justify the expense. EVs for the masses will be the answer to all our problems... :shades:
I might consider a fast train ride from San Diego to Sacramento. I would like to see the Railroad Museum up there. It is one of the best in the world. I don't think I will still be around to ride that route. So we may just bite the bullet and buy the gas for the trip up there in the Sequoia.
Off topic, but that Sacramento, CA railroad museum is superb ! When the kids were young, we went multiple times.
I had to take CA history when I was in college (35 years ago) and curiously STILL had the book and read back up on it. As we went through the museum it almost plugs in to some of the themes of the railroad museum.
The book 1969/1973 "California An Interpretive History" 2nd edition (Professor) Walton E. Bean.
Truly the Railroad Museum is a slice of the story of the westward migration.
"...By the time the greenies outlaw all the food..."
Why stop there? After all, humans are a large source od Co2 emissions, right. Why not just require a government permit to exhale? Think of the GHG that can be stored in people's lungs.
Of course we would have to start with the rich because they breath more air than the rest of us.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
The combined average global land and ocean surface temperatures for June 2008 ranked eighth warmest for June since worldwide records began in 1880, according to an analysis by NOAA’s National Climatic Data Center in Asheville, N.C. Also, globally it was the ninth warmest January – June period on record. Global Highlights
* The combined global land and ocean surface temperature for June 2008 was 60.8 degrees F, which is 0.9 degrees F above the 20th century mean of 59.9 degrees F.
* Separately, the global land surface temperature was 57.2 degrees F, which is 1.3 degrees F above the 20th century mean of 55.9 degrees F.
* The global ocean surface temperature was 62.2 degrees F, which is 0.7 degrees F above the 20th century mean of 61.5 degrees F.
* For the January – June period, the combined global land and ocean surface temperature was 57.1 degrees F, which is 0.8 degrees F about the 20th century mean of 56.3 degrees F.
Other Highlights
* Northern Hemisphere Arctic sea ice extent for June 2008 ranked third lowest for June since records began in 1979. Southern Hemisphere Antarctic sea ice extent for June 2008 was above the 1979-2000 mean, ranking as the second largest June extent.
Interesting that since 1979, there were two more years with less arctic sea ice than this year. Wonder what years?
It's been a nice and cool summer for us. We're having our first day over 90 according tot he news stations. Normally we would have had some 90s days by now!.
We're also had enough precipiation, but I suspect that was only because AlGore approved it because someone blessed his funds by buying carbon credits!!!
So the Arctic ice is melting and the Antarctic ice is expanding. Easy solution, push the excess from the South to the North with BIG TUG Boats. Only about 6 degrees to catch up with the warming of the middle ages. Just finishing a book on the Vikings that settled in Greenland. They were fine till it cooled down and froze em out. I wonder if they still have title to that land. There are still a few of us left that see the bright side if it does warm up. If it does not get warmer there will be a lot more people burning coal for heat with the over priced heating oil and propane.
By the way the HOAX is thinking we can buy our way out of any climate change. The climate changes we change with it. If we don't we die. Very simple even for me to understand.
Steve pointed it out and my son in Alaska verified. It is a VERY cold summer up there. This week in the 50s. About 15 degrees below normal. Here in San Diego it is a balmy 88 and exactly normal for today. I love predictable weather. So much better for planning a picnic...
So, where are they going to dispose of all the waste wind? And what about all the poor folks downwind of the wind?
As near as I can tell, they are going to spend $4.9 billion for 13,000 megawatts of wind power.
Numbers are all over the map, but it seems that the cost of a 1,500-megawatt nuclear plant is around $9 billion. And I don't think that number includes waste management.
10 years ago I would have guessed that all the massive headlines would have been about solar, not wind.
As near as I can tell, they are going to spend $4.9 billion ...
Having seen the Big Dig road-project financial cost double several times during the project, I'm guessing this will cost around $20B and be about 5 years late. The wind project will be worth it, if the systems are low maintenance and have a long-life.
To keep costs down and provide rehabilitation and skills, I'd like to suggest we all petition our reps. to use our 2 million prisoners to build the equipment, and install it. Time to give up the weights and TV.
10 years ago I would have guessed that all the massive headlines would have been about solar, not wind.
I think that wind has become the eco energy of choice. The issue will be getting locations that are consistently windy and not an eyesore to the locals. Wind for big power. Solar for individuals if they ever get the price reasonable. Solar has not advanced nearly as well as wind generation. Wind blows 24 hours a day in some places. Sun at best is half the year with loss for clouds. I am just as surprised as you are. I remember that mess along Interstate 10 going toward Palm Springs. Most of the generators were broke and laying flat on the ground.
Solar CAN be done right and blow every other "green energy alternative" out of the water.
This company is putting a Solar POWER PLANT in the California desert and are going to generate enough power for 1 million Cali homes. The have done their testing as Sandia Labs in New Mexico.
Sandia, Stirling Energy Systems set new world record for solar-to-grid conversion efficiency 31.25 percent efficiency rate topples 1984 record Sandia and Stirling Energy Systems set new world record for solar-to-grid conversion efficiency. The record establishes a new solar-to-grid conversion efficiency of 31.25 percent. The old record, which has stood since 1984, was 29.4 percent.
ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. —On a perfect New Mexico winter day — with the sky almost 10 percent brighter than usual — Sandia National Laboratories and Stirling Energy Systems (SES) set a new solar-to-grid system conversion efficiency record by achieving a 31.25 percent net efficiency rate. The old 1984 record of 29.4 percent was toppled Jan. 31 on SES’s “Serial #3” solar dish Stirling system at Sandia’s National Solar Thermal Test Facility.
The conversion efficiency is calculated by measuring the net energy delivered to the grid and dividing it by the solar energy hitting the dish mirrors. Auxiliary loads, such as water pumps, computers and tracking motors, are accounted for in the net power measurement.
“Gaining two whole points of conversion efficiency in this type of system is phenomenal,” says Bruce Osborn, SES president and CEO. “This is a significant advancement that takes our dish engine systems well beyond the capacities of any other solar dish collectors and one step closer to commercializing an affordable system.”
NIMBY, those are ugly looking monsters. I like the wind generators better. Solar will play a small role in providing power. What will you do with all the EVs that need to be charged at night? This is a balancing act. You have two providers of energy. It is a bright windy day in the desert. You are pushing more power to the grid than is needed. Who will they shut down and deny payment for energy provided?
This has already come up in the Northwest on a very windy day. Bonneville did not want to shut down a turbine in the hydro system and the Wind people wanted to sell all they could produce. Who gets screwed? You cannot save it for the night or a calm day. You have to build to satisfy demand 24/7. Makes for interesting discussion.
SDG&E during the last heat wave had plenty of reserve. I think they were worried up around LA.
I'm hoping they take back that award from Al Gore and he gets sued for causing mass hysteria among the little people of the World. In my opinion what he has done is far worse than yelling fire in a theater....
The American Physical Society, an organization representing nearly 50,000 physicists, has reversed its stance on climate change and is now proclaiming that many of its members disbelieve in human-induced global warming. The APS is also sponsoring public debate on the validity of global warming science. The leadership of the society had previously called the evidence for global warming "incontrovertible."
In a posting to the APS forum, editor Jeffrey Marque explains,"There is a considerable presence within the scientific community of people who do not agree with the IPCC conclusion that anthropogenic CO2 emissions are very probably likely to be primarily responsible for global warming that has occurred since the Industrial Revolution."
P.S. Gary - One of their power plant projects is in El Centro and contracted for a 20 year purchasing agreement with SDGE.
Not all that glitters is gold...
Wednesday, March 12, 2008
One of SDG&E's largest renewable projects has so far failed to materialize. Stirling Energy Systems, a Phoenix-based solar developer, has a contract with SDG&E to build 300 megawatts of solar energy in Imperial County. That's enough to power almost 200,000 homes. If successful, the venture could triple in size, powering as many as 600,000 homes. But the project, which would use mirrored dishes to focus the sun's energy on a small engine, has shown little progress since being announced in 2005.
Then you have your typical government roadblocks to progress in this state especially.
San Diego Gas & Electric will not likely meet a state-mandated goal to get 20 percent of its electricity from renewable energy sources by 2010, making it the only state utility to admit that it expects to fall short of the green-energy mandate.
SDG&E has agreements with developers of renewable energy sources and has hundreds of megawatts under contract -- enough to provide 13 percent of its total supply. But many of those projects are not built and are not providing green energy to San Diego. The company blames delays in its application process to secure state approval of the Sunrise Powerlink, a $1.3 billion, 150-mile transmission line it has proposed between San Diego and Imperial County.
It is the same old story. You got one enviro wacko group pushing unrealistic mandates, while another enviro group blocks the progress.
>The American Physical Society no longer buys the global warming myth.
The articles displays Christopher Monckton struggling to downplay GW. This is the same person who was quoted in the Telegraph article linked by Gary.
Mr Moncton is a high profile GW sceptic and I understand that his views may draw sympathy from some oil-addicted people.
I would be careful though before naming GW a myth.
Even the article linked by tidester added an update :
Update 7/17/2008: After publication of this story, the APS responded with a statement that its Physics and Society Forum is merely one unit within the APS, and its views do not reflect those of the Society at large.
I could say one year ago I did not care about it. The more I read about it, the more I see it is a serious issue demanding action.
"The per capita use in the U.S. may decline slightly..."
I am thinking it will be a bit more than "slightly". They are already issuing warnings over natural gas prices this winter in our state. The NE is bracing for very high heating oil costs. Diesel and RUG are at record levels. Inflation is increasing.... I really think the people on the lower income levels are going to be in trouble.
And if you look at the headlines from around the world you can see that people are struggling. http://energyshortage.org/ I'm not suggesting that it is all doom and gloom, just that high energy prices and shortages will put the breaks on economic activity and indirectly slow emissions of CO2.
It would be interesting to see the number of tons of CO2 saved as people switch to smaller vehicles.
You must have a different kind of gopher where you are - when I trap them here you open up an air hole for them and when they come back to close it up you nab them.
T. Boone is trying to distance himself from Al Gore, calling his wind plans a way to get away from foreign oil. Al wants to go 100% green with electric power in a decade. (link)
There's some interesting charts at this blog - says that cars and trucks use over 50% of the oil burned in the US a day. Oil for electricity is way down on the list. (The Big Future)
T. Boone is trying to distance himself from Al Gore, calling his wind plans a way to get away from foreign oil. Al wants to go 100% green with electric power in a decade.
Does Al Gore really believe the crap that spews out of his mouth? NO Fossil fuel in a decade. California has a 20% mandate for renewable electricity by 2012. They will be lucky if any of the power companies meet that. And he thinks we will be 100% by 2018. I will make a wild guess that we will still be at least 50% coal generated electricity in 10 years. Maybe no one told big Al the BLM is holding up new solar generation farms on Federal land for at least 2 years. They have to do environmental impact studies. We will be very luck to have 30% renewable in 10 years.
T Boone's plan shows practical logic. I would get behind him ahead of ANY POLITICIAN IN THE USA. He knows how to get things done in an orderly manner.
1) they can increase Oil independance 2) They are good for CO2 and other environmental issues 3) They are a tremendous growth relay as other fossil fuels based technologies reached their limit.
The main downsides are : 1) nead heavy cash and long term payback 2) need political support 3) Only work when implemented (i.e talking a lot about and doing nothing does not work)
The problem is I don't see the US clearly taking action towards clean technologies. If US keeps the current trend and enacts a few cosmetic "look, I-am-doing-something" laws (55 mph nationwide, super tax on oil companies..)
1) There won't be serious CO2 production drop (except from recession induced) 2) US will go deeper into recession 3) more oil wars to come
Mr Moncton is a high profile GW sceptic and I understand that his views may draw sympathy from some oil-addicted people.
If we could separate ourselves from the ad hominem for just a moment then perhaps you might care to elaborate on precisely where you think the skeptic is wrong?
I would be careful though before naming GW a myth.
It may or may not be myth but there is precious little science in it despite the hoopla and political frenzy. Historical data directly and clearly contradicts the premise of global warming theory and the modelling is almost laughable in its utter lack of sound science. The IPCC is a purely political organization and its charter precludes it from even considering anything but man made contributions to an imagined problem.
The more I read about it, the more I see it is a serious issue demanding action.
Then you need to broaden your horizons a bit. Here are some Summer selections for your reading pleasure:
"The Deniers" - Lawrence Solomon "An Appeal to Reason: A Cool Look at Global Warming" - Nigel Lawson "Blue Planet in Green Shackles" - Vaclav Klaus
"10 years ago I would have guessed that all the massive headlines would have been about solar, not wind. "
That is the interesting thing about competing technologies, you can never be sure which one will win. I think we did have a hint that wind was going to do well, however. Denmark has been getting over 10% of their electricity for a number of years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark
The other unknowns are siting issues, water issues or even how the public or regulators will receive whatever you are trying to build.
Some of you may have heard that ND might get a massive wind farm.
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D91I18E03.htm "North Dakota's biggest wind developer is proposing a $2 billion wind turbine farm in the west-central part of the state. It would be capable of generating 1,000 megawatts of electricity."
Ironically, there is concern about building the wind turbines over coal deposits (that are surface mined). Last I heard, they might be OK.
And yes, North Dakota will no longer be the open prairie. We will be full of; wind turbines, oil rigs, coal power plants, coal mines, coal to liquid plants, ethanol plants, elevators, and the occasional bison. :surprise:
"You must have a different kind of gopher where you are - when I trap them here you open up an air hole for them and when they come back to close it up you nab them."
Recently, when I drove by the large Garrison dam I noticed hundreds of flags on the dam face. Each represented a gopher hole. Apparently they first poison the gophers. Later they get kids to run around with pails of dirt to fill in the holes. Now you know what kids do here at summer camp. If your kids get out of line just threaten to send them to summer camp in ND.
You are right, it is not good to discuss people but better to discuss ideas.
One of the most visible aspect of Global warming is the obvious disappearance of the Arctic Ice cap (including that of the Greenland)
The theory Mr Monckton supports is that the Medieval Warm period was much warmer than as described by the IPCC charts and that the temperatures were much higher at that time than today's
As I could not get any reference for the chart supporting Mr Monckton's theory, I am left to believe that this chart is very likely to be speculative.
>The IPCC is a purely political organization and its charter precludes it from even considering anything but man made contributions to an imagined problem.
http://www.ipcc.ch/about/index.htm We are in disagreement over this. I find their views pretty balanced and I praise their will to remain as objective as possible.
>Here are some Summer selections for your reading pleasure:
I don't think I am the only one in need to broaden one's horizons.
I am in China, not easy to get those titles. Will look into it back in France.
Sounds to me like without that refinery the planes would not be able to refuel in SFO. I wonder if the Enviro wackos in the San Francisco area think they can survive on tourists that walk or ride their bikes there on vacation? I get the distinct feeling they would like to shut down any business that produces GHG. It does not leave many ways to generate income. No jobs, no money, no pay mortgage or taxes. They are not making it a desirable place to do business.
You are right, it is not good to discuss people but better to discuss ideas.
I'm sure no one is going to dis Al Gore in here again.
@Avalon02, I wonder if those are prairie dogs? Windmills have been around the west for decades too, just like the ones I'm sure you've seen on the prairies, all used for pumping water to fill the stock tanks. I remember looking at them driving cross country in my younger days and rarely saw one actually running. About ten years ago I toured the experimental wind farm on PEI and none of their mills were working worth a flip either.
I guess I'm still partial to solar since you don't have to be tied to the grid in most locations to run your house. If people think solar and wind farms are visual eyesores, wait until we have high tension power lines going everywhere. Those things cause cancer, right?
My home state of Texas, in fact very near my hometown (one of the new transmission lines will go through my hometown county) is adopting a very ambitious Wind Power project. ( Unlike Cali, which seems to trip over itself when trying to do the right thing. )
Will steal a lot of power requirements from coal-fueled power plants:
In a move that could be a financial boon for the Big Country, state regulators approved a plan Thursday to build a massive grid to transmit wind power from gusty West Texas and the Panhandle to energy-thirsty metropolitan areas.
The Texas Public Utility Commission's action opens the door for construction of a far-reaching web of transmission lines that, when completed at a cost of nearly $5 billion over four or five years, would be able to handle enough wind-generated electricity to power more than 4 million homes. The electricity will go to some of the state's most populous areas, including Dallas, San Antonio and Houston.
Paying for the PUC plan would add roughly $4 per month to residential customer bills after construction is completed.
Passage of the plan is "a real big deal," said Sweetwater Mayor Greg Wortham, who also heads the West Texas Wind Energy Consortium. "It's good for Abilene, good for Sweetwater, good for the region."
Good, in fact, for the entire state of Texas, Wortham said.
"This will bring billions more dollars of investment to Texas in the form of wind equipment, construction, local revenues and jobs," said Susan Williams Sloan, spokeswoman for the Washington, D.C.-based American Wind Energy Association.
One of the most visible aspect of Global warming is the obvious disappearance of the Arctic Ice cap (including that of the Greenland)
And one of the least visible (in terms of media hype) aspects is that the central part of Greenland's ice sheet is growing in thickness. It is the same with Antarctica. We see one little portion where the glaciers are falling into the sea but the reporting fails to mention that the total mass of the ice cap is increasing. What we are seeing is a continuation of 20,000+ years of global warming and evershifting weather patterns.
I find their views pretty balanced and I praise their will to remain as objective as possible.
Balance? This is straight from the charter: "Its role is to assess on a comprehensive, objective, open and transparent basis the latest scientific, technical and socio-economic literature produced worldwide relevant to the understanding of the risk of human-induced climate change, its observed and projected impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation." And Rajendra Pachari seems to be on a personal mission to indict humanity.
I don't think I am the only one in need to broaden one's horizons.
My horizon is the scientific validity of climate change theory. When science is supplanted by politics then we should all worry. Scientifically speaking, climate change theory is seriously flawed.
I just had a thought. Wonder if the climate change will change the prevailing winds that these wind farms have to have?
I think TX will lead the nation on renewable energy. They are not bogged down with as many groups that control the state governments as on both coasts. TX after Alaska has the least need for an alternative to fossil fuel. Yet they are pushing the right direction. I am still not sold on solar panels as they exist today. It sounds like that Sandia system is faltering in production. They have left SDG&E in a bad position. That and all the bureaucratic holdups on land acquisition in the viable regions for renewable energy. It is going to be an uphill battle in states like CA.
100% renewable in 10 years. Must be some great drugs available when you got $100,000,000 to spend. What a joker. :confuse:
tidester says, "Scientifically speaking, climate change theory is seriously flawed. "
My response to that:
Common sensibly speaking, something is DEFINITELY going on, something unusual, which has gotten worse in the last 25 years. The fact that man's contribution CANNOT BE ELIMINATED from the possible contributable causes means GW requires more study and should not be poo-pooed.
GW requires more study and should not be poo-pooed.
It is not the so called deniers or skeptics, that do not want further study. It is the "Man Made GW Cult" that claims it is a done deal no further study needed. That is what the word consensus means. Done, finished, no more studies. Yes there is always something going on with the Earth. We have hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis etc etc. I have read articles by these GW fanatics that has blamed all of those things on man. No wonder a growing percentage of the population are saying wait a minute here. Add to that these flaky political types that see an opening to further tax the people and they jump on the bandwagon like fleas on a dog.
Oh if anyone is interested I have $100,000 worth of "A" grade carbon credits for sale. These are not some cheap Mango trees that will be DOA.
Common sensibly speaking, something is DEFINITELY going on, something unusual, which has gotten worse in the last 25 years.
Sorry, but that's not even close. Common sense dictates that if what we see today is indistinguishible from natural variability over the eons then there is probably nothing unusual about today. 25 years? I call that cherry picking.
The fact that man's contribution CANNOT BE ELIMINATED from the possible contributable causes means GW requires more study and should not be poo-pooed.
The problem is that "proponents" generally tend to stifle and suppress ANY discussion and they certainly do not want further study. The mantra is still "the debate is over" which is silly, of course, and anyone attempting to question the science is in denial. Surely, you're aware of that.
Tidester - we've had this discussion before, but for the sake of newbies, let me state my opinion one more time.
Following the information provided by "current trends" is not "Cherry Picking." It's called "using the most current applicable data." At this point, I don't really care about someone ignoring the "current trends." I will not do so. Regardless of how many times you want to say it DOES MATTER, climate events which happened 150 years ago or 3000 years ago are not NEARLY important as what is happening RIGHT NOW.
I will not ignore it, and neither will THESE guys:
• Warmer temperatures will produce more extreme weather conditions, triggering floods, more intense storms, longer droughts and extended hot-weather seasons.
• People will feel the effects beyond the immediate weather events. Water and airborne diseases could spread more quickly and more people could develop asthma or other pulmonary ailments. Deaths related to heat and declining air quality will climb rapidly among the most vulnerable: the young, elderly and poor.
• Climate change will hit hard in locations and among populations least-prepared to adapt. People in Boston or other Northern cities, for example, often lack air-conditioning and will suffer during heat waves.
• The economy will suffer. Dealing with the effects will strain government budgets and could hurt tourism. The report predicts widespread losses to cold-water fisheries and other recreational amenities.
For the Western USA, the report foresees a hotter, drier future. Culling research from a growing number of climate researchers, the EPA scientists said climate change would disrupt the critical runoff cycle that provides water to millions of people.
Warmer winters shorten the snow season and send water into streams too early or hasten its evaporation. The Phoenix area relies on runoff from the Colorado, Salt and Verde rivers for about two-thirds of its annual water needs.
The shorter winter could also trigger an earlier wildfire season, which, in turn, would spew more soot into the air.
The disrupted runoff cycle may cause more serious problems than the EPA report predicted, according a separate study released this week through Purdue University.
That study used more detailed models and found that earlier snowmelt actually leads to even warmer temperatures, which then keep snow from accumulating in the mountains. The researchers believe the effect could reduce the amount of snow and runoff twice as much as earlier thought.
"If these projections become reality, then the ecosystems of the northern and central Rockies will undergo dramatic changes," said Gregg Garfin, one of the study's authors and a deputy director at the UA institute.
So, NATURALLY OCCURRING or not, the warming is NOT GOOD NEWS for many parts of the USA and the world in general.
I think that is teriffic. The best thing about a project like that is that it doesn't require that some poor guy working at Mickey D's to sell his first born to pay for it. It might even be far enough away that the Kennedy's won't object.
Up here in the northeast, every time someone proposes a wind farm some fat cats and the NIMBYs come out of the woodwork and stop it.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Following the information provided by "current trends" is not "Cherry Picking."
It most certainly is cherry picking. 25 years on the scale of global climate change is far too short to be called anything but transitory. And if your focus is really limited to two and half decades then you'll have a hard time convincing anyone of trends since the last 10 years of that period have been either flat or slightly decreasing in terms of "global temperature." I am just amazed at how people casually dismiss physical processes that have been in play since forever and latch on to a climatological Rorschach test.
I will not ignore it, and neither will THESE guys:
THOSE guys have created a fantasy. Yes, by analogy, given that an asteroid will strike the Earth there will be serious consequences. But that avoids the question of whether there will be a strike and whether we caused it. They also ignore any possible benefits of global warming. It's called alarmism. And, oh, did I mention that the EPA is a political organization that stands to benefit from that alarmism?
Believe what you want but the science just isn't there.
We have hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis etc etc. I have read articles by these GW fanatics that has blamed all of those things on man.
Remember the Rampart Dam controversy? - besides claims that it would change the climate of interior Alaska, opponents said it could trigger quakes in an already seismically active state.
Your whole article is written with NO SCIENTIFIC data backing it up It is all re-hashed political rhetoric. I do not doubt that you believe it. You also believe the EPA is not politically motivated by lobby groups. All you can see is the Pollution aspect and grab hold of anyone that will push that agenda. Without any regard for the consequences. Take a long hard look at CA politics and you will see what is in store for AZ very soon. You will have mandates that are impossible to live by and your lifestyle will be in dire jeopardy. There are those that believe the use of AC should not be allowed. They may be coming to a city near you very soon.....
Indeed, not too much shipbuilding activity for ocen going sailing ships, aka SAIL/WIND powered. Nor is there too much solar power adaptation.
It isn't like sail ships are not an unproven transportation method. Christopher Columbus, Vikings, and the Chinese and (whomever) all have discovered the new world aka (USA) with them. :shades:
So, NATURALLY OCCURRING or not, the warming is NOT GOOD NEWS for many parts of the USA and the world in general.
I know there are many Indian ruins throughtout AZ and into Mexico, and the old Incan Empire. Those civilizations were abandoned, and it is postulated that it was due to severe drought and heat. So since there really wasn't any man-made GW then, we can conclude these sorts of things are probably natural. Though its not good news, at least we know we can't do much about it and can continue to drive our automobiles as we want. Soon we'll just drive up to Canada and Alaska, and settle in those vast unspoiled areas.
In fact, if you have been following this thread since I came here, you will find out that I have gone from "the debate is over" to "we need to know more."
Soon we'll just drive up to Canada and Alaska, and settle in those vast unspoiled areas.
I love optimism. Life is so much nicer when you dwell on the positive and reject all the negativism around you.
How about the warming that is occurring on several of the planets in our solar system? I had no idea GM was selling SUVs on Mars.
According to NASA temperature sensing instruments Mars, Jupiter, Pluto, and Titan (moon of Neptune) is actually undergoing a measure of global warming with the earth. It is also known that our sun is actually a variable star of ~0.4%. We have a congress that has had a frontal lobotomy:
the truly scary part of global warming regulations is this Spring the government has been deciding on enacting the Climate Security Act, or the Lieberman-Warner Bill. Per the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), the bill would contain mandatory provisions in the name of climate change that would impose a $1.2 trillion global warming tax ($4,000/ person).
So they handed out $1200 to help cope with high gas and food prices caused by Congress. And now they want to get back $4000 to do WHAT?
I know they want to build a sea wall to keep the rising water from going into all the fat cat homes along the coast.
Comments
Let us quit double standards and do what must be done instead of whining before high gas price and doing nothing.
I don't consider the Interstate Highway system a mistake at ALL. Most people in the US are glad we have it and are using it. Many more lower middle class families are able to afford a driving vacation than they would a train or plane vacation because of the highway system. We will need a lot more highways when a good alternative to fossil fuel is mainstream. With cheap nuclear, wind and solar power everyone will have cheap transportation. Kind of like the old "A chicken in every Pot" campaign. Recharge your EV for a 500 mile range for $5 bucks. Get people to spread out across the beautiful country and alleviate the congestion caused by big cities.
In the mean time, I cannot think of two cities in the USA I would want to ride an HST between more than ONCE. I don't think that will justify the expense. EVs for the masses will be the answer to all our problems... :shades:
I might consider a fast train ride from San Diego to Sacramento. I would like to see the Railroad Museum up there. It is one of the best in the world. I don't think I will still be around to ride that route. So we may just bite the bullet and buy the gas for the trip up there in the Sequoia.
I had to take CA history when I was in college (35 years ago) and curiously STILL had the book and read back up on it. As we went through the museum it almost plugs in to some of the themes of the railroad museum.
The book 1969/1973 "California An Interpretive History" 2nd edition (Professor) Walton E. Bean.
Truly the Railroad Museum is a slice of the story of the westward migration.
Why stop there? After all, humans are a large source od Co2 emissions, right. Why not just require a government permit to exhale? Think of the GHG that can be stored in people's lungs.
Of course we would have to start with the rich because they breath more air than the rest of us.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
June 2008 the 8th warmest on record
NOAA: Eighth Warmest June on Record for Globe
July 16, 2008
The combined average global land and ocean surface temperatures for June 2008 ranked eighth warmest for June since worldwide records began in 1880, according to an analysis by NOAA’s National Climatic Data Center in Asheville, N.C. Also, globally it was the ninth warmest January – June period on record.
Global Highlights
* The combined global land and ocean surface temperature for June 2008 was 60.8 degrees F, which is 0.9 degrees F above the 20th century mean of 59.9 degrees F.
* Separately, the global land surface temperature was 57.2 degrees F, which is 1.3 degrees F above the 20th century mean of 55.9 degrees F.
* The global ocean surface temperature was 62.2 degrees F, which is 0.7 degrees F above the 20th century mean of 61.5 degrees F.
* For the January – June period, the combined global land and ocean surface temperature was 57.1 degrees F, which is 0.8 degrees F about the 20th century mean of 56.3 degrees F.
Other Highlights
* Northern Hemisphere Arctic sea ice extent for June 2008 ranked third lowest for June since records began in 1979. Southern Hemisphere Antarctic sea ice extent for June 2008 was above the 1979-2000 mean, ranking as the second largest June extent.
Interesting that since 1979, there were two more years with less arctic sea ice than this year. Wonder what years?
We're also had enough precipiation, but I suspect that was only because AlGore approved it because someone blessed his funds by buying carbon credits!!!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
By the way the HOAX is thinking we can buy our way out of any climate change. The climate changes we change with it. If we don't we die. Very simple even for me to understand.
So, where are they going to dispose of all the waste wind? And what about all the poor folks downwind of the wind?
As near as I can tell, they are going to spend $4.9 billion for 13,000 megawatts of wind power.
Numbers are all over the map, but it seems that the cost of a 1,500-megawatt nuclear plant is around $9 billion. And I don't think that number includes waste management.
10 years ago I would have guessed that all the massive headlines would have been about solar, not wind.
Having seen the Big Dig road-project financial cost double several times during the project, I'm guessing this will cost around $20B and be about 5 years late. The wind project will be worth it, if the systems are low maintenance and have a long-life.
To keep costs down and provide rehabilitation and skills, I'd like to suggest we all petition our reps. to use our 2 million prisoners to build the equipment, and install it. Time to give up the weights and TV.
I think that wind has become the eco energy of choice. The issue will be getting locations that are consistently windy and not an eyesore to the locals. Wind for big power. Solar for individuals if they ever get the price reasonable. Solar has not advanced nearly as well as wind generation. Wind blows 24 hours a day in some places. Sun at best is half the year with loss for clouds. I am just as surprised as you are. I remember that mess along Interstate 10 going toward Palm Springs. Most of the generators were broke and laying flat on the ground.
This company is putting a Solar POWER PLANT in the California desert and are going to generate enough power for 1 million Cali homes. The have done their testing as Sandia Labs in New Mexico.
Awesome Technology
Sandia, Stirling Energy Systems set new world record for solar-to-grid conversion efficiency
31.25 percent efficiency rate topples 1984 record
Sandia and Stirling Energy Systems set new world record for solar-to-grid conversion efficiency. The record establishes a new solar-to-grid conversion efficiency of 31.25 percent. The old record, which has stood since 1984, was 29.4 percent.
ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. —On a perfect New Mexico winter day — with the sky almost 10 percent brighter than usual — Sandia National Laboratories and Stirling Energy Systems (SES) set a new solar-to-grid system conversion efficiency record by achieving a 31.25 percent net efficiency rate. The old 1984 record of 29.4 percent was toppled Jan. 31 on SES’s “Serial #3” solar dish Stirling system at Sandia’s National Solar Thermal Test Facility.
The conversion efficiency is calculated by measuring the net energy delivered to the grid and dividing it by the solar energy hitting the dish mirrors. Auxiliary loads, such as water pumps, computers and tracking motors, are accounted for in the net power measurement.
“Gaining two whole points of conversion efficiency in this type of system is phenomenal,” says Bruce Osborn, SES president and CEO. “This is a significant advancement that takes our dish engine systems well beyond the capacities of any other solar dish collectors and one step closer to commercializing an affordable system.”
See a hi-res photo:
Big Pretty Photo Link
P.S. Gary - One of their power plant projects is in El Centro and contracted for a 20 year purchasing agreement with SDGE.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
This has already come up in the Northwest on a very windy day. Bonneville did not want to shut down a turbine in the hydro system and the Wind people wanted to sell all they could produce. Who gets screwed? You cannot save it for the night or a calm day. You have to build to satisfy demand 24/7. Makes for interesting discussion.
SDG&E during the last heat wave had plenty of reserve. I think they were worried up around LA.
The guys who made THIS picture are the most dangerous of all of them though !!!
The American Physical Society, an organization representing nearly 50,000 physicists, has reversed its stance on climate change and is now proclaiming that many of its members disbelieve in human-induced global warming. The APS is also sponsoring public debate on the validity of global warming science. The leadership of the society had previously called the evidence for global warming "incontrovertible."
In a posting to the APS forum, editor Jeffrey Marque explains,"There is a considerable presence within the scientific community of people who do not agree with the IPCC conclusion that anthropogenic CO2 emissions are very probably likely to be primarily responsible for global warming that has occurred since the Industrial Revolution."
Not all that glitters is gold...
Wednesday, March 12, 2008
One of SDG&E's largest renewable projects has so far failed to materialize. Stirling Energy Systems, a Phoenix-based solar developer, has a contract with SDG&E to build 300 megawatts of solar energy in Imperial County. That's enough to power almost 200,000 homes. If successful, the venture could triple in size, powering as many as 600,000 homes. But the project, which would use mirrored dishes to focus the sun's energy on a small engine, has shown little progress since being announced in 2005.
Then you have your typical government roadblocks to progress in this state especially.
San Diego Gas & Electric will not likely meet a state-mandated goal to get 20 percent of its electricity from renewable energy sources by 2010, making it the only state utility to admit that it expects to fall short of the green-energy mandate.
SDG&E has agreements with developers of renewable energy sources and has hundreds of megawatts under contract -- enough to provide 13 percent of its total supply. But many of those projects are not built and are not providing green energy to San Diego. The company blames delays in its application process to secure state approval of the Sunrise Powerlink, a $1.3 billion, 150-mile transmission line it has proposed between San Diego and Imperial County.
It is the same old story. You got one enviro wacko group pushing unrealistic mandates, while another enviro group blocks the progress.
The articles displays Christopher Monckton struggling to downplay GW.
This is the same person who was quoted in the Telegraph article linked by Gary.
Mr Moncton is a high profile GW sceptic and I understand that his views may draw sympathy from some oil-addicted people.
I would be careful though before naming GW a myth.
Even the article linked by tidester added an update :
Update 7/17/2008: After publication of this story, the APS responded with a statement that its Physics and Society Forum is merely one unit within the APS, and its views do not reflect those of the Society at large.
I could say one year ago I did not care about it. The more I read about it, the more I see it is a serious issue demanding action.
I am thinking it will be a bit more than "slightly". They are already issuing warnings over natural gas prices this winter in our state. The NE is bracing for very high heating oil costs. Diesel and RUG are at record levels. Inflation is increasing.... I really think the people on the lower income levels are going to be in trouble.
And if you look at the headlines from around the world you can see that people are struggling.
http://energyshortage.org/
I'm not suggesting that it is all doom and gloom, just that high energy prices and shortages will put the breaks on economic activity and indirectly slow emissions of CO2.
It would be interesting to see the number of tons of CO2 saved as people switch to smaller vehicles.
In order to stop a coal mine fire you need to plug all the gopher holes. No fresh air, no fire.
T. Boone is trying to distance himself from Al Gore, calling his wind plans a way to get away from foreign oil. Al wants to go 100% green with electric power in a decade. (link)
There's some interesting charts at this blog - says that cars and trucks use over 50% of the oil burned in the US a day. Oil for electricity is way down on the list. (The Big Future)
Does Al Gore really believe the crap that spews out of his mouth? NO Fossil fuel in a decade. California has a 20% mandate for renewable electricity by 2012. They will be lucky if any of the power companies meet that. And he thinks we will be 100% by 2018. I will make a wild guess that we will still be at least 50% coal generated electricity in 10 years. Maybe no one told big Al the BLM is holding up new solar generation farms on Federal land for at least 2 years. They have to do environmental impact studies. We will be very luck to have 30% renewable in 10 years.
T Boone's plan shows practical logic. I would get behind him ahead of ANY POLITICIAN IN THE USA. He knows how to get things done in an orderly manner.
1) they can increase Oil independance
2) They are good for CO2 and other environmental issues
3) They are a tremendous growth relay as other fossil fuels based technologies reached their limit.
The main downsides are :
1) nead heavy cash and long term payback
2) need political support
3) Only work when implemented (i.e talking a lot about and doing nothing does not work)
The problem is I don't see the US clearly taking action towards clean technologies. If US keeps the current trend and enacts a few cosmetic "look, I-am-doing-something" laws (55 mph nationwide, super tax on oil companies..)
1) There won't be serious CO2 production drop (except from recession induced)
2) US will go deeper into recession
3) more oil wars to come
If we could separate ourselves from the ad hominem for just a moment then perhaps you might care to elaborate on precisely where you think the skeptic is wrong?
I would be careful though before naming GW a myth.
It may or may not be myth but there is precious little science in it despite the hoopla and political frenzy. Historical data directly and clearly contradicts the premise of global warming theory and the modelling is almost laughable in its utter lack of sound science. The IPCC is a purely political organization and its charter precludes it from even considering anything but man made contributions to an imagined problem.
The more I read about it, the more I see it is a serious issue demanding action.
Then you need to broaden your horizons a bit. Here are some Summer selections for your reading pleasure:
"The Deniers" - Lawrence Solomon
"An Appeal to Reason: A Cool Look at Global Warming" - Nigel Lawson
"Blue Planet in Green Shackles" - Vaclav Klaus
All come very highly recommended.
Yes, we must remember that.
That is the interesting thing about competing technologies, you can never be sure which one will win. I think we did have a hint that wind was going to do well, however. Denmark has been getting over 10% of their electricity for a number of years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark
The other unknowns are siting issues, water issues or even how the public or regulators will receive whatever you are trying to build.
Some of you may have heard that ND might get a massive wind farm.
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D91I18E03.htm
"North Dakota's biggest wind developer is proposing a $2 billion wind turbine farm in the west-central part of the state. It would be capable of generating 1,000 megawatts of electricity."
Ironically, there is concern about building the wind turbines over coal deposits (that are surface mined). Last I heard, they might be OK.
And yes, North Dakota will no longer be the open prairie. We will be full of; wind turbines, oil rigs, coal power plants, coal mines, coal to liquid plants, ethanol plants, elevators, and the occasional bison. :surprise:
Recently, when I drove by the large Garrison dam I noticed hundreds of flags on the dam face. Each represented a gopher hole. Apparently they first poison the gophers. Later they get kids to run around with pails of dirt to fill in the holes. Now you know what kids do here at summer camp. If your kids get out of line just threaten to send them to summer camp in ND.
You are right, it is not good to discuss people but better to discuss ideas.
One of the most visible aspect of Global warming is the obvious disappearance of the Arctic Ice cap (including that of the Greenland)
The theory Mr Monckton supports is that the Medieval Warm period was much warmer than as described by the IPCC charts and that the temperatures were much higher at that time than today's
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00629/news-graphics-2006- -_629636a.gif
This is very different from the compilation of 10 reconstructions from various sources
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2000_Year_Temperature_Comparison.png
As I could not get any reference for the chart supporting Mr Monckton's theory, I am left to believe that this chart is very likely to be speculative.
>The IPCC is a purely political organization and its charter precludes it from even considering anything but man made contributions to an imagined problem.
http://www.ipcc.ch/about/index.htm
We are in disagreement over this. I find their views pretty balanced and I praise their will to remain as objective as possible.
>Here are some Summer selections for your reading pleasure:
I don't think I am the only one in need to broaden one's horizons.
I am in China, not easy to get those titles. Will look into it back in France.
"Chevron refinery project approved"
by Katherin Tam
link title
I'm sure no one is going to dis Al Gore in here again.
@Avalon02, I wonder if those are prairie dogs? Windmills have been around the west for decades too, just like the ones I'm sure you've seen on the prairies, all used for pumping water to fill the stock tanks. I remember looking at them driving cross country in my younger days and rarely saw one actually running. About ten years ago I toured the experimental wind farm on PEI and none of their mills were working worth a flip either.
I guess I'm still partial to solar since you don't have to be tied to the grid in most locations to run your house. If people think solar and wind farms are visual eyesores, wait until we have high tension power lines going everywhere. Those things cause cancer, right?
Will steal a lot of power requirements from coal-fueled power plants:
Winds of Change
In a move that could be a financial boon for the Big Country, state regulators approved a plan Thursday to build a massive grid to transmit wind power from gusty West Texas and the Panhandle to energy-thirsty metropolitan areas.
The Texas Public Utility Commission's action opens the door for construction of a far-reaching web of transmission lines that, when completed at a cost of nearly $5 billion over four or five years, would be able to handle enough wind-generated electricity to power more than 4 million homes. The electricity will go to some of the state's most populous areas, including Dallas, San Antonio and Houston.
Paying for the PUC plan would add roughly $4 per month to residential customer bills after construction is completed.
Passage of the plan is "a real big deal," said Sweetwater Mayor Greg Wortham, who also heads the West Texas Wind Energy Consortium. "It's good for Abilene, good for Sweetwater, good for the region."
Good, in fact, for the entire state of Texas, Wortham said.
"This will bring billions more dollars of investment to Texas in the form of wind equipment, construction, local revenues and jobs," said Susan Williams Sloan, spokeswoman for the Washington, D.C.-based American Wind Energy Association.
And one of the least visible (in terms of media hype) aspects is that the central part of Greenland's ice sheet is growing in thickness. It is the same with Antarctica. We see one little portion where the glaciers are falling into the sea but the reporting fails to mention that the total mass of the ice cap is increasing. What we are seeing is a continuation of 20,000+ years of global warming and evershifting weather patterns.
I find their views pretty balanced and I praise their will to remain as objective as possible.
Balance? This is straight from the charter: "Its role is to assess on a comprehensive, objective, open and transparent basis the latest scientific, technical and socio-economic literature produced worldwide relevant to the understanding of the risk of human-induced climate change, its observed and projected impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation." And Rajendra Pachari seems to be on a personal mission to indict humanity.
I don't think I am the only one in need to broaden one's horizons.
My horizon is the scientific validity of climate change theory. When science is supplanted by politics then we should all worry. Scientifically speaking, climate change theory is seriously flawed.
I think TX will lead the nation on renewable energy. They are not bogged down with as many groups that control the state governments as on both coasts. TX after Alaska has the least need for an alternative to fossil fuel. Yet they are pushing the right direction. I am still not sold on solar panels as they exist today. It sounds like that Sandia system is faltering in production. They have left SDG&E in a bad position. That and all the bureaucratic holdups on land acquisition in the viable regions for renewable energy. It is going to be an uphill battle in states like CA.
100% renewable in 10 years. Must be some great drugs available when you got $100,000,000 to spend. What a joker. :confuse:
My response to that:
Common sensibly speaking, something is DEFINITELY going on, something unusual, which has gotten worse in the last 25 years. The fact that man's contribution CANNOT BE ELIMINATED from the possible contributable causes means GW requires more study and should not be poo-pooed.
'S'all I'm Sprayin'.
It is not the so called deniers or skeptics, that do not want further study. It is the "Man Made GW Cult" that claims it is a done deal no further study needed. That is what the word consensus means. Done, finished, no more studies. Yes there is always something going on with the Earth. We have hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis etc etc. I have read articles by these GW fanatics that has blamed all of those things on man. No wonder a growing percentage of the population are saying wait a minute here. Add to that these flaky political types that see an opening to further tax the people and they jump on the bandwagon like fleas on a dog.
Oh if anyone is interested I have $100,000 worth of "A" grade carbon credits for sale. These are not some cheap Mango trees that will be DOA.
Sorry, but that's not even close. Common sense dictates that if what we see today is indistinguishible from natural variability over the eons then there is probably nothing unusual about today. 25 years? I call that cherry picking.
The fact that man's contribution CANNOT BE ELIMINATED from the possible contributable causes means GW requires more study and should not be poo-pooed.
The problem is that "proponents" generally tend to stifle and suppress ANY discussion and they certainly do not want further study. The mantra is still "the debate is over" which is silly, of course, and anyone attempting to question the science is in denial. Surely, you're aware of that.
Following the information provided by "current trends" is not "Cherry Picking." It's called "using the most current applicable data." At this point, I don't really care about someone ignoring the "current trends." I will not do so. Regardless of how many times you want to say it DOES MATTER, climate events which happened 150 years ago or 3000 years ago are not NEARLY important as what is happening RIGHT NOW.
I will not ignore it, and neither will THESE guys:
Anyone who thinks warming is "harmless or helpful" is flat wrong
Among the report's findings:
• Warmer temperatures will produce more extreme weather conditions, triggering floods, more intense storms, longer droughts and extended hot-weather seasons.
• People will feel the effects beyond the immediate weather events. Water and airborne diseases could spread more quickly and more people could develop asthma or other pulmonary ailments. Deaths related to heat and declining air quality will climb rapidly among the most vulnerable: the young, elderly and poor.
• Climate change will hit hard in locations and among populations least-prepared to adapt. People in Boston or other Northern cities, for example, often lack air-conditioning and will suffer during heat waves.
• The economy will suffer. Dealing with the effects will strain government budgets and could hurt tourism. The report predicts widespread losses to cold-water fisheries and other recreational amenities.
For the Western USA, the report foresees a hotter, drier future. Culling research from a growing number of climate researchers, the EPA scientists said climate change would disrupt the critical runoff cycle that provides water to millions of people.
Warmer winters shorten the snow season and send water into streams too early or hasten its evaporation. The Phoenix area relies on runoff from the Colorado, Salt and Verde rivers for about two-thirds of its annual water needs.
The shorter winter could also trigger an earlier wildfire season, which, in turn, would spew more soot into the air.
The disrupted runoff cycle may cause more serious problems than the EPA report predicted, according a separate study released this week through Purdue University.
That study used more detailed models and found that earlier snowmelt actually leads to even warmer temperatures, which then keep snow from accumulating in the mountains. The researchers believe the effect could reduce the amount of snow and runoff twice as much as earlier thought.
"If these projections become reality, then the ecosystems of the northern and central Rockies will undergo dramatic changes," said Gregg Garfin, one of the study's authors and a deputy director at the UA institute.
So, NATURALLY OCCURRING or not, the warming is NOT GOOD NEWS for many parts of the USA and the world in general.
I think that is teriffic. The best thing about a project like that is that it doesn't require that some poor guy working at Mickey D's to sell his first born to pay for it.
It might even be far enough away that the Kennedy's won't object.
Up here in the northeast, every time someone proposes a wind farm some fat cats and the NIMBYs come out of the woodwork and stop it.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
It most certainly is cherry picking. 25 years on the scale of global climate change is far too short to be called anything but transitory. And if your focus is really limited to two and half decades then you'll have a hard time convincing anyone of trends since the last 10 years of that period have been either flat or slightly decreasing in terms of "global temperature." I am just amazed at how people casually dismiss physical processes that have been in play since forever and latch on to a climatological Rorschach test.
I will not ignore it, and neither will THESE guys:
THOSE guys have created a fantasy. Yes, by analogy, given that an asteroid will strike the Earth there will be serious consequences. But that avoids the question of whether there will be a strike and whether we caused it. They also ignore any possible benefits of global warming. It's called alarmism. And, oh, did I mention that the EPA is a political organization that stands to benefit from that alarmism?
Believe what you want but the science just isn't there.
I live in 2008. I fully understand that what is happening now is more important than what happened to my great great grand-daddy.
I hope others on the board see my point, unlike you Tidester.
Remember the Rampart Dam controversy? - besides claims that it would change the climate of interior Alaska, opponents said it could trigger quakes in an already seismically active state.
'Earthquake risk' from dams (BBC)
Thanks for the laugh and the proof that you refuse to learn anything. What you are saying is don't try to confuse me with the facts.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I.e., "the debate is over." Where have we heard that before?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
It isn't like sail ships are not an unproven transportation method. Christopher Columbus, Vikings, and the Chinese and (whomever) all have discovered the new world aka (USA) with them.
I know there are many Indian ruins throughtout AZ and into Mexico, and the old Incan Empire. Those civilizations were abandoned, and it is postulated that it was due to severe drought and heat. So since there really wasn't any man-made GW then, we can conclude these sorts of things are probably natural. Though its not good news, at least we know we can't do much about it and can continue to drive our automobiles as we want. Soon we'll just drive up to Canada and Alaska, and settle in those vast unspoiled areas.
In fact, if you have been following this thread since I came here, you will find out that I have gone from "the debate is over" to "we need to know more."
That's not inflexibility of stance, my friend.
Facts don't confuse me at all.
I love optimism. Life is so much nicer when you dwell on the positive and reject all the negativism around you.
How about the warming that is occurring on several of the planets in our solar system? I had no idea GM was selling SUVs on Mars.
According to NASA temperature sensing instruments Mars, Jupiter, Pluto, and Titan (moon of Neptune) is actually undergoing a measure of global warming with the earth. It is also known that our sun is actually a variable star of ~0.4%.
We have a congress that has had a frontal lobotomy:
the truly scary part of global warming regulations is this Spring the government has been deciding on enacting the Climate Security Act, or the Lieberman-Warner Bill. Per the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), the bill would contain mandatory provisions in the name of climate change that would impose a $1.2 trillion global warming tax ($4,000/ person).
So they handed out $1200 to help cope with high gas and food prices caused by Congress. And now they want to get back $4000 to do WHAT?
I know they want to build a sea wall to keep the rising water from going into all the fat cat homes along the coast.
You are very "out of left field" sometimes, Gary, I gotta tell ya.........
Those "anti-A/C" folks never lived through a Phoenix Summer. They would get laughed out of town around here.....:)