While the recent posts have been off topic, it is a nice refreshing change. The topic is very old and has been beaten to death in other posts and as always it has been reduced to everyone vs Toyota. I wanna hear from some Hombre freaks!!
I have a hypothesis that so many forums seem to come down to this.
People who bought a Toyota paid more money. They have a inate psychological need to justify their purchase to others and/or themselves. All of us do in some way or another. You can see yours by filling in the blank: "I bought my truck because _______"
Arguments then develop due to the means of their justification because they usually subjective and a lot of differing opinions exist.
If you bought a Ford, you can say that it is inexpensive. If you bought a Dodge, you can say that it's bigger and has a V8. If you bought a Nissan, you can say that you bought a low-priced import. If you bought an S10, you can say... well, Chevrolet makes the Vette. (Just kidding). If you bought a Mazda/Hombre, you can say that you purchased a cheaper version of the Ranger/S10 with better standard warranties.
The Taco's strength's (off-road ability and reliability) are impossible to quantify and involve many variables. Hence, the arguments (and these message boards).
gooba, I couildn't give a crap. We have enough links in here as it is and people still try and dispute those. Look it up yourself after you pray to the Toyo god.
One of those links would be the Edmunds Full Size SUV test I posted for you. There is a Offroad expert in there that espouses on the many offroading virtues of the Cruiser.
mod, Sorry...I didn't mean to spew false facts just that Toyota made a very similar vehicle to the FJ-40 so close that I thought it was.
For what's worth the Crocidile Hunter episode I saw last night on Animal Planet was driving a Nissan, but in his earlier episodes he had a Hi-Lux w/a flat bed.
I know this is certainly off topic(this will play right in the hands of the domestic truck owners)but, I was thinking how much would an American truck cost in one of these 'Third' world locations? Who would fix them? Maybe these are reasons that we don't see them out there...And if they(domestic vehicles) are so crappy why do so many end up in Mexico and S. America...against the knowledge of their owners(maybe just looks, huh?)
When I was in Costa Rica last fall, about all I saw were Toyotas, Kia's, Hondas, and a few other imports.
I did see a few domestics, though. The first Chevy dealer had just opened shop the prior year in San Jose (the only major city). I got the feeling they were more expensive than the Asian imports from talking with my guides. I saw a couple of Ford trucks. They were obviously well taken care of and looked to be driven by the more affluent members of society (saw one drive out of this really nice mansion). A Ford? Go fig. I guess if there aren't many of them they're unique...
Why would I pray to the Toyota god? You made the following statement:
Gooba, I work for the State Deparment in Washington D.C. Toyo has many contracts with National dignitaries and heads of state all over the world. Ford and Chevy have contracts with numerous local and federal police departments. Sorry.
That was in response to my asking spoog to provide something to support his claim that the UN uses Toyotas mainly. He has posted something but that does not have anything to do with the UN.I did look at the contracts at the UN and the majority of those were to Renault.There were some Toyota as well as others.
Why would I pray to the Toyota god? You made the following statement:
Gooba, I work for the State Deparment in Washington D.C. Toyo has many contracts with National dignitaries and heads of state all over the world. Ford and Chevy have contracts with numerous local and federal police departments. Sorry.
That was in response to my asking spoog to provide something to support his claim that the UN uses Toyotas mainly. He has posted something but that does not have anything to do with the UN.I did look at the contracts at the UN and the majority of those were to Renault.There were some Toyota as well as others.
You may be right with a few here CT, but I see an excessive amount of Toyota bashing and that brings me into a defense mode sometimes and I think that's the real problem. Maybe they're attacking Toyota in response to a few people in particular but they have to lighten up. Why do you think that there's a need to try and trash Toyota by some as much as possible? There's lots of good trucks out there and they all have their strong and weak points. I'd rather hear about those things from these people rather than have them constantly try to find negative info on the Toyota and trash it. I like my Toyota a lot but I recognize that it's not the best truck for everyone and isn't superior in everything.
Well, i have been taking it easy for awhile but you are right about the same old dead topic of bashing each others truck. Everyone likes to bash toyota. Why??? because toyota builds trucks that last and have a high reliability rating. Ford now offers the suv ESCAPE. Great reviews and a nice sporty look to it. Ford is not all bad! But tacoma beats ranger in every category. MY $0.02 CENTS
I like the Escape, especially with the 3L Duratec. Very nice engine. I've got the 2.5L H.O. Duratec in my SVTour. However, I wouldn't buy any vehicle its first year of production. That goes double for Ford. Lately, they've been having intro problems on some of their new models.
As for reliability, I generally get bored with any vehicle quickly and trade often. For $300, I'd bet that I've at least equaled the Taco's street performance. I only do some light off-roading, so off-road performance had little bearing. I'm in the snow a lot, and the Ranger handles it very well (most of this depends on tires, tho).
So, it came down to the Ranger, S10, and Tacoma in the end. The Nissan didn't have its V6 out yet (and I didn't want to wait a couple months or more). The Dakota's 3.9L V6 is terrible. I didn't want/need a V8 and extra costs. The Tacoma was almost 5,000 more and didn't personally offer me any more than the Ranger or S10. I ended up going Ranger after past experiences with GM and Ford. The Ranger also had a nicer cab (hey, it's what you look for at least 90% of the time the vehicle is in your eyesight).
So, the Ranger was the best truck for me. I don't regret my decision a bit.
The perfect truck for you would be an AWD Lightning...how many times have you thought(dreamed)about that? If they made that you probably wouldn't be on this page any more...right? Who knows....
Where's my checkbook?!? Oh, that's right! Where's the wife's checkbook?!?
I wouldn't hesitate a minute to head down to the Ford dealership for an AWD Lightning!
I've asked a couple of times about the supposed SVT Ranger (aka Adrenalin) down at the Ford dealership. They haven't heard anything yet. It's supposedly a Ranger with either a supercharged V6 (probably the SOHC 4L), a 4.6L V8 out of the Mustang GT, or the 3.9L V8 out of the Lincoln LS.
But, here's the kicker! It might be AWD, something similar to the Control Trac on the Explorer.
Now THAT, or that AWD Lightning, would be the perfect truck(s) for me!
The Ford Escape is actually a Mazda developed vehicle. Does that bother any of those that only buy domestic? Granted it is a Ford just not American engineered.
I saw recently that Lincoln is planning a new pickup. They haven't even got the Blackwood in production yet and they are looking at a model that looks like it might be a variant of the Sport Trac. It sound tho that there were enough differences that the 'media experts' acted as if this was an all new vehicle. It would be real interesting if they added the 4.6L like the Explorers are going to start getting.
The Escape was a joint effort by Ford and Mazda. Since Mazda is pretty much own by Ford, no big deal. A lot of the American vs. Europe vs. Japan/Korea is overblown. The big discussion will be when China decides to build cars. That is when I get militant about country of origin. It is bad enough that we already have so many products made by their slave labor camps.
I dont think it is a big deal at all, but read that it was actually developed by Mazda. I just wanted to hear the domestic purist's opinion.
I know some foreign companies do the same but it seems like domestic auto manufacturers take the idea of taking a vehicle and putiing multiple nameplates on them to the extreme. Does this really broaden the market enough to justify all the overhead of Mercury, Oldsmobile, Plymouth?
You wanna know what I think is a huge hunk of junk if you plan to do any sort of moderate off-roading...that Honda CRV and the Toyo Rav 4. They're probably great for soccer moms and all, but 2 kids up the street from me just got those Honda CRV's and they're all like, "Dude, let's all go 4 wheeling". One of them was pretty deflated when I told him his CRV was basically a Honda Civic with a different body. Check out the suspension on one of those things next time you see one on the road. It looks like it would snap going over a speed bump.
\\You wanna know what I think is a huge hunk of junk if you plan to do any sort of moderate off-roading...that Honda CRV and the Toyo Rav 4.\\
Totally. The Escape falls into this category as well. Car and Driver had a comparison test on this a year back, and the Rav4 fared right behind a Jeep Wrangler, but it's still not meant for offroading.
No low range, ect. But the rav4 does have decent clearance, more than a Ford Ranger.
You're going to laugh(because I am right now), but the only one of these mini utes that is even worthy of going up a dirt driveway is the Sportage. At least it's not a uni-body and has a true frame...more rigid. Both the Rav4 and the CRV are way over priced for what you get!!!!
The Escape/Tribute are a JOINT venture between Mazda/Ford. Its all over the internet, Mazda didn't dominate, neither did Ford. The Toyota RAV4 is a car based mini-SUV, just like the CRV, and Escape/Tribute. All these are fine for light offroading, like rocky/bumpy logging roads and such. Although, the Escape/Tribute with a V6, will totally smoke any RAV4 or CRV in acceleration, skidpad, lateral acceleration you name it.. Ford/Mazda did their homework here, as much as the Ford haters wish they didn't. The Escape/Tribute will outsell the CRV RAV4 combined hands down in the coming years.. The only one I would truely offroad in would be the Nissan Xterra. Spoog, a solid diff is better than an independent diff. I know you didn't know because you don't offroad, proof again. And I notice you don't mention how the Tundra got slammed by Edmunds in the full size truck comparison.
There's anew RAV4 this fall. Totally redesigned. New engine, blah,blah blah. The RAV4 and Escape are kinda like the Ford Rangers of the Mini-ute world.
Even though I bash the Ranger(deservedly so), that new optional chrome stick whift with the 8 ball shifter is just COOL. Ford gets kudos on that one.
Spoog, a solid diff is better than an independent diff. I know you didn't know because you don't offroad, proof again.
This is based on what? A fully indepndent suspension is by far the best off road.You get better traction throughout all kinds of terrain,by keeping all of the wheels on the ground.
My question was to spoog and his unyielding belief in Toyota's offroad philosophy.
The Tacoma/Tundra use IFS front ends the Cruiser uses a solid front end. Which is better? The L/C available here is not what Toy sells for "the extreme environments".There's L/C's for troop carriers for bush country, with diesels and equipment not available here. When's the last time you saw a Cruiser with a snorkel in a US Toyota showroom?
I will absolutely agree Ford or the big 3 do not cater to that "Arctic expedition crowd" but I don't think Toy does either with their US offerings.
OH, I agree the US Toyota's are "baby-fied" compared to their overseas cousins, and it pisses me off. But they are still the same basic design, and light years ahead of other US truck makers in offroad.
Now the Tundra, thats a different beast. It was developed primarily to be a light to medium duty truck with good highway manners. BLAH.
IF I WANT GOOD HIGHWAY MANNERS I WILL GET A FREAKING CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
DO TRUCK MAKERS UNDERSTAND THAT????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Sorry for the rant. But as the years pass, trucks get more and more dumbed down.
Give me a Toyota LAndcruiser with cloth seats, AC, cruise, sunroof, snorkel, Part time 4wd, roll up windows, and rubber floors.
I agree with your post above, except the light year comment. I agree on your Tundra view. That is why I've questioned your offroad philosophy statements. Toy is in to marketing as much as any one. I guess the bottom line, without ranting and all, is you think Toy is so far above everything and while I think they're good vehicles they aint all that.
I laugh everytime I'm behind a CRV and I see the skinny little axles and the open-air differential that looks like it came off of a go-cart.
I agree with you spoog about trucks and "highway manners." As an SUV owner, I'm really disappointed with the direction that SUV's are going. they're totally abandoning the truckiness of them and making them overly "luxury" oriented and highway oriented. I overheard a car dealer bragging about how the new pathfinders handle like Cadillacs. I don't want my truck to handle like a cadillac! yuck. this is probably the reason that I'm now shopping for a pickup instead of another SUV.
Give me the independent diff any day!!! OK, what are the advantages of a solid diff???? Yes, even i would buy the ford lightning if it was 4-wd! But i doubt it will even get to the drawing board anyway.
One thing that is true is that those toys from 81-88 had cancer in the bed. My 86 just rusted away. I tried to fix the cancer but just got worse. From 89- the bed improved so much better now. Now basically all of the beds last longer than before.
Comments
People who bought a Toyota paid more money. They have a inate psychological need to justify their purchase to others and/or themselves. All of us do in some way or another. You can see yours by filling in the blank: "I bought my truck because _______"
Arguments then develop due to the means of their justification because they usually subjective and a lot of differing opinions exist.
If you bought a Ford, you can say that it is inexpensive. If you bought a Dodge, you can say that it's bigger and has a V8. If you bought a Nissan, you can say that you bought a low-priced import. If you bought an S10, you can say... well, Chevrolet makes the Vette. (Just kidding). If you bought a Mazda/Hombre, you can say that you purchased a cheaper version of the Ranger/S10 with better standard warranties.
The Taco's strength's (off-road ability and reliability) are impossible to quantify and involve many variables. Hence, the arguments (and these message boards).
Just my $.02
And YES the new ones are ugly.
You have blown my idiot-response meter.
Sorry...I didn't mean to spew false facts just that Toyota made a very similar vehicle to the FJ-40 so close that I thought it was.
For what's worth the Crocidile Hunter episode I saw last night on Animal Planet was driving a Nissan, but in his earlier episodes he had a Hi-Lux w/a flat bed.
I know this is certainly off topic(this will play right in the hands of the domestic truck owners)but, I was thinking how much would an American truck cost in one of these 'Third' world locations? Who would fix them? Maybe these are reasons that we don't see them out there...And if they(domestic vehicles) are so crappy why do so many end up in Mexico and S. America...against the knowledge of their owners(maybe just looks, huh?)
I did see a few domestics, though. The first Chevy dealer had just opened shop the prior year in San Jose (the only major city). I got the feeling they were more expensive than the Asian imports from talking with my guides. I saw a couple of Ford trucks. They were obviously well taken care of and looked to be driven by the more affluent members of society (saw one drive out of this really nice mansion). A Ford? Go fig. I guess if there aren't many of them they're unique...
Gooba, I work for the State Deparment in
Washington D.C. Toyo has many contracts with
National dignitaries and heads of state all over
the world. Ford and Chevy have contracts with
numerous local and federal police departments.
Sorry.
That was in response to my asking spoog to provide something to support his claim that the UN uses Toyotas mainly.
He has posted something but that does not have anything to do with the UN.I did look at the contracts at the UN and the majority of those were to Renault.There were some Toyota as well as others.
Gooba, I work for the State Deparment in
Washington D.C. Toyo has many contracts with
National dignitaries and heads of state all over
the world. Ford and Chevy have contracts with
numerous local and federal police departments.
Sorry.
That was in response to my asking spoog to provide something to support his claim that the UN uses Toyotas mainly.
He has posted something but that does not have anything to do with the UN.I did look at the contracts at the UN and the majority of those were to Renault.There were some Toyota as well as others.
But, I guess you sending me a check would be out of the question???
:^D
Lately, I've just ignored the bashing and moved on. There's pleanty of better stuff to talk about.
I've even stopped myself just before hitting the "Post" button and deleted my response.
I think that brand/vehicle bashing is either due to insecurity about their purchase or retaliation to some bash that they've taken personally.
:-D
Got PayPal???
As for reliability, I generally get bored with any vehicle quickly and trade often. For $300, I'd bet that I've at least equaled the Taco's street performance. I only do some light off-roading, so off-road performance had little bearing. I'm in the snow a lot, and the Ranger handles it very well (most of this depends on tires, tho).
So, it came down to the Ranger, S10, and Tacoma in the end. The Nissan didn't have its V6 out yet (and I didn't want to wait a couple months or more). The Dakota's 3.9L V6 is terrible. I didn't want/need a V8 and extra costs. The Tacoma was almost 5,000 more and didn't personally offer me any more than the Ranger or S10. I ended up going Ranger after past experiences with GM and Ford. The Ranger also had a nicer cab (hey, it's what you look for at least 90% of the time the vehicle is in your eyesight).
So, the Ranger was the best truck for me. I don't regret my decision a bit.
I wouldn't hesitate a minute to head down to the Ford dealership for an AWD Lightning!
I've asked a couple of times about the supposed SVT Ranger (aka Adrenalin) down at the Ford dealership. They haven't heard anything yet. It's supposedly a Ranger with either a supercharged V6 (probably the SOHC 4L), a 4.6L V8 out of the Mustang GT, or the 3.9L V8 out of the Lincoln LS.
But, here's the kicker! It might be AWD, something similar to the Control Trac on the Explorer.
Now THAT, or that AWD Lightning, would be the perfect truck(s) for me!
Hey, maybe one of each! It's only money..hehehe
Hey you guys,
I was surfing tonight chack this site out...pretty good idea! www.getbedbugs.com
I know some foreign companies do the same but it seems like domestic auto manufacturers take the idea of taking a vehicle and putiing multiple nameplates on them to the extreme. Does this really broaden the market enough to justify all the overhead of Mercury, Oldsmobile, Plymouth?
No low range tho.
Neither does the Rav 4.
if you plan to do any sort of moderate
off-roading...that Honda CRV and the Toyo Rav 4.\\
Totally. The Escape falls into this category as well. Car and Driver had a comparison test on this a year back, and the Rav4 fared right behind a Jeep Wrangler, but it's still not meant for offroading.
No low range, ect. But the rav4 does have decent clearance, more than a Ford Ranger.
The Toyota RAV4 is a car based mini-SUV, just like the CRV, and Escape/Tribute. All these are fine for light offroading, like rocky/bumpy logging roads and such. Although, the Escape/Tribute with a V6, will totally smoke any RAV4 or CRV in acceleration, skidpad, lateral acceleration you name it.. Ford/Mazda did their homework here, as much as the Ford haters wish they didn't. The Escape/Tribute will outsell the CRV RAV4 combined hands down in the coming years..
The only one I would truely offroad in would be the Nissan Xterra.
Spoog, a solid diff is better than an independent diff. I know you didn't know because you don't offroad, proof again. And I notice you don't mention how the Tundra got slammed by Edmunds in the full size truck comparison.
New engine, blah,blah blah. The RAV4 and Escape are kinda like the Ford Rangers of the Mini-ute world.
Even though I bash the Ranger(deservedly so), that new optional chrome stick whift with the 8 ball shifter is just COOL. Ford gets kudos on that one.
diff. I know you didn't know because you don't
offroad, proof again.
This is based on what? A fully indepndent suspension is by far the best off road.You get better traction throughout all kinds of terrain,by keeping all of the wheels on the ground.
The Tacoma/Tundra use IFS front ends the Cruiser uses a solid front end. Which is better? The L/C available here is not what Toy sells for "the extreme environments".There's L/C's for troop carriers for bush country, with diesels and equipment not available here. When's the last time you saw a Cruiser with a snorkel in a US Toyota showroom?
I will absolutely agree Ford or the big 3 do not cater to that "Arctic expedition crowd" but I don't think Toy does either with their US offerings.
But they are still the same basic design, and light years ahead of other US truck makers in offroad.
Now the Tundra, thats a different beast. It was developed primarily to be a light to medium duty truck with good highway manners. BLAH.
IF I WANT GOOD HIGHWAY MANNERS I WILL GET A FREAKING CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
DO TRUCK MAKERS UNDERSTAND THAT????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Sorry for the rant. But as the years pass, trucks get more and more dumbed down.
Give me a Toyota LAndcruiser with cloth seats, AC, cruise, sunroof, snorkel, Part time 4wd, roll up windows, and rubber floors.
I agree with you spoog about trucks and "highway manners." As an SUV owner, I'm really disappointed with the direction that SUV's are going. they're totally abandoning the truckiness of them and making them overly "luxury" oriented and highway oriented. I overheard a car dealer bragging about how the new pathfinders handle like Cadillacs. I don't want my truck to handle like a cadillac! yuck. this is probably the reason that I'm now shopping for a pickup instead of another SUV.
Everything down to larger brakes, 6 lug nut wheels, clutchstart cancel switch, gold plated starter plates, ect ect
The rest are just today's version of soccer mom minivans on steroids.
I just cringe and run away when I see a 5000lb vehicle being piloted at 90mph by someone (male or female) engulfed on a cell phone conversation.