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Jeep Liberty Diesel EGR Problems

steverstever Posts: 52,462
Replaced your EGR? More than once? Talk to Chrysler about it?

If you're not too exhausted thinking about this recirculating issue, talk about it in here. :D
«134

Comments

  • I have a 2005 Liberty CRD (diesel). I was very happy with this vehicle,
    Despite seeing all the problems posts on this and other forums until 21000 miles when my CEL light came on. I took it to the shop and had them do the 35K service since it was in. They called me and told me it needed EGR replacement so by the time they got the part in and replaced it my Jeep was in the shop for a week.

    When I picked it up it took 3-5 seconds to start and I should have said something right then but I had plans to be somewhere. Once I got on the highway I noticed that it seemed to shake, hesitate and stutter intermittently at steady cruising speeds. When I got home the dealership had already closed and I called back the next day and made an appointment for the following week. During that week it continued to run rough and died several times on the highway and in town.

    Now it has been in the shop for two days and they are doing diagnostics with no idea what is wrong and no ETA for a fix. When I asked about loaner car they told me that Chrysler does not provide loaner cars unless they are specifically authorized. Well the conversation with Chrysler was frustrating to say the least and I got nowhere.

    The rep would not give me a name of a manager or anyone to write a letter to and would not acknowledge any sort of problem only saying that this repair was covered under warranty and that any decisions of future repairs would be addressed on a case by case basis, unless there was a recall. However she could not help me until the warranty has run out nor authorize a loaner car or rental assistance. Basically she implied that unless there was a recall I was going to be SOL after 36,000 miles.

    I am not naive enough to think that this problem is "recallable" but after I have seen many posts on people having excessive problems and would like to compile a list of people who have this problem to send in writing to Chrysler. My hope is that we can get some kind of credit or a formal extension of the warranty on this item so that we will not be paying for EGR replacement every thousand miles once the basic warranty expires.

    If we could document all of those of you have experienced EGR failures within the warranty period along with VIN perhaps Chrysler would acknowledge this problem.

    THis problem is so public that it is even mentioned in Popular Mechanics Nov 2006 long term review, yet the "customer assistance" staff at Chrysler refuse to acknowledge or do anything. See the summary of PM's long term review at http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4199769.html
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    Did the dealer change your fuel filter? If so make sure it was bled of air properly. To do this, with the engine off pump the hand primer on the fuel filter housing till you feel resistance increase, then turn the silver bleed fitting to bleed off the pressure. Hold a rag at the fitting to catch the discharged fuel. Tighten the fitting and repeat the process until you have a nice stream of fuel with no air. I hope this helps.
  • Thanks - I agree that this could cause the symptoms I am having and it did get changed as part of routine service but one would think that they would know to do that when they changed it. I will call them tommorrow and ask - hopefully they wont be too "smart" with me.

    The latest update is that after conferring with the tech hotline they were told to ask me if I was using Biodisel as that could casue it - (obviously just looking for an excuse as it ran fine when I dropped it off and prior to EGR replacment). It was still on the same tank of gas that it came in with when it started running bad (as soon as I picked it up) and I also refilled it in the 1 week I had it back with diesel from a high volume BP station, so it is vewry unlikely to be a fuel quality problem, but a filter or line with air in it I suppose could caus this problem...but that still doesnt explain the problem Popular Mechanics or many other owners have had.
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    ncmountians1: I think I have posted this information 6 times already, so I will state it again. The main reason the EGR goes out it the PCM! Unless the PCM is replaced at the same time the next EGR will go out as well. At Yark Jeep in Toledo, Ohio, right across the street from the Jeep Liberty factory, the CRD tec's name is Dan. Have your dealer call them, Dan has told DCX and they (DCX) knows this, but does not tell the Tec's that the PCM must be replaced when replacing the EGR.
    If I were you I would be rather irate! We are not allowed to post phone numbers on the forum, but I am sure you know how to get a phone number.
    Hope this gets you back to running fine. The problem you have is the main reason that the CRD's have the problems they do....Tec's are ignorant, because of the poor communications between STAR and the Tec.

    Good Luck.

    Farout
  • Thanks they did replace the PCM at the same time - but I suspect the did not program it properly. When I spoke to them on Thursday evening they told me that they had done a bunch of the diagnosis and the EGR was fine but that the
    computer" wasn't recognizing it and they were not successful in being able to program it. Apparently the tech was going to a "Chrysler Diesel performance class" in Charlotte on Friday and was going to take the PCM to the instructor to try and figure out what was wrong and why it wouldn't except the programming. I have not called yet today for a status update.

    At this point my vehicle has been out of service for 16 days (without a loaner or any offer of reimbursement) due to this problem. We are approaching the 20 days for the lemon law to kick in...
  • mdamickmdamick Posts: 277
    I had the CEL come on after having the fuel filter replaced and not enough fuel put in it.
    I could get it to go out by bleeding it for a while but then it came & stayed on.
    Took to dealer and was told that the EGR Flow Control Valve had failed. $520+ install. I said no thanks. They also reprogrammed the PCM & TCM.
    It ran better than ever for a while, but then it was very doggy off the line and would blow clouds of black smoke.
    I finally got my hand up inside and disconnected the EGR valve.
    The CRD comes off the line like any other car and then the turbo kicks in. Very nice to drive now, wish it was like that from day 1.
    I still need to open the dash & pull the CEL lamp out as it is annoying.
    MPG is 23-25+ now.
  • nescosmonescosmo Posts: 453
    Mdamick.... I thought that the egr valve and its components were part of the emission warranty, find out if it is.

    Nescosmo.
  • Well my Jepp is still in the shop. THey have toaled to Chrylers tech line (and also a couple of other dealerships) that have seen these problems. Now they have ordered (and are waiting on some sort of fuel pressure regulator".

    Has anyone else tried to contact CHyrsler Jeep customer service at the 1-800 number posted on the owner area of the Jeep website and asked them if they plan to do anything about this?

    I tried calling again this morning...

    When I asked the questions many different ways (specific and open ended) as to whether Chrysler would do anything for me I got a repeated "You'll have to do that on your own sir" and a refusal to give out any names or let me talk to a supervisor.

    So much for "customer assistance"....
  • zoomy2zoomy2 Posts: 50
    I'm in the club now!! At 29K my engine light came on and I when to the dealer and they said EGR valve failure. This Saturday they are replacing the unit. Service manager said about 1 1/2 hours. This is the second issue with my 2005. The first issue was the transmission filter draining and have to be refilled before it would move. At least its still under warranty. I drive about 25K per year.
  • Well I'm sorry to hear that. Did you ask them what would happen if you had 36,001 miles and what it would cost?

    This is why I am looking for Chrysler to acknoledge the problem and do something for us.

    Make sure the replace the PCM at same time. Hopefully they'll do it right and you won't be out of a vehicle for days or weeks.

    -
  • mdamickmdamick Posts: 277
    At 53000 miles it is not, unfortunately.
    The Emissions warranty covers catalytic converter and powertrain control module.
  • crdfancrdfan Posts: 10
    Just had my 6th EGR valve replacement 3 weeks ago at 29K! DC so far is refusing to buy it back. I just sent out letters to the CEO's of Chrysler, let you know if they respond. :cry:
  • That is just insane!

    What kind of excuses have you recieved as to the problem? how many days has it been out of service and did they provide a lonaer each time?

    Please let us know.

    Thanks!

    P.S. Mine has been in for 17 days now on a single problem, in additon to 5 days the first time.
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    crdfan: I read you note with amazement. Our CRD at 24,500 miles is getting the EGR replaced tommrow. I am having the Dodge dealer do the work, as my normal Jeep dealer said on the phone that the malfunction light on was NOT the EGR valve. I could not trust that and went to the Dodge dealer whom I have known from 2002. They tested it and said a circuit was the cause, and I was ok to drive it until the EGR came in. Most others I hav4e heard of have had to wait a week or better for the EGR valve. Not only that but they were told there was a back order on the EGR's. Well this Dodge dealer said ther was 17 EGR's valves in St. Louis, MO, and the part would be hers in 36 hours. So we have it put in tommrow.
    I had thePCM replaced at 18,000 miles I think. The Tec said not to use ANY additives such as PS Cetane booster, and to stay with the Mobile 1 0-40w. For the last 7,500 miles I have used Shell Rotella T 5-40w, and the last 4 tanks of fuel I used the PS Cetane booster. It just is not worth the inconvience. That and not to use anything higher than B-5.
    I wonder if you have followed the Lemon Laws guide that came with your Owners Manual? The procedure is very specfic, and it does work. But if you have more than 15,000 miles on the CRD it might make it very hard to make it work, as you are charged so much a mile for what you have used. I think your selling dealer would help you out to some extent as they just might well help you into a different vehicle.
    About 2 months ago New2diesel got his bought by another dealer,but because the dealer could not get the CRD to run right the buying dealer had to get involved too. Somehow New2diesel, got $15,000. US for his jeep, and that's not good at all.
    What kind of fuel, oil, have you used? How many miles do you have on your CRD?
    Ther has to be something you can do if you really have had 6 EGR's replaced. Something just is not right. Are you sure they really changed the EGR out? Did you see it done?
    I feel sorry for you, and hope you are able to get the help you need. Have you called the Better Business Bureau, that is an option against the selling dealer.

    Farout
  • crdfancrdfan Posts: 10
    I had to have a lawyer do the process on the lemon law going on 1 year. The dealership and the DC area rep said they couldnt help. This is by the way my 8th Chrysler car I have owned in the past 10 years. I have been told DC does not want to admit to anything and they try to wait you out. I have had all my services done at the dealership and on time. Now I am having problems with the transmission going from reverse to drive, the engine will occassionally cut off. I have waited almost 3 weeks for an EGR valve before. So far I have had it in the shop for over 30 days total and the last EGR valve did come in the next day, so they must be stocking up on them.
  • 06 CRD down for 21 days. Dealer or chrysler would not help w/ rental even though I had 100k extended warranty. Now EGR bad and 800 dollar repair. DO not buy one of these vehicles. Chrysler does not have this diesel fiqured out yet. I'm sick and tell everyone I can not to buy one of these.
  • CRDFAN,

    At what point did you contact a lawyer(how long ago) and what is he telling you?

    Under NC lemon law if a vechicle is out of service for a problem for more than 20 days it should be bought back. Mine has been out for 30 days total now (latest update from Chrysler (on Friday) is that they are going to replace fuel injectors and the dealership is waiting on parts. I am planning on sending a registered letter today requesting buyback as at this point it seems they have no idea what is wrong and are just continuing to throw parts at it, while I am without my vehicle.
  • What happened - this forum is about as quiet as the buyback department at Chrylser - havent heard anything from them since I mailed my buyback request (signature required) over a week ago. They cant seem to find the K.May that signed for it.

    Meanwhile the dealership has now also drained the fuel tank, replaced fuel injectors with no sucess - latest is they are waiting on a cam sensor? Still not fixed - that's over a month in the shop straight...while supposedly following all the advice of the CHryler experts on the tech line...

    Anyone had any more problems or any success on a buyback?

    CRDFAN - any success on your buback?
  • jottijotti Posts: 2
    New here & Need advice. Have 2005 Liberty CRD with same story: First engine code for EGR with <500miles on vehicle - service found nothing, cleared code. Engine code very next day, found service bulletin, replaced EGR. Code again, replaced EGR again. At 6 months, stalled/sputtered/rattled/black smoke during acceleration onto freeway - turned off/on & was ok - no code & service found nothing. At one year, stalled/sputtered/rattled/black smoke again during acceleration onto freeway. Turn off/on same symtoms, continued to drive home (late at night), finally engine light came on. Towed to dealer, found same EGR code, turbo air hose blown off, oil in air filter. Service cleared code, replaced air filter and reconnected air hose. Yesterday it stalled out AGAIN during acceleration onto freeway, no engine code this time. Towed vehicle to service, found nothing. Let Service know that I have absolutely no confidence in this vehicle because it is extremely unsafe... max speed of vehicle was 40-50mph in 65mph zone! Was then asked what resolution I was seeking. I told them that I want to KNOW that this vehicle will NEVER stall out again.... was immediately taken to customer relations and informed that I should initiate "arbitration" for a customer buyout by Chrysler and they gave me a number to call.... they also told me that success in my request for a buyout would be highly unlikely.

    Have researched CRD problems most of today, found the Popular Mechanics article and faxed it to the service dept... was told that they received the fax but that they were not aware of any problems and did not have access to the internet. (They also report having no other customers with this same problem... I'm "the only one!" As of now, they have found absolutely nothing wrong with the vehicle and continue "in the process of diagnosing the problem."

    Advice/comments would be helpful. Am contemplating NC Lemon Law, but understand that I need them to try fixing "the same problem" 3 times and fail all three times before I can officially file?
  • Jotti - where in N. Carolina are you? What dealership are you using? I dont' know how many days yors has been in the shop but I would reccomend that you send off a certified letter with a signature required ASAP as per the procedure in your owners manual.

    "Customer ASSistance" offer no assistance at all and I have found that unless you find a Chrysler executive willing to talk to you you will not have any success. At least if the letter is on file you should have recourse if it occurs again and is not fixed in a timely manner. I have found that "Customer ASSistance" will not release or acknowledge your phone or web reports.

    Even my internal contact at Chrysler is having problems with the buyback department not returning her internal calls.
  • jottijotti Posts: 2
    Dealership is MorganJeepDodge in Durham, NC. This most recent problem occurred yesterday, vehicle towed to dealership last night, so today is day 1... that is, for this most recent event. I don't care to risk another...

    Thanks for the info re writing an official letter. My owner's manual is still in the liberty; I'll go by and pick it up tomorrow for more info. Just curious, and sorry if this is a stupid question, but customer assistance would acknowledge their own service records/reports, wouldn't they??

    You mention an internal contact at DCX, is there not an official means of contacting someone?? Cartalk recommends contacting "the big enchilada" and lists chairman Dieter Zetsche as THE DC contact.... found this info today during my massive search for more info on this. will look more tomorrow...

    thanks!
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    You have to have your Jeep bag and follow the LEMON LAW guide book for your state anf follow that EXACTALLY. At best it will more than 3 weeks, I would think.

    Farout
  • Jotti,

    Chrysler would have to acknowledge written service order from your dealer (how could they deny that) that you have copies of BUT (and I was shocked to see how bad they are) when I called the 1-800 number they publish they would not release the record of my calls or web emails to the customer assistance center, and their responses to me once I decided to ask for some kind of compensation for my car being in the shop twice for over a week on warranty issues.

    The official means of contacting does not give out a name and despite my repeated requests to the Customer ASSisstance line reps I got repetive ASSinine replies like "You'll have to do that on your own sir" (they must have a script).

    They would not let me speak to a supervisor, give out any names or even tell me what I found in the owners manual. Even when I asked for the VP of customer assistance's name they would not tell me. Obviously a culture of don't accept any personal responsibility for keeping the customer happy and never give out a name that belongs to a real person who could actually be contacted again and pestered, or be held accountable for an answer or committment.

    Bascially the attitude I got was too bad for you - its your problem not ours.

    Dealership support from Mountain Chrysler Jeep in Forest City, NC was also NON EXISTENT. The service department told me that told me that they did not have any contacts or influence at Chrysler and when I called the salesperson that I had bought the vehicle from she just transferred me back to the service department. Emails to the General Manager of the dealership and to the owner were not responded to. If I ever buy another Chrsyler product it will definetly not be at that dealership.

    Having dealt with European and Japanese manufacturers dealers for my other vehcicles I was always offered a loaner for any warranty repairs. They offered NOTHING and told me it was up to Chrysler and for me to contact them.

    BTW if you dont have the manual because the Jeep is in the shop they are available on the JEEP website. That's where I had to go since I wasnt going to drive 30 miles to the dealership just to get the address.

    GOOD NEWS UPDATE - I received a phone call today confirming that they are going to do a buyback although I dont have the terms yet, the next closest dealership also confirmed to me that they recieved paperwork today and I can come out an pick out a new vehicle. Teere was no way I was going to buy again from Mountain Jeep Chrsler in Forest City since they offered me no support in my dealings with Chrysler. I am hoping a Cummins will be more reliable (looking at a RAM 2500 although I might just test that new Wrangler 4 door).
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    mcmountains: You just might want to look at the rebate scheduel aon the Jeep web site. There are several with $4,000. and some with $4,500. and if you are a Vet or active service member you get $500. more. I would caution you what ever they offer, see if they might give you something for your inconvience. Like an extended warranty oe free service for a year. It never hurts to ask. I have a feeling with the recent TC recall this just may bring a few more buy backs in the near furture.

    Farout
  • crdfancrdfan Posts: 10
    I am finally in the process of a buy back. My lawyers didnt have anything to do with it, I finally contacted DC myself with letters to the CEO and CFO, someone listened. I am waiting on the offer now that I have sent in the info they requested.
  • I encourage (and wish luck to) everyone contacting Chrysler TRYING to get a buy back. After 40+ problems and several weeks in the shop for various problems I filed a CA lemon law complaint re my then new 1997 Dodge Diesel truck. The case was "dismissed" after some German guy from Daimler Chrysler contacted the hearing board right before the hearing date and told them everything had been resolved. This guy had never spoken to me, the problems had not been resolved and no one from D-C even contacted me. When I protested the unilateral dismissal I was told I could re-file but the board was not sympathetic.
  • I hope that dealer is providing you with a loaner vehicle. My Liberty puked the torque convertor and had to have the whole trans flushed and all the lines and trans cooler replaced. They had it for about six days and I was given a vehicle the whole time. My 2005 as a diesel was eligible for a two year, vehicle loan agreement as part of the purchase. If you didn't get one, ask your salesperson why not.
    Sounds to me as if your dealer has not properly diagnosed the problem. Ask them to show you the results of the diagnostic tester. Mine threw ghost codes on the instrument panel light and finally they figured out it needed the NEW egr valve that has a different coating on it and that seems to keep it from sticking. There is new software that should be installed as well and mine has been troublfree ever since. On the interstate if I stay at or below 72mph I can see the overhead show 27-29mpg depending on the wind.
  • The dealership (Mountain Chrysler Jeep Dodge) refused to give me a loaner saying it was up to Chrysler. After many calls to Chrysler (and over the first week out of service) Chrysler agreed to provide me a lonaer which I picked up at the dealership. I dorve the lopaner - a base ford tuarus) for a month and a half until my buyback was completed the day after Christmas.

    I dont know what they are doing with my Jeep but it is a shame as I loved the vehicle until the problems started. Also for what I lost in depreciation in the buyback I could have been driving a Porsche for the last year. I had planned on keeping this vehicle for a long time but am now gald to be rid of my problems. My new Prius gets much better gas mileage (47.8 in first 1000 miles) and I will use my old F-250 for the rare times I need to tow.

    Best of luck to all of you here with your problems and dealings with Chrysler.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    My 2005 CRD Limited is just south of 15K miles and is running quite nicely. I have had a few repairs including (recently) the EGR valve. All repairs have been done in a timely manner and I have not needed to go back for remedial work for any repair/recall. The repairs include a software update (682 miles), ruptured hose between the turbo and aftercooler (about 5.2K miles)and the EGR replacement (14.3K miles), plus two recalls, ball joint and F37. Total time in the repair shop for all of these, about six days.

    A big part of why people are having issues with their CRD's is that the dealership service department is so poor and that the dealership management does not care. That is where most of the problems lie. The CRD is a solid little SUV and for those of you who have had unresolved issues that is truly sad.

    As to the EGR failure, domestic LSD fuel was the culprit. The CRD's engine and emissions systems were designed to run on EU quality diesel which is S30 or better and with a cetane rating of 51 or better. Domestic fuel has a cetane rating in the low 40's and that also contributes to problems. In a small way, I can blame Daimler-Chrysler for not doing more extensive testing of the CRD emissions components using our rotten domestic diesel fuel.

    This little SUV has a pretty good reputation in Europe and the engine maker, V.M. Motori also has a very good reputation. That reputation is being stained by American laziness and greed.
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    winter2: I am not sure the issues are because of "American laziness and greed". You know that some of these CRD owners have done everything according to DCX and still have the same issues. I FEEL DCX USED UNSUSPECTING CUSTOMERS TO PURCHASE THESE "TEST MARKET VEHICLES". There was not even the slihtest hint that these vehicles were just a test to see how us Americans would buy diesels.

    farout
  • Winter2,
    I've always enjoyed reading your posts and consider you straight-up on your responses. However, there have been a few of us that have put 51 cetane, high quality diesel (and then 51 cetane ULSD when available) from day one and still have had to replace the EGR, EGR Control Valve, and still had to put the truck back in the garage for 2 recalls and 1 other warranty fix ABOVE the normal maintenance pitstops.

    How many times has my wife's 140k+ mile minivan been in the shop during this entire shameful period? ... that's easy... oil changes only

    The Jeep dealership winces when he sees me? Not because I've given him a hard time (he's actually been VERY nice and understanding), quite the contrary.

    He winces because Jeep gave him a POS to sell...
    ...and we both know it.

    Too bad, I went against everything my Dad ever taught me in buying THIS Jeep. I feel douped and that makes it all the more painful. Of course DCX will rack it up to lack of public interest in selling these rigs when in reality I'll just be driving a Ford, Chevy or holding my nose to buy a Honda or Toyota (they both have American plants).

    Sorry to vent, I've everything humanely possible (above and beyond what a normal person really know what to do) to keep this POS out of the service garage and I can't. To say I am a bit frustrated would be mild understatement so please don't take this personal.

    We'll be going back to the garage again tomorrow for P1276 and P0651....whatever the hell that is.

    :mad:

    Boiler
  • My CRD also ran very well and no problems till they replaced the EGR at 21K - I hope yours continues running well, but I feel that the problem was software or mechanic related. They dont have the EGR stuff in Europe and it appears that they dont know how to handle it here.

    Whether it is poor training or product design/testing I am not sure - but it sure is a shame they couldn't get it right.

    I hope the new CRD Grand Cherokee has been better tested or engineered - I thought about this option but didn't want to chance going through the headaches on what might be a test market and experiment with Chrysler again...

    Best of luck....and I hope the new USLD solves the problem for those =who will own one...
  • nescosmonescosmo Posts: 453
    Boiler.... It is sad that we always blame the vehicle and how bad is doing, but in reality is the dealer. My friend has a nissan and it took the dealer three time to fix the front end and the last time took them 1 1/2 week to fix it.
    My CRD has work very good, only the EGR valve gave me problem one time. I do not like dealers because every time that i go to them i have to go back for something else.
    I am afraid to take the extended warranty because i do not know if i will keep the jeep or not but if i do maybe i will try to fix it myself; EGR i will clean it, Parts will be the problem to get them.

    Nescosmo
  • Well I feel bad that I bit winter2's head off. One of the codes was because the air intake doghouse was not re-attached properly. The other was a glow plug for cylinder #4.

    They're not perfect but I cannot blame the dealers. Nothing they did (or do) should affect that glow plug. Now they will have to jerk out the transmission and make a judgment call of how pany parts BESIDES the torque converter they will have to replace. They also had little to do with the EGR, MAF or EGR control valve.

    IMO, DCX made us guinea pigs without our knowing. Now I must decide whether I am to remain a lemming because I 1.) like the vehicle, 2.) am now up-side down thanks to resale value or 3.) have enough problems with this one being a known message.

    Boiler
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    boilermaker2: It's been a long time in hearing from you. I read your post's and we are pretty much in agreement. Although the recalls have been more than any other vehicle we have owned in 37 years of marriage. The warranty issues are really even worse, because these trips to the dealer take two trips one to find what the problem requires to fix and then to come back to have the repair done. We have 13 such trips! The CRD engine is a solid engine, as proven by the use in Europe. But, I think (not sure) that what DCX has added here in the US may well be not on the CRD's in Europe. I am thinking that the vehciles here may be the only ones that are totally controled by computer. I am not sure this is the case, but it's a guess, I don't hear of the problems we have being such major problems in Europe.
    I am pretty much thinking if this CRD gives any more recalls or things needing warranty repair between now and when the 2008 Liberty's come out, I will take the Lemon Law all the way no matter what. I like the CRD, but I am not needing a fulltime hobby. How is your CRD doing now?

    Farout
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Farout, the CRD is built to last more than 10 years. Will we still be driving by then?
    European car manufacturers are loosing sales because asian cars are more reliable. Asian cars don't use the same electronic components we use. Do you understand which group I'm pointing to?
    In Europe when you buy a local common rail, you almost know 'by contract' that you will face problems.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    To Boliermaker2 and Farout,

    Let me explain the "American greed and laziness" to you and others here. While I was in FL, I had an oil change done on my CRD. I provided the oil and filter and told the dealer that I expected to see one-half quart of oil on the back seat floor when they were done. Where do you think that one-half quart ended up? Yup, in the crankcase where it did not belong. I made them drain the oil and do it right. Also had the two recalls, ball joint and F37 done in FL. Both dealers tried to sell me services I did not need namely fuel filter (due @ 25K) and differential and transfer case service. In either case, the latter service cost about $350. I am taking it to a local independent shop here in MD who will do the differentials and transfer case service for $160 including the lubricants (all synthetic). I will do the fuel filter myself.

    Farout, you may regret being a guinea pig like some others in this and other forums. You are entitled to feel that way. I however do not. Yes, the recalls and the few other repairs have been an inconvience., but they cost me nothing except a little bit of time. If the CRD is/was an experiment and I am happy to be part of it. I feel that I am helping to pave the way for diesel power to make a come back in this country. I do not feel deceived or duped. I took the risk just like the rest of the CRD buyers in this forum and elsewhere. Nobody put a gun to my head and said you have to buy a CRD and I am sure that this the case for everyone else who owns a CRD.

    As to the EGR valve, I chalk that up to fuel and design. Boiler, you stated that you used 51 cetane ULSD when available. What percentage of the time did you get it? Domestic 51 cetane ULSD is not EU quality 51 cetane ULSD, plain and simple. The EU spec for diesel is quite different than the domestic spec. EGR failures in our CRDs is a design problem (hardware and software) exacerbated by the use of domestic LSD (S500) fuel with a low cetane rating.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    Well I feel bad that I bit winter2's head off

    Did not feel a thing! How did I taste?
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    Caribou,

    Looks like you are pointing to the Bosch people. I heard at one point that their reputation was quite good. Have their products and their quality taken that much of a turn for the bad? If so, that is a shame. I had a 1993 Dodge truck with Bosch injectors and injection controller in it. Had to replace six of eight injectors by 80K miles for leaking fuel. Other than that, it worked well.

    In Europe when you buy a local common rail, you almost know 'by contract' that you will face problems.

    What kind of problems/issues do I have to look forward to?
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Hi winter,
    If you were to go back to 1993 Bosch parts, you would again have this beautiful quality. I was in the bar turning industry when american car manufacturers decided to use fuel injection. Bosch specifications for making injectors were very strict. The chosen manufacturers were the richest ones, those that had invested in quality control and modern machines that were built to match these specifications. I live in the heart of the former bar turning industry area, between Chamonix and Geneva.

    Today every company seeks immediate profit because products change rapidly. It's the same as asking a granny to cook something and comparing to how our kids interpret ate the word 'cooking'.

    We unfortunately share the same issues, perhaps paying more over here.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    Today every company seeks immediate profit because products change rapidly

    This comment is so true.

    So what kind of issues should I be looking forward to? I can think of a few such as injector failure, leaking injection system, controller failure, sensor problems, etc. What are you seeing or hearing? I would really like to know.

    Way back in 1993, it was the second year Chrysler had used port injection from Bosch on this particular engine, 5.2 L V-8. In 1992, the system had a lot of problems and miserable reliability.

    In 1981, my Isuzu diesel car had a Bosch licensed system on it. The distributor pump got a little cranky as it aged and the injectors had to be replaced at 110K miles for internal leaking. What are the Asians using in their diesels. I know Hyundai licenses the 1.5L three cylinder diesel from V.M. Motori, but which injection system do they use?
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    winter2: You bring some interesting points to the dialogue. As near as I can tell, I would guess that you are still working with a descent or fair income. My wife and I both retired and on a modest fixed income. We were told this would be a vehicle that was so much better than the 2005 Liberty Limited we bought just 8 months earlier. That Liberty was loaded. We traded for a Sport with a good deal less of comfort items. In 15,000 miles we had no problems what so ever. In the same amount of miles this CRD was in the shop more than 6 times for warranty and re-flashes, a PCM, an inter cooler hose, and a few other issues. The sales manager was fully aware of our needs and expectations. We do like a good number of things about the CRD Liberty, but......I did not sign to purchase a fulltime hobby, which is what it seems to be. If DCX can't fix the list of 8 problems that we have been told "they never heard of this before", I just don't accept anymore. I would much rather have these fixed than spend my time making a stink over it. Our front passengers window is so drafty you would sware the window was not closed all the way. The speed control has started disengaging again, even on a small little dip. But no one has had this happen before. I know that is not right. We have had it "fixed" four times and it took 6 trips at 65 miles one way to "fix it", STAR does not know what to do! Being totally disabled has some issues that make this back and forth very inconvient, say nothing of waiting 2 hours to be seen and the appointment was made two weeks earlier. 5 to 7 hours sitting in a waiting room with 6 chairs in a 5' x 10' room with 1 candy machine and 1 coke machine and a coffee stand is not an experience I relish more than twice a month, which it has been this last 14 months. I would be pretty satisfied if these 8 things were fixed once and for all. I even like the Tec that works on the CRD, but even he is not happy with the assistance STAR has given him. I have switched to a Dodge dealer that sells a lot of Cumings diesels, think they just might have some better experience that might give them an edge.
    As for taking a risk, I did not believe that DCX would place me at risk when buying this vehicle. I should tell you we bought a 2006 Liberty 3.7 Sport and in almost 9,000 miles there has been not one problem. Most all of our issues with the CRD are related to the engine add on parts, not the block or head.
    I am not going to justify or except being a risk taker, or "Test Market buyer". No one expects to take sub quality vehicles just to be part of an "experiment" as Dr. Z said in a press conference when he announced the Liberty CRD would not be offered on 2007. I do not think I am being unreasonable, I just want what I was told I was buying. Fair enough I think.

    Farout
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    Your points are well taken. Some how I have been lucky enough to have a good dealer with very motivated technicians who are not afraid to push STAR to the limit when they need to do so. I did try the Liberty with the 3.7 and it was a slug in my opinion. I am not a speed demon by any means but found the lack of power (torque) on the highway a bit too unsettling to consider the 3.7. Looks like you have a CRD with a demon or two still on board.

    As for taking a risk, we do that every time we buy something. For your dealer to tell you that this vehicle is more reliable is probably a half truth. If it was bought in the EU and maintained there, that probably would be the case. Even Toyota is not without significant problems. They just settled a multimillion dollar lawsuit (they lost) to cover complaints of engine sludging in properly maintained engines.

    Question. If you had been told that the CRD was for testing purposes as it is now known, would have still purchased it?

    Now for something totally different. Started my CRD this afternoon. The low coolant light came on. Always check to see if there is lots of white smoke when I start it cold. None of that so no head gasket issue. No puddles on the ground and no seepage on any of the cooling system hoses. So what has changed recently? New EGR valve a few weeks ago. Problem(s), two possible. Since the EGR is liquid cooled, it could be leaking internally. If that were the case, I might see some white smoke. Most likely scenario is that when the EGR was replaced, the technician in FL did not purge all of the air from the cooling system properly. Added more coolant (the correct stuff)and a little distilled water. Will watch and if the level again drops, then to the dealer we shall go. I will keep you informed.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    Farout,

    Something struck me at about 3:00 A.M. this morning concerning the cruise control issue in your CRD. The cruise control and rear brake light switch are an integrated unit as far as I recall. That unit should be adjustable and it may be a bit too close to the brake pedal so that every time you hit a dip or bump, it disengages. The other possibility that came to me was that the return spring for the brake pedal might be a bit weak.

    Let me know what you think.
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    winter2: As I write this we are having a very bad ice storm. There is near 3/8 " of ice so far. The TV just said this will be the worst ice storm in our south west Missouri recorded history. The "Green Beast" (our CRD Sport) looks two tone colors Deep Beryl Green and White.
    Thanks for the input on the brake spring and etc. To answer your question about would we have bought it if we had known about the very limited production and or experiment with the CED, NO WAY! I am not a risk taker with twenty eight thousand plus dollars. In fact I do not buy a vehicle without the extended warranty. The CRd has a zero deductable 100,000 mile 5 year max care DCX plan. I have such luck that if there a a bad vehicle in 1,000 new vehicles I would pick it, even though it was brand new. We bought a 1987 Mercury Topaz. This was a car made in Fords end of the model year left over parts. It was supposed to have a 12 gallon gas tank, it came out with a 19 gallon that hung so low there was just a very sort distance between the bottom of the tank and the rear suspension. The Ford Airostar we bought new and in 65,000 miles it needed a needed rings and valves. I maintain all my vehicles even beyond what the owners manual said. So I tend to be on the safe side as much as possible.


    Farout
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Hope your power stays on, and be careful walking around out there!
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Hi winter,
    It's a bit difficult to 'filter out' possible issues being an 'insider' of the EU market. Beyond the simple reputation of robustness and reliability between auto makers, I found a french thesis on the web describing the common rail technology in terms of 'what does this bring' to the customer.

    Here are a few guidelines I extracted:

    - Reliability of a standard PCM technology.
    It's true, we never read about people having to change their controller. They have it re flashed, but seldom replaced.

    - High solicitation of the injectors.
    They have been used for many years on trucks and seem to survive well.

    - High pressure and variation of pressure in the common rail.
    We use a range of pressures between 200 and 1600 Bars (idling to full load). Here, the sealing and regulation of fuel pressure are difficult to maintain over time. This is a possible source of mechanical issues.

    - Tight machining tolerances.
    They are needed for injecting precise quantities of fuel to meet emission standards. Precision has a cost, so spare parts will cost more. Here we have a completely different approach: we don't want to throw away our old parts, perhaps they can be repaired for less money. This is the most discriminating issue.

    - Diesel fuel quality is the only criteria we can rely on for lubrification.
    We use the 'most expensive' types of injectors, seals and regulators of the diesel market. We should not forget the need for special qualification of our diesel technicians. This affects the cost of service and fuel.

    I can personnaly add the need to have reliable sensors, connectors, wiring harnesses that are constantly observed by the different controllers that don't accept any fugitive malfunction and display the famous OBD "error codes". Our recent discussions also highlighted the need for components to be chemically inert, I'm referring to the 'PROVENT' protecting the EGR Air Flow Controller position sender (this flap living in exhaust and oily intake atmosphere).

    Many moons ago I compared this technology to a 'Sword of Damoclès'. I understand from reading Farout's posts he is now experiencing the feeling of a possible financial threat. Can you imagine how expensive this technology becomes when you have a star on the hood instead of the 'democratic' JEEP logo?

    Winter, are you sure this is what you want to buy when you're far from home :confuse:
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Here is the link pointing towards the thesis I referred to in post #51:
    http://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-00069271/en/
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    Caribou,

    Thanks for the response. It is helpful.

    - Reliability of a standard PCM technology.

    I agree with your analysis here. About the only things that will make a controller fail is a nasty voltage surge, too much heat or immersion in water.

    - Diesel fuel quality is the only criteria we can rely on for lubrification.

    Big problem is getting good quality fuel that provides adequate lubrication properties while giving a good clean burn. I would love to use EU spec diesel in my CRD. As it is, finding ULSD in the metro Washington D.C. area has been a problem. Found it easily in southern Florida. Still need to add detergents and cetane improvers to the ULSD. Domestic diesel fuel additive packages are marginal at best.

    Three days ago I stopped back at the local dealer where I purchased my Liberty. Their head diesel technician was telling me about the large amount of sludge found in the CCV system and EGR valve when he has to change them out. I blame a good part of that on the recommended oil, Mobil 1 0W-40, Daimler-Chrysler requires because it has such a high vaporization rate. Since you switched to the Shell Helix oil, has the amount of goo in the Provent decreased? Since switching to Amsoil 15W-40 and their "CJ" rated 5W-40, the aftercooler hoses are nearly free of any oily goo.


    Winter, are you sure this is what you want to buy when you're far from home?


    I have nearly 16K miles on my CRD at this time. Ask me in another 84K miles and I will be able to answer you. If you want an answer based on my own experience with the CRD to this point, I would buy again without hesitation. It has not been perfect, but nothing ever is. I can say with great certainty that I am through with gasoline powered vehicles. They are so totally gutless.
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Winter,
    I bought the "PROVENT" CCV filter but I have not installed it because my engine doesn't have all the sensors yours has.

    I have a basic turbo with a pressure driven wastegate.

    My four main engine sensors are:
    - one to measure the timing (start of injection),
    - one to measure the battery temperature,
    - one to measure the over pressure on the intake manifold,
    - one to measure the fuel pressure on the common rail.

    I use Rotella Helix 5W-40 because it matches our local weather and it's easy to find. I can buy it in department stores :shades:
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