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Jeep Liberty Diesel EGR Problems



  • Winter2,
    I've always enjoyed reading your posts and consider you straight-up on your responses. However, there have been a few of us that have put 51 cetane, high quality diesel (and then 51 cetane ULSD when available) from day one and still have had to replace the EGR, EGR Control Valve, and still had to put the truck back in the garage for 2 recalls and 1 other warranty fix ABOVE the normal maintenance pitstops.

    How many times has my wife's 140k+ mile minivan been in the shop during this entire shameful period? ... that's easy... oil changes only

    The Jeep dealership winces when he sees me? Not because I've given him a hard time (he's actually been VERY nice and understanding), quite the contrary.

    He winces because Jeep gave him a POS to sell...
    ...and we both know it.

    Too bad, I went against everything my Dad ever taught me in buying THIS Jeep. I feel douped and that makes it all the more painful. Of course DCX will rack it up to lack of public interest in selling these rigs when in reality I'll just be driving a Ford, Chevy or holding my nose to buy a Honda or Toyota (they both have American plants).

    Sorry to vent, I've everything humanely possible (above and beyond what a normal person really know what to do) to keep this POS out of the service garage and I can't. To say I am a bit frustrated would be mild understatement so please don't take this personal.

    We'll be going back to the garage again tomorrow for P1276 and P0651....whatever the hell that is.


  • My CRD also ran very well and no problems till they replaced the EGR at 21K - I hope yours continues running well, but I feel that the problem was software or mechanic related. They dont have the EGR stuff in Europe and it appears that they dont know how to handle it here.

    Whether it is poor training or product design/testing I am not sure - but it sure is a shame they couldn't get it right.

    I hope the new CRD Grand Cherokee has been better tested or engineered - I thought about this option but didn't want to chance going through the headaches on what might be a test market and experiment with Chrysler again...

    Best of luck....and I hope the new USLD solves the problem for those =who will own one...
  • nescosmonescosmo Posts: 453
    Boiler.... It is sad that we always blame the vehicle and how bad is doing, but in reality is the dealer. My friend has a nissan and it took the dealer three time to fix the front end and the last time took them 1 1/2 week to fix it.
    My CRD has work very good, only the EGR valve gave me problem one time. I do not like dealers because every time that i go to them i have to go back for something else.
    I am afraid to take the extended warranty because i do not know if i will keep the jeep or not but if i do maybe i will try to fix it myself; EGR i will clean it, Parts will be the problem to get them.

  • Well I feel bad that I bit winter2's head off. One of the codes was because the air intake doghouse was not re-attached properly. The other was a glow plug for cylinder #4.

    They're not perfect but I cannot blame the dealers. Nothing they did (or do) should affect that glow plug. Now they will have to jerk out the transmission and make a judgment call of how pany parts BESIDES the torque converter they will have to replace. They also had little to do with the EGR, MAF or EGR control valve.

    IMO, DCX made us guinea pigs without our knowing. Now I must decide whether I am to remain a lemming because I 1.) like the vehicle, 2.) am now up-side down thanks to resale value or 3.) have enough problems with this one being a known message.

  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    boilermaker2: It's been a long time in hearing from you. I read your post's and we are pretty much in agreement. Although the recalls have been more than any other vehicle we have owned in 37 years of marriage. The warranty issues are really even worse, because these trips to the dealer take two trips one to find what the problem requires to fix and then to come back to have the repair done. We have 13 such trips! The CRD engine is a solid engine, as proven by the use in Europe. But, I think (not sure) that what DCX has added here in the US may well be not on the CRD's in Europe. I am thinking that the vehciles here may be the only ones that are totally controled by computer. I am not sure this is the case, but it's a guess, I don't hear of the problems we have being such major problems in Europe.
    I am pretty much thinking if this CRD gives any more recalls or things needing warranty repair between now and when the 2008 Liberty's come out, I will take the Lemon Law all the way no matter what. I like the CRD, but I am not needing a fulltime hobby. How is your CRD doing now?

  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Farout, the CRD is built to last more than 10 years. Will we still be driving by then?
    European car manufacturers are loosing sales because asian cars are more reliable. Asian cars don't use the same electronic components we use. Do you understand which group I'm pointing to?
    In Europe when you buy a local common rail, you almost know 'by contract' that you will face problems.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    To Boliermaker2 and Farout,

    Let me explain the "American greed and laziness" to you and others here. While I was in FL, I had an oil change done on my CRD. I provided the oil and filter and told the dealer that I expected to see one-half quart of oil on the back seat floor when they were done. Where do you think that one-half quart ended up? Yup, in the crankcase where it did not belong. I made them drain the oil and do it right. Also had the two recalls, ball joint and F37 done in FL. Both dealers tried to sell me services I did not need namely fuel filter (due @ 25K) and differential and transfer case service. In either case, the latter service cost about $350. I am taking it to a local independent shop here in MD who will do the differentials and transfer case service for $160 including the lubricants (all synthetic). I will do the fuel filter myself.

    Farout, you may regret being a guinea pig like some others in this and other forums. You are entitled to feel that way. I however do not. Yes, the recalls and the few other repairs have been an inconvience., but they cost me nothing except a little bit of time. If the CRD is/was an experiment and I am happy to be part of it. I feel that I am helping to pave the way for diesel power to make a come back in this country. I do not feel deceived or duped. I took the risk just like the rest of the CRD buyers in this forum and elsewhere. Nobody put a gun to my head and said you have to buy a CRD and I am sure that this the case for everyone else who owns a CRD.

    As to the EGR valve, I chalk that up to fuel and design. Boiler, you stated that you used 51 cetane ULSD when available. What percentage of the time did you get it? Domestic 51 cetane ULSD is not EU quality 51 cetane ULSD, plain and simple. The EU spec for diesel is quite different than the domestic spec. EGR failures in our CRDs is a design problem (hardware and software) exacerbated by the use of domestic LSD (S500) fuel with a low cetane rating.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    Well I feel bad that I bit winter2's head off

    Did not feel a thing! How did I taste?
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801

    Looks like you are pointing to the Bosch people. I heard at one point that their reputation was quite good. Have their products and their quality taken that much of a turn for the bad? If so, that is a shame. I had a 1993 Dodge truck with Bosch injectors and injection controller in it. Had to replace six of eight injectors by 80K miles for leaking fuel. Other than that, it worked well.

    In Europe when you buy a local common rail, you almost know 'by contract' that you will face problems.

    What kind of problems/issues do I have to look forward to?
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Hi winter,
    If you were to go back to 1993 Bosch parts, you would again have this beautiful quality. I was in the bar turning industry when american car manufacturers decided to use fuel injection. Bosch specifications for making injectors were very strict. The chosen manufacturers were the richest ones, those that had invested in quality control and modern machines that were built to match these specifications. I live in the heart of the former bar turning industry area, between Chamonix and Geneva.

    Today every company seeks immediate profit because products change rapidly. It's the same as asking a granny to cook something and comparing to how our kids interpret ate the word 'cooking'.

    We unfortunately share the same issues, perhaps paying more over here.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    Today every company seeks immediate profit because products change rapidly

    This comment is so true.

    So what kind of issues should I be looking forward to? I can think of a few such as injector failure, leaking injection system, controller failure, sensor problems, etc. What are you seeing or hearing? I would really like to know.

    Way back in 1993, it was the second year Chrysler had used port injection from Bosch on this particular engine, 5.2 L V-8. In 1992, the system had a lot of problems and miserable reliability.

    In 1981, my Isuzu diesel car had a Bosch licensed system on it. The distributor pump got a little cranky as it aged and the injectors had to be replaced at 110K miles for internal leaking. What are the Asians using in their diesels. I know Hyundai licenses the 1.5L three cylinder diesel from V.M. Motori, but which injection system do they use?
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    winter2: You bring some interesting points to the dialogue. As near as I can tell, I would guess that you are still working with a descent or fair income. My wife and I both retired and on a modest fixed income. We were told this would be a vehicle that was so much better than the 2005 Liberty Limited we bought just 8 months earlier. That Liberty was loaded. We traded for a Sport with a good deal less of comfort items. In 15,000 miles we had no problems what so ever. In the same amount of miles this CRD was in the shop more than 6 times for warranty and re-flashes, a PCM, an inter cooler hose, and a few other issues. The sales manager was fully aware of our needs and expectations. We do like a good number of things about the CRD Liberty, but......I did not sign to purchase a fulltime hobby, which is what it seems to be. If DCX can't fix the list of 8 problems that we have been told "they never heard of this before", I just don't accept anymore. I would much rather have these fixed than spend my time making a stink over it. Our front passengers window is so drafty you would sware the window was not closed all the way. The speed control has started disengaging again, even on a small little dip. But no one has had this happen before. I know that is not right. We have had it "fixed" four times and it took 6 trips at 65 miles one way to "fix it", STAR does not know what to do! Being totally disabled has some issues that make this back and forth very inconvient, say nothing of waiting 2 hours to be seen and the appointment was made two weeks earlier. 5 to 7 hours sitting in a waiting room with 6 chairs in a 5' x 10' room with 1 candy machine and 1 coke machine and a coffee stand is not an experience I relish more than twice a month, which it has been this last 14 months. I would be pretty satisfied if these 8 things were fixed once and for all. I even like the Tec that works on the CRD, but even he is not happy with the assistance STAR has given him. I have switched to a Dodge dealer that sells a lot of Cumings diesels, think they just might have some better experience that might give them an edge.
    As for taking a risk, I did not believe that DCX would place me at risk when buying this vehicle. I should tell you we bought a 2006 Liberty 3.7 Sport and in almost 9,000 miles there has been not one problem. Most all of our issues with the CRD are related to the engine add on parts, not the block or head.
    I am not going to justify or except being a risk taker, or "Test Market buyer". No one expects to take sub quality vehicles just to be part of an "experiment" as Dr. Z said in a press conference when he announced the Liberty CRD would not be offered on 2007. I do not think I am being unreasonable, I just want what I was told I was buying. Fair enough I think.

  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    Your points are well taken. Some how I have been lucky enough to have a good dealer with very motivated technicians who are not afraid to push STAR to the limit when they need to do so. I did try the Liberty with the 3.7 and it was a slug in my opinion. I am not a speed demon by any means but found the lack of power (torque) on the highway a bit too unsettling to consider the 3.7. Looks like you have a CRD with a demon or two still on board.

    As for taking a risk, we do that every time we buy something. For your dealer to tell you that this vehicle is more reliable is probably a half truth. If it was bought in the EU and maintained there, that probably would be the case. Even Toyota is not without significant problems. They just settled a multimillion dollar lawsuit (they lost) to cover complaints of engine sludging in properly maintained engines.

    Question. If you had been told that the CRD was for testing purposes as it is now known, would have still purchased it?

    Now for something totally different. Started my CRD this afternoon. The low coolant light came on. Always check to see if there is lots of white smoke when I start it cold. None of that so no head gasket issue. No puddles on the ground and no seepage on any of the cooling system hoses. So what has changed recently? New EGR valve a few weeks ago. Problem(s), two possible. Since the EGR is liquid cooled, it could be leaking internally. If that were the case, I might see some white smoke. Most likely scenario is that when the EGR was replaced, the technician in FL did not purge all of the air from the cooling system properly. Added more coolant (the correct stuff)and a little distilled water. Will watch and if the level again drops, then to the dealer we shall go. I will keep you informed.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801

    Something struck me at about 3:00 A.M. this morning concerning the cruise control issue in your CRD. The cruise control and rear brake light switch are an integrated unit as far as I recall. That unit should be adjustable and it may be a bit too close to the brake pedal so that every time you hit a dip or bump, it disengages. The other possibility that came to me was that the return spring for the brake pedal might be a bit weak.

    Let me know what you think.
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    winter2: As I write this we are having a very bad ice storm. There is near 3/8 " of ice so far. The TV just said this will be the worst ice storm in our south west Missouri recorded history. The "Green Beast" (our CRD Sport) looks two tone colors Deep Beryl Green and White.
    Thanks for the input on the brake spring and etc. To answer your question about would we have bought it if we had known about the very limited production and or experiment with the CED, NO WAY! I am not a risk taker with twenty eight thousand plus dollars. In fact I do not buy a vehicle without the extended warranty. The CRd has a zero deductable 100,000 mile 5 year max care DCX plan. I have such luck that if there a a bad vehicle in 1,000 new vehicles I would pick it, even though it was brand new. We bought a 1987 Mercury Topaz. This was a car made in Fords end of the model year left over parts. It was supposed to have a 12 gallon gas tank, it came out with a 19 gallon that hung so low there was just a very sort distance between the bottom of the tank and the rear suspension. The Ford Airostar we bought new and in 65,000 miles it needed a needed rings and valves. I maintain all my vehicles even beyond what the owners manual said. So I tend to be on the safe side as much as possible.

  • steverstever Posts: 52,683
    Hope your power stays on, and be careful walking around out there!
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Hi winter,
    It's a bit difficult to 'filter out' possible issues being an 'insider' of the EU market. Beyond the simple reputation of robustness and reliability between auto makers, I found a french thesis on the web describing the common rail technology in terms of 'what does this bring' to the customer.

    Here are a few guidelines I extracted:

    - Reliability of a standard PCM technology.
    It's true, we never read about people having to change their controller. They have it re flashed, but seldom replaced.

    - High solicitation of the injectors.
    They have been used for many years on trucks and seem to survive well.

    - High pressure and variation of pressure in the common rail.
    We use a range of pressures between 200 and 1600 Bars (idling to full load). Here, the sealing and regulation of fuel pressure are difficult to maintain over time. This is a possible source of mechanical issues.

    - Tight machining tolerances.
    They are needed for injecting precise quantities of fuel to meet emission standards. Precision has a cost, so spare parts will cost more. Here we have a completely different approach: we don't want to throw away our old parts, perhaps they can be repaired for less money. This is the most discriminating issue.

    - Diesel fuel quality is the only criteria we can rely on for lubrification.
    We use the 'most expensive' types of injectors, seals and regulators of the diesel market. We should not forget the need for special qualification of our diesel technicians. This affects the cost of service and fuel.

    I can personnaly add the need to have reliable sensors, connectors, wiring harnesses that are constantly observed by the different controllers that don't accept any fugitive malfunction and display the famous OBD "error codes". Our recent discussions also highlighted the need for components to be chemically inert, I'm referring to the 'PROVENT' protecting the EGR Air Flow Controller position sender (this flap living in exhaust and oily intake atmosphere).

    Many moons ago I compared this technology to a 'Sword of Damoclès'. I understand from reading Farout's posts he is now experiencing the feeling of a possible financial threat. Can you imagine how expensive this technology becomes when you have a star on the hood instead of the 'democratic' JEEP logo?

    Winter, are you sure this is what you want to buy when you're far from home :confuse:
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Here is the link pointing towards the thesis I referred to in post #51:
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801

    Thanks for the response. It is helpful.

    - Reliability of a standard PCM technology.

    I agree with your analysis here. About the only things that will make a controller fail is a nasty voltage surge, too much heat or immersion in water.

    - Diesel fuel quality is the only criteria we can rely on for lubrification.

    Big problem is getting good quality fuel that provides adequate lubrication properties while giving a good clean burn. I would love to use EU spec diesel in my CRD. As it is, finding ULSD in the metro Washington D.C. area has been a problem. Found it easily in southern Florida. Still need to add detergents and cetane improvers to the ULSD. Domestic diesel fuel additive packages are marginal at best.

    Three days ago I stopped back at the local dealer where I purchased my Liberty. Their head diesel technician was telling me about the large amount of sludge found in the CCV system and EGR valve when he has to change them out. I blame a good part of that on the recommended oil, Mobil 1 0W-40, Daimler-Chrysler requires because it has such a high vaporization rate. Since you switched to the Shell Helix oil, has the amount of goo in the Provent decreased? Since switching to Amsoil 15W-40 and their "CJ" rated 5W-40, the aftercooler hoses are nearly free of any oily goo.

    Winter, are you sure this is what you want to buy when you're far from home?

    I have nearly 16K miles on my CRD at this time. Ask me in another 84K miles and I will be able to answer you. If you want an answer based on my own experience with the CRD to this point, I would buy again without hesitation. It has not been perfect, but nothing ever is. I can say with great certainty that I am through with gasoline powered vehicles. They are so totally gutless.
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    I bought the "PROVENT" CCV filter but I have not installed it because my engine doesn't have all the sensors yours has.

    I have a basic turbo with a pressure driven wastegate.

    My four main engine sensors are:
    - one to measure the timing (start of injection),
    - one to measure the battery temperature,
    - one to measure the over pressure on the intake manifold,
    - one to measure the fuel pressure on the common rail.

    I use Rotella Helix 5W-40 because it matches our local weather and it's easy to find. I can buy it in department stores :shades:
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    winter2: I was under the impression that the Fed. EPA required all stations in the US to have the change over by Oct. 15, 06. There are a few stations that have not put on the new sticker on the pump because they have not pumped the required numver of gallons of diesel to the point where they can put the sicker on. Perhaps that may be the reason DC? I don't think the fuel quality is too much of a problem here that I am aware of.
    PBS has a program on "Willy-Bio" As Willy Nelson is involved with others that are producing B-100 from cotton seed oil. From there is goes to a place wich mixes it to sell to stations. Most of the big rigs that used B-20 seemed to be pleased, not by the preformance, but because of the dependance upon foriegn oil is less. I did use B-20 and noticed a loss of fuel mileage and rougher ideling, not a lot but enough to notice. I would use up to B-10 IFthere was a station that carried Bio fuel with in my area. I do agree thatfor a 2.8 L 4 cyclender engine this has the torque to move quick, and the economy that is like that of a compact car.
    My issues are not with the price to maintain the CRD or even the recalls or re-flashes. I am most upset that that when we have a problem few know how to take care of the problem. The replace and elimanate, trial by error method is sorta ok as long as it does not require so much time and the miles it puts on with me paying for the fuel to go back and forth to get the issue resolved. One problem took 5 trips before the problem was resolved.
    Right now everything is covered by 1 to 2 inches of solid ice, here. I doubt anyone on our hill can move, unless they have studs in their tires. So our fuel is lasting much longer than normal, it is now 27 F here, we expecting 4 F tommrow. I just might try starting the
    "green Beast" tommrow to see how it does without the block heater on.

  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801

    I have tried to start my CRD at +9 F sans block heater and it started just fine on the first try. Rather noisy though but that is typical for a diesel.

    I have a better appreciation for your dilemma, namely finding competent service and competent technicians. So far I have been lucky and do have a good service technician who is pretty smart. What I have learned is that when any manufacturer brings a whole new design on line, that there are issues in terms of repairing it right the first time. Even the vaunted Toyota and Honda owners suffer from the same malady with totally new systems.

    Have tried as high as B20 and have experienced no issues in terms of performance or altered FE. Ran quieter though and had less vibration. There are no local stations that sell biodiesel. Closest on is about 25 miles north of here and they have B5. Have used that a few times and the CRD runs fine on that.

    As to the USLD issue, EPA does not require all stations to carry ULSD. Up to 20% of diesel fuel can still be S500. I believe that by 2010, all diesel must be S15.

    Enjoy your ice storm. Hope you do not have a power outage.
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    winter2: The b-20 did run quieter, but ran rough. If the quality of the ULSD is a problem or if 20% of the stations still have the old diesel and add a b-20 old fuel this may be the reason the b-20 responded as it did.
    Our Green Beast is sealed in one and a half inch of ice. Now as the snow has started up, with ice and snow it does have a rather airodynamic look. The windshield is sloped from the top of the windshield to the front top of the grill is sloped and looks real cool! We can't even open the doors. We have not lost any power, but close to 100,000 home are with out electric and water, with little hope of reconnections until Wed. or Thurs. However our road up to our home has more than 2" of ice and only a fool would attempt going up or down. Missouri is a neat state because we get a wide varity, and we love green all over the place. We lived Phoenix and we hated the one hundred twenty + degrees, and the humid summers. We love it here. This state is a very good place to retire.

  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Farout, I saw on TV the damages caused by the ice storm where you live. Montreal also had a very bad one a few years ago :sick:
    When you have to drive downhill on an icy road, remember that the ABS has a strange behavior: when you use the brakes, the wheels block easily and the ABS loosens the brakes to let the tires grip again. During the time given to resume adherence, the transmission pulls the truck again. So you cannot stop the truck going downhill while the transmission is engaged. The ABS will stop you safely when you are in neutral (going down an icy slope of course).

    Last but not least: forget the 4WD Part-Time on ice. This truck has a short wheelbase and rapidly slides sideways. Once it starts to get out of hand either you stop sliding naturally, either you engage the 4WD Full-Time and take control after a few "irrational trajectories". Try it once and you can repeat the recovery sequence fairly easily. It's quite pleasant to know how to recover a safe drive.
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    caribou1: Your advice is very much appreciated, thank you. With the CRD I have never used the part-time yet, we leave it in full-time on our dirt/rock/gravel/ roads. On pavement we take it out of full-time, unless it's needed.
    Last night it got down to -25C. Notice I used the C temp for you, I thought you might like that. We have 2" of ice covered with 1" of packed snow. My wife and I have been iced in here from last Thurs. night, and until the ice gets soggy we are not moving. Ice is not something I intend to deal with on the very steep hill we live on the top of. The ice- cycles on the eves of the house are mostly 18" long.
    The Green Beast is frozen solid and doors and hood don't even come close to wanting to budge open. I am glad we are retired because there is no way anyone beyond our our home down the road are going any place. Gas generators are at a huge demand. The home improvement chain stores are issuing numbers to people and as the generators come in by the truck load. Most generators sell for $1,295.00 Finding gasoline has been a problem in Springfield MO, and several other places. Because the electricity being out, along with some houses that just can't keep enough heat has had the Red Cross, and Salvation Army have opened many places so people can be fed and sleep and kept warm. I have never seen so many people who really needed to be in these centers. I think on the Lake of the Ozarks there are about 10 to 15 such places. We have a Waterford Wood Stove ( made in Ireland) that we use for heat. This we can also cook on if we needed to. We designed our home to be so if we got stranded we could be fine for several weeks if we had to. It really feels good to be independent and self reliant. Has this winter been bad for you?

  • steverstever Posts: 52,683
    Maybe you'd like to move to Portland?

    King5 video
  • nescosmonescosmo Posts: 453
    Farout... Must be something to see the snow untouched, here in florida has been very hot A/C run all day today, is very hot for the winter. Is your CRD doing as it should after the F37, do you think that gas mileage is doing ok, my seems to me that is not doing so good, maybe is my imagination but maybe not.

  • mdamickmdamick Posts: 277
    I had mine in for the F37 and replacement of the EGR flow control valve. It has 61000 miles on it.
    The tech pulled out a lot of "gunk". They blamed it on the Rotella 5W40 and PowerService.
    I am blaming it on the CCV system design.
    I wonder if it will plug up the intake manifold to the point where it won't run right, I remember an earlier post about VW having that problem.
    Any thoughts?
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Farout, you guys stole our winter. We have close to +15C and blue sky.
    I can report about using winterized fuel during warm weather :blush:
    Believe it or not, I get summer mileage now. So the temperature seems to play a very important role in the injection parameters.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    The technician at the local dealer mentioned the "gunk" that gets into the system. I find it strange that a fuel additive that gets consumed in the combustion process would contribute to anything save for more blowby which diesel engines by their nature have more of than gassers. I used the Power Service products for several tankfuls and could find no discernible difference over the RedLine product I use consistently. The oil could be a contributor if it has a high vaporization rate and according to the tech, those using the recommended Mobil 1 0W-40 have lots of "gunk" in the intake system.

    Frankly, I do not know what to say at this point. I have switched over to Amsoil 5W-40 "CJ" rated oil and will watch the aftercooler hoses to see how much "gunk" they accumulate. If I start seeing an increase in "gunk" in the aftercooler hoses then I will switch back to the 15W-40 synthetic from Amsoil. While using that oil, the aforementioned hoses remained nearly dry with only a tiny bit of "gunk" that settled in the lowest portion of the hoses.
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