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Clearing up a few issues

cliffy1cliffy1 Posts: 3,581
I have completely given up on the other Tundra
topic but I found a few things I wanted to point
out to you before I forget about them.

1. Over the weekend, I was listening to G. Gordon
Liddy and his love affair with the Corvette. he
pointed out that the LS1 engine is a Lotus design
and claims that GM loved the engine but was not
confident about being able to build this engine in
any of its plants. They subletted the job to OMC
(Outboard Motor Corp.). While it is a new engine
in every sense, it is not a GM engine any more than
the 1.8 Liter engine in the Prism is a GM.

2. I found that I was correct about the Hemi
engine. Check out this link. .
Note the sentence, "Although the motor was
basically legislated out of NASCAR in the 1970s,
and emissions laws, high production costs, and the
insurance industry stopped production of the street
version in 1971, the motor still dominates the top
drag racing classes more than twenty-five years
later." and , "This single event caught the racing
world by surprise and eventually prompted NASCAR
to impose stricter production rules on Chrysler."

Also, I admit that I missed the point that one of
the other participants was making and they are
correct to a degree. Due to the high level of
personal attacks, I was unable to properly back
down and discuss things. One cannot carry on a
reasonable discussion with unreasonable people.

I still contend that ABS is not always the best
choice on a tow vehicle. I still contend that
surge brakes can, under certain circumstances,
remain locked after the brake is released on the
truck. On dry pavement, my initial description was
wrong. On wet pavement, if you dump 50% (or so)
of your speed, the drag on the truck drive line can
have more friction than skidding tires from the
trailer. It may not happen all the time, but it
can happen.

I didn't start this topic to restart this
discussion and I hope this one is frozen and
archived soon. I did want to make sure that the
next time you run into me on any topic, you have an
understanding of where I am coming from.


  • bcobco Posts: 756
    i'll be reasonable. i'm kinda sick of discussing it too. but, if you read my last post to you on the other site, you can see why the whole abs issue upset me. it's analogous to the airbag issue i brought up. why? because there is no statistical data to back it up...only what you say. which is what you chastised me for with the airbag issue. further, it seems to me, that any time someone challenges the value or reasoning for toyota doing something, you are quick to defend it. sometimes using rationale that you have already attacked yourself. the reason people get personal is because you appear to straddle the fence on many issues.

    one day you want to say that most tundra owner's don't use their trucks for heavy towing/hauling. that many, like yourself, like the shallow bed as it's better for your purposes. a vehicle being used for those purposes, is a perfect candidate for abs.

    the next day, you want to discuss the drawbacks of abs in a towing situation. which you just stated most tundra owners don't do. not to mention, the drawbacks of abs in a towing situation are negligible at best and are not supported by anything stronger than your own opionion. so why bring it up? you come across with the "holier than thou" sound. again, this is why you draw the personal attacks...

    as for toyota being better for "offering consumers abs as an option", be careful how far and wide you sling that too. indications from potential and current owners over on tundra solutions indicate that, while abs was an option, it was NOT an easy one to get.

    that's my nickel on the topic...i'll be happy to drop it now, or continue to discuss it if you like. like yourself, i just wanted to make sure you have an understanding of where i'm coming from.

  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    I'm really sorry to have to do this to you and I don't know how to say it nicely but either your info sources are TERRIBLY WRONG or you don't listen.

    The engine you are talking about is NOT the LS1 it is the LT-5 which was available in the late great ZR1 Corvette ONLY and was produced by Mercury Marine not OMC.. The LSI is an in-house GM motor that is used in all sorts of incarnations from 4.8L to 6.0L it shares NO parts with past GM/Chevy small blocks.

    The debate on the Hemi was only that you said Chrysler PULLED out of NASCAR because of the ban which was hog wash because small block Chryslers ran through the 70's in NASCAR which all the companies had to run. I repeat Chrysler DID NOT pull out of NASCAR. I never disputed the Hemis were banned as were all big blocks not long after.
  • You missed my point but I don't care. If G. Gordon Liddy had it wrong about OMC (and he did say OMC, not Mercury, I know the difference), blame him. If I was incorrect in hearing LSI versus LT5, shoot me. If your memory of a conversation 6 months ago indicates that I made an incorrect claim, which is not backed up by this link, shoot me again. I honestly forgot about the whole thing until you brought it up a couple of weeks ago. You were trying club me with it in trying to diminish my credibility.

    Like I said, I'm finished with the Tundra topics that are haunted by the less than civilized participants and I had thought you were not among those I needed to avoid.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    I'm not sure what you want here. I'm not trying to do anything TO YOU. I don't know you. I wouldn't mind meeting you or people on this board, it might be fun. All I've ever done is correct the wrong info that you have posted. Again, I'm not sure how the "tone" comes across to you but you do seem thin skinned. Would it be better if everyone takes what everyone on these boards says as absolute truth? What a wonderful, boring world! Try to accept it's not YOU people are attacking it's your info.
  • is a GM engine. GM owns Lotus engineering.
  • bamatundrabamatundra Posts: 1,583
    Antilock brakes are not a panacea. ABS adds cost and complexity to the vehicles. It does not reduce the incidence of accidents. Insurance companies are dropping the ABS discount because of this. I found this article about the effectiveness of ABS. It is interesting reading:

    "Do car antilocks reduce crashes? Although car antilocks perform well on the test track, there's no evidence they have made significant reductions in the number of on-the-road crashes. A 1994 Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI) study and a subsequent 1995 study compare insurance claims for groups of otherwise identical cars with and without antilocks, finding no differences in the overall frequency or cost of crashes for which insurance claims for vehicle damage are filed. Because antilocks should make the most difference on wet and slippery roads, researchers also studied insurance claims experience in 29 northern states during winter months. Even here they found no difference in the frequency of insurance claims for vehicles with and without antilock brakes. A 1996 Institute study reported no difference in the overall fatal crash involvement of cars with and without antilocks. However, there was an increase in crashes fatal to the occupants of the cars with antilocks. "

    I personally chose ABS for my Tundra, but I respect the right of others to refuse this feature. With the GM - you are stuck with it whether you want it or not.

    I am no expert on braking but I can see Cliffy's point. If you are in slippery conditions, the truck with ABS brakes will not lock but the trailer's brakes might. Since the truck will be decelerating faster than the trailer (remember that the truck will be braking up to the limits of available traction) - the trailer will try to pass the truck.

    How likely is this scenario? I don't think that you or anyone at Edmund's is capable of answering this question.

    As far as thin skin goes - if you will read the topic that Cliffy was posting about, you will see that he was personally attacked - not just his truck. The Big3 vs. Tundra topic tends to be like this - you need asbestos shorts. Read some of F150s posts for instance - he posts more personal attacks than info about trucks.

    The Big3 vs. Tundra topic actually went through several days of civility lately. Unfortunately not much info about trucks has been posted in the last several days. Hopefully civility will return to the site, but I will not hold my breath.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    good post but remember Cliffy had said that RELEASING the trucks brakes wouldn't make a diff. After a lot of reasonable explanations proving that wrong (and even one mechanical failure explanation in Cliffys favor) he wouldn't admit it. That's when the goofiness started IMO.
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985

    Blame G. Gordon Liddy? How about yourself for listening to one source and not backing it up? And then claiming it as gospel only to dump it like a hot potato when only ONE other source questions it???
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Posts: 3,581
    Your post illustrates exactly what is wrong with this whole discussion.

    1. I posted that to another participant with the memory of an elephant who had been badgering me about something I posted 6 months ago and you have absolutely no business responding.

    2. Who cares if it is OMC or Mercury who builds the engine for GM? It is completely immaterial to the discuss that you were not a part of.

    3. If we want to actually discuss the issue of who builds the LT5 engine, we know that it was designed by Lotus and built by Mercury Marine. GM didn't have the in house people to do it. Yes, Lotus is owned by GM but it was not GM people who really did the work is it?

    4. Finally , who cares. You people choose to seize on nit picky stuff instead of the big picture. Your post perfectly illustrates why I will avoid any forum with this current batch of participants.
  • ryanbabryanbab Posts: 7,240
    Oh man so your boycotting us cliff? Oh well i guess you will never be back on edmunds

  • ryanbabryanbab Posts: 7,240
    You all need to lighten up and not take all this stuff so seriously. This is part informational and part ENTERTAINMENT. Seems like some people have a stick up their butts and ruin the fun.

  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    Cliffy Cliffy Cliffy, You always blame someone else. A simple, "Oh I must have heard wrong then" would suffice. You talk about tone.....well your tone is always. "I didn't say it, I heard it from(fill in the blank).

    I'd be willing to lay 10 to 1 that if someone came on here and said Tacomas have V8's you'd question them. If they said, "well so and so told me they did" would you accept that knowing it was wrong???

    You belong here as much as any one else so if you choose to leave you're only depriving yourself, as the wise Ryan has stated, of great entertainment.
  • bcobco Posts: 756
    you won't be missed.

    reference this quote from cliffy (#11):

    "Your post perfectly illustrates why I will avoid any forum with this current batch of participants."

    you see everything thru tundra colored glasses and twist everything to fit your needs. perfect example is the abs issue. take your sales pitch back to the echo forum and, when you're able to admit you're wrong when you are, come on back. until then, you're going to continue perceiving people telling you you're wrong as a "personal attack".

    incidentally, if you read the comparison of the big 3 and tundra, you'll notice their opinion was that the tundra handled worse than the ford and chevy. and not just the "floaty" suspension which you'll attribute to the fact that they didn't get the TuRD pacakage. they didn't like the steering either. nothing remarkable about that "high quality interior" that you all like to brag about too. guess you won't be recommending that review to your customers, eh? only problem they had with the chevy was the exterior appearance and the interior materials. chevy even got best stereo.

  • mgdvhmanmgdvhman Posts: 4,162
    ..."Hit the road Jack....and don't ya come back no more no more no more no more...hit the road jack...and don't ya come back no more..."

    - Tim
  • Cliffy I would beat up on you a little too, but I failed to get the expert on all subjects option when I bought my Silverado. I opted instead for the slight vibration between 40-50 and the famous Silverado squeal when turning left and a drivers seat that has a loose cover and springs that pop every time I sit my 200 pound but in it.
  • I can't believe you would let a little... OK maybe a lot of good natured, err make that mean spirited teasing get you to throw in the towel. Man, you are in sales and should have a thick rhinocerous hide! Rejection of your product is not a rejection of YOU, is it? Even Rewellbaum and Bama have shared some of their humiliating experiences with us, can't you lighten up too? Lets start a new topic like " the dumbest thing I ever did with my truck was..."
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985

    My comment was not even related to your Tundra debate with the others. For that one--I don't really care.

    My only point was you seem to have a cavalier attitude in attributing facts. If you don't like constructive critcism then don't post unsubstantiated facts.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
  • bcobco Posts: 756
    this is a news flash to you??? ;)

  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    just joining this foray...LOL

  • looks like I missed a good one.
  • After reading these few post let me see if I understand the first question. Your truck has ABS and your trailer has surge brakes and when the pavement was wet your ABS worked but the trailer tires locked up? Did the trailer push your truck down the road when this happened? I have pulled my trailer for over 100,000 miles with a truck with out ABS and now with ABS and I have been in some bad ways with them and never experenced anthing like that loaded or empty. It might be that that you have to big of a load on your "little" truck. I am not sure but if my trailer was pushing my truck around at any time I would want a bigger truck. And by the way I have gone up and down some 7% grades hauling livestock and never had any problems with my 2500 trucks keeping a firm feel to the road.
  • meredithmeredith Posts: 577
    After 30 or more days of inactivity....

    this topic is being "frozen." It will be archived or deleted in the next 10 days or so.

    Front Porch Philosopher
    SUV, Pickups, & Aftermarket and Accessories Host
This discussion has been closed.