We have Onstar available here. How else would we be able to maneuver through all those grass shacks?
Upgrade? Me? No thanks. Didn't even opt for the first free year. Something about being guided by voice never seemed to appeal to me. I'd prefer a GPS system rather than having OnStar acting like Big Brother.
So is your estimate of $500 include labor? Or do you think that they will be sending out upgrade kits similar to some of those DSL ISPs?
If they have enough of them to cover MFG costs, yes $500 should include labor. Not sure how many modules are involved with Onstar.
Does anyone offer GPS NAV on the Big Island? I wander all over the Puna district getting lost. It would be nice to track where I have wandered. I could mark potential properties on a map.
I'm curious as to why Puna? Almost all of Puna is in either Zone 1,2, or 3 lava flow hazard zones. Not sure if you've seen this site but I suggest checking it out:
Actually we have a home in Kurtistown which is zone 4. I do not worry too much about the volcano. I lived on the Kona side for 3 years and got tired of the traffic and Vog. The air in Puna is the cleanest on earth. I love it down by Kapoho. Wish I would have bought there when I first looked at property. Oh well. We are thinking of moving over on a more permanent basis. So a good GPS NAV would be nice. I never validated the Onstar in my truck so I could care less about their offer.
Brought this over from the above link for easier access and discussion. (Boy, there are some righteously PO'ed people over there.) Pardon me if I don't get too excited about it. I seem to remember the same snarlings about CSK. What ever happened to that lawsuit? Besides, GM will just say, "Uncle FCC made me do it."
-David
Press Release Smolow & Landis, Trevose Pa Re: OnStar Class Action
Trevose Pa. 3/28/2007. On Monday, March 26, 2007, Smolow & Landis, a consumer class action law firm based in Trevose, Pennsylvania, filed a class action lawsuit against OnStar Corporation and General Motors Corporation on behalf of OnStar subscribers, owners and lessees whose OnStar services are about to be terminated because their vehicles have analog OnStar equipment. At the time of purchase or lease, OnStar and GM represented that OnStar was a unique in-vehicle safety system that provided automatic crash notification to emergency responders, stolen vehicle location, remote door unlock and remote diagnostics in the event of problems with airbags, anti-lock brakes or other systems. OnStar and GM further represented that the OnStar system, like other vehicle safety systems, would function for the life of the vehicle: The life-saving benefits of OnStar are intended not only for initial vehicle purchasers but also for subsequent owners over the life of the vehicle.
OnStar has notified OnStar owners and subscribers with analog equipment that based on design limitations, OnStar will terminate their service as of December 31, 2007. Further, that OnStar and GM will not provide repairs or upgrades. Consumers are being told that if they want to continue to receive OnStar service, they can purchase new vehicles with more up-to-date OnStar equipment. Ronald Smolow, the plaintiffs’ lead attorney, says that: “OnStar and GM’s decision will expose thousands of OnStar customers to great risk of bodily injury and harm in the event of a crash. Without OnStar, there will be significant delays in emergency care during the crucial minutes following an accident. This delay will surely lead to an increase in permanent injuries and fatalities. OnStar and GM are about to strand hundreds of thousands of people without safety features that they thought would work for the life of their car. Its like being told that their airbags or seat belts won’t work after Dec 21, 2007 -- if they feel unsafe – then its time to buy a new car. This is an unfair and outrageous consumer tactic.” In their lawsuit, Smolow & Landis are asking the court to certify a nationwide class of OnStar subscribers, owners, and lessees, and for the court to award damages and for injunctive relief to order OnStar and GM to provide repairs, upgrades or other means of obtaining OnStar service.
For more information contact: Ronald Jay Smolow, Esq. Smolow & Landis Two Neshaminy Interplex Trevose PA 19053 215-244-0880 rsmolow@smolowlandis.com
I can tell you what will happen. The attorneys for GM/Onstar will settle with Smolow & Landis. All the attorneys will get a big chunk of change and the consumers will get a couple hundred bucks to buy a cell phone. If they are lucky.
Look at the bright side you save that monthly charge to Onstar.
please be advised,i have a 2001 pontiac grand prix gtp coupe,with onstar,i love it ,one of the reasons i bought the car was due to onstar,mine has the analog system,please be advised that the fcc,not verizon,not general motors,is behinf all this ,the fcc ,your typical govt agency ,is saying analog is to be discontinued,not gm ,not verizon,i was told by on-star that some models can be converted to digital,please call on-star from your vehicle and they can advise you wether it can be converted over to digital, gm has a great system here,and its a great idea,honda,acura ,and many others use gms on-star for your information,maybe the fcc should be contacted ,not gm,they are in the middle ,believe me
please be advised ,this is not due to general motors,but the fccc,please send chairman martin an email stating to keep analog alive ,gm has no choice they are in the middle,on star has saved hundreds of lives since its inception,its a great idea ,and naturally general motors thought of it please contact the fcc chairman martin ,go to the main page and contact chairman martin by email
Just to set the record straight, the FCC did not mandate that analog service cease. The FCC was petitioned ceaselessly by Cingular and Verizon to change its rules to allow them to drop their analog service, which it finally agreed to do.
After the February date next year passes, Verizon and Cingular will drop their analog service, but not everyone will. I guess that means that analog ONStar systems will still work in some places, probably areas that are less urban and don't have good digital service now.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That is exactly right. There is a reason the carriers wanted to get rid of Analog (AMPS) service. It eats up huge amounts of bandwidth. Bandwidth that can be used to provide a lot more services with GSM & CDMA. It all comes down to money. There is also a case to be made for analog interfering with digital signals. It was nice while it lasted. Everything will eventually become digital as the airwaves get reallocated. I am surprised that AM radio is still with us. I guess it is such a low frequency that no one else wants it. FM only takes up the bandwidth of one TV channel. They may all be on their way out.
Right on. And it makes me wonder that, if the lawsuits get any traction, would GM then turn around and go after the carriers - that is, for discontinuing analogue service without being required to?
Probably not. GM's original contract with the carriers likely includes an 'out' clause for the carriers in the event of digital transition.
Obviously someone at GM unfamiliar with the law. in 2002 GM was told of the changes to the ruling they converted to an analog/digital Onstar device. I do not see where GM has any liability when the US government changes the rules.
In 2002, the FCC decided to no longer require A and B carriers to support AMPS service as of February 18, 2008. Since the AMPS standard is analog technology, it suffers from an inherently inefficient use of the frequency spectrum. All AMPS carriers have converted most of their consumer base to a digital standard such as CDMA2000 or GSM and continue to do so at a rapid pace. Digital technologies such as GSM and CDMA2000 support multiple voice calls on the same channel and offer enhanced features such as two-way text messaging and data services.
As was already pointed out the major cellular carriers lobbied for this to happen.
Just got my letter from GM concerning OnStar. GM is not to blame for the FCC's/Cellular Carriers discontinuance of Analog cellular service effective 1/1/08, however, leaving 500,000 customer holding the bag is a poor choice for an already despised corporate icon in America. No wonder their customer loyalty is eroding quickly and they are losing $ vs. the imports. GM can come up with a retrofit solution, they just do not want to. Their strategy is to force you to purchase a new vehicle from them with an absurd offer. If they do not soon come up with a reasonable fix, my next vehicle will NOT be a GM. I too, will switch to an import.
If you read the following article you will see that some cars have dual band equipment and they are not going to have any problems, others have equipment upgrades available. This change does not effect ALL cars/trucks with onstar.
For my Yukon XL it says it will cost me $15 for the equipment if I subscribe to Onstar for one year onstar service and pay a $100 activation fee. Since I let my account lapse I had to pay the $100 activation fee anyway, but others that are current will be out $100.
You guys are a bit behind the curve. These facts have been pointed out here before; Most GM vehicles manufactured 2003 and later are equipped with dual mode or digital, so the dual mode owners are given an option to upgrade.
"WOW, that helps out a lot of people. I'm not affected by this change but was concerned for a lot of others that would be."
Right. That only leaves, according to one source, about a half million "valued customers" holding an empty bag.
Right. That only leaves, according to one source, about a half million "valued customers" holding an empty bag.
Are you sure ? Have you called GM customer service and ask to speak to someone in charge and your major concern. I would think GM, would compensate active Onstar customers with something ? Is it really GM's fault ? I think not !
LOL!! Too funny. GM will not support analog only systems. They blame the electrical systems being incompatible with digital systems. Bottom line the bean counters wrote off half a million customers and offered a $500 bonus on purchase of a new GM vehicle. Talk about a slap in the face.
Here are some facts that some of you may not know. -In november of 2002 the FCC ruled that cellular carriers will no longer be REQUIRED to support the analog cellular network as of early 2008. Meaning they can still carry it, but lets face it they aren't going to. This is not GM's fault. -Beginning Jan. 2008 OnStar services in the US and Canada will be available only through OnStar hardware that operates on the digital cellular network. Notification to affected ACTIVE subscribers began in 2006. They had plenty of time to know. If they were an inactive subscriber, it won't affect them anyway. -The OnStar system in vehicles with non-upgradeable analog hardware will not function after Jan1,2008. SUBSCRIBERS with these vehicles will be sent a certificate for an additional year of OnStar service if they purchase or lease an eligiable OnStar equipped GM vehicle by Dec.31,2008. Again if they are not an active subscriber it won't matter to them anyway. The extra year if you get a new vehicle is based on the fact that the average american gets a new vehicle every 36-48 months. -Analog to digital upgrade: OnStar subscribers will pay $15.00 for thier upgrade with the purchase of a one-year subscription at regular cost.(not 3 years as I read in an earlier post). You have two subscription choices: Safe & Sound:199.00/year or Directions & Connections:399.00/year.
I think you are putting too much blame on GM for this. They can not control what the cellular companies campaign for and then get. Sure they can do all sorts of things to appease the public, but from the sounds of most you, you wouldn't be happy regardless what they offered you. All I know is I love my OnStar and couldn't imagine not having it in my truck. I have never had a problem with it or the hands free calling service. One final thing about OnStar: When you press the blue button it goes to a different call center than if you press the red emergency button. If it takes a little longer for someone to answer when you press the blue button that's why. They know it's not an emergency. If it was you should have pressed the red emergency button. Finally, lets look at the numbers: These are based on model years 02-05, since that is what is affected. GM Models:64 Models with On*:35 in 02/41 in 03/45 in 04/56 in 05. Total models with On*: 177 Total non upgradeable models: 40 or about 22.5%. Not that bad if you ask me.
My question is how many active analog only customers are there. I have seen this 500k figure thrown around. No data to back it up. I know I was offered Onstar in 1998 and did not want it. I have never activated the Onstar in my current vehicle. Not interested. So I wonder just how many people are actually affected that really give a hoot.
I went to the Onstar website, and found out for $15, any analog Onstar can be upgraded to Digital. The only catch is you have to purchase a one year contract with Onstar. So, it's not as bad as members seem to think.
When I spoke with GM they said they would give us $500. towards a new car. I told them I didn't want to purchase a new car I wanted On Star, that was what led me to purchase this car. The man I spoke with also said GM chose to discontinue analog. He used the word GM.
Most people who bought a car in 2002 that's analog only have probably quit paying for the silly service. They are priced about double what it should be have been priced anyhow. My 2003 we bought it one extra year because they offered "extra" months free. Have cellphones instead.
I suspect the number of drivers out there who will be cut off is tiny... They may have subscribed with automatic renewal and it's being taken out of their credit card and they don't even realize it's still turned on at their expense...
People who live in cities problay don't have any trouble using their cell phones where they live however rural, hilly and tree covered areas have great difficulty using cells in those areas. That's why Onstar is important to us in an emergency. We don't talk on Onstar we only use it if there is a problem. We live 35 miles from any town in these hilly, tree covered areas and when we go to other areas where cell phones don't work, such as the desert. We only have 50K miles on our 2002 car which we bought new and paid for it. We don't want to purchase a new GM ever....Not the way they take care of their customers.
Just call them and setup a transfer of equipment like they have offered. Or take their offer for a discount on a new car of your choice with OnStar. You wouldn't get any different treatment from any other car company when the phone companies and government have decided analog is dead in most areas of the country.
You're going to have a real fit when all TV stations go digital and high definition and your old TVs won't work without buying a new tuner box for them... unless you pay the monopoly cable company or the satellite folk for partial HD television.
If you are 35 miles out of town the Digital service will probably not work anyway. Digital has a very limited range compared to AMPS. I think the folks in rural America are going to be out of luck when analog cellular goes away. If your cell phone does not work going digital with Onstar will probably not work. Same carriers are involved. Get a Sat phone for emergencies.
There's so much confusion and so many ill-informed people on this issue that your well ordered post is appreciated. Unfortunately, most of the info you provided has been well noted here in the past. Further, I doubt anyone here blames GM for the FCC pulling the plug on analogue. That's not the issue, at all. What riles people like nan6 and others is that GM, one, does not offer the affected analogue-only owners any alternative except that laughingly insulting coupon on a new vehicle. Why would anyone buy anything from someone who they believe just cheated them? That coupon is NOT just compensation; It's just a transparent way of manipulating people into buying new vehicles. (I've got this ocean-front property in Yuma for sale, real cheap. Anyone thinks that coupon is a good deal would be a perfect fit. HA!) Also, a side note; it is equally laughable for anyone to suggest that GM, with all its technological resources, cannot provide a fix; It is presumably just not cost effective. They reduce their so called "valued customers" to mere numbers, effectively stripping from view the fact that real people are being victimized.
And two, does anyone here think they (GM) didn't know in 2002, while they were planning the analogue/digital upgrade for the next model year, that the OnStar equipment being sold in those 2002 vehicles would soon be obsolete? They had to know, all the while touting it as something 24/7 from now on.
If having Onstar is such a big deal why would someone switch to a car that does not have it as an option. I am sure the accountants said how many people with analog only Onstar service are still forking over the money every month? That number was too small to warrant a newly designed piece of equipment. I know for a fact that the digital Onstar offers services that were not available when I bought my 1999 Suburban. It did not have any of the engine monitoring equipment required for the current service. How many people do you suppose still have the same cell phone as they did in 2000? I would say virtually NONE. The carriers forced the customers into the newer phones when their contracts were up. As far back as 2004 it was nearly impossible to get an analog cell phone new. We bought 100s of refurbished Motorola bag phones for our customers in the Arctic. It was the only phone that would work for many people. I have retired but last I talked to the guys we are not going to eliminate analog service in Prudhoe Bay, Barrow or the Arctic Villages that are depending on that service. GM/Onstar not being the carrier does not have that option.
So are you going to buy a new GM car or just live without Onstar?
Your 2003 Chevy Impala has an upgradeable system and your wife's 2005 Chevy Colbalt also has an upgradeable system. You can take it any GM dealership and they can do the upgrade. It will cost you 15.00 plus one year of service at either 199 or 399 depending on the plan you get.
Frankly, given the tone of your message, I would have to suspect that you're a schill for GM, planting messages on Forums like this.
There's another way of looking at it; And that's what seems to elude american corporations. GM is losing it's customer base not because it builds an inferior product. As a freqeunt traveler on business I get to rent a lot of cars to drive for a week or two at a time. The GM product competes well, especially against the new crop of Korean cars which at first blush seem very good. After a while though, a Malibu or a LaCross doesn't seem all that bad. Japanese cars? Pretty much an American car with too many cup holders and silly gadgets. But I digress- GM's sin? It's broken faith with its customer. When you calculate the costs involved in winning a customer to your product, it amazes me that businesses don't send loyal customers movie tickets or flowers once a week for remaining customers; A lot cheaper then the return on advertising campaigns for new customers. In the car business, it's customer loyalty and not brand loyalty that makes a good bottom line. If you don't take care of your customer, they leave you completely.
So lets look at the on star case here. Assume GM like many other companies are innocent bystanders in the change of a federal regulation. What to do. On Star isn't that big a moneymaker in the overall scheme of things. I have it in a 2003 Saab and find it convienant and in 1 situation a real life saver. (locked myself out of the car at my daughters college graduation. Would have missed it except for on star) I now appreciate it and the convienence I have with the built in phone. Soon it will be just useless buttons on the dash. I wanted it in my Jaguar but no go. GM could easily engineer an interface module to convert the signal and offer it to earlier users at a price of a few hundred dollars. In this change over, the Federal government has set aside 1 Billion dollars to be distributed to consumers in the form of 40 or 50 dollar certificates to be used towards the purchase of A to D converters for TVs that are not going to be replaced by the their owners. The coverters for this application have not even been designed as yet, but manufacturers are preparing for it.
GM has taken door number 2. Rather than perhaps losing a little money because in a cost analysis it would be unprofitable to design, build, and install a similar device, they choose to abandon thier customer, thanking them for buying in the past, and oh if you buy another one of cars and here's a certificate for an extra year of service.
This is the way it really goes: Thanks for the kiss off. I'll buy a car made by the north koreans before I ever buy a GM product again- Bad faith on their part. I have as much trust in their continued support as I do in the North Koreans. But it doesn't stop there. I have friends, family, business acquaintances. We all talk, and cars always comes up in discussions, even among wifes. You just don't lose 1 customer, you lose 3 or four that may be in the decision making process of buying and a few more along the way. And perhaps a few more that were not inclined one way or the other, but the story poisons the well for all. Multiply this by the thousands being hosed because GM won't step up to the plate. Bad PR goes a lot farther then good PR. But it's a lesson never learned by most management teams. Japanese companies did not get to dominate the american car market by just building a good product. They also earned loyalty by supporting the customer at all points in the relationship.
This is the real lesson that american business has failed to learn over the years. The most important part of your business is your customer. Invest an extra dollar for them and it will be returned many times over in loyalty and repeat business. You really don't need an MBA to figure this out, but it's the simple things that bring us down.
First you are not making any sense. If you like Onstar so much why would you buy another car without it? Why not keep the car you have? I was under the impression that the digital/AMPS system was put in GM cars starting in 2002. So your 2003 should be able to be upgraded for 15 bucks. Forgive me but I have heard this whining for the last 10 years from Cingular, Cellular ONE, Verizon, Sprint & AT&T customers. They were forced to buy new phones just about every time they turned around. This has been coming about for a long time. I guess Onstar customers are just in the dark ages. We as a small cellular carrier chose not to phase out AMPS. We have too many customers we could not service at great distances with modern digital cell sites. It is the choice of Cingular and Verizon to dump analog, not GM.
You must forgive some of the posters here; it's not really obstinacy. Shills? Hard to say. If they are, as you imply, they're not very good at it, nor convincing many. More likely, with due respect, they could do well in Googling, "The Psychology of Brand Identification".....and its exploitation, (tennies anyone?); and in the study discover it's not the company they defend, but themselves.
gagrice: I might consider a GM product if Wagoner and his ilk depart. In other words, not likely.
I just do not understand how someone can put so much weight onto a gadget such as Onstar. If it is as important as many here have made it out to be. Why would you buy a different brand that does not have it? I have no doubt that GM has made some enemies over this. Chevy lost me in 2002 when they built a truck as ugly as the other brands. I am not that tickled with my GMC Hybrid. I would not go buy a brand that did not have what I wanted just to spite GM.
As far as being a defender of GM. I just happened to work in Communications for the last 45 years and realize who is and who is not to blame for the current state of cellular affairs.
noobie1 - I think you are the one behind the curve. I guess you didn't understand the article that I linked to in my other post, here's what it says:
Dual band customers are NOT effected by this change they continue to use onstar w/o needing any type of upgrade. The analog only customers will have service until 12/31/07, after that they will have to purchase the dual band upgrade to continue using the Onstar service.
I have an '03 Sierra and a '04 Yukon XL and both were built with analog only systems, if I want to use onstar I have to pay for the upgrade. So for me to activate onstar I have to pay $15 per truck for equipment, $100 per truck for installation and activation, plus one year Onstar service for each vehicle @ $175 per truck for a grand total of $580. That's cheap peace of mind in my book. That way I know my wife and baby will get help even if no one can answer the Onstar operator. The only reason I was thinking about reactivating is because my wife and I are having a baby, and if something happens onstar could get the EMS to me or my wife even if we were knocked out. I don't use the personal calling or turn by turn directions. It's just a little security blanket that's all.
The FCC ruling says that when something on the analog system breaks the cell operators are not required to fix it anymore. The way it used to be set up the cell operators had to maintain the equipment in order to keep their license. If the FCC is not going to make them keep the analog system running at 100% that makes Onstar unreliable. It just wouldn't be smart for GM/Onstar to try and continue service on an analog system. GM/Onstar could be held liable if you get in a wreck and die because the onstar service you paid for didn't work because you were in a digital zone that didn't have a working analog tower. When GM found out about the legislation they came up with the dual band setup, now you want to hang them out to dry because you feel they should give you the upgrade for free?!
You bought a car that has Onstar, now the technology has changed and the system you have won't work after 12/31/07 and somehow it's GM's fault?!! What happened when the cassette player was outdated, did Panasonic give you a CD player because they stopped making cassettes? Is Sony going to give you a new Plasma TV because CRT TV's are obsolete? Will Dell give you a new computer because your old one was too slow? Why do you expect this to be any different? Technology changes, and you have to change with it or be left in the dust.
What car do you have that is effected by this change? Chances are there is an upgrade for your car. There are very few cars that would not have some kind of fix available, like the ones that had Onstar as a dealer installed option.
You bought a car that has Onstar, now the technology has changed and the system you have won't work after 12/31/07 and somehow it's GM's fault?!! What happened when the cassette player was outdated, did Panasonic give you a CD player because they stopped making cassettes? Did Sony going to give you a new Plasma TV because CRT TV's are obsolete? Did Dell give you a new computer because your old one was too slow? Why do you expect this to be any different? Technology changes, and you have to change with it or be left in the dust.
I have an '03 Sierra and a '04 Yukon XL and both were built with analog only systems, if I want to use onstar I have to pay for the upgrade. So for me to activate onstar I have to pay $15 per truck for equipment, $100 per truck for installation and activation, plus one year Onstar service for each vehicle $175 per truck for a grand total of $580.
I think the way GM refers to this is Analog - Digital Capable. Analog only can not be upgraded. Our '04 Envoy XL is Analog - but Digital Capable. So, since I've kept my service active, my only additional cost is the $15 to upgrade, if I decide to keep On-Star. I probably will for the piece of mind (air-bag deployment or other emergency contact). In almost 3 years we have only used it once...'somehow' at the full service car wash it came out of the tunnel and ended up in the drying area locked. I had just recently renewed the service and had to call the wife at home to look up the details. In less than 5 minutes the locks popped and saved me from having to call POP-A_LOCK or whatever the car wash supervisor was recommending...we never did get to the discussion of who was going to pay if that was needed.
So, I think it is useful but seldom critical to have it. I could add that (after conversion to Digital) to our Verizon shared minute plan for $10 a month additional...but we do have our regular cell phones anyway.
Thanks Rockylee! I just don't understand why some people think that if they buy something the manufacture owes them for the life of the product. Noobie1's car is at least 5 years old, maybe older, how many car compaines would pay to change out functioning OPTIONAL equipment on a car that is well out of warranty? None of them! The equipment is not defective, it's just out of date. Some things get old and break, others just get phased out. That's life, suck it up and move on.
The point is probably with those folks that may be still paying for a car with only OnStar analog.
While I like the analogy with teh cassettes/CD and plasma/CRT it doesn't really hold. Cassettes can still be played on cassette players and a CRT will still receive signal just fine. OTOH analog OnStar will soon be just a button in your car that doesn't do anything.
I am sure that GM did a costs benefit analysis and decided this is what made sense. They shouldn't be surprised if it loses them long term customers.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
wlbrown9 - You are right, I have an analog system that was built digital ready/upgradable. I didn't renew my contract with Onstar so I have to pay for the $100 per vehicle activation too. The way the dealer explained it to me everyone that upgraded would have to pay the $100 activation, not just the ones that didn't renew.
If we weren't having a baby I would not even consider doing this, but it's just like I said before Onstar is a security blanket for the "what if's" in life.
As far as the car wash goes they should have had to pay, it's their fault the car got locked. They probably have a deal with a local locksmith that gives them kickbacks or something, there is a guy on call just for them, and they do it several time a day to people that they think won't pout up a fuss. A buddy of mine used to work at a car wash so I know how they play that game. It probably sounded like this - "It must have been the car alarm or the car locks when you take it out of park, that's not out fault." Then they pressure you because they have 5 cars in the wash behind you that can't get out because your car is blocking the exit. If they called the locksmith a van would have been there in minutes, because they were waiting around the corner for the call.
The point was that as technology moves on and companies stop producing devices compatible with old technology you don't expect them to provide you with the replacement version, i.e. cd for tape deck.
The number that gets tossed out is 500,000. What's not clear is if that number is paying customers or vehicles built with the analog only system. Noobie1 seems to think that because the car has onstar GM should spend millions to develop an upgrade for those 500,000 that will need it. That cost would be reflected in the cost of the upgrade. Most people that have the old system will not be willing to pay more than $150-$200 figuring they would not have the car that much longer. There's no way that they can develop a fix that would come in around that price point.
Yeah, I understand that part. The question of is this 500K actual users or potential users seems to be the key.
I would think that if it was 500,000 people all clamoring for this that it might have swayed GM's thinking. I suspect that the actual number is a lot smaller and thus their decision.
Now this is a stretch so bear with me - when Studebaker went out of the car business they stayed in the parts business for years. After that they went into the parts tracking business for folks who still owned them. This was possible because they got swallowed up[ by a company that could afford that luxury.
All that the above shows is that you can be in business for earlier customers. I will grant you Studebaker didn't have to shoot satellites up to provide this service.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I looked it up under my ON-STAR account...anyone with a GM (possibly any ON-STAR equipped vehicle) can enter the VIN and get the info about the upgradability of their vehicle.
You may go to your GM dealer to have this vehicle's OnStar equipment upgraded to operate on the digital network. The cost for the upgrade is only $15 with the purchase of a one-year OnStar subscription at regular retail pricing.* For new accounts, an additional $100 activation fee will apply. Please contact your GM dealer to make an appointment.
I renewed in April 2005, when the first included year was expiring. I renewed for 2 years (received an extra 3 month for the 2 year renewal...I think I saw that was available now). After I had renewed, I found out they had a program to upgrade...at that time with purchase of a 3 year renewal (non-refundable) they would 'give' you the digital upgrade. Here is an excerpt from the e-mail I received from them in April 2005:
Digital upgrade kits are now available for some GM vehicles. Upgrades for these vehicles will be provided to OnStar subscribers with the purchase of a non-refundable, 3-year OnStar subscription. The digital hardware upgrade program is currently limited to U.S. subscribers only.
Onstar is not run on satellites alone, the main part of the system is terrestrial, run off of the cell phone network. If GM want's to keep the analog system up and running they have to buy and maintain all the analog cell towers and related equipment then hire people to keep it all going. Call me crazy but in GM's current state I don't think they can do that.
The FCC is not saying to shut down analog they are just allowing the cell phone companies that for the most part do not make or sell analog phones anymore keep that system operational. Onstar has to be reliable, if analog is not going to be a stable technology because the cell companies won't keep the system working how can GM stick with it?
I know about the VIN look up, I put a link to it in my initial post in this topic.
Since you renewed for more than one year do they still want you to pay for an additional year of service to get the upgrade, or can you just go in and have it done?
Since I didn't renew my Onstar I am going to be treated like a new customer and have to pay the $100 activation. It's my fault, but I saved more than that in the past 4 years I have not re-uped so I saved money in the long run.
Comments
Upgrade? Me? No thanks. Didn't even opt for the first free year. Something about being guided by voice never seemed to appeal to me. I'd prefer a GPS system rather than having OnStar acting like Big Brother.
So is your estimate of $500 include labor? Or do you think that they will be sending out upgrade kits similar to some of those DSL ISPs?
For more information contact:
Ronald Jay Smolow, Esq.
Smolow & Landis
Two Neshaminy Interplex
Trevose PA 19053
215-244-0880
rsmolow@smolowlandis.com
Good Luck to all! My understanding is that the $15/$500 deal is only if you already had the analog/digital switch in your vehicle.
Again, Good Luck to all and let's get what we paid for, a system that works!
Does anyone offer GPS NAV on the Big Island? I wander all over the Puna district getting lost. It would be nice to track where I have wandered. I could mark potential properties on a map.
I'm curious as to why Puna? Almost all of Puna is in either Zone 1,2, or 3 lava flow hazard zones. Not sure if you've seen this site but I suggest checking it out:
http://www.punaguide.com/index.html
As far as GPS NAV I know that Sony and Garmin should have a solution for you.
Pardon me if I don't get too excited about it. I seem to remember the same snarlings about CSK. What ever happened to that lawsuit? Besides, GM will just say, "Uncle FCC made me do it."
-David
Press Release
Smolow & Landis, Trevose Pa
Re: OnStar Class Action
Trevose Pa. 3/28/2007. On Monday, March 26, 2007, Smolow & Landis, a consumer class action law firm based in Trevose, Pennsylvania, filed a class action lawsuit against OnStar Corporation and General Motors Corporation on behalf of OnStar subscribers, owners and lessees whose OnStar services are about to be terminated because their vehicles have analog OnStar equipment.
At the time of purchase or lease, OnStar and GM represented that OnStar was a unique in-vehicle safety system that provided automatic crash notification to emergency responders, stolen vehicle location, remote door unlock and remote diagnostics in the event of problems with airbags, anti-lock brakes or other systems.
OnStar and GM further represented that the OnStar system, like other vehicle safety systems, would function for the life of the vehicle:
The life-saving benefits of OnStar are intended not only for initial vehicle purchasers but also for subsequent owners over the life of the vehicle.
OnStar has notified OnStar owners and subscribers with analog equipment that based on design limitations, OnStar will terminate their service as of December 31, 2007. Further, that OnStar and GM will not provide repairs or upgrades. Consumers are being told that if they want to continue to receive OnStar service, they can purchase new vehicles with more up-to-date OnStar equipment.
Ronald Smolow, the plaintiffs’ lead attorney, says that: “OnStar and GM’s decision will expose thousands of OnStar customers to great risk of bodily injury and harm in the event of a crash. Without OnStar, there will be significant delays in emergency care during the crucial minutes following an accident. This delay will surely lead to an increase in permanent injuries and fatalities. OnStar and GM are about to strand hundreds of thousands of people without safety features that they thought would work for the life of their car. Its like being told that their airbags or seat belts won’t work after Dec 21, 2007 -- if they feel unsafe – then its time to buy a new car. This is an unfair and outrageous consumer tactic.”
In their lawsuit, Smolow & Landis are asking the court to certify a nationwide class of OnStar subscribers, owners, and lessees, and for the court to award damages and for injunctive relief to order OnStar and GM to provide repairs, upgrades or other means of obtaining OnStar service.
For more information contact:
Ronald Jay Smolow, Esq.
Smolow & Landis
Two Neshaminy Interplex
Trevose PA 19053
215-244-0880
rsmolow@smolowlandis.com
Posted by: r.j. smolow, esq. | Mar 30, 2007 10:05:55 PM
Look at the bright side you save that monthly charge to Onstar.
After the February date next year passes, Verizon and Cingular will drop their analog service, but not everyone will. I guess that means that analog ONStar systems will still work in some places, probably areas that are less urban and don't have good digital service now.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Probably not. GM's original contract with the carriers likely includes an 'out' clause for the carriers in the event of digital transition.
-David
Even without knowing for certain, I am SURE it does...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In 2002, the FCC decided to no longer require A and B carriers to support AMPS service as of February 18, 2008. Since the AMPS standard is analog technology, it suffers from an inherently inefficient use of the frequency spectrum. All AMPS carriers have converted most of their consumer base to a digital standard such as CDMA2000 or GSM and continue to do so at a rapid pace. Digital technologies such as GSM and CDMA2000 support multiple voice calls on the same channel and offer enhanced features such as two-way text messaging and data services.
As was already pointed out the major cellular carriers lobbied for this to happen.
That'll really show them! Switch to an import (don't buy Acura because they used Onstar too.)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://www.onstar.com/us_english/jsp/explore/onstar_basics/helpful_info.jsp?info- - -view=tech_equip
Type in your VIN here and see if your car's equipment will work on the digital systems.
https://www.myonstar.com/adt.os
For my Yukon XL it says it will cost me $15 for the equipment if I subscribe to Onstar for one year onstar service and pay a $100 activation fee. Since I let my account lapse I had to pay the $100 activation fee anyway, but others that are current will be out $100.
Rocky
P.S. Good Find......
You guys are a bit behind the curve. These facts have been pointed out here before; Most GM vehicles manufactured 2003 and later are equipped with dual mode or digital, so the dual mode owners are given an option to upgrade.
"WOW, that helps out a lot of people. I'm not affected by this change but was concerned for a lot of others that would be."
Right. That only leaves, according to one source, about a half million "valued customers" holding an empty bag.
-David
Are you sure ? Have you called GM customer service and ask to speak to someone in charge and your major concern. I would think GM, would compensate active Onstar customers with something ? Is it really GM's fault ? I think not !
Rocky
-In november of 2002 the FCC ruled that cellular carriers will no longer be REQUIRED to support the analog cellular network as of early 2008. Meaning they can still carry it, but lets face it they aren't going to. This is not GM's fault.
-Beginning Jan. 2008 OnStar services in the US and Canada will be available only through OnStar hardware that operates on the digital cellular network. Notification to affected ACTIVE subscribers began in 2006. They had plenty of time to know. If they were an inactive subscriber, it won't affect them anyway.
-The OnStar system in vehicles with non-upgradeable analog hardware will not function after Jan1,2008. SUBSCRIBERS with these vehicles will be sent a certificate for an additional year of OnStar service if they purchase or lease an eligiable OnStar equipped GM vehicle by Dec.31,2008. Again if they are not an active subscriber it won't matter to them anyway. The extra year if you get a new vehicle is based on the fact that the average american gets a new vehicle every 36-48 months.
-Analog to digital upgrade: OnStar subscribers will pay $15.00 for thier upgrade with the purchase of a one-year subscription at regular cost.(not 3 years as I read in an earlier post). You have two subscription choices: Safe & Sound:199.00/year or Directions & Connections:399.00/year.
I think you are putting too much blame on GM for this. They can not control what the cellular companies campaign for and then get. Sure they can do all sorts of things to appease the public, but from the sounds of most you, you wouldn't be happy regardless what they offered you.
All I know is I love my OnStar and couldn't imagine not having it in my truck. I have never had a problem with it or the hands free calling service.
One final thing about OnStar: When you press the blue button it goes to a different call center than if you press the red emergency button. If it takes a little longer for someone to answer when you press the blue button that's why. They know it's not an emergency. If it was you should have pressed the red emergency button.
Finally, lets look at the numbers: These are based on model years 02-05, since that is what is affected.
GM Models:64
Models with On*:35 in 02/41 in 03/45 in 04/56 in 05.
Total models with On*: 177
Total non upgradeable models: 40 or about 22.5%.
Not that bad if you ask me.
We have used ours a few times. Fortunately, it's never been used during an accident.
Thanks in advance.
:confuse:
So, it's not as bad as members seem to think.
Any analog/digital system capable of upgrading to digital can be upgraded. Analog only systems cannot be upgraded.
Most people who bought a car in 2002 that's analog only have probably quit paying for the silly service. They are priced about double what it should be have been priced anyhow. My 2003 we bought it one extra year because they offered "extra" months free. Have cellphones instead.
I suspect the number of drivers out there who will be cut off is tiny... They may have subscribed with automatic renewal and it's being taken out of their credit card and they don't even realize it's still turned on at their expense...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You're going to have a real fit when all TV stations go digital and high definition and your old TVs won't work without buying a new tuner box for them... unless you pay the monopoly cable company or the satellite folk for partial HD television.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And two, does anyone here think they (GM) didn't know in 2002, while they were planning the analogue/digital upgrade for the next model year, that the OnStar equipment being sold in those 2002 vehicles would soon be obsolete?
They had to know, all the while touting it as something 24/7 from now on.
Philosophy fails when your the victim.
-David
So are you going to buy a new GM car or just live without Onstar?
There's another way of looking at it; And that's what seems to elude american corporations. GM is losing it's customer base not because it builds an inferior product. As a freqeunt traveler on business I get to rent a lot of cars to drive for a week or two at a time. The GM product competes well, especially against the new crop of Korean cars which at first blush seem very good. After a while though, a Malibu or a LaCross doesn't seem all that bad. Japanese cars? Pretty much an American car with too many cup holders and silly gadgets.
But I digress- GM's sin? It's broken faith with its customer. When you calculate the costs involved in winning a customer to your product, it amazes me that businesses don't send loyal customers movie tickets or flowers once a week for remaining customers; A lot cheaper then the return on advertising campaigns for new customers.
In the car business, it's customer loyalty and not brand loyalty that makes a good bottom line.
If you don't take care of your customer, they leave you completely.
So lets look at the on star case here. Assume GM like many other companies are innocent bystanders in the change of a federal regulation. What to do. On Star isn't that big a moneymaker in the overall scheme of things. I have it in a 2003 Saab and find it convienant and in 1 situation a real life saver.
(locked myself out of the car at my daughters college graduation. Would have missed it except for on star)
I now appreciate it and the convienence I have with the built in phone. Soon it will be just useless buttons on the dash. I wanted it in my Jaguar but no go.
GM could easily engineer an interface module to convert the signal and offer it to earlier users at a price of a few hundred dollars. In this change over, the Federal government has set aside 1 Billion dollars to be distributed to consumers in the form of 40 or 50 dollar certificates to be used towards the purchase of A to D converters for TVs that are not going to be replaced by the their owners. The coverters for this application have not even been designed as yet, but manufacturers are preparing for it.
GM has taken door number 2. Rather than perhaps losing a little money because in a cost analysis it would be unprofitable to design, build, and install a similar device, they choose to abandon thier customer, thanking them for buying in the past, and oh if you buy another one of cars and here's a certificate for an extra year of service.
This is the way it really goes: Thanks for the kiss off. I'll buy a car made by the north koreans before I ever buy a GM product again- Bad faith on their part. I have as much trust in their continued support as I do in the North Koreans. But it doesn't stop there. I have friends, family, business acquaintances. We all talk, and cars always comes up in discussions, even among wifes.
You just don't lose 1 customer, you lose 3 or four that may be in the decision making process of buying and a few more along the way. And perhaps a few more that were not inclined one way or the other, but the story poisons the well for all. Multiply this by the thousands being hosed because GM won't step up to the plate.
Bad PR goes a lot farther then good PR. But it's a lesson never learned by most management teams.
Japanese companies did not get to dominate the american car market by just building a good product. They also earned loyalty by supporting the customer at all points in the relationship.
This is the real lesson that american business has failed to learn over the years. The most important part of your business is your customer. Invest an extra dollar for them and it will be returned many times over in loyalty and repeat business. You really don't need an MBA to figure this out, but it's the simple things that bring us down.
First you are not making any sense. If you like Onstar so much why would you buy another car without it? Why not keep the car you have? I was under the impression that the digital/AMPS system was put in GM cars starting in 2002. So your 2003 should be able to be upgraded for 15 bucks. Forgive me but I have heard this whining for the last 10 years from Cingular, Cellular ONE, Verizon, Sprint & AT&T customers. They were forced to buy new phones just about every time they turned around. This has been coming about for a long time. I guess Onstar customers are just in the dark ages. We as a small cellular carrier chose not to phase out AMPS. We have too many customers we could not service at great distances with modern digital cell sites. It is the choice of Cingular and Verizon to dump analog, not GM.
You must forgive some of the posters here; it's not really obstinacy. Shills? Hard to say. If they are, as you imply, they're not very good at it, nor convincing many. More likely, with due respect, they could do well in Googling, "The Psychology of Brand Identification".....and its exploitation, (tennies anyone?); and in the study discover it's not the company they defend, but themselves.
gagrice: I might consider a GM product if Wagoner and his ilk depart. In other words, not likely.
As far as being a defender of GM. I just happened to work in Communications for the last 45 years and realize who is and who is not to blame for the current state of cellular affairs.
Dual band customers are NOT effected by this change they continue to use onstar w/o needing any type of upgrade. The analog only customers will have service until 12/31/07, after that they will have to purchase the dual band upgrade to continue using the Onstar service.
I have an '03 Sierra and a '04 Yukon XL and both were built with analog only systems, if I want to use onstar I have to pay for the upgrade. So for me to activate onstar I have to pay $15 per truck for equipment, $100 per truck for installation and activation, plus one year Onstar service for each vehicle @ $175 per truck for a grand total of $580. That's cheap peace of mind in my book. That way I know my wife and baby will get help even if no one can answer the Onstar operator. The only reason I was thinking about reactivating is because my wife and I are having a baby, and if something happens onstar could get the EMS to me or my wife even if we were knocked out. I don't use the personal calling or turn by turn directions. It's just a little security blanket that's all.
The FCC ruling says that when something on the analog system breaks the cell operators are not required to fix it anymore. The way it used to be set up the cell operators had to maintain the equipment in order to keep their license. If the FCC is not going to make them keep the analog system running at 100% that makes Onstar unreliable. It just wouldn't be smart for GM/Onstar to try and continue service on an analog system. GM/Onstar could be held liable if you get in a wreck and die because the onstar service you paid for didn't work because you were in a digital zone that didn't have a working analog tower. When GM found out about the legislation they came up with the dual band setup, now you want to hang them out to dry because you feel they should give you the upgrade for free?!
You bought a car that has Onstar, now the technology has changed and the system you have won't work after 12/31/07 and somehow it's GM's fault?!! What happened when the cassette player was outdated, did Panasonic give you a CD player because they stopped making cassettes? Is Sony going to give you a new Plasma TV because CRT TV's are obsolete? Will Dell give you a new computer because your old one was too slow? Why do you expect this to be any different? Technology changes, and you have to change with it or be left in the dust.
What car do you have that is effected by this change? Chances are there is an upgrade for your car. There are very few cars that would not have some kind of fix available, like the ones that had Onstar as a dealer installed option.
jgmilberg,
Great way to put it !!!
I think the way GM refers to this is Analog - Digital Capable. Analog only can not be upgraded. Our '04 Envoy XL is Analog - but Digital Capable. So, since I've kept my service active, my only additional cost is the $15 to upgrade, if I decide to keep On-Star. I probably will for the piece of mind (air-bag deployment or other emergency contact). In almost 3 years we have only used it once...'somehow' at the full service car wash it came out of the tunnel and ended up in the drying area locked. I had just recently renewed the service and had to call the wife at home to look up the details. In less than 5 minutes the locks popped and saved me from having to call POP-A_LOCK or whatever the car wash supervisor was recommending...we never did get to the discussion of who was going to pay if that was needed.
So, I think it is useful but seldom critical to have it. I could add that (after conversion to Digital) to our Verizon shared minute plan for $10 a month additional...but we do have our regular cell phones anyway.
While I like the analogy with teh cassettes/CD and plasma/CRT it doesn't really hold. Cassettes can still be played on cassette players and a CRT will still receive signal just fine. OTOH analog OnStar will soon be just a button in your car that doesn't do anything.
I am sure that GM did a costs benefit analysis and decided this is what made sense. They shouldn't be surprised if it loses them long term customers.
If we weren't having a baby I would not even consider doing this, but it's just like I said before Onstar is a security blanket for the "what if's" in life.
As far as the car wash goes they should have had to pay, it's their fault the car got locked. They probably have a deal with a local locksmith that gives them kickbacks or something, there is a guy on call just for them, and they do it several time a day to people that they think won't pout up a fuss. A buddy of mine used to work at a car wash so I know how they play that game. It probably sounded like this - "It must have been the car alarm or the car locks when you take it out of park, that's not out fault." Then they pressure you because they have 5 cars in the wash behind you that can't get out because your car is blocking the exit. If they called the locksmith a van would have been there in minutes, because they were waiting around the corner for the call.
The number that gets tossed out is 500,000. What's not clear is if that number is paying customers or vehicles built with the analog only system. Noobie1 seems to think that because the car has onstar GM should spend millions to develop an upgrade for those 500,000 that will need it. That cost would be reflected in the cost of the upgrade. Most people that have the old system will not be willing to pay more than $150-$200 figuring they would not have the car that much longer. There's no way that they can develop a fix that would come in around that price point.
I would think that if it was 500,000 people all clamoring for this that it might have swayed GM's thinking. I suspect that the actual number is a lot smaller and thus their decision.
Now this is a stretch so bear with me - when Studebaker went out of the car business they stayed in the parts business for years. After that they went into the parts tracking business for folks who still owned them. This was possible because they got swallowed up[ by a company that could afford that luxury.
All that the above shows is that you can be in business for earlier customers. I will grant you Studebaker didn't have to shoot satellites up to provide this service.
You may go to your GM dealer to have this vehicle's OnStar equipment upgraded to operate on the digital network. The cost for the upgrade is only $15 with the purchase of a one-year OnStar subscription at regular retail pricing.* For new accounts, an additional $100 activation fee will apply. Please contact your GM dealer to make an appointment.
I renewed in April 2005, when the first included year was expiring. I renewed for 2 years (received an extra 3 month for the 2 year renewal...I think I saw that was available now). After I had renewed, I found out they had a program to upgrade...at that time with purchase of a 3 year renewal (non-refundable) they would 'give' you the digital upgrade. Here is an excerpt from the e-mail I received from them in April 2005:
Digital upgrade kits are now available for some GM vehicles. Upgrades for these vehicles will be provided to OnStar subscribers with the purchase of a non-refundable, 3-year OnStar subscription. The digital hardware upgrade program is currently limited to U.S. subscribers only.
The FCC is not saying to shut down analog they are just allowing the cell phone companies that for the most part do not make or sell analog phones anymore keep that system operational. Onstar has to be reliable, if analog is not going to be a stable technology because the cell companies won't keep the system working how can GM stick with it?
Since you renewed for more than one year do they still want you to pay for an additional year of service to get the upgrade, or can you just go in and have it done?
Since I didn't renew my Onstar I am going to be treated like a new customer and have to pay the $100 activation. It's my fault, but I saved more than that in the past 4 years I have not re-uped so I saved money in the long run.