http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Cam_Timing It's a kludge to kind-of-sort-of get VVT into a pushrod design. I've driven it and it doesn't feel nearly as smooth and refined as the 3.6. And while it gets nearly identical HP and torque figures as the 3.6, it gets slightly worse MPG.
I found this online: "This compares with General Motors' simpler VCT (variable cam timing) on 3.5- and 3.9-L V6 engines, in which a phaser on a single solid shaft changes timing equally on both intake and exhaust lobes."
I'm not impressed. VVT allows for the intake and exhaust valves to operate at different ratios, while just altering the cam timing is a kludge. Joy. I'll take the 3.6 thankyouverymuch.
P.S. If the system fails, it's the phaser on the camshaft. And being a pushrod, that's a huge mess to get to(full dissassembly). If your VVT on an OHV goes out, well, that's just a simple valve job at worst.
VVT is also variable cam timing. The difference is that with double overhead cams, both intake and exhaust cam timing can vary independently. GM has stated that the VVT on the single cam pushrods get about 80% of the advantages of VVT an DOHC would have.
I agree with you that the 3.6 is a better engine than the 3.9, but it is also more expensive. I think you should have been comparing the 3.6 LaCrosse with the 3800 LaCrosse engines. The 3800's peak torque is 230 lb-ft, a bit more that the 3.6, but as you pointed out, the flat torque curve that the LaCrosse 3.6 has gives it more power over the full range of useful engine speeds. The 3800's torque gives up sooner at the top speed range, which is why its horsepower is about 200 where the 3.6 is 240.
Pushrod engines are also OHV, and Buick's have had OHVs since the straight eights of the 1930's.
Buicks actually started out with OHV engines as far back as 1903 with their two-seater models, which made them ahead of the curve.
HCCI/DiesOtto setups for petrol engines should help with fuel economy and power curves, although I do think using something like a rotary valvetrain instead of conventional valves could make major improvements in performance and packaging.
I don't really know much about pre-world war two Buicks. I have a post war book on Buick. There is a chapter on the straight eight. What I do know is that GM used the L-head on most engines - Cadillac for sure. The basic design puts the valves in the block off to the side of the piston. The valve stem is then moved directly by the camshaft in the block. The disadvantage is that compression ratios are limited by this design.
The 3.6 in the LaCrosse, CTS, Saturn Aura, G8 and other models is this same model. The curious thing is that each platform seems to have a different torque/horsepower curve. I had thought that the LaCrosse got a different intake manifold, but this should have made the engine model number (LY7) different. So I suspect that the torque differences are due to differences in how the exhaust plumbing is different on each platform. The airfilter plumbing may contribute too. The RWD's seem to have the best torque curves, with the G8 having a flat curve similar to the LaCrosse, but nearly 250 lb-ft at the max.
Per JD Power Cadillac is number 7 for dealer satisfaction well above industry average and virtually ties with Mercedes. In fact it is Toyota and Honda that are below industry average. Also ALL GM makes are above industry average.
Hmm, interesting, vettee. I'll check out the MT mag again and see which company the survey's coming from. On the other hand, despite the "7th best dealer satisfaction" from JDPower, every person I met outside this forum got bad experience from visiting Cadillac's dealership, not to mention many disappointed posters here sharing their nightmare with Cadillac's service.
Btw, here's a bomber news I heard from a local salesman: Pontiac is considering to , ahem... discontinue G8. Great....
You guys got some seriously mean ideas for Chrysler, altough it maybe is beyond salvation now after Chrysler decided to lay off another 5000 employees. I just hate to see Chrysler gone, particularly the cool looking 300c. I dont understand why we have to kill Chrysler instead of Pontiac. Pontiac already serve the image as rental fleet cars and I dont see any chance of turning it back for now, but thats just me.
I wonder, is GM really forced to take Chrysler? I suspect GM wants Chrysler's share of federal aid funds to save its own butt, leaving Cerberus for the time being responsible for downsizing so GM wont have to spend too much to kill the Chrysler brands. Smart, but evil at best.
Another rumor is that GM wants Jeep, why??? Both Jeep and Hummer are money losers, maybe GM is trying to re-unite them. Jummer, Hummp, Jeemer, Heep, anyone? Thats exactly what the union will become, a line consisting of total heaps of metal that dont sell. Or perhaps, a Cadillac badged Grand Cherokee? :P :P
VVT? Gm's creates one really late for the game. When GM starts with VVT or VCT, competitors already prepared their next gen VVT. The problem is GM found it too expensive to develop VVT earlier, relying on old tech pushrod instead. The good ol' OHV is much simpler and cheaper to build, at the penalty of efficiency and power in smaller engines. The VVT, giving superior fuel economy and more performance compared to pushrods, was deemed too expensive for GM to sell cars cheaply enough. Its old news.
Now its becoming a circle of doom. GM didnt grow at all, and now its growing too slowly.
"Lincoln on the other hand.....shameful" Agreed, materialman. Lincoln's current line are all shameless clones except maybe MKS (not sure where it came from).
GM wants the Wrangler. I remember reading somewhere that the manufacturing costs for it were close to 9% of its actual selling price It's a huge money-maker for Chrysler. And GM, while it does large trucks well, as well as commercial vehicles, it has a huge problem with the smaller truck and SUV segment.
GMC - it literally can't sell their Canyon at any price. They have nothing to compete with the RAV-4, not really. It's smart for them to get Jeep if they can.
Btw, here's a bomber news I heard from a local salesman: Pontiac is considering to , ahem... discontinue G8. Great....
G8 has strikes against it today. First the price of gas (IF this low price period is just a short lived phenomenon, which it most likely is) is killing trucks and low mpg RWD cars. 2nd the importing of cars from Austrailia and other places is hugely cost prohibitive due to exchage rates and the G8 is probably not making money at the price it is selling at.
Perhaps Chrysler will replace Pontiac at the mid priced dealership channel but it seems like it would be a bit of overlap with the Buick unless they make the Chrysler image more sporty like the Pontiac.
I was talking to a Chrysler supplier and the 300/xxx replacements are ready to be sourced but nothing is happening which means that there is no replacement at Chrylser ready for GM to use if it buys them. The 300 is just too old to be worth much at this time.
Another rumor is that GM wants Jeep, why??? Both Jeep and Hummer are money losers,
Where are you getting this data? Jeep is always a money maker and even Hummer is making money(but not as much as it used to). Reason why Hummer is being sold is customer perception and how it makes GM look like a gas sucking company even though it has a competitive vehicle in each segment unlike most other competitors.
Isn't the G8 supposed to be produced locally at some point???
Also, I can't see how gas prices, provided they STABILIZE, and not continue to spike would affect a V6 sedan (I would assume that most sold are V6's) adversely. If someone burns 15 gallons a week the difference in cost is $15 ($45 vs $60) if gas were to stay between $3 and $4 for a long period in time.
If gas prices continue to rise as everybody thought they would 6 months ago then volume vehicles (ie not small, high priced niche) like the G8 and 300 will not survive. The future before the economic meltdown (cause is loss in home value, but root cause is that our country is spending money that we borrowed from China to buy cheap China made goods, duhh) saw worldwide gas usage increasing which could only mean higher gas prices in the future. Once we get past this crisis (and we will stabilize) then gas prices will continue upward.
Then again we may repeat history again and gas prices may stay down and vehicles like the G8 will sell. Who knows because I sure do not.
Event the V6 version will not be getting the mpg most will desire and they just will not sell in volume.
As far as quality our friend again has no facts to back him up (other than some nebulous business model). The Oshawa plant where the Camaro, and hopefully future Zetas, are built is consistently one of the highest quality plants in the US. I think the G8 would/will be built there but GM, like other business's are holding up spending any money, are temporarily delaying programs until things turn around. Not many houses being built around the country when there is a huge backlog of unsold homes. One big spiral downward until it turns around.
"In recognition of its long history of producing vehicles of excellent quality, J.D. Power and Associates is pleased to present GM's Oshawa Assembly Plant with a Founder's Award," said Dilts. "During the past seven years, the General Motors Oshawa Plant has received four Gold and two Silver Awards for plant quality in North America in the annual J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality Study. This is far more awards than any other plant has received in the region over this period, and is a testament to the hard work of all GM employees at the facility as well as to GM management and suppliers."
The Founder's Award is a discretionary award presented at various times by J.D. Power and Associates to recognize individuals or companies that demonstrate dedication, commitment and sustained improvement in serving customers. In the 40-year history of J.D. Power and Associates, only 22 companies or individuals have previously received the award.
The build quality would suffer and the price would go up $2,500 at the same time!
I really do not know where you get your info. I do not know where the exchange rate would put the US built G8 at but you sure are going the wrong way. It would be cheaper here. And US GM is selling it at quite a bit lower price than what the same vehicle is sold for in' Austrailia.
I am stating the sad reality. Let's all fire the management of these companies and do it right! We need a domestic auto industry second to none. We are hutring because of the huge mistakes that are a blatant reflection of greed and inability to make tough decisions. Management and Unions alike.
The G8 is a great car and the Malibu and CTS as well. Notice how they needed to delay the new Buick. The merger will need to come first and then the design of the new business and which brands that will be kept going forward. The decision to make the G8 here is one of the many decisions that have been subject to scrutiny. Hopefully, they keep importing them until a GP replacement worth it's weight can be made here.
Next to fall is the hugely unbalance U.S. Health Care System. The greed is unprecedented and worse than the auto business.
It would be cheaper here if the high quality Australian parts are used? No, the GP parts bin would be raided for a US made G8.
I'll give you this: Given the same or higher quality for a G8 GT at $28,000 loaded will sell big time. Given the same quality as the old GP, forget about it.
Yes, it can be done but will it be done? Perhaps in the new business model post-merger that 50% of the people in the know say is not going to work.
Prices will go down in the short term. Let's see which company is on the mark as this recession builds.
You're fairly optimistic aren't you that any of the Big 3 are going to be around as currently exists? unless the government steps in big-time to support them.
I look at the prices of these new models (and didn't they just raise prices!) and say "they're kidding!". I'll buy 1-2 years for 50% of the list price.
In this environment GM should be having 0% + large rebates.
When the October sales numbers come out, you're probably going to see a new modern low. GM and Ford are going to see massive hits to their foreign sales, as the societies across Europe and Asia are bleeding money.
According to the Wall Street Journal, the latest sales numbers indicate Ford lost 17%, GM slightly more, and Chrysler lost around 24% in sales..... I wonder what it must be like in those board rooms, because they all act like "this is going to turn around soon", when we all know it's not!
Some of the old big 3 will exist in a different form. A huge nuber of models will need to change. You are spot-on regarding pricing and thay are sticking to the old "Price high and get the suckers up front and then lay in the incentives to clear inventory" strategy. You buy at the end of the previous model year to save some dough...or use your strategy and get a 50% discount after 2 years, 20K miles!
Either way, things are changing so fast, no one knows what will happens "When the weasel pops!"
As far as quality our friend again has no facts to back him up (other than some nebulous business model). The Oshawa plant where the Camaro, and hopefully future Zetas, are built is consistently one of the highest quality plants in the US. I think the G8 would/will be built there but GM, like other business's are holding up spending any money, are temporarily delaying programs until things turn around. Not many houses being built around the country when there is a huge backlog of unsold homes. One big spiral downward until it turns around.
GM was late to the quality business model and it has caught up with them. Do you think US citizens are buying Hondas and Toyotas because they are anti-American??
Come on. Nebulous!
Here is 2007 Overall Quality Rankings...where is GM again?
The LaCrosse is not delayed, at least it has not been announced to be delayed. They are only doing the intor later at the Detroit auto show to save money.
OK we have .9 problems at the best and 10th is 1.2 problems /car. Not a heck of a lot of difference. That is basically 1 problem per car.
From 2008 IQS.
Cadillac/Chevy/Pontiac 1.1 (Toyota was 1.0 for 2008) Buick 1.2 (virtually the same) Industry average 1.2 GMC 1.3 Saab 1.5 Saturn 1.6
So there is where GM is today.
As you can see everyone is basically on top of each other so this measure of quality is not even worth looking at anymore. Of course if you really look at the data you would see that the Grand Prix scored higher than the Accord/Camry but since they are so close together I never bring this up anymore.
The GP is so cheap it's laughable. I can't believe you would bring that car into a quality discussion!
Now some questions. What do you think the business model of GM has been since it's inception? Do you think that it is working now? Where would you think GM should focus their new business model in the future?
Do you think their current and future designs we know about now will lead them to the highest market share ever again?
The GP is so cheap it's laughable. I can't believe you would bring that car into a quality discussion!
I give the data and you do not agree with it? I assume you are talking about the interior IP and door components? They are on the low cost side but since the car has been replaced by vehicles like the G8 and Malibu I would look at those best in class interiors for the future of GM.
Again, since I owned one ('77 GTP), it's in my nebulous reality. Also owned a 1977 GP, an under-powered sled which rode very nicely. Sorry to disagree. Check out the GP forum for real problems from past owners.
I agree the Malibu and G8 are a breath of fresh air. Let's see how they hold up as a total package.
It isn't even worth arguing w/ him. We all know the dire circumstances, we understand the problems that they have had w/ their GM products, but all he REALLY has to say is:
"Gimme a B...Gimme an A....Gimme an N"...(You know the rest)
and not "Gimme something I REALLY want and can trust"
He "Knows" they can't do it.
He roots for HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of AMERICANS to LOSE THEIR JOBS. He's not OW, he's GW.
Things do change and I do not doubt the GP owners had problems. BUT I sure cannot figure out how to get across to folks who hang on to complaints/issues on cars from 30 years ago. Heck many here probably were not born yet! Something else is keeping them from getting past the past. It is probably like an old girlfriend who jilted them. Of course some have problems on more current vehicles but I believe in data IF I can validate the method on acquiring and analyzing it. I can lead the customer to the data but I cannot make them utilize it.
I do not think B....A......N (you know the rest) helps anyone. I do believe it's not an option (unless too much greed infuses the current negotiations and all but guarantees it). I truly hope that does not happen.
The problems of the past with the US products do not mean anything to me. As long as it is understood the reasons why the industry as a whole is failing, it's a shining light that change has been a long time coming. Just do not defend inferior product.
Now, the catch-22 is a merger is the only option to keep everything running and at least salvage some jobs.
I really want and can trust this:
Until product after product are home runs, how can you trust 30+ years of bad judgements, greed and failure?
Like I said, CTS, G8, and Malibu and the Lambdas are a great start. Camaro is next. Like I said before, I pray every night for the people that are loosing their jobs not only in US Auto but ALL industries.
Everything is connected and that is global in case you open your mind.
BUT I sure cannot figure out how to get across to folks who hang on to complaints/issues on cars from 30 years ago
Human nature isn't necessarily logical or reasonable. I've been trying to kick a grudge against Volvo since '74. One thing that has helped was having a friend drive an 80's model (and loaning it to me now and then) for 20 years without mechanical drama, and my sister loved her early 90's wagon that she got used and drove for probably 12 years.
You did hit it on the head in a big way. Just read an article comparing Obama supporters to McCain supporters. Obama supporters drove foreign/hybrid/smaller cars while McCain drive american/trucks. I am making an assumption but many of McCain supporters are older/conservative and not spending a lot of time on the internet. So we see a lot of the Japanese owners here and fewer domestic.
Now, I would sure love to see a survey that asks american vs. japanese buyers and how much time they spend on the net.
Until product after product are home runs, how can you trust 30+ years of bad judgements, greed and failure?
Like I said, CTS, G8, and Malibu and the Lambdas are a great start. Camaro is next. Like I said before, I pray every night for the people that are loosing their jobs not only in US Auto but ALL industries.
Like OW, I may come across as very critical but I assure everybody that I want the US auto makers to succeed. I've watched Apple hit almost 100% home runs for the past 5 years, putting out quality products that everybody wants to own. I've watched Pixar send out a stream of blockbuster movies, and in about 7 films there is NOT ONE turd! I've watched Toyota and Honda put out a high percentage of excellent, reliable vehicles.
Well GM has the Malibu and CTS,.... and everything else. I'd love to see them put out some great products, but they are very uneven. Part of that is they suffer from a very bloated structure and they have only (very late) started focusing on great products. You can't forgive people for seeing 30 years of mediocrity and them wondering if it is really any different. Unfortunately the market is now very bad and the weak are going to have big trouble surviving. Many of us have been complaining for years in these forums and what looked like aggressive moves by GM maangement were just wound dressing on a bleeding patient. We're really all on the same team, we want the U.S. to be something to be proud of, but the U.S. auto industry, with rare exceptions, is NOT Pixar, is NOT Apple. Now we are out of time and it is such a shame.
Anybody who owns an import definately doesn't want GM to go down taking hundreds of thousands of jobs with it. You and/or your ride will only become a target of their wrath. Idle hands are the devil's workshop. You will encounter Satan's industrial park.
"Anybody who owns an import definately doesn't want GM to go down taking hundreds of thousands of jobs with it. You and/or your ride will only become a target of their wrath. Idle hands are the devil's workshop. You will encounter Satan's industrial park."
my "import", a honda Pilot, was built here in the US thank you.
Don't you think there will be a few people discusted at GM for taking $25 Billion in tax payer money? Why on earth would we give them $25B when they don't make cars that the public want?
While the Prius was being designed, albiet with help from the Japanese Government, GM was busy lobbying congress to provide tax breaks for people who bought Hummers!
"my "import", a honda Pilot, was built here in the US thank you"
What incentive does Honda have to build more plants here if the Big 3 go belly up and Honda needs the extra capacity to make up for the demand created by the loss of Big 3 products???
"While the Prius was being designed, albiet with help from the Japanese Government, GM was busy lobbying congress to provide tax breaks for people who bought Hummers! "
First of all, gas was $1 a gallon when GM was lobbying for that. Why wouldn't you do what you can to encourage people into a vehicle you make $10 grand profit on???
Second, you answered your own question. If Japanese taxpayers can foot the bill for development of the Prius, why can't we foot the bill for the development of the Volt??
Third of all, with the credit crunch, banks CAN'T lend that kind of money. Under normal circumstances, I'll bet the Big 3 would get financing, albeit it would cost them an arm and a leg considering their precarious positions.
cooterbfd pardon me for being stupid, but I don't understand the way that General Motors thinks. In addition to what you say about Hummers, at the time GM had canceled an electric car of theirs that was in demand (EV1) to promote the environmentally grotesque and obscene Hummer line, which now thankfully seems to be going the way of the dodo bird.
GM was extremely late to the quality game, because their boardrooms are full of people that aren't in tune with what the public wants, and for whatever reason, perhaps stodginess and complacency, they don't care. I'll buy a Chrysler before I buy a General Motors car any day. General Motors will never have my business. ______________________________ in response to: As far as quality our friend again has no facts to back him up (other than some nebulous business model). The Oshawa plant where the Camaro, and hopefully future Zetas, are built is consistently one of the highest quality plants in the US. I think the G8 would/will be built there but GM, like other business's are holding up spending any money, are temporarily delaying programs until things turn around. Not many houses being built around the country when there is a huge backlog of unsold homes. One big spiral downward until it turns around.
GM was late to the quality business model and it has caught up with them. Do you think US citizens are buying Hondas and Toyotas because they are anti-American??
Uh excuse me 62vetteefp, but you seem to have missed the point. Why in the world would any smart consumer wait until this present day for General Motors to catch up when it comes to quality? The smart ones didn't, they were buying Hondas, Toyotas, Lexus, Mercedes all this time. It's the very reason that General Motors is in the mess it's in now. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out..
cooterbfd pardon me for being stupid, but I don't understand the way that General Motors thinks. In addition to what you say about Hummers, at the time GM had canceled an electric car of theirs that was in demand (EV1) to promote the environmentally grotesque and obscene Hummer line, which now thankfully seems to be going the way of the dodo bird.
EV1 was not a viable vehicle at that time. Gas was cheap, the vehicle had insufficient range, it was too expensive, the battery technology was not there and it was NOT in demand except for a few people who had money to burn to show off their greenness. Now if GM would have done a Hybrid then things would be different now. That was there mistake. But then again it is easy to see why they made the decision to go after the hugely profitable large vehicles that the public wanted.
Even today a vehicle lightyears ahead of the EV1 will probably not sell in sufficient quantities to warrant it but it will be sold to make GM look greener. The future does look much better since technology is getting there but if gas stays at ~$2 for the next 5 years (and it is if the worldwide economy does not improve) then again it will be a hard sell except for some greenies who have money to spend. If it goes back up to $4 then it may get a small following that will build as the price comes down due to normal efficiencies.
Economics. They'd lose the sunk costs of their factories and supplier networks; lose the currency hedge they now have by building their volume sellers here; lose the reduced shipping costs; lose the lower-cost labor pool; and lose a good chunk of their current volume since their Japanese operations aren't nearly large enough to reabsorb their North American production.
Wow, the Japanese actually see American workers as cheap labor? My, how times have changed! Also, with the demise of the Big Three taking the UAW with them, what's to keep the foreign makers from paying its workers Wal~Mart wages?
A majority of sales from companies like Honda come from the N. America market. Their livelihoods depend on us buying their product. If they pulled any sort of crap like what you are proposing there would be outrage and the company simply couldn't survive on outside sales.
Comments
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Cam_Timing
It's a kludge to kind-of-sort-of get VVT into a pushrod design. I've driven it and it doesn't feel nearly as smooth and refined as the 3.6. And while it gets nearly identical HP and torque figures as the 3.6, it gets slightly worse MPG.
I found this online:
"This compares with General Motors' simpler VCT (variable cam timing) on 3.5- and 3.9-L V6 engines, in which a phaser on a single solid shaft changes timing equally on both intake and exhaust lobes."
I'm not impressed. VVT allows for the intake and exhaust valves to operate at different ratios, while just altering the cam timing is a kludge. Joy. I'll take the 3.6 thankyouverymuch.
P.S. If the system fails, it's the phaser on the camshaft. And being a pushrod, that's a huge mess to get to(full dissassembly). If your VVT on an OHV goes out, well, that's just a simple valve job at worst.
I agree with you that the 3.6 is a better engine than the 3.9, but it is also more expensive. I think you should have been comparing the 3.6 LaCrosse with the 3800 LaCrosse engines. The 3800's peak torque is 230 lb-ft, a bit more that the 3.6, but as you pointed out, the flat torque curve that the LaCrosse 3.6 has gives it more power over the full range of useful engine speeds. The 3800's torque gives up sooner at the top speed range, which is why its horsepower is about 200 where the 3.6 is 240.
Pushrod engines are also OHV, and Buick's have had OHVs since the straight eights of the 1930's.
HCCI/DiesOtto setups for petrol engines should help with fuel economy and power curves, although I do think using something like a rotary valvetrain instead of conventional valves could make major improvements in performance and packaging.
Hmm, interesting, vettee. I'll check out the MT mag again and see which company the survey's coming from. On the other hand, despite the "7th best dealer satisfaction" from JDPower, every person I met outside this forum got bad experience from visiting Cadillac's dealership, not to mention many disappointed posters here sharing their nightmare with Cadillac's service.
Btw, here's a bomber news I heard from a local salesman: Pontiac is considering to , ahem... discontinue G8. Great....
You guys got some seriously mean ideas for Chrysler, altough it maybe is beyond salvation now after Chrysler decided to lay off another 5000 employees. I just hate to see Chrysler gone, particularly the cool looking 300c. I dont understand why we have to kill Chrysler instead of Pontiac. Pontiac already serve the image as rental fleet cars and I dont see any chance of turning it back for now, but thats just me.
I wonder, is GM really forced to take Chrysler? I suspect GM wants Chrysler's share of federal aid funds to save its own butt, leaving Cerberus for the time being responsible for downsizing so GM wont have to spend too much to kill the Chrysler brands. Smart, but evil at best.
Another rumor is that GM wants Jeep, why??? Both Jeep and Hummer are money losers, maybe GM is trying to re-unite them. Jummer, Hummp, Jeemer, Heep, anyone? Thats exactly what the union will become, a line consisting of total heaps of metal that dont sell. Or perhaps, a Cadillac badged Grand Cherokee? :P :P
VVT? Gm's creates one really late for the game. When GM starts with VVT or VCT, competitors already prepared their next gen VVT. The problem is GM found it too expensive to develop VVT earlier, relying on old tech pushrod instead. The good ol' OHV is much simpler and cheaper to build, at the penalty of efficiency and power in smaller engines. The VVT, giving superior fuel economy and more performance compared to pushrods, was deemed too expensive for GM to sell cars cheaply enough. Its old news.
Now its becoming a circle of doom. GM didnt grow at all, and now its growing too slowly.
"Lincoln on the other hand.....shameful"
Agreed, materialman. Lincoln's current line are all shameless clones except maybe MKS (not sure where it came from).
Sounds like you have about 5 years to get one.
Driving Away Excitement: Pontiac Kills Rear-Wheel-Drive G8
GMC - it literally can't sell their Canyon at any price. They have nothing to compete with the RAV-4, not really. It's smart for them to get Jeep if they can.
G8 has strikes against it today. First the price of gas (IF this low price period is just a short lived phenomenon, which it most likely is) is killing trucks and low mpg RWD cars. 2nd the importing of cars from Austrailia and other places is hugely cost prohibitive due to exchage rates and the G8 is probably not making money at the price it is selling at.
Perhaps Chrysler will replace Pontiac at the mid priced dealership channel but it seems like it would be a bit of overlap with the Buick unless they make the Chrysler image more sporty like the Pontiac.
I was talking to a Chrysler supplier and the 300/xxx replacements are ready to be sourced but nothing is happening which means that there is no replacement at Chrylser ready for GM to use if it buys them. The 300 is just too old to be worth much at this time.
Another rumor is that GM wants Jeep, why??? Both Jeep and Hummer are money losers,
Where are you getting this data? Jeep is always a money maker and even Hummer is making money(but not as much as it used to). Reason why Hummer is being sold is customer perception and how it makes GM look like a gas sucking company even though it has a competitive vehicle in each segment unlike most other competitors.
Isn't the G8 supposed to be produced locally at some point???
Also, I can't see how gas prices, provided they STABILIZE, and not continue to spike would affect a V6 sedan (I would assume that most sold are V6's) adversely.
If someone burns 15 gallons a week the difference in cost is $15 ($45 vs $60) if gas were to stay between $3 and $4 for a long period in time.
Regards,
OW
If gas prices continue to rise as everybody thought they would 6 months ago then volume vehicles (ie not small, high priced niche) like the G8 and 300 will not survive. The future before the economic meltdown (cause is loss in home value, but root cause is that our country is spending money that we borrowed from China to buy cheap China made goods, duhh) saw worldwide gas usage increasing which could only mean higher gas prices in the future. Once we get past this crisis (and we will stabilize) then gas prices will continue upward.
Then again we may repeat history again and gas prices may stay down and vehicles like the G8 will sell. Who knows because I sure do not.
Event the V6 version will not be getting the mpg most will desire and they just will not sell in volume.
As far as quality our friend again has no facts to back him up (other than some nebulous business model). The Oshawa plant where the Camaro, and hopefully future Zetas, are built is consistently one of the highest quality plants in the US. I think the G8 would/will be built there but GM, like other business's are holding up spending any money, are temporarily delaying programs until things turn around. Not many houses being built around the country when there is a huge backlog of unsold homes. One big spiral downward until it turns around.
"In recognition of its long history of producing vehicles of excellent quality, J.D. Power and Associates is pleased to present GM's Oshawa Assembly Plant with a Founder's Award," said Dilts. "During the past seven years, the General Motors Oshawa Plant has received four Gold and two Silver Awards for plant quality in North America in the annual J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality Study. This is far more awards than any other plant has received in the region over this period, and is a testament to the hard work of all GM employees at the facility as well as to GM management and suppliers."
The Founder's Award is a discretionary award presented at various times by J.D. Power and Associates to recognize individuals or companies that demonstrate dedication, commitment and sustained improvement in serving customers. In the 40-year history of J.D. Power and Associates, only 22 companies or individuals have previously received the award.
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1905415/
I really do not know where you get your info. I do not know where the exchange rate would put the US built G8 at but you sure are going the wrong way. It would be cheaper here. And US GM is selling it at quite a bit lower price than what the same vehicle is sold for in' Austrailia.
The G8 is a great car and the Malibu and CTS as well. Notice how they needed to delay the new Buick. The merger will need to come first and then the design of the new business and which brands that will be kept going forward. The decision to make the G8 here is one of the many decisions that have been subject to scrutiny. Hopefully, they keep importing them until a GP replacement worth it's weight can be made here.
Next to fall is the hugely unbalance U.S. Health Care System. The greed is unprecedented and worse than the auto business.
Regards,
OW
I'll give you this: Given the same or higher quality for a G8 GT at $28,000 loaded will sell big time. Given the same quality as the old GP, forget about it.
Yes, it can be done but will it be done? Perhaps in the new business model post-merger that 50% of the people in the know say is not going to work.
Prices will go down in the short term. Let's see which company is on the mark as this recession builds.
Regards,
OW
I look at the prices of these new models (and didn't they just raise prices!) and say "they're kidding!". I'll buy 1-2 years for 50% of the list price.
In this environment GM should be having 0% + large rebates.
When the October sales numbers come out, you're probably going to see a new modern low. GM and Ford are going to see massive hits to their foreign sales, as the societies across Europe and Asia are bleeding money.
Either way, things are changing so fast, no one knows what will happens "When the weasel pops!"
Regards,
OW
GM was late to the quality business model and it has caught up with them. Do you think US citizens are buying Hondas and Toyotas because they are anti-American??
Come on. Nebulous!
Here is 2007 Overall Quality Rankings...where is GM again?
Regards,
OW
The LaCrosse is not delayed, at least it has not been announced to be delayed. They are only doing the intor later at the Detroit auto show to save money.
From 2008 IQS.
Cadillac/Chevy/Pontiac 1.1 (Toyota was 1.0 for 2008)
Buick 1.2 (virtually the same)
Industry average 1.2
GMC 1.3
Saab 1.5
Saturn 1.6
So there is where GM is today.
As you can see everyone is basically on top of each other so this measure of quality is not even worth looking at anymore. Of course if you really look at the data you would see that the Grand Prix scored higher than the Accord/Camry but since they are so close together I never bring this up anymore.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008063
Now that I have shown you the data again you can say the problem is a broken business model.
Now some questions. What do you think the business model of GM has been since it's inception? Do you think that it is working now? Where would you think GM should focus their new business model in the future?
Do you think their current and future designs we know about now will lead them to the highest market share ever again?
Let me know what you think!
Regards,
OW
I give the data and you do not agree with it? I assume you are talking about the interior IP and door components? They are on the low cost side but since the car has been replaced by vehicles like the G8 and Malibu I would look at those best in class interiors for the future of GM.
I agree the Malibu and G8 are a breath of fresh air. Let's see how they hold up as a total package.
Regards,
OW
It isn't even worth arguing w/ him. We all know the dire circumstances, we understand the problems that they have had w/ their GM products, but all he REALLY has to say is:
"Gimme a B...Gimme an A....Gimme an N"...(You know the rest)
and not "Gimme something I REALLY want and can trust"
He "Knows" they can't do it.
He roots for HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of AMERICANS to LOSE THEIR JOBS.
He's not OW, he's GW.
The problems of the past with the US products do not mean anything to me. As long as it is understood the reasons why the industry as a whole is failing, it's a shining light that change has been a long time coming. Just do not defend inferior product.
Now, the catch-22 is a merger is the only option to keep everything running and at least salvage some jobs.
I really want and can trust this:
Until product after product are home runs, how can you trust 30+ years of bad judgements, greed and failure?
Like I said, CTS, G8, and Malibu and the Lambdas are a great start. Camaro is next. Like I said before, I pray every night for the people that are loosing their jobs not only in US Auto but ALL industries.
Everything is connected and that is global in case you open your mind.
Regards,
OW
I think you should copy your last post from "GM news......" to emphasize the jobs loss from bankruptcy.
Every GM product I have bought in the last 14 years had problems that should not have materialized when they did.
1994 Suburban - 1997 GTP - 2003 Yukon Denali. Around $100,000 of US STEEL!
So, you see, you don't have to tell me I do not support the US worker. I expect EXCELLENCE. My results have been far from it.
Like it or not, I'm not alone.
Regards,
OW
Human nature isn't necessarily logical or reasonable. I've been trying to kick a grudge against Volvo since '74. One thing that has helped was having a friend drive an 80's model (and loaning it to me now and then) for 20 years without mechanical drama, and my sister loved her early 90's wagon that she got used and drove for probably 12 years.
Maybe happy Caddy owners need to blog more,
You did hit it on the head in a big way. Just read an article comparing Obama supporters to McCain supporters. Obama supporters drove foreign/hybrid/smaller cars while McCain drive american/trucks. I am making an assumption but many of McCain supporters are older/conservative and not spending a lot of time on the internet. So we see a lot of the Japanese owners here and fewer domestic.
Now, I would sure love to see a survey that asks american vs. japanese buyers and how much time they spend on the net.
http://www.freep.com/article/20081026/NEWS15/810260451/1002/PRINT
Like I said, CTS, G8, and Malibu and the Lambdas are a great start. Camaro is next. Like I said before, I pray every night for the people that are loosing their jobs not only in US Auto but ALL industries.
Like OW, I may come across as very critical but I assure everybody that I want the US auto makers to succeed. I've watched Apple hit almost 100% home runs for the past 5 years, putting out quality products that everybody wants to own. I've watched Pixar send out a stream of blockbuster movies, and in about 7 films there is NOT ONE turd! I've watched Toyota and Honda put out a high percentage of excellent, reliable vehicles.
Well GM has the Malibu and CTS,.... and everything else. I'd love to see them put out some great products, but they are very uneven. Part of that is they suffer from a very bloated structure and they have only (very late) started focusing on great products. You can't forgive people for seeing 30 years of mediocrity and them wondering if it is really any different. Unfortunately the market is now very bad and the weak are going to have big trouble surviving. Many of us have been complaining for years in these forums and what looked like aggressive moves by GM maangement were just wound dressing on a bleeding patient. We're really all on the same team, we want the U.S. to be something to be proud of, but the U.S. auto industry, with rare exceptions, is NOT Pixar, is NOT Apple. Now we are out of time and it is such a shame.
my "import", a honda Pilot, was built here in the US thank you.
Don't you think there will be a few people discusted at GM for taking $25 Billion in tax payer money? Why on earth would we give them $25B when they don't make cars that the public want?
While the Prius was being designed, albiet with help from the Japanese Government, GM was busy lobbying congress to provide tax breaks for people who bought Hummers!
What incentive does Honda have to build more plants here if the Big 3 go belly up and Honda needs the extra capacity to make up for the demand created by the loss of Big 3 products???
"While the Prius was being designed, albiet with help from the Japanese Government, GM was busy lobbying congress to provide tax breaks for people who bought Hummers! "
First of all, gas was $1 a gallon when GM was lobbying for that. Why wouldn't you do what you can to encourage people into a vehicle you make $10 grand profit on???
Second, you answered your own question. If Japanese taxpayers can foot the bill for development of the Prius, why can't we foot the bill for the development of the Volt??
Third of all, with the credit crunch, banks CAN'T lend that kind of money. Under normal circumstances, I'll bet the Big 3 would get financing, albeit it would cost them an arm and a leg considering their precarious positions.
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in response to:
As far as quality our friend again has no facts to back him up (other than some nebulous business model). The Oshawa plant where the Camaro, and hopefully future Zetas, are built is consistently one of the highest quality plants in the US. I think the G8 would/will be built there but GM, like other business's are holding up spending any money, are temporarily delaying programs until things turn around. Not many houses being built around the country when there is a huge backlog of unsold homes. One big spiral downward until it turns around.
GM was late to the quality business model and it has caught up with them. Do you think US citizens are buying Hondas and Toyotas because they are anti-American??
Come on. Nebulous!
EV1 was not a viable vehicle at that time. Gas was cheap, the vehicle had insufficient range, it was too expensive, the battery technology was not there and it was NOT in demand except for a few people who had money to burn to show off their greenness. Now if GM would have done a Hybrid then things would be different now. That was there mistake. But then again it is easy to see why they made the decision to go after the hugely profitable large vehicles that the public wanted.
Even today a vehicle lightyears ahead of the EV1 will probably not sell in sufficient quantities to warrant it but it will be sold to make GM look greener. The future does look much better since technology is getting there but if gas stays at ~$2 for the next 5 years (and it is if the worldwide economy does not improve) then again it will be a hard sell except for some greenies who have money to spend. If it goes back up to $4 then it may get a small following that will build as the price comes down due to normal efficiencies.