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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,439
    >It's because Toyota does their homework and doesn't dump their products on the public to test them.

    Can you say sludge?

    Can you say transmission problem in all three models, es, camry, avalon from Toyota--now focusing on the Camry version. Check 2007 camry problems and repairs.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 58,064
    Well it doesn't seem to have hurt them one bit...so either they were proactive enough (they did extend warranty on some engines) or their reputation can take a hit now and then. So the way I see it, having done their "homework" all these years has allowed them to dodge a few bullets.

    Nobody is going to cut Cadillac any more slack, I fear. You know how it is---the celeb gets away with everything and the wannabe gets blamed for every mistake.

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  • I don't care what anyone says. Nothing beats the original dreamgirls (Diana Ross and the Supremes) I don't like watching imitations, especially when it comes to them. I'll watch the film when it comes out on DVD, but not now.

    On a more relevant note, Cadillac can still muster up in the syle department when it wants to, but substance, uhmmm, I'm still iffy on that subject when it comes to Cadillac. And G.M. seems to disconnected and erratic with the way they do
    business.
  • Imidazol97-

    And how many flops and sludge, as you put it has General Motors produced and dumped on the public, compared to Toyota and Honda. I can count Toyota's and Honda's flops on one hand.

    There aren't enough fingers and toes collectively of the people on this planet to count the flops, mishaps, defects, engineering embarrassments of General Motors, etc. I could name them all, but I'm afraid I'd get carpal tunnel syndrome by the time I was done. :\

    And sorry to burst your bubble but my Toyota Corolla (2002-03) has been one great car.

    -----mediapusher
    ________________________
    Can you say transmission problem in all three models, es, camry, avalon from Toyota--now focusing on the Camry version. Check 2007 camry problems and repairs.
  • Merc1-

    The Cadillac Allante was never meant to be a mass market car. But pathetic as it is, it couldn't even make it as a niche market car like GM had hoped

    ---mediapusher
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 58,064
    The Allante was two mistakes away from a hit---weak engine (they should have had the Northstar in there from the get-go) and persistent water leaks. But the press liked the looks of it.

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  • In reference to the pictures, the BLS gets a navigation system but the CTS doesn't? At the price point of a Cadillac CTS that should be standard! :mad: Uugggh, here we go again...
  • Apparently it weighs a lot. There is too much pride in the Cadillac heritage and name for them to forget about it.
    ____________________

    They're trying. I don't like what they're trying, but I will give them credit for making the effort this time.

    So, how much does GM's Great Wreathed Hope weigh?
  • This 2008 Cadillac CTS is going to weigh almost 4000lbs? Jesus! :sick: Hmmm, let's see, it's the size of a I G35, and has the weight of an ocean liner... I don't get it.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,543
    Where do these prices come from? Just curious. Also how about Phantom pricing? As that was the intended segment.

    I believe John Lennon had a 600.

    A runaway success compared to the Allante, which will go down in history as yet another half-baked GM 80s effort that was killed off right when it became decent.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,543
    Yeah the SLR is no winner...its looks don't help. But it is well known anyway. It will be remembered for its shnozz and outrageousness.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 3,105
    "The XLR is overpriced because G.M. would very much like to capture the ovepriced market that Mercedes and BMW seem to capture with such ease."

    I'm sure GM would. However, "the market" has voted with their wallets and MB and BMW are not considered overpriced. If you want one, that's what they cost. BMW/MB has earned the right and created a supply/demand scenario (or so I have to believe) to sustain such prices. Caddy has not, they really should learn from the (sales) success of Lexus regarding initial pricing (and quality! And upscale interiors!) and growing demand/marketshare.

    Generally, imho, it's not just that GM, starting in the '70s began producing bad cars, but that they kept producing them (how long did the Cavalier live!) and doing just a terrible job of badge engineering. Yes, using the public as test mules is an incredibly short-sighted strategy.

    I believe I remember a story from many years ago (probably read in C & D, I've been reading/subscribing for decades). The domestics, at some point in the production process, doused cars with water to ensure that they did not leak. A Big 3 executive visiting a plant in Japan noted that the Japaneese did not have this "quality control" test. When he asked the Japaneese executive why they didn't test their cars for water tightness, the reply was simply that, "Our cars don't leak."

    '13 Jaguar XF, possibly my favorite of all the cars I've owned. But, my '09 Jag XK was a beauty, as was my '05 Acura TL, '88 Acura Integra, '84 Mitsubishi Mirage Turbo & '78 VW Scirocco (my first!). And, of course, the '92 Nissan Sentra SE-R and '95 Saab 900s I bought for the ex... Ok, I like a lot of the cars in my life.

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Went to visit Ford's assembly plant at Atlanta earlier last year. The cars produced there were the last batch of those fleet-bounded Taurus. What amazed me is that at the end of the production line, guess what Ford does if the trunk panel doesn't align with the rear fender? They use a hammer and make it does. :surprise: The first thing jumped into my mind when I see that was: I wonder what does Toyota or Honda do with problems like this...
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 3,105
    ...They use a hammer and make it does."

    And Ford labels that, "Old World Craftsmanship!" :P

    If Ford, instead of spending millions of $ advertising, "Quality is Job 1" and instead spent millions of $ making Quality Job 1, who knows what might have happened? Quality, maybe?

    Actually, I'm not even sure of Ford's quality ratings. Maybe they are the highest rated of the "domestics?" I actually think they do have some good products: Fusion and iterations, 500/Montego really seems to be a good family appliance, if only they gave it just a bit of style, always thought that the Freestyle seemed like a (underpowered)reasonably sensible soccer-mom mobile, Mustang 's a winner... But, does Fixed Or Repaired Daily & Found On Road Dead still rule the day?

    '13 Jaguar XF, possibly my favorite of all the cars I've owned. But, my '09 Jag XK was a beauty, as was my '05 Acura TL, '88 Acura Integra, '84 Mitsubishi Mirage Turbo & '78 VW Scirocco (my first!). And, of course, the '92 Nissan Sentra SE-R and '95 Saab 900s I bought for the ex... Ok, I like a lot of the cars in my life.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 58,064
    The 600 was a "lost leader"--strictly a wildly complex, recklessly teutonic demonstration of Mercedes technical prowess---call it bragging rights or "in your face" marketing. And it created quite the sensation. Surely it was a foretelling of Mercedes technical dominance to come in the luxury car field.

    And so it accomplished what it set out to do---to make a Rolls or Cadillac look like a Model T Ford mechanically, that's true. I think Sterling Moss took one of the Pullmans and actually broke some track records in England with it....

    But reliable?....ah, no. In that respect, Cadillacs of the time were far more reliable than Benz 600s or any Rolls. Let's give credit where it is due. But technically, the 600 was in another century....fuel injection, OHC V-8, active suspension, 4 wheel disk brakes, hydraulic windows and seats, superb high speed handling.

    These were things Rolls and Cadillac wouldn't do for another 25 years.

    And I'm sure the 600 lost buckets of money as well.

    I like the short wheel base models (in that dark blue color). They were made to be self-driven.

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  • I heard a similar thing about Sterling Moss and...

    To help put in perspective the handling and power capabilities of this massive car, in 1965 a Pullman 600 with six adults on board and Stirling Moss behind the wheel came within five seconds of besting the saloon-car lap record at the Brands Hatch racing circuit. In 1965, Car and Driver magazine stated, "The Mercedes 600 has proved to our complete satisfaction that it is the finest automobile in the world!"

    Merc 600

    The end of that article has some interesting comments on the price of repairs on a 600.

    Ouch it is painful, very, very painful. Those are worse then Ferrari repair bills.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 13,487
    He is right putting anything untested and unproven is an experiment. Toyota just got lucky with Scion, but they were still testing it.

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata.

  • Laurasada-

    You're a person of my own heart when it comes to car logic. The soon to be released 2008 Cadillac CTS' interior does look promising, however it remains to be seen. After all, Cadillac is famous for mastering the "style but no substance" recipe.

    Remember the Cadillac Allante? This was a car that in the public's eye oozed desperation, even though the automotive press gave it gleaming reviews. It was beyond brazen for Cadillac to ask that much for a car that had no proven track record and was riding on the heels of a car company which had a reputation of repeatedly shooting itself in the foot during those days. It also was very much an Italian car, not a U.S.A. car. So much for the "Buy American mantra, huh? ;) The only American thing about it was the engine. And they were stupid enough not to even give it a Northstar engine. Unbelievable. The Allante also had one of the shortest lifespans of any car. All this, coming from "The Standard of the World." Puhleeez. Who do they think they're kidding?

    The water leak information you stated in your previous blog doesn't surprise me one bit. It's the very reason their cars have had so many defects and problems. They don't fix build quality problems as they go along, they try and do it after the fact. Pressure from upper management forces workers to rush the assembly line and turn a blind eye at these defects, 'cause that's what they're instructed to do.

    I was born after the baby boom generation, so I don't quite understand how GM got this way, but I believe it much of it had to do with them having very little, if any competition for a very long time (Early 1900's to 1975)

    How they expect people to forget 35 years or more of pitiful automotive products and suddenly start buying their cars is really laughable and ridiculous. It will take at least twice that long for consumers to get over it, if they ever do.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 3,105
    I believe that part of the problems arose from the fact that many European and Asian car companies were led by engineers (read: Car Guys). US companies, accountants (read: Roger Smith) and marketing "wizards."

    I'm a boomer, my parents always had a mix of domestic (that I remember: Buick, Ford, Caddy...) and imports (Borgward!, Mercedes, Saab, Datsun (now Nissan) and even Renault!) But, by the early 1970s, after a few domestic clunkers and a particularly horrible Ford Country Squire Wagon, nothing but imports until the mid '90s. My Dad took a chance and leased a Caddy Catera, it seemed Europen enough. He fondly recalls that it was a great car to drive, those few days that it was not in the shop! One of the least reliable and poorly screwed together car he's ever owned. Now he's loving his Acura TL.

    I did have a perfectly wonderful experience with my '99 Chrylser 300M. A few repairs under warranty, known first model year issues. But out of warranty, no issues. But after 5.5 years and 67K+ mile, repairs were-a-comin'. The 300M did restore my faith a bit in the domestics, though. It really was a great car! TL is much better put together, though...

    '13 Jaguar XF, possibly my favorite of all the cars I've owned. But, my '09 Jag XK was a beauty, as was my '05 Acura TL, '88 Acura Integra, '84 Mitsubishi Mirage Turbo & '78 VW Scirocco (my first!). And, of course, the '92 Nissan Sentra SE-R and '95 Saab 900s I bought for the ex... Ok, I like a lot of the cars in my life.

  • jkr2106jkr2106 Posts: 231
    How they expect people to forget 35 years or more of pitiful automotive products and suddenly start buying their cars is really laughable and ridiculous. It will take at least twice that long for consumers to get over it, if they ever do.

    I honestly think the public could completely forget about the things gm has put us through if gm would turn around and give us something solid--the complete lineup. They need to acknowledge they messed up and then counter with a portfolio of vehicles that is not only competive, but class-leading. And they must do all of this with value.

    Someone said earlier that they should pay attention to the Lexus model. I think that's exactly what they should do. No more of this "well the cts is good so is the sts, but we still have the dts" COME ON!!! If cadillac is a standard of anything, they need a proper flagship.

    And its not going to be easy. GM seems to have the mentality that one car will turn around its fortunes. But i think it will take a consistant renewed perception across the entire lineup; from Caddy to Chevy.

    From the time they produce a worthwhile lineup, to the time they are 'forgiven' (for lack of a better word), i say will be about 18 years, the same amount of time it took Lexus.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Posts: 231
    ...also: I say the entire lineup from Caddy to Chevy because when consumers buy toyotas and hondas over chevys, they are more likely to buy acuras and lexuses over caddys

    Maybe my optimism is caused by my youth because I dont remember any truely horrendus gm products like those of the 70s and 80s.
  • aldwaldw Posts: 82
    People just can't give GM any credit because their entire mindset has been GM=evil so rolling over and dying and letting ToyoHondasan dominate=good. GM need to continuously improve just so they can hit the naysayers where the sun don't shine. :P
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Posts: 231
    True, that's why I think the Lexus strategy is so great, it even works for hyundai (although that's not what Cadillac is going for). People want value. They want to know that buying a gm will not be a waste of money, so show them it wont be. You cant give them a competitive vehicle and charge the same amount because the other automaker's reputation gives their car more value. If gm wants their fortunes to change, they must have competitive vehicles at LOWER prices.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Did the Allante suck as you claim? I thought its only blunders were that it was ridiculously overpriced and the convertible top didn't fit at well as many would have liked.

    Yeah it sucked. It was underpowered, was 60K and had a manual top that was a pain to operate, fwd, and had the structural integrity of a noodle. For that kinda of money the car sucked. The reasons you give made it loser in that segment.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    In the 1960's, the Mercedes 600 was basically a flop, as some of you have called the Allante.

    Nonsense.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Boy this SL vs. Allante thing really rubbed you wrong I see. You're still reaching for something, anything to say bad about the SL and promp up the Allante. Time to give that one up.

    M
  • Then Rocky what is Consumer Reports? Enlighten us. Show us proof. We all have email addresses.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Oh I don't doubt that it is everything they need and want, its bascially all they know and want to know about. They are the "old school" types for sure. I don't blame them for having preferences, just don't like that they won't even look at or learn about any other brand of car.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    They were not comparable in performance and handling however...the 600 would run rings around the Shadow. One was modern, one was totally obsolete.

    It has been this way with Rolls and Mercedes for years, until BMW bought Rolls and actually turned it into a great car again. I still laugh when I see 80's and 90's Rolls Royces being touted as "superior". An early 90's LS400 was a better "car".

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    A runaway success compared to the Allante, which will go down in history as yet another half-baked GM 80s effort that was killed off right when it became decent.

    Yeah I don't get this nonsense about the 600 being a flop. The car was a masterpiece compared to an Allante or nearly any other car of its day. This judging a car's success solely on sales is about as tired a GM practice as they come.

    M
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