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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Per the reports a theta/Alpha platform is being prepped to make a smaller SUV.

    3.6L will be 300 hp in RWD guise.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I believe it is last generation E class, I could be wrong. Why is Chrysler forced to co-engineer a V-6 w/ Hyundai, are the Mercedes engines "too good"?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Per the reports a theta/Alpha platform is being prepped to make a smaller SUV.

    mis spoke, it is theta/Delta
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    Like mitsubishi, chrysler, dodge, jeep, and hyundai share the same 2.4l I4.

    Also how the Lancer, outlander avenger, sebring, and a few other cars share parts.

    -Cj
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Cadillac to re-align lineup with STS and DTS replacements

    - GM North America President Troy Clarke indicated that the two larger Cadillac sedans, the DTS and STS, will likely be replaced by a single model in the future.

    - In addition, a model smaller than the CTS is likely to appear, which could come off the rumored Alpha platform.

    - In spite of cutting one model line, Cadillac's lineup will probably grow with additional variants such as coupes and convertibles, including the CTS coupe that has been spied.

    Looks like I was right on...

    WAY TO GO, Caddy!!! :D
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    Cadillac has a very impressive line-up and their direction the last 5-years couldn't be any better. I am not sure if a model below the CTS is a good idea or not. These are exclusive cars in that they are not purchased by the masses. Buick is also on a roll right now, and Pontiac has been rebuilding their line-up nicely as well.

    Mercedes kind of cheapened itself with that Hyundai style/size 2-door that is in the $20,000 price range. That is one silly looking car that has little place in a high-end auto company.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I don't see a CTS as being anything more than a 3er or C class...not exclusive in my area anyway, not any more difficult to acquire than any other car for the money. Caddy might be able to make some exclusive cars, but that's still a work in progress.

    The C class hatch is cold dead, not many were sold, the market will forget.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Cadillac designed the CTS to be an entry level luxury car and sports sedan. In that sense it is a C-class or 3-series car. One thing that Cadillac did was to make it more of an American (bigger) style car than European. While some think that the CTS is closer to the 5-series than the 3-series, I have to say that it is an entry level car, while the 5-series BMW is luxury class.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The C class hatch is cold dead, not many were sold, the market will forget.

    I see them around on a not infrequent basis; more often than say, a new S-class.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Yeah, some people go on size vs price...that's not really how this part of the market operates. The CTS may be larger than others at its price point, but it is not in a higher realm. CTS = 3er, C....STS = 5er, E
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Well yeah, there are more 25K cars sold than 95K cars...but they aren't common, I see many more normal C and E. I don't think these cars got enough exposure to cause real damage, and the ones that weren't sold weren't lemons, just awkward.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    While the current CTS being closer to 3er than 5er I can see Caddy has started to move it upmarket with the 2008 model. Although it is still kindda sortta in between 3er and 5er (closer to 5er though) it is possible that the next one will be a full midsize luxury sedan competitor. In that case, a slot will be freed up for another sporty RWD sedan below the CTS as Caddy's entry level luxury performance sedan.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    If the CTS aims for the midlevel, what will the STS be? It sure as hell won't compete with the LS, S and 7er. I agree the upcoming CTS looks amazingly better than the current model, they finally realized that the interior counts for something, too. Will the STS just go away, or grow, improve, and move upmarket?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Please re-read post 3189.

    PS. check out the link.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    Well, IMO, I think the relationship between the CTS and STS should mirror that of the E-Class and CLS-Class. MB does both these models and charges much more for the CLS even though, mechanically, its very similar to the E.

    That way, there is still room for a RWD DTS to top the lineup as more of an S-Class Fighter.

    I really believe the 4-door coupe is the natural (spiritual) evolution for the Seville.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Oops, I missed that. Makes sense...I am always leery of duplicate GM model lines, seeing as they have such a skill for that
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    That makes sense...and I wonder if the Seville name could ever come back. Maybe if Caddy continues its rebirth, it can bring back some names.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They need to revive the Eldorado (the golden one). Those were some fine cars.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    A new Eldo would be fine. Would you want the newer (1967 and up) or the classic Fleetwood Eldorado Biarritz from the '50's. THAT could be an exclusive, high end auto.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Eldorado is a good name. And that 57-58 Eldorado Brougham was like a Bentley today, very high end.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    that Eldorado was also a great John Wayne movie with Robert Mitchum, James Caan and Christopher George...oops...wrong topic???????????????????????????????????????:):):)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I liked the 58 Eldorado. Not sure a retro would go over that well.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    Names - that sure would be nice. I hate these alphanumeric designations on American cars. I want deVille, Seville, Fleetwood, Eldorado from Cadillac. I want Continental, a proper Mark --, maybe even Capri or Cosmopolitan from Lincoln (at least they still have Town Car, though it badly needs a refresh, and Navigator).

    I'm either old enough, or young enough, depending on your viewpoint, that I really started becoming car aware in the late 1970s. Ignoring any issues of build quality or reliability, I still think the 1979 Eldorado had a beautiful design: long hood, no B pillar, short trunk, proud Cadillac grill. I'm also probably one of the few who liked the bustle-backed 1980 Seville.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Not necessarily retro, yet a high end uber-luxury sedan (and dare I say a Convertible????) might get people excited about the Caddy nameplate. I say whatever the Germans (Maybach) and Japanese (LS) can do, we can do better and cheaper.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I agree. Those 3 front drive luxury coupes from '79-'85 were GM's shining light during a tough time. I always thought the Seville looked like an antique Rolls from the back.
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    What I ment by exclusive is that they are not built for the masses like say a Cobalt or Camry.
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    I also liked the 1980 Seville style. My neighbor had a two tone version that was very nice. I have read that there people keeping these cars as collectibles.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The 1980-85 Seville design was inspired by Hooper-bodied Rolls-Royces of the late 1940s. Remember that Lincoln copied bustle-back design for the Continental as did Chrysler for the Imperial.

    I miss those non-alphanumeric names of the past as well. I was happy to see Lincoln bring back the Zephyr name even though the car it is attached to is underwhelming. Then they change it to MKZ - feh!
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Names are an important part of the marketing of anything. Did the "Edsel" fail because of the name, or ??? Updating names is not a bad thing to do if the past has been somewhat murky. In Cadillac's case, the 1980's were not great for a number of reasons, the 1990's FWD models were not bad, but not outstanding either. The Art & Science styling with new names was a way of distancing the new millennium Cadillac's from the old.

    I think the three letter names are not as consistent or well thought out as they might have been, but assuming that some marketing research went into the choices, they may be good names. Lincoln may be copying Cadillac in naming conventions. Before WWII, Cadillac used numbers - series 60, 61, 80, 90 ...

    If Cadillac is really planning to merge the STS and DTS sedans into a single model, perhaps with a long wheelbase option, this makes a lot of sense to me. I have thought that a RWD DTS would overlap the STS pricewise, which would not be good. The short wheelbase can be a sports sedan, while the longer wheelbase would replace the deVille sedans. This would then allow for some higher end model too. Not clear to me what platforms will be used.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I can agree with all of that, and I don't mind those particular cars either.

    Names are a part of the heritage of these companies, just as the alphanumeric names are a part of the heritage of European companies. I don't see the point in trying to copy this standard.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Mercedes has changed the way it names its cars over the years. In the 1960's the C or E or S class was yet to be invented. The names were just numbers, 220, 250, 280 and 300.

    BMW had a 2002 model at one time, which became the current 3-series.

    Things change...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Well, the letters just came to signify equipment levels, and now they signify model lineups...a similar idea. Really, they mean same thing as they ever have. You can go back to the original M-B merger, and find naming policy that is similar to today. Same for BMW, go back 70 years...the same logic existed. People are used to it. Details change, but the principle remained the same.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    Things change...

    Yeah, but I don't have to like it, con sarn it! ;) The number series Cadillacs were before my time, so I only identify with the names.

    Alphanumeric designations can be okay, when they make sense, and the Europeans seem better at that. Volvo uses C (coupe), S (Saloon or Sedan) and V (Versatile or Vagon). They used to use 242, 244, 245 for 2.4 litre, two, four, or five door, etc. As I understand it, BMW numbers equate to the series and engine size. To me Mercedes' C = Corporate, E = Executive, and S = Stinking Rich.

    CTS = Catera Touring Sedan? DTS = deVille Touring Sedan? STS = ...well, you get it. That makes a little sense. Lincoln's current naming makes little sense.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    I realize I'm definately in the minority here, but I like the new 'names'(if you can call them that). I'm only 18, and when I hear the names DeVille and Seville, that means nothing to me--nothing positive I should say.

    Besides, when I buy a car the name means nothing; I want the car to be memorable not the name. In fact, I think the make name, rather than the model's is what's important.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Not clear to me what platforms will be used.

    It will not be tne FWD DTS so that one is out and all that is left in the big size is Sigma. Unless they come up with some kind of ultra zeta architecture.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    All volume lux vehicles use numbers or letters.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    That wasn't always the case, but it may be so now. Anyway, letters and numbers seem to be the current vogue, and I'll adjust (no choice). I just miss the good old days that only existed in the minds of Republicans (nod to Ned Flanders).
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    Ah...See, when I was 18, Cadillac and Lincoln still used names, so that's why I think the way I do, and you think the way you do! They were still seen as the luxury cars most mainstream professionals aspired to, while Mercedes and BMW were the sporty rides the avant gard thinkers aspired to. Volvos and Saabs were for hippies, and Acura, Lexus and Infinity weren't here, yet. C'est la vie.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    my understanding is that the zeta platform is being developed to handle a wide range of sizes. It is also my understanding that development of the zeta is on hold again. Lutz has indicated that the zeta might be a platform for a V12 sedan.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    In the 1960's, the letters in the names usually were SEL for the long wheelbase models. My point was that their names have changed. Over the last 100 years Cadillac has had a number of naming schemes. Mercedes' names may have been more consistent over the same time frame, I don't know. I can't say that I really understand the current Mercedes scheme.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    is..........
    drumroll..........

    Audi!

    Everyone else is behind the times! Audi is excelling! Others are falling!

    Go Audi! ;)
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Audi? That's a VW, right?

    Maybe if you could compare it to a Caddy, you'd be a bit more on topic...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    S = Sonderklasse (deluxe) , E = Einspritzung (fuel injection), L - Lang (long). Easy stuff back then. You also had S and SE models. And of course, D models, and lowline cars had no letters at all.

    Today you have a letter or letters for the model, and numbers for engine size (sometimes approximated). It's even more simple now.

    Caddy had several decades of history with those old names. I do understand some of those decades were not ones one really wants to remember, but it still seems like a lot of model name equity tossed away.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    When I was 18, it was the inbetween time (mid 90s), so there were STS and SLS, but Seville was still around too. Also the goofy ETC name was alive. But I am pretty sure the DeVille was just that. Of course, by my day, a lot of these had been stereotyped as grandpa cars. Lexus sems to be rushing towards that role now.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    It's definately alot of brand equity to throw away, but I think one reason to do it is that the equity lies with a demographic Cadillac no longer wants to attract. They did the same thing with Oldsmobile(not your grandfather's Olds). I don't agree with that type of marketing, I'm just saying...
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Audi? Surely you jest. Oh - wait you were serious?

    Porsche is probably the benchmark for sportscars, without a doubt.

    For Passenger cars, though, that's trickier. Probably a tie between the S500(Mercedes *can* build great cars when it gives a damn) and the top-end Aston Martins. The DB9 is an astounding car that others rightfully try to copy.

    The rest are the rest. So be it. I like Cadillac because they cost a lot less than the others for what you get.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    Well, Audi has steadily improved reliability and dependability over the last few years (because they decided to "give a damn" long ago). Meanwhile, Mercedes has went the way of Chrysler (meaning lets build the biggest lemons in the world and try to fool the public into buying them; which must of been Chrysler's company motto for the last 30 years).

    Aston Martins.... how many have been built in the world to date? Is there a dealer in every major city? If not, don't count it.

    Porsche.... yes, they are fantastic, but they cost too much for 99% of the population. Audi is a more civilized choice.

    And yes, they are part of VW, but they are an INDEPENDENT part of the VW family.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    What exactly does the term mean, then?

    "Standard of the world" to me means the very best, price and production aside. The Aston Martins are very expensive(start at about $100-$110K, last time I checked) but they are at the very pinnacle of automotive engineering as well.

    As for their production, the company is approaching 100 years old and has made a LOT of vehicles in that time. They were merely near the top for a long, long time like Bentley and Mercedes and such, but about a decade ago, they went all-out and now produce amazing vehicles.

    Oh - there are currently 31 dealers in the U.S. and a few dozen worldwide outside of Europe. It counts as a proper manufacturer, IMO. It even makes racing cars.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aston_Martin

    The entire car is made by hand still - 200 hours.(okay, ONE robot is used to precisely spray adhesive on the frame to apply a few body panels - but none to assemble it) This is the very last car made like Mercedes and others used to do back in the 50s and 60s - by hand, no expense spared, everything must be perfect. And it shows. If you ever are lucky enough to test-drive one, you'll see what I mean. :shades:
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Audi has steadily improved reliability and dependability over the last few years (because they decided to "give a damn" long ago).

    Sorry, Audi is well below the industry average for 3 year reliability (10th from botom) and a bit below the industry average for initial quality.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...to be found on my car, I still refer to is as a "Seville STS" or simply "the Seville" when I decide which car to drive that day. I miss names like "Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance."

    Cadillac isn't the only victim of alphabet soup nomenclatures - look at Acura. Everybody knew what an Acura Legend was, but an Acura RL is quite anonymous. Same with the Integra. What is it now? I guess the TL is what was once the Vigor.
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