Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

bumpy

It's only confidence if the product can back up his claims. Otherwise, it's just trash talking.

sls002

With a Corvette pushrod engine the CTS_V will not have the kind of "refinement" that the European cars have. The AMG Mercedes cars are really the ones to beat.

sls002

The latest C&D put the CTS in the 10 best category. They also have a comparison test where it was ranked 3rd out of 4. Top was the BMW 328 with the Infinity G35 second. I think that the Infinity did not make it into the top ten though.

62vetteefp

In this case he is talking performance in the handling/speed venue.

fintail

Didn't he once also make a comment that the future lux market would be owned by Caddy and Lexus?

Nothing wrong with a little hype I guess, although nobody expects the upcoming CTS-V to be a bad car anyway.

150mphclub

Would this be the same Car and Driver magazine that rated the BMW #1 in its October 2005 comparison test of 8 sport sedans even though the brakes failed and put the car in a full spin? LOL

Car & Driver is nothing but a shill for BMW.

sls002

If that is true, then why have they consistently rated the Cadillac SRX the best midsize luxury SUV :confuse:

sls002

I think that the first generation CTS V-series outperformed the M3, but even so sales of the V-series seems not to have done much. On the otherhand, my understanding has been that Cadillac did not expect to sell very many V-series models anyway, as they are mostly for show. I really can't see why anyone would really want one. A Corvette makes more sense.

jkr2106

...more sense for who? Some people (not me, BTW) need 4 doors others can't fit in a low-slung coupe. What ever the reason, General Motors in theory should have a car for everyone.

62vetteefp

Didn't he once also make a comment that the future lux market would be owned by Caddy and Lexus?

That would be interesting. Do you have a link?

sls002

The whole point of the lower end BMW's (the 3-series and 5-series) is to make a sedan with the handling of a sports cars for people who would like a sports car but need a sedan. The M-series BMW's was to make a high performance version of whichever model (there are several M-series models) for the purpose of competition rather than sales. The success of the M-series models in competition would add to the luster of the BMW name, which would not harm sales of the standard models.

I do not seem many M-series BMWs around here (but we don't have a BMW dealer nearby either). I have seen an older M3 or M5 from time to time, but it may be one of very few in this area. There are quite a few BMWs though

When Cadillac first proposed the V-series models, the idea was to limit sales, although that seems not to be needed. The point was to have a model to compete with the M-series BMW's. From my point of view, for the money, the V8 STS would make far more sense than a V-series CTS. And really, the CTS_V is not much of a family sedan, the STS is a bigger car and for the money would make way more sense.

As I see it though, the CTS_V has failed to become "king of the hill" in the super sport sedan category. The CTS_V seems more of a hotrod sort of vehicle than a high performance entry level luxury sports sedan. I think this not the right image for Cadillac. Worse, the STS_V was never really seriously close to "king of the hill" in its category. However, the STS_V is probably a better daily driver than either the BMW M5 or the comparable Mercedes AMG 63 E-class model.

jkr2106

And really, the CTS_V is not much of a family sedan, the STS is a bigger car and for the money would make way more sense.

Okay, I understand your POV, but if we're talking about money, don't buy a Cadillac (or a BMW/Mercedes for that matter)! These are all want cars so I'm not sure anyone can rationalize the purchase of one toy over another when all most people really need is a Cobalt/4-cyl Malibu. Also, everyone doesn't equate a larger car with opulence. Personally, I can't wait for a CTS-V coupe (CTC?) automatic to come out. Yeah, its too much money. Yeah, it doesn't haul as many as an Impala. Yeah, it will be garish and in-your-face like the sedan, but it's what I want. GM is the largest auto corp on the globe. They should be able to operate in every market regardless of what makes sense. It's a car, not a Roth IRA. Have fun!

sls002

Ok, I do understand that the first generation CTS_V was a hurry up quick, we need it now, so lets put the Corvette engine in.

However, Cadillac has had time to develop a serious Cadillac CTS_V engine. I would put the supercharged STS_V engine in it, but they should have developed a newer, better DOHC engine for the V-series cars. In fact I think that an engine is in development. So if a supercharged 4.8 liter DOHC V8 could be put in the CTS_V with about 500 lb-ft of torque, this engine might be good enough to hold its own in this performance category.

marsha7

annoys me at times...GM, or Gord, will "hurry up" and throw something together in order to compete with the latest hot seller from XXX, and then worry about how to make it run later...which is why, IMO, the perception of quality in Big 3 cars has suffered far beyond the junk of the 70s, 80s, and part of the 90s...

If they simply took an extra few months (and I mean a few months, with the resources of a GM or Ford) and built it right they could have a hit on their hands without all the "it could be a great car, BUT..." comments, and then they spend the next few years trying to get the bad taste out of the initial buyers mouths who will never buy another one again, and jump over to the import, never to return to USA cars again...

And this pattern does seem to repeat over and over again...maybe it did not with the 40th year Mustang, simply because Ford actually had a bean counter who could do the math and figure out, well in advance, when the 40th anniversary of the Mustang would be, giving them adequate time to plan ahead...

jkr2106

Ooh I definitely agree with that! GM does that all the time. Great CTS and Malibu no bluetooth. Nice pickups no 6speed. They are sooo guilty of that its ridiculous. Let's just hope the CTS-V will be different (although recent speculation suggests otherwise).

PS--(before I get flamed) I like/am indifferent to pushrods. Caddy wants to alter its perception. Meanwhile the majority of media/enthusiasts are against pushrods esp. in this application. I'm not saying who's right, but if you can't beat 'em, join em.

fintail

If I had a link I wouldn't be asking the question :P

I swear I read something like that once though, and it seems so typical of his bluster.

cooterbfd

GM, or Gord, will "hurry up" and throw something together in order to compete with the latest hot seller from XXX, and then worry about how to make it run later...

True enough when you look at the failed GM diesel as an example. However, when you consider that the original CTS-V came with a Corvette engine, not just a V-8 from the "parts bin", that is enough to put it in a different category than just "hurry up and push it out". A lot of engineering went into that motor as well.

The last gen of RWD GM cars (Caprice, Roadmaster, etc.) came with a tuned down version of the Corvette engine. Now, 12 model yrs after it went out of production, these cars are beginning to attract attention, not just for their motors either.

rockylee

With a Corvette pushrod engine the CTS_V will not have the kind of "refinement" that the European cars have. The AMG Mercedes cars are really the ones to beat.

Those AMG automobiles cost 2-3 times as much also !!!!

-Rocky

aldw

The DOHC Ultra V8 should be around 2009, coinciding with the CTC release, that will be an engine worthy enough to make the CTS-V face off against a M5, rather than a hotrod special.

british_rover

Those AMG automobiles cost 2-3 times as much also !!!!

No they don't

E55 and C63 vs CTS-V and STS-V

sls002

I have nothing against pushrods either. Generally speaking a pushrod engine with somewhat larger displacement can produce about as much torque and horsepower as a similar DOHC engine. The base 3.6 DOHC V6 compares with the 3.9 V6 for example.

However, the multivalve DOHC engines are considered premium engines, and Cadillac should be a premium make, so I think that only premium engines should be used. I don't know what they are planning though.

sls002

I was thinking more of the AMG C63 (not yet out, but will probably cost under $70,000). The AMG E63 is about $90,000 (with options). The E63 V8 outperforms the BMW M5 with its over the top V10.

british_rover

Ehh I screwed up that was the E63 and yes it is priced at around 90k but that isn't double of what a STS-V costs at around 75k.

That isn't even double, although it is close, of what a last gen CTS-V costs. I am sure there will be a significant price increase for the CTS-V as well.

marsha7

Ok, but I think you get my point...just because an engine was a Corvette engine, admittedly with a lot of engineering behind it, it is often the rest of the car that is "thrown together" (big exception WAS the Olds diesel that was a gas engine with high compression, but cylinder walls and main bearings only designed for the pressures of gasoline combustion...didn't ANY college graduate engineer KNOW that design would self destruct faster than a Mission Impossible instruction tape after its message was delivered???)

Poorly designed seats or dash, simply other aspects that require more time but get rushed in the heat to compete, and then the bad taste becomes even more bitter when you go to trade in that first model and find out it is worthless...

A measured response to competetive pressures would be better so that the initial reviews of car XYZ make people want to buy it, rather than the reviews that call it a (New japanese car Name) wannabe...

That's all I mean...the great engine from the Vette will not overcome a dashboard that falls apart, uncomfortable seats, or sluggish steering or bad brakes...

rockylee

That was more less the path I was going on. The next M5 I imagine will be pushing the six-figure envelope. Hell the M3 is what sixty something thousand now ??? The CTS is more M5 than M3 in size.

-Rocky

british_rover

The current M5 already pushes 100,000 if you get every single option.

fintail

What's the real size difference between 3er-5er-CTS? A few inches?

I still don't believe a single soul cross-shops 5er with CTS. Germans (along with the premium Japanese now) have established a very successful three-tier lineup for decades...competing with a two tier lineup doesn't bump you up because your low tier is closer in length to the middle tier of the competition than the lower (by a couple inches). Price is the important variable. The way I see it today, Caddy has a low and middle tier (CTS, STS), but no upper tier (S, 7er).

british_rover

cars.com to the rescue again

The new CTS is half an inch longer then the 5 series and about a foot longer then the 3 series sedan.

The STS is about 5.5 inches longer then the 5 series.

rockylee

Well supposably the new STS/DTS replacement is suppose to fix that and be a competitor to the S, 7er in size and function.

-Rocky

sls002

I don't think that your comments about the Olds diesel are accurate. I owned one, and did not have serious problems with it while I owned it (up to 75,000 miles). As I understand it, the Olds diesel did get a different block. The crankshaft was from the 455 HO Toronado engine designed for 400 horsepower.

The real problem with the Olds diesel was that the fuel system did not protect the fuel injection pump from water, which would blow out the gaskets leaving you dead when the water got to the pump. The pump failure might also have taken out some engines. I always went to truckstops to get diesel fuel, thinking that they knew how to manage their fuel dumps to limit water problems.

imidazol97

I recalled the block was modified or rebuilt for diesel. It wasn't just a 350 or 400 cu in block off the shelf as some GM haters would try to imply. And the part where it was the real world users and fuel quality problems that caused trouble. People who drove them like trucks and fueled at good sources and maintained their fuel for cold weather didn't run into problems.

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_V8_engine#LF9

Go down to the section on Oldsmobile Intake Leak Problems and Oldsmobile Diesel problems. The article seems fairly written about the etymology of the diesels head problems: fuel quality, excess pressures, and failure at a weak spot that didn't happen when driven with quality fuel.

fintail

Wow, that new CTS has grown. Still, I don't see that as moving it up a category - it's market position/price, not size.

I know this has been discussed ad nauseum, but I will say that if there is going to be one model to replace the STS/DTS and if it intends to compete in the 70K+ market, it will have to be both big and RWD...where will the DTS people go? Buick I guess.

sls002

The CTS is only an inch and a half (1.5 inches) longer than the first generation CTS. In terms of size, the CTS was and still is about the size of the 5-series BMW. However, Cadillac is marketing it as a 3-series class vehicle.

The DTS and Buick Lucerne will share the same fate. Both will go out of production. However, while the DTS and STS may become a new RWD model(s) on a new platform, what Buick will get is somewhat less clear. Probably Buick will get a RWD sedan too. FWD DTS people could go to Lincoln.

fintail

Interesting...I guess thats a credit to Caddy, the CTS doesn't look as big as it is.

I always believed there was some kind market in the US for a large moderately priced FWD car - I know the DTS has its fans.

sls002

I liked my first FWD car (an 83 Skyhawk) because it was very good on icy roads and in snow. I was still happy with my 86 Electra T-type. However, the last FWD's were bad about scraping their frontends on pavement on any steeper than usual driveway. I am quite happy with my AWD SRX, and we have had some snow that I took it out in to play. Not really enough snow to test traction, but icy enough to slide around in.

For those who want FWD for icy traction, AWD is probably a much better solution. Most DTS owners want a big car more than anything. I think when Cadillac brought out the 85 FWD deVille, many owners thought the old RWD Fleetwood was more the car they wanted. On the otherhand, most just bought "deVille" without paying much attention to anything but the series name.

lemko

Well, when I bought my first FWD car ever - a new 1994 Cadillac DeVille - in November 1993, I was skeptical. My uncle had a 1988 Ford Tempo on which he wrecked the FWD transaxle hitting a curb. My then girlfriend's VW kept eating CV joints like they were going out of style. However, my Caddy's FWD configuration turned out to be ultra reliable, handled extremely well in the snow and foul weather, and I no longer had to go through the snow tire ritual every November and April. I guess you could count me among the FWD DTS' fans. Now, if the DTS or its successor went to RWD/AWD, I most certainly wouldn't abandon it for another make and most certainly not Lincoln. If FWD was of paramount importance to me, I'd sooner defect to Acura.

fintail

AWD...I overlooked that option.

I am sure Caddy makes some money from those wanting a large car but don't want to spend 70K for it...they've sold at least one black example lately anyway. I have to wonder if that segment will stick around.

bumpy

Lincoln MKS.

Someone has to buy them.

louiswei

Toyota Avalon and Hyundai Azera.

anythngbutgm

Infiniti M, Hyundai Genesis

sls002

I think that you would buy any larger Cadillac that meets your needs whether it was FWD or RWD. The question that I was responding to was what would people do who wanted FWD in a large sedan package. GM is going to phase out the G-body platform (Lucerne and DTS) around 2010. A large FWD platform is not expected to replace it. Rather the global RWD platform will replace it, but the midsize FWD platform (elpsilon 2) will get somewhat bigger and will be the largest FWD GM car platform I think. However, the lambda platform (Buick Enclave...) is FWD/AWD.

I have found that my SRX is easier to maneuver than my Seville (shorter turning radius). Your DTS is probably worse.

stever

Australia to get Cadillac

First time there since 1969.

jkr2106

Rather the global RWD platform will replace it, but the midsize FWD platform (elpsilon 2) will get somewhat bigger and will be the largest FWD GM car platform I think.

You're right, but I'd like to point out that Epsilon-II will be available in varying lengths, so yes it will get bigger, but it will also have a bigger version available for (hopefully) an Avalon competitor at Chevrolet.

62vetteefp

The issue with the current Eps is that it cannot get wide enough to be a sorta true 6 passenger vehicle like the Impala/LaCrosse/W cars. The W cars have a bit more interior room than the current Eps but it is mostly in width. The Avalon has 1" -3" more interior width than the Camry depending on where you measure.

So perhaps the new Eps II will be flexible in width and able to get the wider back seat of the FWD W's and Lucerne/DTS.

BUT I can pretty much say Cadillac will never get a vehicle based on the EPS II to replace the DTS. So why is this thread here??

jkr2106

BUT I can pretty much say Cadillac will never get a vehicle based on the EPS II to replace the DTS. So why is this thread here??

I certainly hope not, but you never know...

Back to Cadillac, though. The rumors of a Cadillac V12 are surfacing again: V12 under development? I can't wait!

bumpy

Neo Twin-Six. I would assume that any Cadillac V12 would be direct-injected, so about 600ish horsepower. And if they decide to give the DTS-V quad turbos...

sls002

try to keep up - the original question was what would people do for FWD when the DTS is no longer FWD. The point I made was that GM's biggest FWD platform for cars would probably be the EPS II. I also suggested that Cadillac would not have FWD, but that the biggest FWD platform would probably be the lambda (but probably not for cars).

The W platform is also going out, replaced by the EPS II.

Perhaps the RWD DTS will come from down under?

sls002

there is a noise problem with the DI 3.6 which can't be fixed without a redesign. While the V12 could be a double 3.6, perhaps enough redesign would be involved to fix the noise problem. The point of a V12 would be refinement, and noise is not refinement.

rockylee

Hows that DTS, treating you pal ??? Do you have the massaging seat feature ? Ventilated seats ? If so lemme know how they "feel" pal !!!!

-Rocky

lemko

Actually it does! You can get a shiatsu massage for 10 minutes when the massage button is pressed. It's too cold to try out the ventilated seats, but it has 'em. I also got to try out the heated washer fluid last night. You click a switch, the fluid warms, and four sweeps of the wipers and the windshield is completely clear of snow and ice! My co-workers are outside fumbling with scrapers.