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Yep !!!!
-Rocky
However, I do think that you get something for the extra money that the BMW's cost. Road & Track was set to do a comparison of the CTS with a 6 cylinder 5-series but after seeing the price difference decided not to, but did have a "side bar" comparison. They say that the CTS is not in the 5-series "class".
Cadillac designed the CTS to be an entry level (or near luxury) sport sedan, like the BMW 3-series. I think that the CTS is a basic sigma body design, while the STS is a premium sigma body design. What this should mean is that the STS has some extra body components to beef up the overall body stiffness and overall refinement. The STS should be a more refined vehicle than the CTS in terms of noise, vibration and harshness (NVH). I do know that my 2002 Seville was very quite and I could see some of the things that were done to the Seville to reduce NVH compared to my 98 Aurora.
It is clear to me that you have little real understanding of what goes into making a high end luxury car.
The CTS and STS are both on the Sigma architecture. The STS actually has less structural rigidity because some improvements were made with the newer CTS but it was not significant. But there are other improvements that make the CTS a more "refined" vehicle than the old STS.
And you are right, the CTS is not in the same "class" as the 5 series. The 5 series costs a whole bunch more and has more content.
As I see it, if Cadillac can build something that is very good, but not quite class leading, and can sell it for much less money, this is a good thing. I have not looked at the new CTS, but I will be needing an oil change and tire rotation soon, and if they have one on the showroom floor I will look at it.
I wouldn't go that far pal !!!!.
-Rocky
Honestly I like Mercedes Benz, automobiles but really the LS, offers as many luxury features as the S-Class. The S-Class, has the tradition of being the top dog luxury car but if I was spending my hard earned money a LS, would get a second look if Cadillac, wasn't a option.
-Rocky
Well I'd like you to explain to me this so-called knowledge you have that I some how don't have. :confuse: Paying a six-figure MSRP doesn't make a high-end luxury car and that is basically the conclusion I'm coming up with. You really haven't presented enough evidence to me on how a S-Class, is so much higher end than a LS 460, or how a Bimmer 5 Series, is higher end than a CTS.
The way I look at it is people are flushing good money down the toilet for a emblem. They might think they are driving the best but in reality they are driving a second rate, over-hyped, expensive, so-called high-end automobile. So if a $700 dollar night vision device that most people won't use equals high end then man what would a 40 gig hard drive, 5.1 surround sound, ventilated seats, to name just a few would do to your impression of luxury !!!!
-Rocky
Your point of view seems to be that he with the most toys (so what if they were all made in China at the lowest cost) wins. I am saying that the number of toys is not important, but what is important is how well each and every toy is built. Cadillac tried to build a higher end model in the late 50's with your concept of what would make the car better, more toys. The Eldorado Brougham was in production for a few years and they only managed to sell a few hundred. Cadillac should have made the Eldorado Brougham on a better body and frame than using the standard body and frame. This would have probably been too expensive.
If Cadillac is going to use the global RWD platform (also used to make the Camaro) for the next generation DTS/STS, I wonder what they are going to do to make the body structure better than the Camaro's or for that matter, the Pontiac G8. If the Cadillac's do not have a better body structure, then they will not be premium cars.
One example of body stiffness is this: When my old Buick dealer was still in business I owned a number of Buicks, including an 86 Electra T-Type. When I would bring it in for service (oil changes...) they would put it on a lift and all four corners of the car would settle onto the four lift points. When I first brought my 1995 Buick Riviera (the first GM G-body with a Mercedes like (E-class) body structure) in for its oil change, they put it on the same lift, but only three corners settled on the lift point, because the Riviera's body was so stiff, it did not bend down to the four lift points. The point here is that if you put an E-class onto a lift with four lift points that are not quite in a plane, the E-class will settle onto the four points (for example), but an S-class put on the same lift will not settle onto the lift points.
I don't know if the STS body was designed to be better than the first generation CTS, but it should have been better if for no other reason than that Cadillac had production CTS's to help them design a better body. However, if the STS is not much better than the first generation CTS, this might be part of the STS's problem in the comparison tests that it has been in. The STS has not done badly in comparison test, but it has not done well either. The new CTS has yet to win a comparison test too.
I hope this is helpful, but you do need to have some understanding of automotive body design and the physics behind it. It is not the toys that matter, it is the basic design that counts. One problem is that the body stiffness is not published (as far as I know) and there would have to be some standard of measure for it to make sense anyway. What I see advertised is that improvements are made to increase stiffness by so many percent, which is meanless unless you know what it was before and how it is measured. The G-body stiffness was supposed to make it vibrate at 25 hz (if I recall correctly) while the previous generation big FWD bodies vibrated at 15 hz. What is really important is that the old GM bodies would flex enough that the flex would soak up some of the bumps in the road and this was part of GM's suspension tuning. Stiffer bodies mean that the suspension tuning is more predictable.
If body stiffness was so important then hell a Smart 42, is one of the most luxurious automobile on the planet because you can hit a concrete barracade at 70 mph and live.
And as far as those "gadgets" in those Mercedes, being made well they fail their too because Mercedes, rates very low in JD, the bible CR, in reliability because those gadgets fail.
-Rocky
http://caddyedge.com/news/2007/09/17/cadillac-confirms-unified-stsdts-and-strong- ly-hints-at-sub-cts-model/
First of all, in response to what they are terming ‘shrinkage’ in the segments occupied by the current STS and DTS, Taylor admitted that “we don’t need two entries there anymore”. This pretty much confirms along with his later confirmation that, in AN’s words “the idea of a flagship sedan for Cadillac is still alive.”
So, expect a 7-series/S-Class competitor from Cadillac in a few years.
Another angle:
http://blogs.motortrend.com/6216894/car-news/cadillac-confirms-it-will-replace-d- ts-sts-with-one-model/index.html
Underlying all that Grand Am has to offer, there's a world-class body structure designed by means of advanced computer-aided techniques to optimize stiffness while minimizing weight. The Grand Am's 25 Hz body rigidity sets a standard for the compact class. It's on par with world-class luxury vehicles from Mercedes, BMW and Cadillac.
A four-wheel independent suspension builds on this foundation. Aluminum suspension knuckles reduce unsprung weight for responsive ride and handling. Torque-axis powertrain mounting uses two mounts to support the mass of the engine and transaxle and two others specifically tuned to resist torque and damp idle vibrations. Mounting Grand Am's power rack-and-pinion steering system directly to the hydroformed chassis cradle provides precise on-center feel with excellent isolation of road disturbances.
http://media.gm.com/division/pontiac/products/eng_tran/grandamov.html
I had a Black 2001' 75th Ann. Edition and trust me the body was pretty darn stiff pal.
-Rocky
P.S. If I someday can get my pics back from my ex-wife to be I'll post em' on my carspace.
Like Mariah Carey, said in the song "Make You Happy"
"Baby let me make you happy, take you riding' in my Caddy"
Trey Lorenz & Mariah Carey - Make You Happy (From Men in Black soundtrack)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlbF_P8Y3WM
-Rocky
62' this one is for you pal !!!!
-DaRock
Of course this does raise the question of how stiff is stiff enough. Adding more stiffness requires either more expensive alloys or more weight (and probably both). To address your previous post, body structure is only one thing in the big picture of who is really best. The only way to determine who is best is to have comparison tests. The car magazines do comparison tests, and while no one magazine should be considered the ultimate voice, I think that if one considers what Automobile, Car & Driver, Motor Trend, and Road & Track think, then one can make up one's own mind about what the consensus opinion is.
This is what Road & Track said about the CTS vs the 5-series: "BMW is impressive...from the quality of its interior material to the refinement of the engine. The 535 manages to blend the supplest ride to the most voracious appetite for apexes...."
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1257689&postcount=178
Yea, and the car runs on water. About the same possibility.
No, most likely the number is closer to 35 than anywhere near 50. Almost impossible. Improvements are still being made but it is taking a lot of expensive high strength steel and weight. A 10% improvement is huge when a new architecture is brought in and that means that the 25 (2.5 improvement) would be 27.5 and over a couple models you may be up to 35 today.
Anyway have you noticed that manufacturers are not touting numbers anymore for stiffness? Because like quality the stifness's are approaching rock solid and most are all in the same ball park.
Caddy was the standard of AMERICA. That's it. No more, no less. When they were supposedly Standard of the World if U would've taken those same cars over to Germany's Autobahn and they would've been run off the road because they weren't high performance. So they wouldn't fit Germany's "standard." But here they were just fine.
When the competition from the imports stepped up and Americans discovered other cars, Caddy didn't respond. They were complacent. Quality slipped. As a result they lost huge amounts of market share. They are finally out of the starting gate, but the other horses (Toyota, Lexus, BMW, Merc, etc.) are already 200 yards ahead and in full stride.
Caddy has turned it around, but they're playing catch-up.
When is the "future?"
Good point. In the early 90's I was looking to buy a Caddy. BMW was the furthest thing from my mind. I ended up getting a Park Ave instead.
Several years later when I decided to get another car I got a BMW. Caddy wasn't on my list of choices at that point. When it's time to replace the Bimmer I'm looking at either another BMW or a Benz. I think the new Caddys are nice, but I don't see people who'd buy 1 as a person who'd seriously consider a Bimmer or Benz.
Just different target markets and buyers.
I know this is the Caddy board, but quite a few people like the car C Class and it's selling quite well.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/474485/mercedesbenz_usa_reports_highest- _november.html
Mercedes-Benz Records Best November Sales Ever
MBUSA Sales Up 3.4 Percent for the Month; 2.8 Percent for the Year-to-Date
MONTVALE, N.J., Dec. 3 /PRNewswire/ -- Mercedes-Benz USA (MBUSA)
achieved its highest November sales volume on record with 22,819 units sold
for the month, a 3.4 percent increase over last November's 22,079 record
volume. This brings MBUSA's year-to-date sales total to 225,904 units - a
2.8 percent increase over the same period last year - which keeps
Mercedes-Benz on track for accomplishing its 14th consecutive year of
annual sales growth.
Sales of the Mercedes-Benz C-Class rose 56 percent (6,920 units vs.
4,435 units) for the month, and 26.3 percent compared to last year's
year-to-date results (56,802 vs. 44,990).
Costs less, is more reliable... the new CTS is aimed at the type of person who buys their car and keeps it for 10-12 years. And it's going to make a lot of imports have to do some work....
The million dollar question is how will it drive? People who drive BMW's enjoy the driving aspect because they handle so well. If the driving experience is what people are looking for and the CTS doesn't deliver then it's all for naught, damn the interior...
I hope the new Caddys not only drive well after 10-12 years, but look the part also. That's an important aspect also. I see many older Caddy's that look pretty weathered.
But like U said, we'll have to see.
And great handling! Can't forget that small tidbit of info... lol
I liken them to Buick also.
Does anyone here think that GM is going to officially release info on the 2011 products other than the Volt?? Everything here and on the web is supposition based on guess's and insider info.
I think at this time GM is working on getting approval on a high line Cadillac which will be RWD. Now what platform? Well since it has been said that the Sigma cannot go big enough then a different platform will have to be the basis. I think a revised Zeta could do it. But the kicker is how much revision it will take to make it competitive. That is the financial package that I am sure they are working on and Lutz is trying to convince the NASB to allow them to work on it.
If Cadillac can get back it's image of a top line vehicle (does not have to be the best, just considered a premium lux vehicle) then sales will come back. Heck, the CTS sales are already back. Just need to keep them going and introduce more vehicles with the same panache.
GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner in October confirmed GM Holden is to play a role in the development of a new small rear-wheel-drive architecture, known internally as Alpha, that reportedly will underpin a new Cadillac model to be positioned below the CTS in size.
The car would replace the European-built Cadillac BLS, based on the front-wheel-drive Epsilon architecture shared with such cars as the Saab 9-3 and Chevrolet Malibu.
Wagoner said Alpha is a strictly premium engineering base, most accurately described as a BMW 3-Series rival, and intended to transform Cadillac from a “niche global player” to a serious presence in the luxury car field.
The architecture reportedly combines elements of GM’s existing Kappa global architecture used for the Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky roadster with the auto maker’s modified Australian-derived Zeta platform.
Launch of the new model is set for 2011, and Australia is on the radarscope when it comes to help with engineering. “Our focus is on getting it right,” Wagoner said at the time. “That means not making it too expensive, or too heavy.”
"At around 3,500 lbs, the X-Type is heavy for its size, but, according to Tivey, this results from exceptional torsional stiffness (22,000 Nm/deg; many other sedans are in the mid-teens range) "
more numbers
They aint exactly resale kings, so they are indeed priced high - the market says what it should cost.
There's an article in the current Motor Trend I think that doesn't bash the car.
Pontiac didn't kill off the Grand Am name for no reason...
Since it looks like the 7 series competitor will be engineered in Australia and Holden looks to become the RWD Engineering source (Alpha/Zeta) I bet they will come up with two platforms with a flexible range of content, size and price points.
Lower Alpha- future Solstice/Sky/Opel/???
Premium Alpha- BLS with a range of body styles possible and using premium materials and content to make it competitive. More usage of high strength steel, aluminum and magnesium.
Lower Zeta-G8, Impala?, Statesman, other lower priced RWD.
Premium Zeta- STS replacement, future CTS??
That's a good point. Corvette has withstood the test of time. These cars have "evolved" like Mercedes & BMW have. U can see the change in them over the years, but make no mistake, everyone can the similar lines between a new "Vette" and an old Stingray...
Mustang has had it's problems, but they are more popular than ever...
Which brings me to Caddy. Where's the disconnect? I know Americans can build good cars. I just we did it consistently over all makes, ESPECIALLY Cadillac.
I agree. I hope so. I'd like to see them come back. It won't be easy, but anything's possible.
Are you kidding me. The CTS was designed as a young persons car. The others including the SUV's, SRX cross-over could be considered youth oriented if they have the money. The foreign offerings you listed above are all over $30,000 so the CTS would fall within those
That may be who they are geared toward, but here in Florida, I see a lot of middle aged people driving them. & I see them EVERYWHERE. Down here, Caddy cars are reserved for the baby boomers still.
Personally, when I think of Caddy I think of big cars. I don't see small cars. I do like their convertible, but it seems like I'm the only person on the PLANET who likes it...lol :shades:
If they did do a small car, they MUST get it right the 1st time. MUST. It MUST be a looker, MUST handle well, MUST be reliabe, and MUST have a GREAT interior. As much as I want them 2 succeed, I'm not so sure they can do that...
If the convertible didn't do well I'm not so sure a coupe or small car would either. I think they need to stay with larger cars, and seriously look at a car to compete with the 7,S, LS and 8.
I have NEVER seen a young person drive one.
If you say "Quality", people will say, "Lexus"
If you say "Driving", people will say, "BMW"
If you were brave enough to say "Status", people will say
"Mercedes.
I agree with your points. Each of the above cars are luxury cars, but thay also have a niche that pretty much everyone recognizes. What is Caddy's image? What are they trying to convey?
I don't know. I think that's a crucial part of the business model and they need to find it soon.
LOL I was with U till U said you'd take your 1988 Park Ave over a Lexus...lol I'm not a lexus fan, but there's no comparison...lol
If you say "Driving", people will say, "BMW"
Yeah, driving to the dealership for every minor issue that crops up that's going to cost me $1K every time. Not to mention I'd rather be considered an old codger, pimp, or a mafioso than a yuppie geek
If you were brave enough to say "Status", people will say
"Mercedes"
Yeah, maybe a W126 S-Class or older. A newer M-B just says a rich fool with a lot of money or a middle-class loser who's frontin'
U have to drive a Bimmer or Benz to understand why people still buy them even though they have/had reliabilty problems. I have an old Bimmer and that car drives so good it's scary. The W140 Mercedes is still an incredible car even though it's expensive to maintain.