Pontiac Aztek

akajoe

Yes, US carmakers are for profit organizations. They use to laugh about quality control and car customer satisfaction: "those aren't our real customers, the people buying our stock are our real customers."

Since the early 1900's when mass produced autos, and when Alfred Sloan united Buick, Olds, Caddilac, etc. under one roof called GM by going to Wall St. to raise the money to make the mergers into a dominant force, (thereby forcing Ford to become publicly traded, Chrysler and Dodge and Plymouth to do likewise), auto makers have been "for profit." Frankly, for the amount of capital and effort they need to invest to make the profits they do, I can't blame them for being such bean counters.

US auto industry has always been deregulated (if you don't count the tri-opolistic behavior of the big 3), whereas in Europe and Japan, their industries have been protected by government policy. As a result, automakers in those countries and continents have been on some kind of mission. In Europe, it was ideology, culture and socialism that drove them. In Japan, it was nationalism and their culture if incessant refinement and striving for perfection.

This is not to say that the US doesn't have the cultural and artistic influences to produce high quality. It means that they have been much more driven by profits - to do otherwise could have meant their demise without assistance from the government.

You will notice that since the late 80's, Europe has largely deregulated their auto industries and BMW, Daimler-Benz, Porche-Audi-VW have had to become publicly traded companies as their respective governments have divested their ownership in the interest of fostering capitalism. The results are starting to show - Daimler-Chrysler is undergoing massive losses, BMW have had severe pressure from shareholders with respect to botched acquisitions of Land Rover, etc.

The Japanese car companies aren't immune to this as well. With the financial systems in Japan on the verge of collapse from bad loans made to cover previous bad loans, credit is not available to the Japanese goliaths like before. They are publicly traded, and have to answer to shareholders now. While the premium brands like Lexus, Acura, and Inifinity will probably be preserved in their "cachet of premium quality and cutting edge features", the bread and butter brands will come under pressure. The likes of Nissan (now owned by Renault), Mitsubishi, and Subaru are bleeding red ink. Mergers are likely.

The US car makers aren't incompentent. All design and engineering is done on computers and robotic equipment. No one countries computers or software is better than another's, software providers sell to any company in any country. The difference has been that the US companies have had to play be different rules - the rules of Wall St. And Wall St. is the most unforgiving of all.

enzo550

People say this is ugly - and rightly so- but what about that mess called the P/T Cruiser - it's a hearse.

A suckers car.

zircon

Enzo - I suspect you're right. I cannot believe the premium they get for a souped-up Neon. Interesting, though. I had to travel the other day and rented a PT. You wouldn't believe the gawking etc. One neighbour demanded to drive it - he and his wife (who own a Mercedes) cruised for the better part of an hour in it, and reported how cool they thought it was. I think they are considering buying one now. The appeal lasted about 10 minutes to me.

lbthedog: let's not take this personally, man. What I meant was that many of the vehicles that rate poorly in collision off-set testing etc. are 'domestics'. People do focus on safety today and that is the precise reason Ford markets it ad nausem for the Windstar ( a very safe vehicle) and Taurus. It seems, however, that many of the 'foreign' brands build safety in from the initial design, not as afterthoughts. The new civic is an example; same for all VWs.

rrsmith2

Please see my post in the Care & Maintenance board. Just wondering if anyone else has had similar problems.

Thx.
Rob

lspangler

I saw an Aztek friday that was the silver or light tan metallic color and the body molding was molded almost the same color except for the rear bumper which was black. Could this be the "new" design for 2002?

jmatero

I don't think it's fair to say that the "big three" don't/can't build safe cars. Examples: The Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable have always been safe vehicles compared to Japanese models of similar size/weight. The Ford Windstar is also a very safe vehicle. At DaimlerChrysler, the new Dodge Stratus Sedan just received 5-star ratings which is an accomplishment considering last years model was one of the worst performing (safety) autos on the market. They also just delayed the introduction of their new "CS" wagon to redesign the front end to ensure it gets 5-stars. GM also has a number of safe cars on the market. The Lumina has always been a top performer and the new Impala is quite safe as well. In fact, if you look at the list above, the big three are going out of their way to make thier "family" vehicles safe. Lets face it, safety IS a selling point... particularly if you transport kids. Hell, the new Sebring Sedan has a side air-curtain available. You won't find that on a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry. I just wanted to defend the US automakers... they can and do build some safe vehicles. I urge those interested in how "safety sells" to get the current issue of Motor Trend magazine. They also look at the NHTSA and IIHS to see how the crash tests work and provide some interesting statistics on what the public thinks of crash testing.

tonychrys

I propose that no one manufacturer produces an "unsafe" vehicle. But the bottom line is that the whole concept of modern driving is an "unsafe" process. You can better defend/equip yourself in dealing with mishaps that happen during the driving process by using a vehicle that is "safer" than it's peers.

The manufacturers don't knowingly produce deathtraps, but the reality is that Manufacturer A does place a greater priority on safety than Manufacturer B, who might place a priority on creature comforts. This is how manufacturers differentiate themselves from each other.

dannym11

"All design and engineering is done on computers and robotic equipment. No one countries computers or software is better than another's, software providers sell to any company in any country"

- different companies use different programs - custom software is pretty common. Also - remember that a computer can draft an idea and simulate forces but it doesn't actually design the car, and it doesn't lay down the initial specifications. I sometimes think that'e where GM's problems lie. Everything is far too driven by the marketing people. The Aztek would be a prime example of this - I'll bet the initial sketches of the Aztek were really cool looking , and the concept behind the vehicle is great. Then cost cutting/platform sharing/pontiac look front end... etc kick in and the car comes out looking nothing like those original renderings. Slap some big wheels on an Aztek and handle the cladding a little better and you've got a better looking vehicle. Spend a little less of the budget on promoting the thing and more on tweaking the platform of existing minivan and you've got something that could sell itself. I think they were so close to a major hit with this concept but shot themselves in the foot pushing it through the wrong way. The upcoming Vibe looks like a surefire winner though - really nice styling, (hopefully) decent price point and to top it all off - the reliability of a Toyota. Just don't let the marketers design the thing from the price point backwards - start with the car first...

oac3

an excellent piece by akajoe... hope people on this forum recognize the worth of the info on that post.

imo, safety and popularity are disjoints in today's auto market. "Popular" cars are NOT necessarily the "safest" cars out there. Sure, some consumers place safety as a premium on their car purchase, but not very many people do, I suspect. People are still taken in by the "looks" and "feel" of a car. Or, what their friends, neighbors, colleagues, etc... are driving, as an influence to what they buy and drive. Or, it could be lineage: my parents are Ford owners, so I prefer Fords... (not to mention, the discount one gets for being a "family" member).

Surveys are out showing the average household with computers. Cities like Seattle, San Diego, etc. rank high on these lists, but exactly how many of these computer-savvy households understand the power of on-line shopping for an auto - better deals, better choices, priceless information that dealers cannot give or ani't even familiar with, etc... I can bet that the # is far less than # of homes with PC's.

So what does all this tell ya ? Who cares if PT Cruiser looks ugly, it's a hit and lots more people love it than hate it, and DC is making a killing selling it. GM figured they could do same with the 'Tek, but somehow, the line between a 'hit' and a'dud' is so fine these days, it could come down to something as intangible as - mother luck !!! PT Cruiser has it, the 'Tek doesn't... and that, people, makes the difference.

akajoe: I appreciate more of your thoughts on this and other issues. Please keep them coming.

zircon

After not using my GM credit card the last couple of tyears, I am again using it. I am really interested in the Vibe and expect its quality to be high. Oddly, however, Nick the awesome mechanic across the road from work has the latest Celica GT with the 180 HP engine and manual tranny. He told me tolday how disappointed he is with it. We compared it to a 300zx (old one) he just fied and he said there is no comparison whatsoever - with the zx on top. He thinks Toyota quality clearly dropped. Also, Edmunds (?) just reviewed the celica and they don't like the shifter or rear sight lines. I am still intrigued enough, though, to wait till it comes out.

Good posts above re: saftey. I was thinking mainly of the highly publicized problems with Explorer versus its competitors, and Montana line versus Sienna and Odyssey.

kissfan1

Just back from 10 days in Las Vegas at the NAB. Saw about 15 AZTEKS in Vegas.

More importantly I had the opportunity to rent and drive a PORSCHE BOXSTER......Awesome experience. Had the vehicle up to 150mph.......Just Spectacular!!

; ) .....wearing the Porsche smile and the AZTEK wink!!!

mpyles1

Vegas is exactly where I'd expect to see lots of Azteks . . . goes with the jewelry out there. I've seen a grand total of 3 in New England since the vehicle's introduction (not counting, of course, the rows of them sitting on Pontiac dealers' back lots).

millergr

Hi all-

I just posted two new pics of our Yellow AWD Aztek in the Owners group.

Greg

dindak

Vegas is a great town. We were there in the summer and had a blast. Azteks seem to be selling OK around here. I see an Aztek driving around almost every day now.

tonychrys

But an unscientific poll of folks here shows that most of the Aztek owners are from Canada. There's obviously something about this design that appeals to our friends north of the border, yet the rest of the American public can't stand it.

If I was a GM marketing exec, I'd be doing some surveys ASAP.

rickrover

I'm amazed how many Azteks I see here in Florida. They are all over the place.

tonychrys

drew_

With such a small sample size, I would be hesitant to jump to that conclusion ;-) Personally, I have only seen three Azteks while driving around, and two of them were in Vancouver itself. Both were black. The others that I have seen are sitting in the dealers' lots usually at the back. I think the main problem is that an AWD Aztek's MSRP approaches RX300 territory, and even though there might be incentives and discounts, perhaps the average potential shopper looks at the pricing and is turned off immediately.

A Subaru Forester owner living in the Vancouver area snapped this picture:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292743515



Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

tonychrys

Drew, you're on the western side, correct? I suspect that all these Aztek owners are on the east side of the country. I could be wrong.

The Azzztek picture (you had to flip through the album) was very amusing. Folks either like this thing or hate it.

drew_

Yup, I'm on the west. The east has much larger cities, so perhaps that's why there seem to be a lot more of them around. Then again, some of those French Quebecquois people in Montreal have weird taste anyway, LOL, so who knows what they think!

Good luck,

Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

ultradr

has anyone set up the tent on their 'tek yet? just wondering how it went, don't see any set up instructions included with it. got my fwd maple red gt on friday. absolutely love it! should give my family some good ammo for razzing me.

zircon

A little political commentary. For the 1st 6 months, I saw perhaps 2 Azteks in the Windsor area. Now I see them daily. Either all the GM execs here are driving them, as per Detroit, or the price drop has worked wonders. I think it is a combination.

Welcome back Kissfan - the board was DEAD without you.

kissfan1

Drew......I'm ashamed of you "branding" AZTEK likers lovers as having WEIRD taste.

You know as well as I the AZTEK is refreshing and different. A trouble free vehicle delivering awesome value...........

Glad to be back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....... wearing my AZTEK ; ) smile

drzoom1

We have had out 'Tek for a whole 10 days...but we have not had any problems. Is their a "Lemon-law" in your state?

Good luck!

drzoom1

My wife, two boys (30 & 8 months) and myself (Brian) live in West Michigan and purchased our maple red GT 1sc 10 days ago. We luv it. My wife said our toddler cried on Monday when he had to ride in our '94 Buick to the grocery store (I drove the 'Tek to work).

I'm a civil engineer and the 'Tek is our third Pontiac in 9 years (one was purchased used).

The weather has been great the last week and we are planning a 3-day weekend to Traverse City with our 'Tek. We were planning on a hotel, but I think we are going to try the tent package. Anybody have any tent reviews?

gizmo15

about the price point being more of a deterrent than the design.

When I was looking to buy mine, a local dealer got in 5 GM exec driven Azteks. They were all fully loaded, including heated leather seats. On Saturday morning the dealer put an ad in the local paper offering them at $399 down/$399 a month (remember this is Canada where the list price is high). By Monday afternoon all five were gone...I know because I missed out on getting one.

That tells me Pontiace missed the boat on pricing, not design.

zircon

gizmo15

I hope you get a chance to use the tent package. It's too cold where I live (Halifax, Nova Scotia) to use it this time of year, but I'm dying to hear from someone who has used it.

Please give us a detailed review. Looking to see how easy it is to assemble, what kind of room inside, and how comfortable it is to sleep in.

Have a great weekend and fill us in when you get back.

drzoom1

Sounds like a lot of the 'Tek owners are "older" (30ish) with wife/kids. My wife and I car-pool to work in our 'Tek. Today I asked her if she would have bought the 'Tek if she were single? She said she would have spent the $20k+ on a 2-door sports car. I'm not sure if I would have...but I can not say I would not have. The Aztek would be a cool SRV for a road-tripping single guy. Either way, if GM was looking for the 20-something crowd to anchor the 'Tek, you can see why sales are slow.

So....if you are married w/wo kids and have purchased a 'Tek, would you have bought it as a single guy/girl?

zircon

drzoom1

My wife, two boys (30 & 8 months) and myself (Brian) live in West Michigan and purchased our maple red GT 1sc 10 days ago. We luv it. My wife said our toddler cried on Monday when he had to ride in our '94 Buick to the grocery store (I drove the 'Tek to work).

I'm a civil engineer and the 'Tek is our third Pontiac in 9 years (one was purchased used).

The weather has been great the last week and we are planning a 3-day weekend to Traverse City with our 'Tek. We were planning on a hotel, but I think we are going to try the tent package. Anybody have any tent reviews?

dindak

Most of the Azteks I see are full of kids going to school. I'd hardly call that weird. Although I would probably not buy an Aztek, I am getting used to them.

Noticed on Dark Angel tonight that the Aztek is also bullet proof. Another great selling feature!

;-)

tincup47

April sales, 2,394

jmatero

I REALLY think the problem was the price. I always thought the looks would "grow" on the public. But during that initial introduction phase (the first 6-12 months on sale) the look is "new" and when you couple that with the high price, you're setting yourself up for disaster. What I don't understand is WHY the price is was so high to begin with. The Montana doesn't cost that much. I could see if it was an all-new design with an all-new drivetrain and GM wanted to get their $$ back but it's not. I can't help but wonder if it was, say, $26,000 LOADED with AWD (Escape/Liberty territory) if it might have sold better. I guess we'll all find out in the fall when the 2002's show up. If the mild restyle doesn't REALLY IMPROVE sales and the price is still the same as the 2001..... BINGO.

Personally, I can't WAIT for the Vibe to come out! That looks like an incredible vehicle!!! An AWD wagon with a Celica GT-S engine and 6-speed manual? Yummy!!!!

kdudemgb

Hi, I got the free tent a few weeks ago. I set it up for the first time about a week ago. It took about 30 minutes (the instructions weren't all that great). Then this past weekend I set it up again and it took about 10-15 minutes. Very easy once I knew what I was doing. The trick is make sure you lay it out correctly and lay it up over the hatch and let it hang down. Then start attaching the fasteners.

Matt (owner of a steel blue metallic)

ab348

Here in Nova Scotia, GM has dumped a bunch of Azteks (mostly white ones from what I can see) on Avis, so it's not just Florida where they are flooding the rental fleets.

waymoresblues

Your comments hit home Doc...When I bought my Aztec last August, I was 30ish with wife & kid. That situation has since changed to 30ish and single....so It's now a "cool road-tripping car" for me. Going to Telluride in June, a trip I couldn't have taken a year ago when I was "married". Would I have bought the Aztec if I were single at the time?.probably not, I probably would have looked for an old muscle car...a 1970 Dodge Challenger with a Hemi 420 and a pistol grip shifter sounds good. Either way I've liked the Aztec from the start, regardless of my living situation, and enjoy driving it to this day.

dpd395

and loving it so far. It's a bright red GT with HUD, OnStar, camping package, leather, 6 CD Stereo, etc. Traded my 2000 Impala LS in on it. Amazingly enough, after trying out Dodge Grand Caravan, Hyundai Santa Fe, Mercury Villager, Chevy Venture, Ford Windstar, Nissan Xterra, Honda CRV, we kept coming back to the Aztek. I am 29, married, with one child, and my wife and I both love the thing, including the looks. We really like the looks we get from other people. We live in Central Illinois, and while we were doing the deal on ours, we saw numerous people at the dealership either test driving or crawling in and out of the other Azteks on the lot. This is a far cry from when we first started looking at the beginning of the year, when it seemed we were the ONLY people in our city interested in them. I think sales are going to pick up this spring/summer, especially when the redesign comes out. Anyway, call us warped, but we love our Aztek.

drzoom1

I think one item that would make the 'Tek more appealling to "bubble-buyers" would be a larger engine. But that would add to the price and further remove it from the young single crowd. Either way, I think it is cool to be thirtyish with kids and buying a car that I'd at least consider as a twentyish bachelor!

bty waymoresblues, glad to see you got the 'Tek!

lbthedog

It's great to be the subject of so much discussion. And all because of how a vehicle looks. Seems that the owners have a sense of humor. All the others I've met have no complaints. We seem to be having fun. Is that why the non owners are so grumpy? Don't they know how to have fun? Nothing better than going out for a ride with my kid on a Saturday, wearing my "Ghoul Power" T-shirt, and heading off to some new adventure. By the way, some of our favorite cruising music is Dean Martin, Johnny Cash, Ray Charles, we're having fun, how about you?

drzoom1

Thanks for the report...our salesguy said it took three salesguys about 20 minutes to put the tent up, not knowing what they were doing. We might dry-run our tent package this weekend.

drzoom1

...a blast. Bruce, Bob, Frank Allison, and Greg Kihn's Greatest hits are currently "hogging" our in-dash.

As my 30 month says....rock-n-roll dadooo!

drzoom1

Congrats, you'll love it!

zircon

I would love to tell him why the car has had difficulty with sales, but we've been thru all that, haven't we? The yellow looks the coolest of the bunch.

Matero - read the Edmunds review of the celica GT with 180HP and 6-speed. They were underimpressed, as was my friend who owns one. One the bright side, it will be the first car other than a corvette in GM's North American fleet with a six speed manual. I too look forward to at least giving it a drive. We'll see soon enough - December?

ultradr

you mean you actually got instructions? i didn't get any. the salesman at my dealership said my tent package was the only one they had given out.

happyjoyfree

Just test drove tonight and we are in love !!! Our decision is whether to get the front wheel or all wheel drive GT model. We are in St. Louis - weather can be rough a few days a year, and we are definitely not taking it off the road. I would love any opinions as the price is about $2500 more for all wheel. Also, is EVERYBODY leasing? Anybody buying?? thanks!!!

kissfan1

The one thing that continues to astound me about the AZTEK is the public reaction.

This evening at my daughters KARATE school I was malled by a group of 4 early 30 ish moms who begged.......yes begged me for a closer look. These women absolutely loved the vehicle.

I threw open all five doors.......Put on CD from the BLUE MAN GROUP. They crawled all over the vehicle. The things they were wild about:

1. Space
2. Sound System
3. Looks (So ugly ....it'a adorable was their quote)
4. Automatic everything (Lights go on ....lights go off.....Sound system shuts itself off)

Two out the group are going shoppoing for one this weekend. COOL!!!!

; ) ......wearing the AZTEK smile!!!!!!!

ultradr

bought our fwd gt. i live in no illinois, have heard the fwd with traction control is all that is needed
for the majority of winter driving conditions. if we get 12" of snow, i'm not going anywhere until the roads have cleared. the $2500 difference and slight decrease in gas mileage was a deterent for us too.

anyone actually get set up instructions for their tent?

robynr

I've never had any acceleration problems on my FWD GT. I push the pedal and it goes.
I think one thing some people might be worrying about in the early days of ownership is the
sound of the higher revs. North-Americans are used to a larger vehicle getting up to speed
without the "I'm REALLY revving!" sound.

I had a 4-cyl Chevy Nova for a while after a string of V-8's and it would drive me absolutely
insane for about 6 months when I hit the gas to accelerate to highway speed or pass. I did get
used to it.

If you put a bigger engine in the Aztek, the gas mileage would detract from it's practicality.

Just my 2.375 cents (inflation ya' know!)..

Robyn
SE Michigan Aztek GT

stevesw

I've had my red Aztek almost 3 weeks now and loving it. If you like to meet and talk with people, the Aztek provides that opportunity. I've been met with enthusiasm from people of all ages in parking lots, gas stations, in restaurants, and at stop lights. Hey Kissfan, I know you agree! This morning at a gas station an elderly couple were asking me about it - she said she really likes it. It's like you never know who you'll come across.

I'm one of those older Aztek owners (53) with grown kids (22, 25, 31), separated, and obviously loving the idea of having such a versatile vehicle. So I don't know if I fit the typical Aztek profile.

I'm consistently getting around 25 MPG - 70% highway and 30% cityish (not much stop and go), so I am very pleased. I'm finding the computerized MPG average is off, with it displaying a higher MPG.

I had a rattle under the hood, which turned out to be the insulation under the hood flapping, which has been ordered and to be replaced.

By the way, dpd395and ultradr, congratulations on your purchases!