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Since the early 1900's when mass produced autos, and when Alfred Sloan united Buick, Olds, Caddilac, etc. under one roof called GM by going to Wall St. to raise the money to make the mergers into a dominant force, (thereby forcing Ford to become publicly traded, Chrysler and Dodge and Plymouth to do likewise), auto makers have been "for profit." Frankly, for the amount of capital and effort they need to invest to make the profits they do, I can't blame them for being such bean counters.
US auto industry has always been deregulated (if you don't count the tri-opolistic behavior of the big 3), whereas in Europe and Japan, their industries have been protected by government policy. As a result, automakers in those countries and continents have been on some kind of mission. In Europe, it was ideology, culture and socialism that drove them. In Japan, it was nationalism and their culture if incessant refinement and striving for perfection.
This is not to say that the US doesn't have the cultural and artistic influences to produce high quality. It means that they have been much more driven by profits - to do otherwise could have meant their demise without assistance from the government.
You will notice that since the late 80's, Europe has largely deregulated their auto industries and BMW, Daimler-Benz, Porche-Audi-VW have had to become publicly traded companies as their respective governments have divested their ownership in the interest of fostering capitalism. The results are starting to show - Daimler-Chrysler is undergoing massive losses, BMW have had severe pressure from shareholders with respect to botched acquisitions of Land Rover, etc.
The Japanese car companies aren't immune to this as well. With the financial systems in Japan on the verge of collapse from bad loans made to cover previous bad loans, credit is not available to the Japanese goliaths like before. They are publicly traded, and have to answer to shareholders now. While the premium brands like Lexus, Acura, and Inifinity will probably be preserved in their "cachet of premium quality and cutting edge features", the bread and butter brands will come under pressure. The likes of Nissan (now owned by Renault), Mitsubishi, and Subaru are bleeding red ink. Mergers are likely.
The US car makers aren't incompentent. All design and engineering is done on computers and robotic equipment. No one countries computers or software is better than another's, software providers sell to any company in any country. The difference has been that the US companies have had to play be different rules - the rules of Wall St. And Wall St. is the most unforgiving of all.
A suckers car.
lbthedog: let's not take this personally, man. What I meant was that many of the vehicles that rate poorly in collision off-set testing etc. are 'domestics'. People do focus on safety today and that is the precise reason Ford markets it ad nausem for the Windstar ( a very safe vehicle) and Taurus. It seems, however, that many of the 'foreign' brands build safety in from the initial design, not as afterthoughts. The new civic is an example; same for all VWs.
Thx.
Rob
The manufacturers don't knowingly produce deathtraps, but the reality is that Manufacturer A does place a greater priority on safety than Manufacturer B, who might place a priority on creature comforts. This is how manufacturers differentiate themselves from each other.
- different companies use different programs - custom software is pretty common. Also - remember that a computer can draft an idea and simulate forces but it doesn't actually design the car, and it doesn't lay down the initial specifications. I sometimes think that'e where GM's problems lie. Everything is far too driven by the marketing people. The Aztek would be a prime example of this - I'll bet the initial sketches of the Aztek were really cool looking , and the concept behind the vehicle is great. Then cost cutting/platform sharing/pontiac look front end... etc kick in and the car comes out looking nothing like those original renderings. Slap some big wheels on an Aztek and handle the cladding a little better and you've got a better looking vehicle. Spend a little less of the budget on promoting the thing and more on tweaking the platform of existing minivan and you've got something that could sell itself. I think they were so close to a major hit with this concept but shot themselves in the foot pushing it through the wrong way. The upcoming Vibe looks like a surefire winner though - really nice styling, (hopefully) decent price point and to top it all off - the reliability of a Toyota. Just don't let the marketers design the thing from the price point backwards - start with the car first...
imo, safety and popularity are disjoints in today's auto market. "Popular" cars are NOT necessarily the "safest" cars out there. Sure, some consumers place safety as a premium on their car purchase, but not very many people do, I suspect. People are still taken in by the "looks" and "feel" of a car. Or, what their friends, neighbors, colleagues, etc... are driving, as an influence to what they buy and drive. Or, it could be lineage: my parents are Ford owners, so I prefer Fords... (not to mention, the discount one gets for being a "family" member).
Surveys are out showing the average household with computers. Cities like Seattle, San Diego, etc. rank high on these lists, but exactly how many of these computer-savvy households understand the power of on-line shopping for an auto - better deals, better choices, priceless information that dealers cannot give or ani't even familiar with, etc... I can bet that the # is far less than # of homes with PC's.
So what does all this tell ya ? Who cares if PT Cruiser looks ugly, it's a hit and lots more people love it than hate it, and DC is making a killing selling it. GM figured they could do same with the 'Tek, but somehow, the line between a 'hit' and a'dud' is so fine these days, it could come down to something as intangible as - mother luck !!! PT Cruiser has it, the 'Tek doesn't... and that, people, makes the difference.
akajoe: I appreciate more of your thoughts on this and other issues. Please keep them coming.
Good posts above re: saftey. I was thinking mainly of the highly publicized problems with Explorer versus its competitors, and Montana line versus Sienna and Odyssey.
More importantly I had the opportunity to rent and drive a PORSCHE BOXSTER......Awesome experience. Had the vehicle up to 150mph.......Just Spectacular!!
; ) .....wearing the Porsche smile and the AZTEK wink!!!
I just posted two new pics of our Yellow AWD Aztek in the Owners group.
Greg
If I was a GM marketing exec, I'd be doing some surveys ASAP.
A Subaru Forester owner living in the Vancouver area snapped this picture:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292743515
Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
The Azzztek picture (you had to flip through the album) was very amusing. Folks either like this thing or hate it.
Good luck,
Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
Welcome back Kissfan - the board was DEAD without you.
You know as well as I the AZTEK is refreshing and different. A trouble free vehicle delivering awesome value...........
Glad to be back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
....... wearing my AZTEK ; ) smile
Good luck!
I'm a civil engineer and the 'Tek is our third Pontiac in 9 years (one was purchased used).
The weather has been great the last week and we are planning a 3-day weekend to Traverse City with our 'Tek. We were planning on a hotel, but I think we are going to try the tent package. Anybody have any tent reviews?
When I was looking to buy mine, a local dealer got in 5 GM exec driven Azteks. They were all fully loaded, including heated leather seats. On Saturday morning the dealer put an ad in the local paper offering them at $399 down/$399 a month (remember this is Canada where the list price is high). By Monday afternoon all five were gone...I know because I missed out on getting one.
That tells me Pontiace missed the boat on pricing, not design.
Please give us a detailed review. Looking to see how easy it is to assemble, what kind of room inside, and how comfortable it is to sleep in.
Have a great weekend and fill us in when you get back.
So....if you are married w/wo kids and have purchased a 'Tek, would you have bought it as a single guy/girl?
I'm a civil engineer and the 'Tek is our third Pontiac in 9 years (one was purchased used).
The weather has been great the last week and we are planning a 3-day weekend to Traverse City with our 'Tek. We were planning on a hotel, but I think we are going to try the tent package. Anybody have any tent reviews?
Noticed on Dark Angel tonight that the Aztek is also bullet proof. Another great selling feature!
;-)
Personally, I can't WAIT for the Vibe to come out! That looks like an incredible vehicle!!! An AWD wagon with a Celica GT-S engine and 6-speed manual? Yummy!!!!
Matt (owner of a steel blue metallic)
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
bty waymoresblues, glad to see you got the 'Tek!
As my 30 month says....rock-n-roll dadooo!
Matero - read the Edmunds review of the celica GT with 180HP and 6-speed. They were underimpressed, as was my friend who owns one. One the bright side, it will be the first car other than a corvette in GM's North American fleet with a six speed manual. I too look forward to at least giving it a drive. We'll see soon enough - December?
This evening at my daughters KARATE school I was malled by a group of 4 early 30 ish moms who begged.......yes begged me for a closer look. These women absolutely loved the vehicle.
I threw open all five doors.......Put on CD from the BLUE MAN GROUP. They crawled all over the vehicle. The things they were wild about:
1. Space
2. Sound System
3. Looks (So ugly ....it'a adorable was their quote)
4. Automatic everything (Lights go on ....lights go off.....Sound system shuts itself off)
Two out the group are going shoppoing for one this weekend. COOL!!!!
; ) ......wearing the AZTEK smile!!!!!!!
for the majority of winter driving conditions. if we get 12" of snow, i'm not going anywhere until the roads have cleared. the $2500 difference and slight decrease in gas mileage was a deterent for us too.
anyone actually get set up instructions for their tent?
I think one thing some people might be worrying about in the early days of ownership is the
sound of the higher revs. North-Americans are used to a larger vehicle getting up to speed
without the "I'm REALLY revving!" sound.
I had a 4-cyl Chevy Nova for a while after a string of V-8's and it would drive me absolutely
insane for about 6 months when I hit the gas to accelerate to highway speed or pass. I did get
used to it.
If you put a bigger engine in the Aztek, the gas mileage would detract from it's practicality.
Just my 2.375 cents (inflation ya' know!)..
Robyn
SE Michigan Aztek GT
I'm one of those older Aztek owners (53) with grown kids (22, 25, 31), separated, and obviously loving the idea of having such a versatile vehicle. So I don't know if I fit the typical Aztek profile.
I'm consistently getting around 25 MPG - 70% highway and 30% cityish (not much stop and go), so I am very pleased. I'm finding the computerized MPG average is off, with it displaying a higher MPG.
I had a rattle under the hood, which turned out to be the insulation under the hood flapping, which has been ordered and to be replaced.
By the way, dpd395and ultradr, congratulations on your purchases!