Consumers need to grow up and stop being seduced with overpowered cars
Especially when the vast majority of them never USE that power . . . again, if they DID, I wouldn't be routinely passing up Corvettes and Porsches with my "underpowered" Freestyle and Five Hundred.
We just don't get it, I guess . . . . it's about PERCEPTION of HAVING power . . . not that we'll ever USE it.
Imagine a market where people actually bought what they needed as opposed to what they think they need, what the marketers have lead them to think they need, or what the jones' said they needed.
People are funny things. As I think I posted somewhere a long, long, time ago - where I live, plenty of soccer moms hammer their minivans/CUVs from stoplight to stoplight... I have no idea why. The sports-car drivers are smart enough to stay the heck out of the way and not bother with these mad cows flooring it for no reason - so it often looks like an Odyssey is smoking a 911/Vette/G35 etc. in a drag race.
Regardless of who mashes their "go pedal" harder on the boulevard, all I know is that I don't want to be behind you on a freeway onramp.
Someone came to this thread that was also considering a minivan, so I wasn't stirring the pot, I was merely responding to that query. A valid response, IMHO.
Guess I am the pot stirrer. Sorry if I offended anybody. However, all I am looking for is a 6+ seater vehicle with a high driving position, good visibility, easy access to all rows and Xenon headlights. I think both Buick Enclave and Toyota Sienna fits the bill, so I read both threads. The CX-9 (GT) is too noisy, and has other problems (my personal and subjective view). I don't really see much of a difference between the CUV and the minivan, except the sliding doors.
Your needs and mileage may vary. Happy shopping, - MS
I don't really see much of a difference between the CUV and the minivan, except the sliding doors.
Not much, but universal availability of AWD would be the big one for me. Having owned a minivan, nothing compares for ease of flow internally. If all minivans came with AWD options, I'm not sure I'd even bother looking at "Crossovers". Just as an aside, I really hate that term. I am quite secure with the knowledge I might be buying the Taurus Wagon. Well, not if I'm really honest, but what makes me hesitate is the Taurus part, not "wagon". Would you folks honestly ignore an AWD wagon to buy something called a crossover instead?
It seems that "wagon" has become a dirty word for some reason. All the car manufacturers are dancing around the fact that most SUVs, CUVs, minivans and others are just slightly different than a station wagon. Freestyle and Pacifica are station wagons without a doubt. The unibody SUVs? Somewhat taller version of a station wagon. The Lamdas, CXs, Vera Cruz and others are taller standing station wagons and minivans are being used just like old-style station wagons (bigger stretch than with the others). People just have a thing about a wagon.
My wife has always said that she would not ever drive a station wagon. Ever. This is why we did not even look at the Pacifica or the Subarus. I think this is also why she did not like the Freestyle. Me, personally, I don't care. I want a vehicle that best suits our needs. Period.
After we settled on the Outlook we were standing there looking at one and I said "You realize that this car is just a station wagon that sits a little higher off the ground." She shot me The Look that only wives are trained to give and threatened me with violence if I ever said that again. I said "Yes dear." and shut my mouth.
Nothing dirty about 'em around here... we like them so much we have two, the passat variant new since '98 with 142k as the commuter and our '05 FS, both great looking in basic black and able to haul around the family and trips to depot since buying our own "this old house". Personally I think the wagon versions of a lot of diferent models out there look much better as wagons than sedans...
I feel the same way about a mini though, irrational at best but it is what it is. Maybe I'm over compensating with 2 wagons to make up for the lack of a mini in my life... LOL
You must have some pretty piss-poor Corvette/Porsche drivers where you live...
Agree with the other poster (carlitos?) - Just because you're flogging your FS/500 (can they even be flogged???), doesn't mean the Corvette/Porsche drivers can't; they're just not trying.
Your continuous statements that you are always blowing by Corvettes/Porsches is pretty obnoxious. If you're so entranced by the power and performance of your duo, you should take it/them to a track day or autocross and see how you stack up against the Corvettes/Porsches in that environment.
I'm already working on hiding my nitrous bottle in the child car seat, converting to rwd, dropping in a ford 9in rearend, tubbing it and twin turboing the 3.0 so I can just waste those other CUV's out there as well as the porsche and vette that might not have the proper amount of fear set in them upon the ominous black FS rolling up next to it...
Sleeper from the outside, all track star on the inside... show a little respect... word.
Check out the rest of Thom's CD's on CDBaby.com while you're at it. He's a great singer/songwriter, and has written a couple of #1 hits! (And, best of all, he's a personal friend of mine. )
I'm already working on hiding my nitrous bottle in the child car seat, converting to rwd, dropping in a ford 9in rearend, tubbing it and twin turboing the 3.0 so I can just waste those other CUV's out there as well as the porsche and vette that might not have the proper amount of fear set in them upon the ominous black FS rolling up next to it...
But you don't need to do all that. Just put your foot a little harder on the gas, and blow by all those idiots who bought their overpowered vehicles.
I'm not missing the point at all. You seem to think that your driving ability overcomes any perceived shortcomings with the power/drivetrain of your vehicle, while most, if not all, others, are so inept that they are utterly incapable of finding the gas pedal, let alone using it.
Just because the Vettes/Porsches aren't racing you stoplight to stoplight does not mean they don't know how to use the power they have. Why would they? It's always impressive when a Vette driver brags to his buddies that he 'completely dusted a Freestyle - high fives!'.
Just because the Vettes/Porsches aren't racing you stoplight to stoplight does not mean they don't know how to use the power they have.
Assuming facts not in evidence. :P
The fact is, these bozos slow down to "rubber neck" accidents (which is bad enough), but then they won't GET OUT OF THE WAY once they clear the area.
And it's not restricted to Corvettes and Porsches . . I can understand those who have underpowered cars not being able to speed on their way . . but those who have the power, who SHOULD be using it, simply are NOT using it. So, it's essentially worthless.
see you on PINKS... any of you lambda owners want to see the full power and fury of the FS unleashed...
PINKS - CUV EDITION - sponsored by edmunds
It's the grudge match special, time for the CUV crowd to back up their bytes in an all out affair, heads up or nothing he says as he hits the nitrous button cleverly concealed as the "mute" button on the steering wheel.
alright, maybe no nitrous but I've got all the ebay speed part specials, 25hp module, chrome mirror covers, chrome exhaust tips, mileage maxx vortex generator, street fury 36hp chip, precut tint, milkspeed cold air intake(dryer vent edition) and my super secret weapon... the intercooler tube kit that, that, I'm not sure what it does but it was $89+shipping and must do something to make it faster...
top that...word deux
see you there if you're, hmmmm, tapping foot, looks to sky, if you've got nothing better to do....yeah, see you there if you've got nothing better to do...
And it's not restricted to Corvettes and Porsches . . I can understand those who have underpowered cars not being able to speed on their way . . but those who have the power, who SHOULD be using it, simply are NOT using it. So, it's essentially worthless.
Being the driver of an '06 Mustang GT I can honestly say that I do not waste my time or gas on racing all the folks in minivans, SUVs and mid-sized sedans that want to race me all the time. It's boring and there's no adrenaline rush to be had doing it.
I am at least 2-2.5 seconds faster to 60 than the fastest minivan so why bother? Do I really need to race these things all the time? Do the drivers of them not know how much slower they are?
I all honesty, when was the last time you heard someone say:
"I really like my new ____, but I wish it had less power..."
My favorite quote on the subject is:
"A lot of HP is good... More HP is better... Too much HP is just right..."
If you have to ask why, you will never get it....
You can chose to go through life and be practical or you can try to have a little fun along the way. That is why they opffer cars with different engine choices. The only grip I have with this type of discussion is selfrighteous people who seem to think that they have the right to tell me how much Hp I can have...
The only grip I have with this type of discussion is selfrighteous people who seem to think that they have the right to tell me how much Hp I can have...
You can have all you want . . . just be sure to USE it instead of becoming a rolling road block.
Oh, and don't complain about high gasoline prices, either. :P
Perhaps as a segueway, we should post the 0-60 times of all the applicable CUVs... or the 0-55 mph time in the case of the FS, since it can't get to 60. :P
Hee hee, good point. There have been times where I didn't ask for more, but never have I wished for less.
Besides, when you're not using the extra power, good gearing can allow a powerful engine to loaf along at very low rpm (1200 or so on my van). That's how I managed nearly 28 mpg on my trip this weekend (photo below for fun), this around the DC beltway's traffic, too.
So you can have your cake and eat it. More power and space, and with the right gearing, fuel economy too.
I believe I read the Chevy Lambda will be a 2009 model. It will be built at the old Saturn plant in Spring Hill, TN (the other 3 lambdas are built at Lansing Delta Township, MI). The picture you saw (assuming it was the same one I saw) looked like a bad photo shop job slapping a Chevy bow-tie on a Saturn Outlook. The Chevy crossover will probably look nothing like it.
I know all you three-row guys won't like this, but sure would be nice if they had one two-row, ~188" Lambda version. With 4 to pick from, wouldn't hurt to make one a two-row. It would compete head-on with Edge, and, from what I see, would win that battle.
I put most of the same stuff on my Freestyle but I suggest you include a high speed radiator cap and racing floormats before you show up for pinks. These made my FS almost too hot to handle.
They just crammed a new 4.0l in the Pacifica, but it's a bit overdue for a full redesign
I dunno if it is overdue for a total redesign, but, it definitely needs a fresh up. It's only been out since MY2004, summer of 2003 release. Maybe a total redesign by 2009 is in order.
With 3 kids and two strollers to carry around, we are cross-chopping for a Honda minivan and both the CX-9 and the Outlook (wife thought the Buick Enclave exterior design to be overwrought.)
What a disappointment with the interior space of the Mazda. At almost the same length (take an inch or two,) it has considerably less interior space:
A trunk that is less than 15 inches deep. We couldn't even fit one of the strollers in there.
The limited console space, economy-car sized.
You have to choose **between** a moonroof or the rear-DVD because the interior space won't allow both to be fitted to the ceiling. People cross-shopping for a minivan will need the DVD and shell out 30-40K on a vehicle that doesn't have a moonroof :confuse:
We were much better impressed with the Outlook and its *dual* sunroofs surrounding the rearDVD. Trying to swallow a Saturn badge after all the years of forgettable cars is hard, but their current lineup (pending the Ion/Astra swap) puts many other dealer lots to shame.
An Odissey still seems the better option though. The third-row has 10 extra inches of legroom and the trunk is twice as big as in the Outlook.
For some reason, driving a Honda minivan doesn't seem as embarrassing as the CUV market people would want us to believe. The EX-L model with the cylinder deactivation will readily beat the Outlook mpg (18mpg city with 4700lb? Yeah right.)
One oddity in the Mazda is that you can't have both moonroof and the rear entertainment console at the same time: they occupy the same spot under the ceiling.
to have a DVD player can simply get headrest screens. Pretty simple really. Personally, I find the need for a DVD player only on long trips and really prefer to use a two-screen portable. Cheaper and by doing it that way, my children have learned to actually can make it home from schools without thinking they should watch a movie. What a novel idea!
Making it home from school is easy, the DVD player pays off on longer trips. The longer the trip, the more worthwhile it is.
We have a 3 hour drive to our beach condo and it's perfect - just long enough to watch one complete movie. We start it a little after we've left, and it's done by the time we get close.
12" DVD screen: $900 Installation: included No more "are we there yets": priceless.
I would agree that nobody actually *needs* a moonroof, but that is rationalizing an engineering flaw. Mazda couldn't fit both a 10" monitor and a moonroof on the ceiling of a car that is nearly 200" long!! It is just a compromise that its key competitors don't have to make.
One of the propositions on 3-row CUVs is to offer an alternative to minivans, such as Mazda's outgoing MPV. Any minivan at the same price-point will offer both a moonroof and a rear-DVD system. Some competitors, such as the lambda-based from GM will offer two moonroofs.
Dual-monitors strapped to the head-rests are a good alternative (we have it on a 2004 Nissan Murano) but there is really no comparison to a built-in system; there are three wires running tucked in crevices behind the seats, one of them a power cord snaking into the center storage bin after the power outlet, etc.
I could live without the moonroof (even on car costing north of 35K in GT guise,) but the smallish trunk was the deal breaker. I couldn't fit a twin-stroller that fits in the trunk of my Accord Coupe :confuse:
Comments
If they really wanted that, then I wouldn't be blowing their doors off with my underpowered Freestyle, now would I? :P
Especially when the vast majority of them never USE that power . . . again, if they DID, I wouldn't be routinely passing up Corvettes and Porsches with my "underpowered" Freestyle and Five Hundred.
We just don't get it, I guess . . . . it's about PERCEPTION of HAVING power . . . not that we'll ever USE it.
But that would cause world recession! :P
Regardless of who mashes their "go pedal" harder on the boulevard, all I know is that I don't want to be behind you on a freeway onramp.
Guess I am the pot stirrer. Sorry if I offended anybody. However, all I am looking for is a 6+ seater vehicle with a high driving position, good visibility, easy access to all rows and Xenon headlights. I think both Buick Enclave and Toyota Sienna fits the bill, so I read both threads. The CX-9 (GT) is too noisy, and has other problems (my personal and subjective view). I don't really see much of a difference between the CUV and the minivan, except the sliding doors.
Your needs and mileage may vary. Happy shopping, - MS
No one suggested you were one!
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Not much, but universal availability of AWD would be the big one for me. Having owned a minivan, nothing compares for ease of flow internally. If all minivans came with AWD options, I'm not sure I'd even bother looking at "Crossovers". Just as an aside, I really hate that term. I am quite secure with the knowledge I might be buying the Taurus Wagon. Well, not if I'm really honest, but what makes me hesitate is the Taurus part, not "wagon". Would you folks honestly ignore an AWD wagon to buy something called a crossover instead?
My wife has always said that she would not ever drive a station wagon. Ever. This is why we did not even look at the Pacifica or the Subarus. I think this is also why she did not like the Freestyle. Me, personally, I don't care. I want a vehicle that best suits our needs. Period.
After we settled on the Outlook we were standing there looking at one and I said "You realize that this car is just a station wagon that sits a little higher off the ground." She shot me The Look that only wives are trained to give and threatened me with violence if I ever said that again. I said "Yes dear." and shut my mouth.
I feel the same way about a mini though, irrational at best but it is what it is. Maybe I'm over compensating with 2 wagons to make up for the lack of a mini in my life... LOL
Agree with the other poster (carlitos?) - Just because you're flogging your FS/500 (can they even be flogged???), doesn't mean the Corvette/Porsche drivers can't; they're just not trying.
Your continuous statements that you are always blowing by Corvettes/Porsches is pretty obnoxious. If you're so entranced by the power and performance of your duo, you should take it/them to a track day or autocross and see how you stack up against the Corvettes/Porsches in that environment.
Mark
I'm already working on hiding my nitrous bottle in the child car seat, converting to rwd, dropping in a ford 9in rearend, tubbing it and twin turboing the 3.0 so I can just waste those other CUV's out there as well as the porsche and vette that might not have the proper amount of fear set in them upon the ominous black FS rolling up next to it...
Sleeper from the outside, all track star on the inside... show a little respect... word.
Probably true, because I'm usually behind some bonehead in an overpowered vehicle who doesn't now how to accelerate. :P
For those who love wagons, check out this song:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/thomshepherd
Track #2 (Country Squire)
Check out the rest of Thom's CD's on CDBaby.com while you're at it. He's a great singer/songwriter, and has written a couple of #1 hits! (And, best of all, he's a personal friend of mine.
Yes, it is, but only because it's TRUE.
They should learn to DRIVE those danged things and GET OUT OF MY WAY!
You're missing the point . . . is this intentional?
But you don't need to do all that. Just put your foot a little harder on the gas, and blow by all those idiots who bought their overpowered vehicles.
Just because the Vettes/Porsches aren't racing you stoplight to stoplight does not mean they don't know how to use the power they have. Why would they? It's always impressive when a Vette driver brags to his buddies that he 'completely dusted a Freestyle - high fives!'.
Mark
Assuming facts not in evidence. :P
The fact is, these bozos slow down to "rubber neck" accidents (which is bad enough), but then they won't GET OUT OF THE WAY once they clear the area.
And it's not restricted to Corvettes and Porsches . . I can understand those who have underpowered cars not being able to speed on their way . . but those who have the power, who SHOULD be using it, simply are NOT using it. So, it's essentially worthless.
PINKS - CUV EDITION - sponsored by edmunds
It's the grudge match special, time for the CUV crowd to back up their bytes in an all out affair, heads up or nothing he says as he hits the nitrous button cleverly concealed as the "mute" button on the steering wheel.
alright, maybe no nitrous but I've got all the ebay speed part specials, 25hp module, chrome mirror covers, chrome exhaust tips, mileage maxx vortex generator, street fury 36hp chip, precut tint, milkspeed cold air intake(dryer vent edition) and my super secret weapon... the intercooler tube kit that, that, I'm not sure what it does but it was $89+shipping and must do something to make it faster...
top that...word deux
see you there if you're, hmmmm, tapping foot, looks to sky, if you've got nothing better to do....yeah, see you there if you've got nothing better to do...
Being the driver of an '06 Mustang GT I can honestly say that I do not waste my time or gas on racing all the folks in minivans, SUVs and mid-sized sedans that want to race me all the time. It's boring and there's no adrenaline rush to be had doing it.
I am at least 2-2.5 seconds faster to 60 than the fastest minivan so why bother? Do I really need to race these things all the time? Do the drivers of them not know how much slower they are?
I'm not asking you to race me . . I'm asking you to USE that power and get OUT of the way when you should be accelerating.
(Well, I don't know if it's YOU . . . but there's plenty of them out there)
"I really like my new ____, but I wish it had less power..."
My favorite quote on the subject is:
"A lot of HP is good... More HP is better... Too much HP is just right..."
If you have to ask why, you will never get it....
You can chose to go through life and be practical or you can try to have a little fun along the way. That is why they opffer cars with different engine choices. The only grip I have with this type of discussion is selfrighteous people who seem to think that they have the right to tell me how much Hp I can have...
You can have all you want . . . just be sure to USE it instead of becoming a rolling road block.
Oh, and don't complain about high gasoline prices, either. :P
I see. I don't like to follow which is one of the reasons I drive a fast car so you'll never have to worry about me holding you up on the road.
Just don't expect me to accept your "challenge" at a stoplight.
Perhaps as a segueway, we should post the 0-60 times of all the applicable CUVs... or the 0-55 mph time in the case of the FS, since it can't get to 60. :P
Besides, when you're not using the extra power, good gearing can allow a powerful engine to loaf along at very low rpm (1200 or so on my van). That's how I managed nearly 28 mpg on my trip this weekend (photo below for fun), this around the DC beltway's traffic, too.
So you can have your cake and eat it. More power and space, and with the right gearing, fuel economy too.
is chevy lambdas really going to come out? Just saw an old picture in a magazine from last year.
Where is Chrysler's new crossover? expected to see it by now. better look awesome, and in no way shape or form like the new sebring!
I put most of the same stuff on my Freestyle but I suggest you include a high speed radiator cap and racing floormats before you show up for pinks. These made my FS almost too hot to handle.
Also, the Suzuki XL7 sort of slots between the two. They pretty much have each size slot covered.
I dunno if it is overdue for a total redesign, but, it definitely needs a fresh up. It's only been out since MY2004, summer of 2003 release. Maybe a total redesign by 2009 is in order.
What a disappointment with the interior space of the Mazda. At almost the same length (take an inch or two,) it has considerably less interior space:
- A trunk that is less than 15 inches deep. We couldn't even fit one of the strollers in there.
- The limited console space, economy-car sized.
- You have to choose **between** a moonroof or the rear-DVD because the interior space won't allow both to be fitted to the ceiling. People cross-shopping for a minivan will need the DVD and shell out 30-40K on a vehicle that doesn't have a moonroof :confuse:
We were much better impressed with the Outlook and its *dual* sunroofs surrounding the rearDVD. Trying to swallow a Saturn badge after all the years of forgettable cars is hard, but their current lineup (pending the Ion/Astra swap) puts many other dealer lots to shame.An Odissey still seems the better option though. The third-row has 10 extra inches of legroom and the trunk is twice as big as in the Outlook.
For some reason, driving a Honda minivan doesn't seem as embarrassing as the CUV market people would want us to believe. The EX-L model with the cylinder deactivation will readily beat the Outlook mpg (18mpg city with 4700lb? Yeah right.)
We have a 3 hour drive to our beach condo and it's perfect - just long enough to watch one complete movie. We start it a little after we've left, and it's done by the time we get close.
12" DVD screen: $900
Installation: included
No more "are we there yets": priceless.
:shades:
One of the propositions on 3-row CUVs is to offer an alternative to minivans, such as Mazda's outgoing MPV. Any minivan at the same price-point will offer both a moonroof and a rear-DVD system. Some competitors, such as the lambda-based from GM will offer two moonroofs.
Dual-monitors strapped to the head-rests are a good alternative (we have it on a 2004 Nissan Murano) but there is really no comparison to a built-in system; there are three wires running tucked in crevices behind the seats, one of them a power cord snaking into the center storage bin after the power outlet, etc.
I could live without the moonroof (even on car costing north of 35K in GT guise,) but the smallish trunk was the deal breaker. I couldn't fit a twin-stroller that fits in the trunk of my Accord Coupe :confuse: