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Comments
So, i presume we won't hear about GM's own Cadillac CTS being Car of the Year, then, huh? GM is surely above that, and wouldn't stoop so low as to advertise that. :sick: Vad, you're setting a double standard here, and GM is going to be no better than Mazda. You win an award, you advertise it. Why wouldn't you want more people to see that a magazine that does nothing but tests vehicles compared a vehicle you build with all other new SUVs, and found that yours was best based on several criteria? It's good press, everybody wants it, Mazda got it.
Yes, you're might be right, but then those people translated in their head how that actually relates to how they would be utilizing the same type of car.
Also, I personaly don't think that the magazine criteria matches up with 90% of the people that are out there purchasing this class of vehicles. That's why sales so low for the Best CUV of the Year.
Then I guess GMs Cadillac CTS will be a flop, too, since not many Caddy owners take their cars to a test track.
Do I think the award will change 99% of minds who are undecided about which to purchase? Of course not. But I do honestly think your tune would be along the lines of "the Acadia is the best CUV and now this magazine article and award proves it." You've given me no reason to think otherwise ever since you first said you can't compare the Acadia and the CX-9.
Anyway, this is an award, and it doesn't have a lot to do with the actual vehicle itself. It just puts a jewel in Mazda's crown that none of its competitors have garnered.
Also, those higher GM sales couldn't have to do with the MASSIVE number of GM dealers compared to Mazda; not at all, right? Shoot, I have two dealers within 10 minutes of my house for GM, but the nearest Mazda dealer is across town, about 35 minutes away. In fact, I have a 2nd or 3rd cousin who co-owns a Pontiac/GMC dealer in town! (Courtesy Pontiac, in Trussville, AL) I live in a suburb of a million-person metro area, so it's not like I'm in the boonies.
"Also, I personaly don't think that the magazine criteria matches up with 90% of the people that are out there purchasing this class of vehicles. That's why sales so low for the Best CUV of the Year."
2 words to this,
PROVE IT...
Vad you've done nothing but offer opinion regarding this matter, what's the point already. Like most have said here already, glad you enjoy your ride but there are as many points against yours as there are reasons to buy one. You can go down the list and make the same type of list for all of them. At that point it comes down to personal opinion, buy what you like, take your chances, and move on...
If you truly believe sales numbers define the best in any given case then what's the point in having the capacity for free thought.
Not really, that's only the V6 model. Both the 4 cylinder and the Camry Hybrid are still recommended.
Those two powertrains make up the majority of Camry sales, FWIW.
To bring this back on topic - they did say they would take a "wait and see" approach for new Toyotas, so their new crossover (2008 Highlander) is not yet recommended, I believe.
Edit: actually in their 2008 Buying Guide they still list reliability for the Highlander as "Much Better than Average", so maybe it was a different model?
Also, you don't have to be the biggest to be the best, sometimes it better to be the smaller company.
I'm also thinking that there are Acadias going into fleet sales (I see them at many rental places), vs. the Mazda which likely has much lower fleet sales, if any.
If Vad could provide fleet sale numbers, that would be useful, too.
Is there a point to this statement?
About vehicle popularity, I know this doesn't say much, but almost as soon as the CX-9 arrived on the scene, I saw the sale price. A week or two later I saw it discounted. If what the papers advertise is true, I can get a base model for 24500. And that's the usual. I've seen one advertised loaded (Touring) for 29900. The first time I saw the Acadia in the paper was 4 or 5 weeks ago for one dealership in mid November. And it was an SLE at MSRP! Also-and I love this part- in bold letters at the top corner of the page of most GMC advertisement sections is "We have 6 Acadias!" Or "Acadias arriving soon!"
Really all I can say right now is Go GM! This is a hot seller.
Nope. I was being a dumb-[non-permissible content removed], actually, to keep in line with Vad's posts.
But to actually make a point, since Mazda does sell less vehicles as a whole, it makes complete sense that the CX-9 should sell less than the Acadia, since there are so many more GM followers.
By the way, people were getting discounted Acadias within a couple of weeks after introduction. You can check the acadiaforum.net site, I was thinking of buying one when they came out but wisely waited (i.e. tons of issues with the 2007s)
So, you pretty much admitted that you will buy 08' or 09' Acadia. Good. Keep American economy grow.
By the way I'm not GM follower. It's my first GM product. I'm trying to by domestic brand ,if it's a good option. I tell you true, I try stay away from Japanese, Korean car product. It's not my ignore, so I'm buying a financially make sense and fit my needs, either electronics or cars.
Thinking about it, I don't remember Mazda ever having high praise for quality. So when you picked the CX-9 over the Acadia, it was more because anything would be better than a GM.
That's the biggest load of bull I've heard since I left the farm (actually I never lived on a farm).
Sales numbers don't determine the best? What's the Camry?! The Honda CRV? All best sellers, and if you haveridden in either, you know the two aren't duds. I'm not trying to be a biased Asian motor supporter, but these are two examples of cars the competition hasn't yet surpassed. I could make a strong case fot the Malibu being a better car, but it won't be a best seller yet, because there are too many GM skeptics out there.
I second that motion!
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
C'mon... just because something sells the most does not mean it is the best in all cases... so you are going to tell me that the lambda triplets are the "best" out there
simply because they have sold the most.
Please... I don't agree with that and I think most don't either. If we did there would not be so many people disagreeing with Vad and we'd all be driving lambda's.
BTW we aren't talking about ravs and camry's so why bother introducing them into the discussion. those are 2 vehicles I would not consider regardless of sales number's if I was in the market for either type simply because I don't have to if I don't want to. but to believe they are somehow the best because they sell the most is silly.
Sorry, I have started. It's just negative influence of the Motor Trend . I have read for first time about this review, it's funny, at Mazda dealership. They have a stand parked near CX-9. But because I drove Acadia 2-6 month prior come to Mazda dealership, I got kind interesting and I returned to GM for test drive again. After compared both vehicles , I got my personal review. You're all right, Acadia quite ride (I like it) but has some discrepancies,but CX-9 sporty driving (close to it), but more noise inside and stiff ride .
Peace, everyone!!!!
LOL...
they call it progress, I'm not so sure some days...
I've learned from the master, ha ha.
I've seen too many GM/Acadia apologists on forums lately, spewing out half truths, in this particular case the poster has exagerated many times when it comes to mpg and reliability of the Acadia (and I know the poster posts on Acadiaforums.net, so he must know the real numbers). Sure, go GMC!, but don't pretend the product doesn't have dozens of TSBs out.
Edmund forums can strongly influence decision-making information, and sorry to say, but sometimes you have to call shenanigans on certain people! (what movie is that from, can't recall...)
"...When Mazda says that there's the soul of a sports car built into the CX-9, what they mean is that the driver isn't demoted to charffeur. The development team taught the CX-9 proper road etiquette..."
"...The effort invested in the CX-9's driving dynamics paid off. Hard to please Automobile Magazine critics have been moved to paroxysms of joy when discussing the CX-9. One called the V6 engine charming, the six speed automatic transmission silky. Another praised the way the powertrain hustles the 4620 pound curb weight. But the ultimate kudos came from the editor who rated the steering feedback and feel superior to that of BMW's new M3..."
Check it out: http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/dc2007/10.shtml
if I was in the market for a sedan - maybe, but I'm not, so I did not look at either.
Thinking about it, I don't remember Mazda ever having high praise for quality. So when you picked the CX-9 over the Acadia, it was more because anything would be better than a GM.
The bad recommendation on the CX-9 from CR did scare me, but the postings from actual Acadia owners on the forums scared me more. Having not owned a GM and been happy with foreign makes, the Acadia did have an uphill battle. I would have chosen the Acadia over the Highlander.
I never said the the lambdas were the best selling CUV in their class (though I bet they are). I think the sales numbers determine the best vehicle out there because, while no one vehicle fits all, the one that fits the needs of most is the one that is the most successful, therefore getting the best sales. We could never determine which of these CUVs is best, because each one fits our needs differentlyand each of us has a certain vehicle that tends to our needs- even the slow selling Freestyle/Taurus X. But the true measure of success in this market usn't who's is the best, but who's sells the most.
The Camry and CR-V were simply examples of this. Otherwise 40,000+ people wouldn't be taking them home (Camrys-I don't know the Honda's #'s).
http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/112_0712_2009_kia_borrego_first- _look
Who is next? Daewoo?
and Daewoo isn't in the US anymore.
"the ultimate kudos came from the editor who rated the steering feedback and feel superior to that of BMW's new M3..."
It's cool comparing. M3? why not M5 or Porsche?
By the way, that article MT is comparing CX-9 with Enclave, Veracruz and Tribeca, not with Acadia.
I think the writer/tester of the article equaled CX-9 to luxury cars. I'm not sure why.
One guy rated, Ron Kiino. What kind creditability to that magazine after that?
Here link to it http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/suv/112_0712_2008_mazda_cx_9/
The article I referenced had nothing to do with Motor Trend, or comparing to other Crossovers. Your limited credibility continues to dwindle with posts like that one, when you have NO CLUE what you are trying to talk about, and putting words in other people's mouths is rude, and lacks class.
Automobile = Car Magazine
All-Stars -> On the Cover. They do an "Automobile All-Stars" just like a Car and Driver 10 Best.
Since you are obviously not my English teacher, I didn't feel like you needed a copyright date and publisher. Geez. :sick:
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
I guess you don't have a great memory. Mazda has always had a reputation for quality / reliability / dependability. Some models more then others, as in every brand. Also, Mazda's are now being made with more quility then before, because the competition warrants it. Why do you think GM finally started to place a bit of emphasis on quality?
Oh please....I guess Honda / Toyota paid $$ to CR and every other magazine that says their reliability / value are top knotch. Or maybe they just have the best reputation because they proved they build valuable / reliable vehicles. Something GM has yet to do. Yes, they have improved. No doubt about that.
The Ford Edge seems to get some high praise from reliability sources as well. It seems Ford is doing something right, and they are starting to prove it.
There is nothing I would like more then to buy American. When I feel I won't get burned, I will buy.
my guess is that it had nothing to do with mazda, it had everything to do with figuring out what it takes to compete more effectively if it didn't want to continue to lose market share to toyota(who is now having it's own quality issues BTW)
As for albook;
"I think the sales numbers determine the best vehicle out there because, while no one vehicle fits all, the one that fits the needs of most is the one that is the most successful, therefore getting the best sales"
that just proves they could put a package that appeals to the most people and while an accomplishment to the bean counter's/stockholder's at the company in question, I'd argue no real measure of something that might be "best" in class
"We could never determine which of these CUVs is best, because each one fits our needs differently"
Correct but given some criteria other than "sells the most" while a quantifiable statistic it really does not measure the effectiveness of a product's ability to perform it's task.
The taurus was a huge seller for ford and lead the sales charts for a number of years, was it the best mid sized sedan out there and available at the time... ummmmm... are you driving one, I'm not, but was it best...NO.
sales numbers simply reflect who built the most popular and socially accepted box/wheels for any given segment, plain and simple.
determining what may be the best vehicle in a segment with some defined criteria(performance can be quantifiable, styling not so much) can lead you to a result of something other than the "sales leader".
So in the end to define best in class simply by sales number's I think is foolish and simple minded.
BTW - "But the true measure of success in this market usn't who's is the best, but who's sells the most. "
That's the easy way out Albook...
I did not mean it to come across like that. Of course GM didn't just look at Mazda and say "we need to build better vehicles". GM is getting better because they need to, to stay competitive. All manufacturers are trying to improve their product, because competition improves the breed.
Back to the drawing board.
Lutz/GM can now launch the 12 planned clones of the Pontiac G8.
That's a joke for people with no sense of humor.
So top sellers are the best vehicle:
so a 2000 Focus is better than a 2000 Corolla?
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/top10/45758/article.html
If something sell the most it doesn't mean it's the best, but the most popular. It could be the best, but not strictly because of sales figures. And that goes with everything sold out there, not just cars.
So top sellers are the best vehicle:
so a 2000 Focus is better than a 2000 Corolla?
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/top10/45758/article.html
If something sell the most it doesn't mean it's the best, but the most popular. It could be the best, but not strictly because of sales figures. And that goes with everything sold out there, not just cars.
I'd say a better indicator are the cars that sell without the need for incentives.
Which is my point exactly. There is no best vehicle out there. But the one that sell the most is the most successful.
Correct but given some criteria other than "sells the most" while a quantifiable statistic it really does not measure the effectiveness of a product's ability to perform it's task.
Yes- it does. If 40,000 people a month are buying Camrys, while 6000 a month buy Galants. then the Camry is a more effective vehicle in the class. Since the two are both in the same category of midsize sedans, consumers want the vehicle that is most "effective" in its class, and fits their criteria the most.
The taurus was a huge seller for ford and lead the sales charts for a number of years, was it the best mid sized sedan out there and available at the time... ummmmm... are you driving one, I'm not, but was it best...NO.
Is there a point to this statement? When the Taurus was the best out there it was the no. 1 seller. When it debuted, nothing in the class was like it. For years its design was copied- ad they say do as the best do. When Ford screwed it up, it dropped down the line- to the point of temporary extinction (that's an oximoron).
So in the end to define best in class simply by sales number's I think is foolish and simple minded.
You say it can't be done by sales yet you say it can't be done any other way. This is the most effective way. The manufacturer's goal isn't to have the perfect car, but to have a vehicle that gets maximum sales. Because not everyone wants the same car. Some prefer performance to energy efficience (and I know you condemn these people).
That's the easy way out Albook...
No- that's the profitable way. But it's not necessarily easy. Other wise Ford wouldn't be in trouble.
I like it when Road & Track has 2 lists of rankings, one price-dependent, and one cost-no object.
Your own cost-no-object pick is the Best for you.
Your price-dependent pick is the one you buy, at least for those of us with finite bank accounts. The one picked most often is the Best Selling.
They may or may not be different vehicles.
That is what we should be debating.
I must- because the only Mazda I recall CR calling reliable is the 3. I think it's the same story for JD.
Others may be hit or miss, but the Miata is always up there.
Sorry Albook, that was MY point. You now seem to be back peddling from your initial inference which even contradicts itself in one sentance;
"I think the sales numbers determine the best vehicle out there because, while no one vehicle fits all, the one that fits the needs of most is the one that is the most successful, therefore getting the best sales"
in your earlier post.
"Yes- it does. If 40,000 people a month are buying Camrys, while 6000 a month buy Galants. then the Camry is a more effective vehicle in the class. Since the two are both in the same category of midsize sedans, consumers want the vehicle that is most "effective" in its class, and fits their criteria the most."
now you have moved your goalposts by eprlacing the word "best" with "more effective". The only thing it is quantifiably effective at is being a better seller than the galant. That in NO WAY infers that it is quantifiably a better vehicle or best. To equate sales number to quality or effectiveness of a automobile to do it's intended task I contend continues to be a foolish and inaccurate thesis.
"You say it can't be done by sales yet you say it can't be done any other way"
I said no such thing, I said there are other quantifiable measures that can be used for attempting to determine a "best" in class, I inferred performance as one, efficiency, value, interior space, cargo space, these are all number that can be compared to come to some relateable conclusion. Where you place your priorities as far as what "best" is most important is up to each buyer when considering each option available in a segment.
" Some prefer performance to energy efficience (and I know you condemn these people). "
I'd prefer you not come to some conclusion about what my priorities are as I don't about you. You have only a very limited knowledge of what I value in my transportation in a specific segment of the market. My guess is I'd surprise you with my overall thoughts and priorities.
You continue to avoid the basis of your initial thoughts. You contend most sales = best vehicle. I say that is patently incorrect and foolish. You offer manufacturer profits, manufaturer's NOT making the perfect car but max sales as indicators of something that embodies the "best" virtues of a given segment. I offer you are just plain wrong as all that you present to support your point have NO BEARING on a product's ability to do it's job in a manner that allows it to be considered "best".
Get this through your head, "best" and "sells the most" can and often are two different things.
I guess you don't. CR recommends the Mazda3, Mazda5, Mazda6, MX-5 Miata, while the Tribute has shown a reliability rating over average, it is not recommended because it's been redesigned.
Also, Warranty Direct rated Mazda the most reliable brand, just above Honda.
Really, we can go back and forth all day about what survey said this and that. At the end of the day, taking an average off all seems to be the best bet. Also reading owner reports in forums do help. Overall, Mazda does not have many issues compared to those by GM, especially the CX-9. Really, no owners have reported anything of significance to deem the CX-9 unreliable, where as the Lambda's have shown numerous complaints about the same things. For 2008, it seems a lot of these issues have been addressed.
Why are people buying more one brand then another or one model to another?
Well lets back to our example Acadia and CX-9.
Acadia was out sell CX-9 by demand, people is looking alternative for vans and it's best alternative for today. I can agree a shape and driving abilities of CX-9 can be better than Acadia, but consumer looked at the size.
Another example: Probably everyone will agree MDX or RX better CUV's, but sales is not a huge. Why? Price!! It's too pricey for the family car.(+insurance, + maintenance).
One more ex: In the Canada Saturn VUE out sell Acadia. Probably, VUE is more greener CUV.? I'm not sure. It has show demand, what people need.
In US GM is a winner for CUV's. Will see what happened next year.
It has show demand, what people need.
In US GM is a winner for CUV's. Will see what happened next year.
The most sales can not be = Best Car.
Whatever.
The CR-V happens to outsell all other CUVs in this forum. I guess it is better than GM, meaning it ISN'T the winner? It obviously meets more consumer's demands than the Acaida. Does this mean game-over until next years sales, by your rules? In US, Honda is the winner if we play your game, because it has the most sales with the CR-V..
The most luxury car have RWD. So I was tried to define what is it difference SUV or CUV? I thought FWD standard, but Mercedes R-class is 100% CUV. Yet, CRV, RAV....... in most websites called small UTILITY VEHICLE.
What do you think define CUV or SUV?