Subaru Legacy/Outback Engine Issues
Had my 2000 Legacy for 18 months and 22K miles. It is at 114K miles right now.
Never overheated, never had any problems with it, no rough driving, the car checked out fine in October at the dealership. The coolant additive was added during the flush last February and as a part of the recall before 100K miles.
Last week, during the regular oil change at the dealer, the mechanic noticed oil and antifreeze leaks, which were dignozed as headgasket problems.
The dealer started working on the headgaskets. Replaced one of the headgaskets, replaced the other and this one kept leaking oil. The dealership mechanic took out the engine again, replaced the headgasket again, started the engine, the car lost a quart of oil in 30 seconds. Mechanic inspected it again and concluded that "short engine block is warped at oil galley and the headgasket goes inside the block". The mechanic swears it's not his fault. The solution - replacing the short block engine at my expense (very pricy - half of what the car would sell for in good condition).
Do I have any recourse? on another forum somebody mentioned Consumer Protection Act, but I don't know how it would apply to me.
The replacement engine block will be new. Can I assume it will be the "new and improved" one without the headgasket problems? I called the dealer more than a dozen times by now, don't know if I can trust him anymore.
The other dealer who usually takes care of my car suggested that it might be the other dealer's fault. But how could he warp the engine in such a short time? If it was the previous owner that overheated the car, wouldn't have the problem surfaced a lot sooner?
Never overheated, never had any problems with it, no rough driving, the car checked out fine in October at the dealership. The coolant additive was added during the flush last February and as a part of the recall before 100K miles.
Last week, during the regular oil change at the dealer, the mechanic noticed oil and antifreeze leaks, which were dignozed as headgasket problems.
The dealer started working on the headgaskets. Replaced one of the headgaskets, replaced the other and this one kept leaking oil. The dealership mechanic took out the engine again, replaced the headgasket again, started the engine, the car lost a quart of oil in 30 seconds. Mechanic inspected it again and concluded that "short engine block is warped at oil galley and the headgasket goes inside the block". The mechanic swears it's not his fault. The solution - replacing the short block engine at my expense (very pricy - half of what the car would sell for in good condition).
Do I have any recourse? on another forum somebody mentioned Consumer Protection Act, but I don't know how it would apply to me.
The replacement engine block will be new. Can I assume it will be the "new and improved" one without the headgasket problems? I called the dealer more than a dozen times by now, don't know if I can trust him anymore.
The other dealer who usually takes care of my car suggested that it might be the other dealer's fault. But how could he warp the engine in such a short time? If it was the previous owner that overheated the car, wouldn't have the problem surfaced a lot sooner?
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Comments
What probably happened is the previous owner let it overheat, and somehow the problem hid itself until now.
The revised gasket material has been OK since 2002 or so. A new block would be true (i.e. not warped) so that's fine, I don't think it's different, it's just not overheated before.
Sorry to hear about it.
-juice
It is possible that they did not install the second gasket properly the first time around, potentially blocking one or more ports for oil and/or coolant flow. Start the engine under those conditions and several things could happen - a blocked, high-pressure oil port could blow the gasket even if the surfaces were flat at that point. Blocked oil or coolant flow could also create a hot spot in the block/head, and an uneven temperature situation is how you get warpage in the metal because it expands at different rates. That is why "air pockets" in the coolant can be so devastating - you get spots where the metal is not cooled evenly.
Now, could the warp have occurred prior to the first gasket replacement? Yes, but hard to say since the shop did not check it! If both gaskets were suffering similar leaks when it was first taken in, and the other side is still flat, then I have my doubts about this being the more likely scenario.
Back to the question of whether you can do anything about it..... probably not because of the lack of proof one way or the other. I would follow up with the protocols, though. If you can demonstrate a lack of competency on the part of the dealer, perhaps you can gain some partial remediation for your time and expense. In other words, is it not standard procedure in the industry to check the trueness of the surfaces before re-installing the gaskets? I mean, even I have enough sense to do that... and that is saying something! :P
Sadly, I doubt that you will come out of this situation fully satisfied, regardless of how well it goes from here on out.
Thanks
It would not surprise me at all if the mechanic did not follow this (admittedly very difficult) procedure when installing the new gaskets.
-juice
A co-worker has an '04 sedan with an H6, so perhaps he will humor me for a few minutes this afternoon. If so, I will go out there, have a look at it, and report back with the procedure should nobody else get back to you in the interim.
-juice
-mike
The fit to the bracket is very tight, I used some emery cloth to adjust the clearance a bit then carefully whacked it back into position -precision hammering, so to speak...
Step 2 if the BFH doesn't work, get a bigger BFH.
Rinse and Repeat.
-mike
Nonetheless, we finished the drive home and went directly to a minute lube service & had all new fluids & filters installed – the tech there saw nothing (besides the loose oil filter) as a problem. Next we took it to a coin operated car wash & cleaned the oil spray (which was all the way back to the rear bumper on the underside) once in the drive way the oil leak was still persistent. We tightened all obvious oil pan and etc. bolts – many were loose.
After a second test drive and more fresh oil wiping we have noticed the oil issue seems to be centered a round the black front engine cover plate connecting the 2 sides of the cylinders to crank shaft pulley. There is a oil drip on both sides (bottom).
We’re new to Subaru ownership and would appreciate any good advice on solutions to solve the problem quickly.
Thanks, Mike
Email: imthomas@nwi.net
Be cautious about using a high mileage car for a kid driver. They tend to not be so forgiving of abusive driving, if the child has a propensity for that. :mad:
Dean
My fingers remain crossed as to the car out lasting my "young driver" although he is paying the bill and had to sit still while the 6 hour repair was being done - hopefully he'll drive with a softer foot then most...
I am glad to hear it worked out well. Financial expense has a way of inducing responsible behavior, so it sounds like your son is on the right track!
It's been a great car for me. It's in pretty good shape, just put in $800 to fix an oil leak. I made the mistake last summer of leaving it sitting for the summer without being turned on, and had to put in about $800 to fix the brakes after that. Had a new clutch put in a few years ago as well.
I was told if I leave it, and have it turned on once a week, the brakes will still rust some. How much will that likely cost me?
And how much is a subaru of this age likely to cost me over the next several years. I've heard they keep going for a long time. If I keep it now, I'd probably want to get something newer in the next few years, but it may be that it will be more economical to hold on to it now if it likely won't cost me that much in the next few years, especially given that I've just put money into it. Or it might make sense to sell it while I can still get something for it, and since I'll be away.
Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Aaron
I would sell it.
-Brian
Len
I was keeping my fingers crossed on the '07 Outback. I switched it to 0W-30 Amsoil at about 4500 miles and planned on running that for the duration of the car's life. Not sure if it would have resulted in less or more likelihood of leaks. I will never know at this point!
You'd never know there was a leak until you pulled a plug wire. In talking to the parts guy at my local Subaru dealer, he told me they keep lots of those o-rings in stock, because it is such a common problem, and their service guys are changing them all the time. FWIW, I use Castrol GTX 5W30.
Len
-mike
As for the air, park the car on an incline (radiator up) and pull the bleed screw from the left side of the radiator. You should be able to work any air out of the system by initially filling through the upper radiator hose until full, then attach it and continue to fill through the radiator cap. Forcefully squeeze the upper radiator hose every so often to force the fluid around and work out any air. When the system is full and you get no bubbles, you should be good.
If air then returns to the system, you likely have a head gasket problem. Also, if there is black combustion gunk in the overflow tank, same deal. :sick:
-mike
Intermittent, that is, until it fails altogether!
When I had a failing water pump on mine, any overheating problem would manifest itself as soon as the car warmed up. In other words, the pump would not be working properly from the moment I started the car. Often times, when I saw the needle creeping up, a couple of quick revs and the needle would instantly drop back to normal. I never had it overheat after the car was running for a long while (and operating normally). So, it was random in terms of what operating cycle it happened, but not in terms of when during the operating cycle.
So, it might very well be air, but I bet the air is collecting due to a bad head gasket. If so, there are some tests a mechanic can perform to attempt to pinpoint the location of the problem.
-mike
Michelle
If so, the EZ30 is not known for that type of problem. That's very unusual.
Michelle
If it is coolant, then you likely have a head gasket issue. Alternatively, the car's block could be cracked, but I would think the head gasket to be the more likely problem.
As juice indicated, that would be a rare duck on the H6. Not that it makes you feel any better, but if the car is repaired, the problem should not recur. Keep on Subaru about it after you find out the mechanic's diagnosis. They may be willing, in good faith, to assist in the expense of the repair. That would not make it free for you, but cheaper nonetheless!