Post 234 by Cliffy1 noted "Don't do it" citing 2 problems you could encounter. No one on the Pathfinder site has mentioned any problems or static from dealers in getting their PA covered with US warranty. I would think that the service manager would welcome a potential new customer both under and without warranty. I have not checked MOB locally but since kilometers is a recognized unit of measure why wouldn't they or any potential buyer accept a statement of mileage stating kilometers converted, if necessary, to miles? As an aside, a bit off the posting, I, for one, am interested in saving $4000 or more on an identical vehicle even if it means extra trouble in paper work and time. This Canada situation may be a temporary thing but just as the dealers sell vehicles for as much as they can get the consumers are entitled to purchase at their best "deal". I for one appreciate the independent car dealers we have and the competition they offer. We will be sorry if the day comes when company fronts are the only place to buy a car.
There is very little difference. Except the Highlander seems to be a little roomier inside, and appears to have a bigger luggage capacity(could be my imagination). My wife and I just went for a quick "in and out".
It really do look like the RX300, both have the same shifter positions. But I like the Lexus look a little better.
We also sat in the MDX. Nice and good at for part, but there is a problem. The 2 rear seats are all but no use for a teenager up. I tried to sit there, and I'm not a tall man (5'9"), and I was packed in like a tuna fish. It really more meant as a 5-seater.
I read the USA Today review with interest. Keep in mind, the writer is typically pretty tough in his reviews. As for snow handling, he also said the ML was disappointing in the snow. My parents ML has been great in the snow and the tires are relatively wide at 255's, the Highlander's are 225's.
Of course, tires make a BIG difference. I've never owned a FWD car with snow's since we live in southern MA. Put snow's on my wife's Saab 9-3 this winter. The thing claws up hills. Amazing. Now all we need is more snow. I'm sure for those of you living in winter climates, a set of snows would make the Highlander one heck of snow vehicle.
As for comparisons with the RX, the Highlander is 4" longer and as a result does seem to have a bit more cargo space. Also, the look is different. It gives consumers more choices. I love how people who justify an RX see memory and heated seats as an absolute necessity. It's amazing how we can't do without these things once we've had them. I remember my vinyl bench seats on my parents station wagon with the 8 track player. Life is good these days!
Curiously, I visited a local dealer and spoke to the Sales Manager. He was adamant that the Highlander was $30k loaded with limited package and leather. I kept questioning, with AWD. Yes, With V-6, yes. I asked "I thought they topped out at $35k". Oh, no was the response. Something tells me he was looking at invoice, not MSRP. At invoice, I'll take one.
I think they should have offered the MDX as a 5 seater. It would have left more cargo space without the third row seat. Of course, that complicates things, something Honda hates. Don't blame them.
How would a 5-seat MDX offer more cargo space? The 3rd row seats fold flat into the floor as it is! The only way to add space would be to LOWER the floor!!!!!!!!!!!!
By the way an MDX with the 3rd seat folded flat (so you still have them when you get where you are going) has MORE cargo room than my Expedition has with its 3rd seat tilted forward and secured with the stow-away (so you still have your 3rd seat when you get there). MDX has class leading cargo room.
cliff1 your $32460 does not include leather does it? If you add leather your are at $33475 and there are other options one can get. Alas may be too expensive for me.
After reading many of the posts here, I've noticed that the MDX and RX300 to be mentioned most frequently as possible Highlander alternatives.
Is anybody here also considering the new Subaru Outback H-6 LL Bean or VDC models? I know these are station wagons, as opposed to an SUV, but many of the features and prices are quite comparable. The LL Bean is around $29K, and the VDC is around $32K.
There was an article about Subaru Outback in recent issue (maybe Dec. 2000). My impression after reading it was it is over priced with less features and less refined. It may have better on-snow performance though. I won't consider Subaru as alternatives to Toyota/Honda
Cliffy (and others) I just got my first Highlander as well. My incoming inventory is laden with the V6'es with 2WD, but my very first car is 4WD, Limited, in silver, loaded with leather, LL, sunroof, and load of other goodies... and a $32075 MSRP. Man, it's gorgeous, and rides/handles like a dream car!
A 5 seater MDX? There would be more room without the seats in the MDX. Just because they fold flat doesn't mean they don't take up room. If you take the seats out, you'd have a permanent depression in the floor in which you could store stuff under a lid aka Honda CRV. The Honda CR-V has storage under the floor for wet stuff and the picnic table. In addition, the 2002 Explorer without the third row seat states more cargo room though I have no idea whether they offer storage under the floor. My only point is that not everyone needs seating for 7. Why pay for it, if you don't need it. If you really need room for 7, a best bet is the Honda Odyssey or equivalent anyway. At least you get a real sized third row that offers decent leg room for adults. Of course, that's a minivan and some people wouldn't be caught dead in one. On the other hand, isn't the Highlander basically a Tall AWD Station Wagon? Not that there's anything wrong with that.
As for the Subaru, it's a nice vehicle, but that's a big premium over 4 cyl Outbacks. Even the V-6 Highlander Toyota is only $1,500 more than the 4 cyl version. Why not add the VW Passat 4Motion Wagon to the list too? Does the Highlander offer more cargo room than either wagon? I think it might.
are good alternatives to the Highlander, MDX or RX 300. For one thing, they're cars, and therefore meet all the safety standards (which are tougher than those for SUVs) that cars must meet. The center of gravity is lower, therefore they should handle better.
The H-6 Subaru Outback is priced very close to the V6 AWD Highlander. I'd be pretty certain that the H-4 Outback is priced pretty close to a 4-cylinder AWD Highlander, if that configuration is available.
As for refinement, Subarus are very close to Toyotas and Hondas. I've owned Hondas for years, and now own two Subarus, and am extremely satisfied.
I think MDX really meant to be a 5-seater. I think Honda/Acura squeezed in 2 more seats because they want to be able to compete with two different classes with money enough to build one new SUV.
My experience with the MDX is a over all positivie one. While not pretty, it's not bad looking. Seems like very nicely priced. But I find the 2 rear seats are almost added as an after thought. There simply isn't enough room for people teenage or older. My 5'9 body was crunch together, with my knees jammed into the back of the middle seat. There is no way you can get comfortable back there. And with the back seats up, there the cargo room is next to 0, unlike the large spacious cargo room if the seats are down. So it's only possible to carry 7 people for VERY short trips (seat will kill you quickly, besides, you can't carry enough stuff or a long trip).
I think it serves as a good, or even great, 5-seat SUV; but a poor, or even bad, 7 seat SUV. If getting 7/8 seat capacilty is little more than just after thought, you will want to get a bigger SUV than the MDX.
MDX is still a good SUV. But people are fooling you if they say it will serve as a 7 seater well. Just my 2 cents from my experience at the autoshow.
Just completed a Test drive today... V6, Front wheel drive.
Smoooooth operator, this Highlander. I sat in the back seat while my wife drove the re and I around.
Walk around -- This was a Sundown Red Pearl edition. There are brown tones in the Red, making the shade more red/brown/tannin than burgundy. Car was shod with Goodyear rubber 225 16" wheels. The car, while compact in length, still presents itself as a substantial vehicle, especially from the front, with the bumper assembly protruding & thrusting upward. There appears to be a skid plate in the front. Tailgate access is simple lift back, low entry easy access. Cargo space seems ample, however the wheel wells do cut into the width a bit. A removable cover was in place. A 12v cig.power outlet was in place, would love to see a regular plug socket there (a la Avalon).
The V6 looks very neat and tidy, seems to sit a little lower in the bay, which should translate into a lower center of gravity and better stability. Dipstick is readily at hand.
Interior...
Ivory/beige cloth seats have a sort of herringbone/twill monochrome pattern, with bolsters & backs in a standard brushed finish. Understated, no issues. Easy entry to all seats, and the back seats have a 3 position recline feature (in addition to folding flat with a single easy release). Back seat legroom was substantial, and there is room to slide your shoe under the front seat if needed. Plenty of headroom in back, too. Cupholders in the rear doors had room for both a cup and a bottle.
Front seat was power, there is a dead petal for the left foot. Visibility was good, mirrors very large. Ergos are all very good, nice sized wheel (not too large, not too thin), straightforward AC & stereo (this was the standard radio w/ Cassette and CD). Cup-holders are not in the dash or in a normal spot, they are down low on the right side of the drivers seat - both, and they fold outward. Big, but a little low and off-target for my normal cup of coffee in the AM. Not a deal killer but a little odd. I liked the auto-transmission pod and the walk-thru aisle -- actually used it when it was my turn to drive after sitting in the back. I suppose for those with kids it may be easier, esp. with a child seat in the rear center, to tend to the needs of the little prince with a clear aisle. You can always buy a nice basket or put a little cooler in there if it's important to have storage there.
The dashboard trim was a grey plastic that is supposed to look, I guess, like hammered pewter or something. I didn't like it, personally. I would prefer wood trim, but I don't think I can get it without having to sign up for the Ltd package in toto.
Driving...
The V6, as expected, is one of the best in the business. Smooth power delivery and acceleration. This car oops, SUV, has great road manners. It's very quiet, has great visibility, has a tidy turning radius, and handles bumps very easily. I stomped on the brakes and the ABS and the extra Brake Force system kicked in, bringing everything down to a controlled (if audibly unnerving) stop. I couldn't judge whether the distance was particularly short, but it didn't seem to be an overly long stopping distance.
I will look forward to driving the 4cyl to see what the drop-off is. The 6 is very sweet. I bet the 4 will not be too bad, and it runs on regular gas and gets 20% better mileage. That translates into over $300 per year in savings at 15k miles per year.
Pricing...
This will be the problem for me. This dealer, in TX, said all his allocation will come from the Gulf States Port in Houston, and they add lots of extras at the port. On this vehicle, there were $1,500 worth of extras, including side running bars ($440), a replacement mirror with a compass/thermometer ($350), $200 for some inscrutable glass etching/ltd warranty (aka profit), and the usual mats & nets.
The other model in stock, also a V6, did not have a limited package but did have leather -- it was a grey perforated leather, which strikes me as odd, I had expected only Ivory/beige. It didn't look very good, so I wonder if this was not from Japan. It also had it's own set of "Port extras", and it priced out at $32,000 MSRP, and again, it did not have a Limited package or a sunroof.
I will probably have to special order what we want so I can avoid the $1500 Port fleecing, and I don't know that I will have any negotiating power at that point.
Loved the vehicle, would like to test the 4cyl, and if we like its road manners, would buy a two-wheel drive Vintage Gold one with Airbags, roof rack, Mudguards and the Quick Order package (privacy glass, keyless entry and the tonneau cover). That would price out at roughly $25k MSRP. Having to buy a 6 would not be the end of the world, it's such a nice engine.
It's not a question of money per se - we can afford what we want to buy. I just know what we want, but I am not particularly looking forward to the purchasing experience and the games played between the Port and the dealers, and the time involved.
Toyota will sell many of these as delivered, so I won't be a priority.
You express dismay at the $35000 price tag posted here... when I use the Build Your Own at Toyota.com, and use the 'popular combination' option, I get a total of $34750... maybe not $35000, but darn close...
back on Jan 3, 2001 PST (#131) I stated that my local dealer was quoting me $35,000 on a Highlander. Most everyone here thought that was wrong in guessing the Highlanders would be loaded to the hilt and way overpriced. Well as I see the pricing come in it appears that $35, or very near, is very likely the price for many of these Highlanders. It is not the local dealer it is Toyota's regional network that controls all these at the port extras and jacks up the pricing. A system that is way out of date and one that I'm sure Toyota regrets ever setting up.
And again I ask if you go above the $30 mark why not buy a '99 Lexus RX with all the perks of the Lexus pre-owned program? The Highlander looks OK but its nothing near the looker the Lexus RX is.
To quote you, "My experience with the MDX is a over all positivie one. While not pretty, it's not bad looking. Seems like very nicely priced. But I find the 2 rear seats are almost added as an after thought."
I actually had the same impression. I really liked everything with the MDX (price, option package, mpg, handling, etc.) but, again, while not bad looking, I did not really find it pretty (IMO).
Somebody posted a while back that while everybody seems to agree that the 3rd seat is tight for teens and up, the following scenario is what it is supposedly aimed for:
A family of 4 or 5 goes on a long trip to visit relatives. Since they will be all stuffed with luggage, coolers, etc., the third seat will be folded and hidden to maximize cargo space. They get to the relatives' place, unload the junk, and have 2-3 people (hopefully kids)join them in local trips.
While Acura/Honda will never be able to convince me that they made an SUV that REALLY seats 7, I think the above scenario is logical, reasonable, and has large enough a niche.
If Toyota puts even an optional third seat on the Highlander (and of course with the safety features that come with the seats), I think there will be enough people to be attracted to it. Of, course, it would compete with the Sienna....
I looked at the Highlander today and I actually found it much nicer in person, and when the dust settles down, it will probably be competetively priced.
I have been waiting for the Highlander a long time and now I see the gouging has started and people are paying.Subaru is the only crossover vehicle with heavy discounts but the quality is not there. I have only owned one Toyota and it had a cold start problem fixed under warranty.I now have an Explorer which will be history soon because I want a quality 4 door wagon which limits the selection unless you want to spend over $30K.The worse thing about my Explorer is depreciation. It has been trouble free for 34K miles,knock on wood.
I live in Florida, what is the story with the "port extras" that are added on. When I was looking at Sequoias all seemed to have the etched glass, seat protectant, maybe even the dreaded undercoating. All these unneeded extras added almost another $1000 to the price. I have bought a Honda and a VW in the past couple years and neither time did I encounter this kind of add on. Thanks for any help.
Just give it a few months, and you'll find good discounts on the Highlander. Let the folks who have to be the first one on the block pay MSRP or close to it.
I'll give you my thoughts. I've waited until the Highlander was available to make my buying decision. The base MDX is $34,850, many agree that their Touring Package is not worth the extra money (different wheels, poor roofrack, etc). If it were available without leather, sunroof, and 3rd seat - it would be ~$32,000. A Toyota is not a Lexus, MB, BMW, or Acura. It therefore should be priced closer to $28,000 for an AWD V6 Limited. Toyota has it priced at $30,000 plus other unneeded options depending on where one lives. The Honda version of the MDX should be available without those price-gouging add-ons and be available without leather, sunroof, etc. Unfortunately for most of us that's still a couple of years away.
Is a comparably equipped MDX worth $2500 more than a $35,000 Highlander - obviously. What's the price difference between a Highlander and a comparably equipped new RX300? I would guess that it's a lot more than $2500. The Highlander may look properly priced compared to an RX300 but the MDX is definately worth thousands more than a Toyota.
You better look at Subarus again. The quality is definitely there. As the owner of two Subes, I can attest to that fact. Also, visit any of the Subaru forums here at Edmunds, and you will find a very passionate group of owners, who swear by (and not at) their Subes.
Toyotas are excellent products, but don't write off Subarus. They're excellent products too.
I think folks here criticizing the tight 3rd row seat of the MDX are missing the point. You can't really get very comfortable 3rd row seating in a mid-size SUV (best of the bunch is probably the M-class with the third-row, but even that one isn't the most optimal). It takes the dimensions of a full-sized SUV.
The third-row seat in the MDX is best left for kids or small adults. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to come up with scenarios where the seat, even if small, is useful. We pick up our nephews along with our son -- deploy one half of the third-row seat. You have three kids but have a longer piece of cargo -- fold down half of the third-row seat, and part of the second-row. You have two kids and grandma and grandpa come along for dinner -- put one or two of the kids in the back row. If you need to carry 7 adults at once -- buy a minivan or a full-sized SUV.
While Acura could have made even more cargo room by leaving the folded-down third-row seat out, the vehicle as-is has one of the most capacious, useable cargo areas (in the mid-sized class) behind the second-row seats with the third-row folded. Car & Driver used their "beer case" test to measure practical, safe cargo capacity, besides the usual cubic foot measurements and the MDX handily beat out a number of other SUV's.
That extra "utility" is a selling point -- not to everyone, agreed, but it's definitely useful for some buyers.
What are the key differences between the V6/AWD Highlander (without Ltd. package) and the SR5 4Runner? Cliffy/Dianne in particular, how do you position the two against each other? What are pros and cons (I know there won't be any of those) against comparably equipped Pathfinders?
Assume the prospective buyer in this case is female, does NOT want leather, sunroof, or heated seats, but does want power windows/doors and remote keyless entry, and could take or leave other comfort/convenience options. Usable cargo space is desirable. No children. Prefers being up high while driving, without having to do a lot of climbing to get in. Also prefers boxy looking to rounded, curvy exterior styling. No off roading. To put it in context, she loves her 87 Jeep Cherokee Laredo 4x4, which has been dying a slow death but is not yet dead; however, she did not like the 2001 JC on a test drive (too noisy, cheap looking interior), knows DC is abandoning the model, and may prefer something a little bigger (but certainly not so big as the Sequoia).
I'm not sure whether this makes things clearer or more confusing, but I appreciate any insights.
The Subarus have improved tremendously. They have Consumer Reports reliability ratings comparable to Toyota's and Hondas. The Legacy sedan has crash-test scores that are as good as a Camry's. The Highlander looks to be an excellent SUV, but 4-cylinder Outback wagons sell for about $200 above invoice in many parts of the country, and are reasonable alternatives if one doesn't need as much cargo capacity.
Another reason to consider a Highlander over an RX300 is payload capacity. The RX has a rather skimpy amount (about 900 lbs) while the Highlander's is more (1,100 to 1,500 lbs depending on configuration).
Overloading an SUV dramatically increases its likelihood to roll over in an accident. It's not inconceivable that a number of RX's out there may be overloaded.
this is a Toyota forum, so I don't want to push/shove Subarus in everyone's face here, but let me just say this:
We have, over in the Subaru forum area, a regular participant from Australia (who owns an Australian Outback), and who has said that in "rural" Australia—the real outback, Subarus are the third most popular vehicle, just behind Land Cruisers and Holden utilities. To me, that says a lot about a vehicle, and how it's regarded in a rugged environment.
You need only to drive the two. The Highlander on its Avalon-based chassis is far more car-like. I mean, candidly, the price is not always what does it. A Subaru Outback wagon with the H6 engine is as much as the Highlander 4WD but the Highlander is roomier, more centered, and a better buy. But, you asked that of a long-time Toyota veteran. I drove the Highlander (or Rav5 as I have nicknamed it)... and it's a winner.
To cattmandu, you express "something" odd there re: my saying that the $35000 pricetag on the MSRP is going to be the exception to the rule. I don't get your point.
I have said, and will say again, that the majority of MY 4WDs have what's considered to be a very popular set of options at a $32000 pricetag. The "excess" of options, ie. Limited (LL) package, leather, and perhaps things like VSC are in my area "excessive" and rare cars right now. They aren't needing that sort of rig here, so consequently, virtually every one of my 4WD V6's are stickering for $31000-$32000. I have no gulf-state addons, no "crap" packages, and no ones pockets to line with excessive features offered at a PORT facility.
The $35000 4WD Highlander will be the exception, not the *rule* here. That won't be a common find in SoCal. And, the 4WDs are not a huge seller for us here so that's the one I deal best on! Lucky for those hearing "pay sticker or get outta here" lately. I have emails out my ears with stories like that across the USA! As anyone might expect, once a brand new product debuts, it's so hard to start with the deep discounts at all right out of the gate.
I driven many a Subaru, including the new H-6 LL Bean and VDC models. And, I very much look forward to driving the Highlander.
With all due respect, I have to disagree with you regarding the Highlander as being more car-like than the Outback. The Outback is a car. The Highlander isn't, it's an SUV-hybrid. The Outback is much lower, and handles much more like a sporty car than I would think a much taller vehicle like the Highlander would. But again, since I haven't driven a Highlander, I'm just speculating. However, logic is on my side.
I'm not sure I know what you mean by being centered?? I will grant you, however, the Highlander is roomier than an Outback. It may(?) be a better buy, depending on your priorities than an H-6 Outback, but it's not a better buy than an H-4 Outback.
Some people just don't get it!!!!!!! There is no difference worth arguing about between MDX 3rd seat and an Expeditions 3rd seat. Sequoia not much bigger than the MDX. If you want a comfortable 3rd seat get a mini-van or a Suburban! Period!! Other than mini-vans and Suburbans all 3rd row seats are compromises to one degree or another. One doesn't buy the 3rd seat of any "normal" SUV to haul adults around back there on a continual basis.
It was ironic, when we arrived home today from the Toyota dealer with our new Highlander, there was a message on our answering machine that the MDX we ordered in AUGUST had finally arrived. Unfortunately, the MDX was a casualty of falling Internet stocks, and mostly the refusal of the sales manager to give me anything close to a fair trade-in on my 97 CL 3.0, which I purchased there. I literally received $3700 more at the Toyota dealer, with more miles too. So, I am not too pleased with Continental Acura in Lisle IL (Chicago area) but am pleased with Oak Brook Toyota in Westmont. I basically paid sticker price. From calling around, the impression I received that MSRP was what I had to pay. We worked with Dan Clark, and I would recommend him. Was knowledgeable, enthusiastic, and did not push any "dealer added" options on us, like undercoating and such. Seemed like a good guy overall. Tell him that the first person (with the wife whose name he could not pronounce) whom he sold the HL to sent you.
We purchased the V6 AWD Limited with leather and 6-Disk CD. Paid $33505. We wanted but did not get the VSC and Side Airbags. The HL with those options in stock was white, which I love but my wife hates. So, ours is gold. Those options would have cost $1300 more. Dan threw in all weather floor mats in for free.
Things we like:
The inside looks and feels refined and luxurious. Not MDX or RS 300 level, but not far from it. The performance of the engine is great; comparable to the PF and Ford/Mazda Escape/Tribute, much better than Santa Fe and RAV4, which we test-drove today just to make sure that we did not want them. Rear seats are adjustable in the back, which really helps tall people. The seats are comfortable for both of us. I am 6'3" and heavy, and my wife is 6'0" with long legs. The front seats are of course, much better, with decent legroom for both of us.
Things we don't like:
No trip computer for est. mileage left on fuel, and NO (yes, I am anal on this) COMPASS. No center console. Where I am going to put my cell phone I do not know yet. My sales guy is looking into getting us a price for one. No audio or cruise controls on steering wheel. The security horn/speaker very soft and difficult to hear. I have a high frequency hearing loss, and I can barley here the tiny speaker or horn beeping when the doors are unlocked, or more importantly, when you a door is not closed properly, which we learned tonight in our QUIET garage. Even my wife with perfect hearing thought it was hard to hear. I liked my Acura much better, which I could set not to beep at all, except when it could not lock properly, in which case the horns honked. For the most part, these are fairly minor things.
Overall, this is the best compromise that we could find after the MDX. The Escape/Tribute have five recalls already and look/feel cheep inside, RAV4 and others in its class too are small. American SUV's are gas guzzling or are (OHV engines) outdated. The Santa Fe is built by Hyundai, (I once owned an Excel, and since vowed never buy Korean ANYTHING) The 4 Runner is too pricey for what you get and not as much room or power either!
The other SUV which we seriously considered was the 2001 Pathfinder. However, the deciding factor was 3-4 more MPG, rear seat (33 vs. 36) legroom, warranty, breaking distance, lower octane fuel requirements, and looks. Ironically, the price on a fully loaded PF LE would have been about the same or less than the HL, due to discounts. If I had a need for more serious off road use or towing, then the PF would be the best choice. In any case, we are pleased with our purchased. The most difficult thing is driving 55 on the area interstates without getting rammed from behind during the break-in period.
Panzer
BTW, kudos to Edmunds for already having pricing on the HL. No other web site has them yet. Of course, it will not help you if you have to buy MSRP, but it will help you keep the dealer honest and know what to expec
Having leased a RX300 for over a year now, I just laid my eyes on the new Highlander at the LA Auto Show last week. It's a RX300 in my eyes. The dash is similar, the chassis is the same, the engine is the same, and they're the same company! The differences are cosmetic and the lack of fluffy options: computer, Navigation, Vehicle Skid Control, etc. OK, there's no Nakamichi, there's JBL. The base Highlander just starts out with less: 4 cyl engine and cloth seats.
Just by observation, the Highlander seems a tad longer for cargo space. There's no center console, or a center armrest in the back seat. The Highlander is basically the SAME vehicle but $6000 cheaper.
When my lease is up a year and a half from now, you bet I'll consider the Highlander before leasing another RX. A Nav? I don't need no stinkin' Nav! :-) The Lexus service would be the most missed!
"Seems to me I should wait a few months(year?) till the playing field is a bit equal... The MDX and Highlander will be getting artificially high prices until the excitement wears off...the model I saw(and would want) at the Show(with leather, upgraded audio, AWD, but no VSC) stickered at 34,500.00(27-290000??? Sure)Until dealers can deal down from there, why bother?"
The markup is quite hefty on these (no wonder the dealers are enthusiastic....), so there is definitely a heck of a lot of room downward.
"Another example of quick Toyota response is the Tundra truck. Huge hit. Demand rockets. Toyota shelled out $800 milllion right away and increased the North American production by 300,000 in 1999"
Honda is a relatively small company in the universe of automobile companies. Toyota, on the other hand, is very large. It's only a matter of time before Honda is bought out or becomes partly owned by someone like DC.
If you don't plan on off roading, nor towing, the Highlander is the obvious choice between the Runner and Highlander. The Runner is positioned more for serious off road and 4 wheeling situations while the Highlander has a lot to utility but is more suited to pavement. The AWD set up will be great for snow, ice and wet and winding roads. It will also cost a good bit less for the same level of equipment. An SR5 Runner has an MSRP. of over $34000 and a Limited Highlander without leather runs just over $32000 and has a better stereo and security system.
You can get the Runner heavily discounted but I think in your situation, you'd be better off in the Highlander.
Based on the shortcomings you stated, why not just get an RX? I haven't taken delivery yet, but I believe you can customize many features of the car from the systems console. If you were considering an MDX, the RX is in the same price range now because of dealer discounts, nobody pays MSRP on RXs anymore (unless they like to).
Don't get me wrong I think all three cars, RX, MDX, HL, are great for their respective niches. It just sounded like to me that an RX would fit you better. I could be wrong.
grplavloff- I wouldn't count on that. Yes, Honda is much smaller than Toyota, but they are also fiercely independent.
I know many other car companys would love to have Honda as part of their product portfolio. I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening, however. If anything, Honda may buy some other company, but not the other way around.
The RX 300 was just outside what we were willing to pay. I believe that it would have been about $3000 more (PK package option) similarly equipped, assuming that the dealer will deal. Also, the HL is wider and longer, giving us a little more room. Very important for our mix boxer/linebacker dog. Still, the RX 300 is an excellent SUV, and the treatment at the Lexus dealers is an example to the rest of luxury auto (hint --> Acura) industry of how it should be done. We considered a used RX 300 briefly, but when we drove into the dealership and the truck was there unloading the new HL's, well that was the end of that. Right now I am wondering if a console for the RX would install into my HL. That might just work nicely.
A fully loaded HL limited at $35K is NEITHER an RX nor an MDX (will never be), but (1) somebody will still buy that $35K HL and (2)the real advantage the HL has over the RX and MDX is the customer's choice of NOT getting all the bells and whistles. "Normal" people (or I should really say, average people) will NOT pay $35K for HL because they can get a much better value with the RX or MDX, even for slightly more money. Since a "strip down" model RX or MDX is not available, customers who can't afford or are not willing to pay for the RX/MDX have an option to buy a good $28K-$30K hybrid SUV.
When I went to see the HL yesterday, I also saw a $42K 4Runner LTD. I wondered who would buy it, since a few steps away a $44K Seq Ltd was also sitting. Sometimes, it's hard to figure out what people really want. I'm glad there are enough choices, even for the weird ones.
Been lurking in this board and noticed that it seemed like you were pushing hard for the AL and tried to justify for its MSRP. I also understand that you are working for a Toyota dealer. But there is no question about the MDX is better, engineering- wise and price-wise, considering both are selling at or above MSRP. My prediction is that the He's price will drop to its "right" place in future but the MDX will very much stay at MSRP. (Odessy like). Tell me which Toyotas are not discounted now!! except for the new Sequoia and Rav4, every thing else is few thousand dollars off. Regarding the 4Runner as AL, I think the AL is more expensive with a heavy discount on the 4Runner. I was offered a 4Runner SR5 with comparable equipment with the AL for less than 28.5K. I would have to pay thousands more for the HL now. Not saying that the HL is a bad car or overpriced; but I am willing to wait for a while for the hoopla to die down before I look at the HL again. Personally I don't like the 4Runner much for its bumpy rides and too narrow body...Will buy a HL in 6 to 12 months with some discounts, not MSRP with ripped-off ad-ons...
You are correct that prices will drop in the future. This year, Toyota will be building 70K of them. In the future, they will be making 200K a year. You make some valid points but the one thing you did that the other guy did as well is to make a gratuitous statement about the MDX. You claim it is worth the MSRP. while the HL is not but offered no backing to that statement.
You and a few others have made statement about relative values but provide no evidence to back it up. I'll ask again, if an MDX is worth $37K (I think that is what they are going for with typical equipment comparable to a FULLY loaded HL) and the back seat is nearly unuseable, why isn't the HL worth $35K?
1) THe "back seat" is huge compared to other SUVs, it's the third row seating that is "unusable" for adults
2) A MDX touring package IS NOT comparable to a loaded HL... the MDX blows it away. The HL doesn't have memory for the seats + mirrors, electrochromic mirrors, programmable LCD systems display, and other stuff.
3) A base MDX at a MSRP price of $34,370 is a fairer comparison. But you are getting on the MDX a bigger engine, 5-speed transmission, rear HVAC ducts, steering wheel mounted radio controls, full floor console, etc. I've now seen both vehicles personally and the fit, finish and quality of materials on the MDX is better. Doesn't mean the HL is bad, MDX is just better. Plus you get Acura 4 year warranty and service for this price.
If the MDX was 1/2 foot skinnier, I might have bought it over the RX. It actually won't fit in my driveway.
Since you've been comparison shopping SUV's in this general price range recently, how do you compare quality of materials between the Highlander and RX? Were corners cut there to keep the Highlander more affordable (and to have more room for sharp discounting)?
I think you missed my point totally. I never claimed the MDX worth the MSRP, and not the HL. What I said was: The MDX is better price-wise than the HL. If you asked me, as long as general public is willing to pay for the MSRP, then the vehicle is worth the MSRP (market demand vs supply). Therefore both MDX and HL are worth the MSRP. But if I had to buy now, I would pick the MDX over the HL but that's a lot of money for me. So, again, I am willing to wait out 6 months to pick up a HL FWD V6, not limited, with few common options for around 26-27K. Since you're considered an insider, do you think that figure is reasonable. Appreciate your comments (and enjoy Diane's straight info/opinion too). Thanks.
Corners were not "cut" on the HL in my opinion... it's just a different class of car than the RX. The RX materials are of better quality and hence you pay for it. I do like the fact that many of the RX's underlying safety systems are available on HL as an option. But if folks aren't taking advantage of this and skipping stuff like AWD and VSC, then you could just as easily buy any number of SUVs out there.
The quality of materials in the HL are good and typical of any other Japanese auto. I speak from experience with this example: We lease a '97 Nissan PF, we bought a '99 Pontiac Grand Am. I got the Grand Am because you got a lot of car for the money (cruise, steering wheel radio controls, V6, Traction control, roomy) and there was a great interest rate. THe car is serving us well, but... it just "feels" cheap. The cruise control switches are flimsy when compared to a Nissan, Honda or Toyota. Other switches aren't "firm". You can see the "seam" in the plastic armrest from the mold. The dashboard vinyl/plastic looks/feels "cheaper" than my PF.
What I'm saying in a roundabout way is that the HL materials are of typical good quality found in most Japanese cars. But it's not meant to be a "luxury class" vehicle. The RX is and I appreciate the differences. Am I willing to pay extra just for "better leather"? Hell no, but like I said previous messages, there are amenities and systems on the RX that you can't get on a HL that I personally want.
It's all about choice. But if given a choice between a fully loaded HL and a "base" MDX, I'll take the MDX.
Whether or not Toyota wants to admit it, Lexus IS the upscale/higher-end vehicle. Does that make a Toyota inferior to a Lexus, of course not. But by the same token there are obvious advantages the Lexus name brings to the consideration of a vehicle.
In the same way, again whether Toyota/Lexus wants to admit it or not, Acura is an upscale/higher-end vehicle. There are advantages that the Acura name brings to the table in the same way the Lexus name does. Feature for feature, name for name, dollar for dollar, I believe that MDX offers substantially more than Highlander does.
As has been pointed out frequently before, an AWD V6 Limited w/ Leather, side-airbags, moon-roof, roof-rack, heated seats, CD changer, would MSRP at $33805. If such a vehicle could be configured this way without too much difficulty. The base MDX with all this and MORE has an MSRP of $34850.
So as documented as well as I know how an MDX provides a better deal (more features, larger vehicle, more passenger/cargo options, better name, better warranty, etc) than a fully loaded Highlander at this time.
Comments
It really do look like the RX300, both have the same shifter positions. But I like the Lexus look a little better.
We also sat in the MDX. Nice and good at for part, but there is a problem. The 2 rear seats are all but no use for a teenager up. I tried to sit there, and I'm not a tall man (5'9"), and I was packed in like a tuna fish. It really more meant as a 5-seater.
Of course, tires make a BIG difference. I've never owned a FWD car with snow's since we live in southern MA. Put snow's on my wife's Saab 9-3 this winter. The thing claws up hills. Amazing. Now all we need is more snow. I'm sure for those of you living in winter climates, a set of snows would make the Highlander one heck of snow vehicle.
As for comparisons with the RX, the Highlander is 4" longer and as a result does seem to have a bit more cargo space. Also, the look is different. It gives consumers more choices. I love how people who justify an RX see memory and heated seats as an absolute necessity. It's amazing how we can't do without these things once we've had them. I remember my vinyl bench seats on my parents station wagon with the 8 track player. Life is good these days!
Curiously, I visited a local dealer and spoke to the Sales Manager. He was adamant that the Highlander was $30k loaded with limited package and leather. I kept questioning, with AWD. Yes, With V-6, yes. I asked "I thought they topped out at $35k". Oh, no was the response. Something tells me he was looking at invoice, not MSRP. At invoice, I'll take one.
I think they should have offered the MDX as a 5 seater. It would have left more cargo space without the third row seat. Of course, that complicates things, something Honda hates. Don't blame them.
By the way an MDX with the 3rd seat folded flat (so you still have them when you get where you are going) has MORE cargo room than my Expedition has with its 3rd seat tilted forward and secured with the stow-away (so you still have your 3rd seat when you get there). MDX has class leading cargo room.
Is anybody here also considering the new Subaru Outback H-6 LL Bean or VDC models? I know these are station wagons, as opposed to an SUV, but many of the features and prices are quite comparable. The LL Bean is around $29K, and the VDC is around $32K.
Bob
-Dianne
dianne@earthlink.net
As for the Subaru, it's a nice vehicle, but that's a big premium over 4 cyl Outbacks. Even the V-6 Highlander Toyota is only $1,500 more than the 4 cyl version. Why not add the VW Passat 4Motion Wagon to the list too? Does the Highlander offer more cargo room than either wagon? I think it might.
The H-6 Subaru Outback is priced very close to the V6 AWD Highlander. I'd be pretty certain that the H-4 Outback is priced pretty close to a 4-cylinder AWD Highlander, if that configuration is available.
As for refinement, Subarus are very close to Toyotas and Hondas. I've owned Hondas for years, and now own two Subarus, and am extremely satisfied.
Bob
My experience with the MDX is a over all positivie one. While not pretty, it's not bad looking. Seems like very nicely priced. But I find the 2 rear seats are almost added as an after thought. There simply isn't enough room for people teenage or older. My 5'9 body was crunch together, with my knees jammed into the back of the middle seat. There is no way you can get comfortable back there. And with the back seats up, there the cargo room is next to 0, unlike the large spacious cargo room if the seats are down. So it's only possible to carry 7 people for VERY short trips (seat will kill you quickly, besides, you can't carry enough stuff or a long trip).
I think it serves as a good, or even great, 5-seat SUV; but a poor, or even bad, 7 seat SUV. If getting 7/8 seat capacilty is little more than just after thought, you will want to get a bigger SUV than the MDX.
MDX is still a good SUV. But people are fooling you if they say it will serve as a 7 seater well. Just my 2 cents from my experience at the autoshow.
Smoooooth operator, this Highlander. I sat in the back seat while my wife drove the re and I around.
Walk around -- This was a Sundown Red Pearl edition. There are brown tones in the Red, making the shade more red/brown/tannin than burgundy. Car was shod with Goodyear rubber 225 16" wheels. The car, while compact in length, still presents itself as a substantial vehicle, especially from the front, with the bumper assembly protruding & thrusting upward. There appears to be a skid plate in the front. Tailgate access is simple lift back, low entry easy access. Cargo space seems ample, however the wheel wells do cut into the width a bit. A removable cover was in place. A 12v cig.power outlet was in place, would love to see a regular plug socket there (a la Avalon).
The V6 looks very neat and tidy, seems to sit a little lower in the bay, which should translate into a lower center of gravity and better stability. Dipstick is readily at hand.
Interior...
Ivory/beige cloth seats have a sort of herringbone/twill monochrome pattern, with bolsters & backs in a standard brushed finish. Understated, no issues. Easy entry to all seats, and the back seats have a 3 position recline feature (in addition to folding flat with a single easy release). Back seat legroom was substantial, and there is room to slide your shoe under the front seat if needed. Plenty of headroom in back, too. Cupholders in the rear doors had room for both a cup and a bottle.
Front seat was power, there is a dead petal for the left foot. Visibility was good, mirrors very large. Ergos are all very good, nice sized wheel (not too large, not too thin), straightforward AC & stereo (this was the standard radio w/ Cassette and CD). Cup-holders are not in the dash or in a normal spot, they are down low on the right side of the drivers seat - both, and they fold outward. Big, but a little low and off-target for my normal cup of coffee in the AM. Not a deal killer but a little odd. I liked the auto-transmission pod and the walk-thru aisle -- actually used it when it was my turn to drive after sitting in the back. I suppose for those with kids it may be easier, esp. with a child seat in the rear center, to tend to the needs of the little prince with a clear aisle. You can always buy a nice basket or put a little cooler in there if it's important to have storage there.
The dashboard trim was a grey plastic that is supposed to look, I guess, like hammered pewter or something. I didn't like it, personally. I would prefer wood trim, but I don't think I can get it without having to sign up for the Ltd package in toto.
Driving...
The V6, as expected, is one of the best in the business. Smooth power delivery and acceleration. This car oops, SUV, has great road manners. It's very quiet, has great visibility, has a tidy turning radius, and handles bumps very easily. I stomped on the brakes and the ABS and the extra Brake Force system kicked in, bringing everything down to a controlled (if audibly unnerving) stop. I couldn't judge whether the distance was particularly short, but it didn't seem to be an overly long stopping distance.
I will look forward to driving the 4cyl to see what the drop-off is. The 6 is very sweet. I bet the 4 will not be too bad, and it runs on regular gas and gets 20% better mileage. That translates into over $300 per year in savings at 15k miles per year.
Pricing...
This will be the problem for me. This dealer, in TX, said all his allocation will come from the Gulf States Port in Houston, and they add lots of extras at the port. On this vehicle, there were $1,500 worth of extras, including side running bars ($440), a replacement mirror with a compass/thermometer ($350), $200 for some inscrutable glass etching/ltd warranty (aka profit), and the usual mats & nets.
The other model in stock, also a V6, did not have a limited package but did have leather -- it was a grey perforated leather, which strikes me as odd, I had expected only Ivory/beige. It didn't look very good, so I wonder if this was not from Japan. It also had it's own set of "Port extras", and it priced out at $32,000 MSRP, and again, it did not have a Limited package or a sunroof.
I will probably have to special order what we want so I can avoid the $1500 Port fleecing, and I don't know that I will have any negotiating power at that point.
Loved the vehicle, would like to test the 4cyl, and if we like its road manners, would buy a two-wheel drive Vintage Gold one with Airbags, roof rack, Mudguards and the Quick Order package (privacy glass, keyless entry and the tonneau cover). That would price out at roughly $25k MSRP. Having to buy a 6 would not be the end of the world, it's such a nice engine.
It's not a question of money per se - we can afford what we want to buy. I just know what we want, but I am not particularly looking forward to the purchasing experience and the games played between the Port and the dealers, and the time involved.
Toyota will sell many of these as delivered, so I won't be a priority.
redirector@aol.com
Toyota.com, and use the 'popular combination' option, I get a total of $34750... maybe not $35000, but darn close...
And again I ask if you go above the $30 mark why not buy a '99 Lexus RX with all the perks of the Lexus pre-owned program? The Highlander looks OK but its nothing near the looker the Lexus RX is.
I actually had the same impression. I really liked everything with the MDX (price, option package, mpg, handling, etc.) but, again, while not bad looking, I did not really find it pretty (IMO).
Somebody posted a while back that while everybody seems to agree that the 3rd seat is tight for teens and up, the following scenario is what it is supposedly aimed for:
A family of 4 or 5 goes on a long trip to visit relatives. Since they will be all stuffed with luggage, coolers, etc., the third seat will be folded and hidden to maximize cargo space. They get to the relatives' place, unload the junk, and have 2-3 people (hopefully kids)join them in local trips.
While Acura/Honda will never be able to convince me that they made an SUV that REALLY seats 7, I think the above scenario is logical, reasonable, and has large enough a niche.
If Toyota puts even an optional third seat on the Highlander (and of course with the safety features that come with the seats), I think there will be enough people to be attracted to it. Of, course, it would compete with the Sienna....
I looked at the Highlander today and I actually found it much nicer in person, and when the dust settles down, it will probably be competetively priced.
and now I see the gouging has started and people
are paying.Subaru is the only crossover vehicle
with heavy discounts but the quality is not there.
I have only owned one Toyota and it had a cold
start problem fixed under warranty.I now have
an Explorer which will be history soon because
I want a quality 4 door wagon which limits the selection unless you want to spend over $30K.The worse thing about my Explorer is depreciation.
It has been trouble free for 34K miles,knock on wood.
Is a comparably equipped MDX worth $2500 more than a $35,000 Highlander - obviously. What's the price difference between a Highlander and a comparably equipped new RX300? I would guess that it's a lot more than $2500. The Highlander may look properly priced compared to an RX300 but the MDX is definately worth thousands more than a Toyota.
Toyotas are excellent products, but don't write off Subarus. They're excellent products too.
Bob
The third-row seat in the MDX is best left for kids or small adults. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to come up with scenarios where the seat, even if small, is useful. We pick up our nephews along with our son -- deploy one half of the third-row seat. You have three kids but have a longer piece of cargo -- fold down half of the third-row seat, and part of the second-row. You have two kids and grandma and grandpa come along for dinner -- put one or two of the kids in the back row. If you need to carry 7 adults at once -- buy a minivan or a full-sized SUV.
While Acura could have made even more cargo room by leaving the folded-down third-row seat out, the vehicle as-is has one of the most capacious, useable cargo areas (in the mid-sized class) behind the second-row seats with the third-row folded. Car & Driver used their "beer case" test to measure practical, safe cargo capacity, besides the usual cubic foot measurements and the MDX handily beat out a number of other SUV's.
That extra "utility" is a selling point -- not to everyone, agreed, but it's definitely useful for some buyers.
Assume the prospective buyer in this case is female, does NOT want leather, sunroof, or heated seats, but does want power windows/doors and remote keyless entry, and could take or leave other comfort/convenience options. Usable cargo space is desirable. No children. Prefers being up high while driving, without having to do a lot of climbing to get in. Also prefers boxy looking to rounded, curvy exterior styling. No off roading. To put it in context, she loves her 87 Jeep Cherokee Laredo 4x4, which has been dying a slow death but is not yet dead; however, she did not like the 2001 JC on a test drive (too noisy, cheap looking interior), knows DC is abandoning the model, and may prefer something a little bigger (but certainly not so big as the Sequoia).
I'm not sure whether this makes things clearer or more confusing, but I appreciate any insights.
Overloading an SUV dramatically increases its likelihood to roll over in an accident. It's not inconceivable that a number of RX's out there may be overloaded.
We have, over in the Subaru forum area, a regular participant from Australia (who owns an Australian Outback), and who has said that in "rural" Australia—the real outback, Subarus are the third most popular vehicle, just behind Land Cruisers and Holden utilities. To me, that says a lot about a vehicle, and how it's regarded in a rugged environment.
Bob
To cattmandu, you express "something" odd there re: my saying that the $35000 pricetag on the MSRP is going to be the exception to the rule. I don't get your point.
I have said, and will say again, that the majority of MY 4WDs have what's considered to be a very popular set of options at a $32000 pricetag. The "excess" of options, ie. Limited (LL) package, leather, and perhaps things like VSC are in my area "excessive" and rare cars right now. They aren't needing that sort of rig here, so consequently, virtually every one of my 4WD V6's are stickering for $31000-$32000.
I have no gulf-state addons, no "crap" packages, and no ones pockets to line with excessive features offered at a PORT facility.
The $35000 4WD Highlander will be the exception, not the *rule* here. That won't be a common find in SoCal. And, the 4WDs are not a huge seller for us here so that's the one I deal best on! Lucky for those hearing "pay sticker or get outta here" lately. I have emails out my ears with stories like that across the USA!
-Di
With all due respect, I have to disagree with you regarding the Highlander as being more car-like than the Outback. The Outback is a car. The Highlander isn't, it's an SUV-hybrid. The Outback is much lower, and handles much more like a sporty car than I would think a much taller vehicle like the Highlander would. But again, since I haven't driven a Highlander, I'm just speculating. However, logic is on my side.
I'm not sure I know what you mean by being centered?? I will grant you, however, the Highlander is roomier than an Outback. It may(?) be a better buy, depending on your priorities than an H-6 Outback, but it's not a better buy than an H-4 Outback.
Bob
Because everyone knows that within several months, the Highlander is going to be discounted a couple of thousand or so in many markets.
You asked ;-)
We purchased the V6 AWD Limited with leather and 6-Disk CD. Paid $33505. We wanted but did not get the VSC and Side Airbags. The HL with those options in stock was white, which I love but my wife hates. So, ours is gold. Those options would have cost $1300 more. Dan threw in all weather floor mats in for free.
Things we like:
The inside looks and feels refined and luxurious. Not MDX or RS 300 level, but not far from it.
The performance of the engine is great; comparable to the PF and Ford/Mazda Escape/Tribute, much better than Santa Fe and RAV4, which we test-drove today just to make sure that we did not want them.
Rear seats are adjustable in the back, which really helps tall people. The seats are comfortable for both of us. I am 6'3" and heavy, and my wife is 6'0" with long legs. The front seats are of course, much better, with decent legroom for both of us.
Things we don't like:
No trip computer for est. mileage left on fuel, and NO (yes, I am anal on this) COMPASS.
No center console. Where I am going to put my cell phone I do not know yet. My sales guy is looking into getting us a price for one.
No audio or cruise controls on steering wheel.
The security horn/speaker very soft and difficult to hear. I have a high frequency hearing loss, and I can barley here the tiny speaker or horn beeping when the doors are unlocked, or more importantly, when you a door is not closed properly, which we learned tonight in our QUIET garage. Even my wife with perfect hearing thought it was hard to hear. I liked my Acura much better, which I could set not to beep at all, except when it could not lock properly, in which case the horns honked. For the most part, these are fairly minor things.
Overall, this is the best compromise that we could find after the MDX. The Escape/Tribute have five recalls already and look/feel cheep inside, RAV4 and others in its class too are small. American SUV's are gas guzzling or are (OHV engines) outdated. The Santa Fe is built by Hyundai, (I once owned an Excel, and since vowed never buy Korean ANYTHING) The 4 Runner is too pricey for what you get and not as much room or power either!
The other SUV which we seriously considered was the 2001 Pathfinder. However, the deciding factor was 3-4 more MPG, rear seat (33 vs. 36) legroom, warranty, breaking distance, lower octane fuel requirements, and looks. Ironically, the price on a fully loaded PF LE would have been about the same or less than the HL, due to discounts. If I had a need for more serious off road use or towing, then the PF would be the best choice. In any case, we are pleased with our purchased. The most difficult thing is driving 55 on the area interstates without getting rammed from behind during the break-in period.
Panzer
BTW, kudos to Edmunds for already having pricing on the HL. No other web site has them yet. Of course, it will not help you if you have to buy MSRP, but it will help you keep the dealer honest and know what to expec
Just by observation, the Highlander seems a tad longer for cargo space. There's no center console, or a center armrest in the back seat. The Highlander is basically the SAME vehicle but $6000 cheaper.
When my lease is up a year and a half from now, you bet I'll consider the Highlander before leasing another RX. A Nav? I don't need no stinkin' Nav! :-) The Lexus service would be the most missed!
The MDX and Highlander will be getting artificially high prices until the excitement
wears off...the model I saw(and would want) at the Show(with leather, upgraded audio, AWD, but no VSC) stickered at 34,500.00(27-290000??? Sure)Until dealers can deal down from there, why bother?"
The markup is quite hefty on these (no wonder the dealers are enthusiastic....), so there is definitely a heck of a lot of room downward.
Honda is a relatively small company in the universe of automobile companies. Toyota, on the other hand, is very large. It's only a matter of time before Honda is bought out or becomes partly owned by someone like DC.
On the other hand, it's a great place to put a briefcase or a pocketbook or both.
You can get the Runner heavily discounted but I think in your situation, you'd be better off in the Highlander.
Don't get me wrong I think all three cars, RX, MDX, HL, are great for their respective niches. It just sounded like to me that an RX would fit you better. I could be wrong.
TC
I know many other car companys would love to have Honda as part of their product portfolio. I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening, however. If anything, Honda may buy some other company, but not the other way around.
Bob
The RX 300 was just outside what we were willing to pay. I believe that it would have been about $3000 more (PK package option) similarly equipped, assuming that the dealer will deal. Also, the HL is wider and longer, giving us a little more room. Very important for our mix boxer/linebacker dog. Still, the RX 300 is an excellent SUV, and the treatment at the Lexus dealers is an example to the rest of luxury auto (hint --> Acura) industry of how it should be done. We considered a used RX 300 briefly, but when we drove into the dealership and the truck was there unloading the new HL's, well that was the end of that. Right now I am wondering if a console for the RX would install into my HL. That might just work nicely.
Panzer
When I went to see the HL yesterday, I also saw a $42K 4Runner LTD. I wondered who would buy it, since a few steps away a $44K Seq Ltd was also sitting. Sometimes, it's hard to figure out what people really want. I'm glad there are enough choices, even for the weird ones.
for the AL and tried to justify for its MSRP. I also understand that you are working
for a Toyota dealer. But there is no question about the MDX is better, engineering-
wise and price-wise, considering both are selling at or above MSRP. My prediction
is that the He's price will drop to its "right" place in future but the MDX will very much
stay at MSRP. (Odessy like). Tell me which Toyotas are not discounted now!! except
for the new Sequoia and Rav4, every thing else is few thousand dollars off. Regarding
the 4Runner as AL, I think the AL is more expensive with a heavy discount on the
4Runner. I was offered a 4Runner SR5 with comparable equipment with the AL for
less than 28.5K. I would have to pay thousands more for the HL now. Not saying that the HL is a bad car or overpriced; but I am willing
to wait for a while for the hoopla to die down before I look at the HL again. Personally
I don't like the 4Runner much for its bumpy rides and too narrow body...Will buy a HL
in 6 to 12 months with some discounts, not MSRP with ripped-off ad-ons...
You and a few others have made statement about relative values but provide no evidence to back it up. I'll ask again, if an MDX is worth $37K (I think that is what they are going for with typical equipment comparable to a FULLY loaded HL) and the back seat is nearly unuseable, why isn't the HL worth $35K?
2) A MDX touring package IS NOT comparable to a loaded HL... the MDX blows it away. The HL doesn't have memory for the seats + mirrors, electrochromic mirrors, programmable LCD systems display, and other stuff.
3) A base MDX at a MSRP price of $34,370 is a fairer comparison. But you are getting on the MDX a bigger engine, 5-speed transmission, rear HVAC ducts, steering wheel mounted radio controls, full floor console, etc. I've now seen both vehicles personally and the fit, finish and quality of materials on the MDX is better. Doesn't mean the HL is bad, MDX is just better. Plus you get Acura 4 year warranty and service for this price.
If the MDX was 1/2 foot skinnier, I might have bought it over the RX. It actually won't fit in my driveway.
TC
not the HL. What I said was: The MDX is better price-wise than the HL. If you asked
me, as long as general public is willing to pay for the MSRP, then the vehicle is
worth the MSRP (market demand vs supply). Therefore both MDX and HL are worth the MSRP. But if I had to buy now, I would pick the MDX over the HL
but that's a lot of money for me. So, again, I am willing to wait out 6 months to pick up
a HL FWD V6, not limited, with few common options for around 26-27K. Since you're considered an insider, do you think that figure is reasonable. Appreciate your comments (and
enjoy Diane's straight info/opinion too). Thanks.
The quality of materials in the HL are good and typical of any other Japanese auto. I speak from experience with this example: We lease a '97 Nissan PF, we bought a '99 Pontiac Grand Am. I got the Grand Am because you got a lot of car for the money (cruise, steering wheel radio controls, V6, Traction control, roomy) and there was a great interest rate. THe car is serving us well, but... it just "feels" cheap. The cruise control switches are flimsy when compared to a Nissan, Honda or Toyota. Other switches aren't "firm". You can see the "seam" in the plastic armrest from the mold. The dashboard vinyl/plastic looks/feels "cheaper" than my PF.
What I'm saying in a roundabout way is that the HL materials are of typical good quality found in most Japanese cars. But it's not meant to be a "luxury class" vehicle. The RX is and I appreciate the differences. Am I willing to pay extra just for "better leather"? Hell no, but like I said previous messages, there are amenities and systems on the RX that you can't get on a HL that I personally want.
It's all about choice. But if given a choice between a fully loaded HL and a "base" MDX, I'll take the MDX.
TC
In the same way, again whether Toyota/Lexus wants to admit it or not, Acura is an upscale/higher-end vehicle. There are advantages that the Acura name brings to the table in the same way the Lexus name does. Feature for feature, name for name, dollar for dollar, I believe that MDX offers substantially more than Highlander does.
As has been pointed out frequently before, an AWD V6 Limited w/ Leather, side-airbags, moon-roof, roof-rack, heated seats, CD changer, would MSRP at $33805. If such a vehicle could be configured this way without too much difficulty. The base MDX with all this and MORE has an MSRP of $34850.
So as documented as well as I know how an MDX provides a better deal (more features, larger vehicle, more passenger/cargo options, better name, better warranty, etc) than a fully loaded Highlander at this time.