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Comments
It really do look like the RX300, both have the same shifter positions. But I like the Lexus look a little better.
We also sat in the MDX. Nice and good at for part, but there is a problem. The 2 rear seats are all but no use for a teenager up. I tried to sit there, and I'm not a tall man (5'9"), and I was packed in like a tuna fish. It really more meant as a 5-seater.
Of course, tires make a BIG difference. I've never owned a FWD car with snow's since we live in southern MA. Put snow's on my wife's Saab 9-3 this winter. The thing claws up hills. Amazing. Now all we need is more snow. I'm sure for those of you living in winter climates, a set of snows would make the Highlander one heck of snow vehicle.
As for comparisons with the RX, the Highlander is 4" longer and as a result does seem to have a bit more cargo space. Also, the look is different. It gives consumers more choices. I love how people who justify an RX see memory and heated seats as an absolute necessity. It's amazing how we can't do without these things once we've had them. I remember my vinyl bench seats on my parents station wagon with the 8 track player. Life is good these days!
Curiously, I visited a local dealer and spoke to the Sales Manager. He was adamant that the Highlander was $30k loaded with limited package and leather. I kept questioning, with AWD. Yes, With V-6, yes. I asked "I thought they topped out at $35k". Oh, no was the response. Something tells me he was looking at invoice, not MSRP. At invoice, I'll take one.
I think they should have offered the MDX as a 5 seater. It would have left more cargo space without the third row seat. Of course, that complicates things, something Honda hates. Don't blame them.
By the way an MDX with the 3rd seat folded flat (so you still have them when you get where you are going) has MORE cargo room than my Expedition has with its 3rd seat tilted forward and secured with the stow-away (so you still have your 3rd seat when you get there). MDX has class leading cargo room.
Is anybody here also considering the new Subaru Outback H-6 LL Bean or VDC models? I know these are station wagons, as opposed to an SUV, but many of the features and prices are quite comparable. The LL Bean is around $29K, and the VDC is around $32K.
Bob
-Dianne
dianne@earthlink.net
As for the Subaru, it's a nice vehicle, but that's a big premium over 4 cyl Outbacks. Even the V-6 Highlander Toyota is only $1,500 more than the 4 cyl version. Why not add the VW Passat 4Motion Wagon to the list too? Does the Highlander offer more cargo room than either wagon? I think it might.
The H-6 Subaru Outback is priced very close to the V6 AWD Highlander. I'd be pretty certain that the H-4 Outback is priced pretty close to a 4-cylinder AWD Highlander, if that configuration is available.
As for refinement, Subarus are very close to Toyotas and Hondas. I've owned Hondas for years, and now own two Subarus, and am extremely satisfied.
Bob
My experience with the MDX is a over all positivie one. While not pretty, it's not bad looking. Seems like very nicely priced. But I find the 2 rear seats are almost added as an after thought. There simply isn't enough room for people teenage or older. My 5'9 body was crunch together, with my knees jammed into the back of the middle seat. There is no way you can get comfortable back there. And with the back seats up, there the cargo room is next to 0, unlike the large spacious cargo room if the seats are down. So it's only possible to carry 7 people for VERY short trips (seat will kill you quickly, besides, you can't carry enough stuff or a long trip).
I think it serves as a good, or even great, 5-seat SUV; but a poor, or even bad, 7 seat SUV. If getting 7/8 seat capacilty is little more than just after thought, you will want to get a bigger SUV than the MDX.
MDX is still a good SUV. But people are fooling you if they say it will serve as a 7 seater well. Just my 2 cents from my experience at the autoshow.
Smoooooth operator, this Highlander. I sat in the back seat while my wife drove the re and I around.
Walk around -- This was a Sundown Red Pearl edition. There are brown tones in the Red, making the shade more red/brown/tannin than burgundy. Car was shod with Goodyear rubber 225 16" wheels. The car, while compact in length, still presents itself as a substantial vehicle, especially from the front, with the bumper assembly protruding & thrusting upward. There appears to be a skid plate in the front. Tailgate access is simple lift back, low entry easy access. Cargo space seems ample, however the wheel wells do cut into the width a bit. A removable cover was in place. A 12v cig.power outlet was in place, would love to see a regular plug socket there (a la Avalon).
The V6 looks very neat and tidy, seems to sit a little lower in the bay, which should translate into a lower center of gravity and better stability. Dipstick is readily at hand.
Interior...
Ivory/beige cloth seats have a sort of herringbone/twill monochrome pattern, with bolsters & backs in a standard brushed finish. Understated, no issues. Easy entry to all seats, and the back seats have a 3 position recline feature (in addition to folding flat with a single easy release). Back seat legroom was substantial, and there is room to slide your shoe under the front seat if needed. Plenty of headroom in back, too. Cupholders in the rear doors had room for both a cup and a bottle.
Front seat was power, there is a dead petal for the left foot. Visibility was good, mirrors very large. Ergos are all very good, nice sized wheel (not too large, not too thin), straightforward AC & stereo (this was the standard radio w/ Cassette and CD). Cup-holders are not in the dash or in a normal spot, they are down low on the right side of the drivers seat - both, and they fold outward. Big, but a little low and off-target for my normal cup of coffee in the AM. Not a deal killer but a little odd. I liked the auto-transmission pod and the walk-thru aisle -- actually used it when it was my turn to drive after sitting in the back. I suppose for those with kids it may be easier, esp. with a child seat in the rear center, to tend to the needs of the little prince with a clear aisle. You can always buy a nice basket or put a little cooler in there if it's important to have storage there.
The dashboard trim was a grey plastic that is supposed to look, I guess, like hammered pewter or something. I didn't like it, personally. I would prefer wood trim, but I don't think I can get it without having to sign up for the Ltd package in toto.
Driving...
The V6, as expected, is one of the best in the business. Smooth power delivery and acceleration. This car oops, SUV, has great road manners. It's very quiet, has great visibility, has a tidy turning radius, and handles bumps very easily. I stomped on the brakes and the ABS and the extra Brake Force system kicked in, bringing everything down to a controlled (if audibly unnerving) stop. I couldn't judge whether the distance was particularly short, but it didn't seem to be an overly long stopping distance.
I will look forward to driving the 4cyl to see what the drop-off is. The 6 is very sweet. I bet the 4 will not be too bad, and it runs on regular gas and gets 20% better mileage. That translates into over $300 per year in savings at 15k miles per year.
Pricing...
This will be the problem for me. This dealer, in TX, said all his allocation will come from the Gulf States Port in Houston, and they add lots of extras at the port. On this vehicle, there were $1,500 worth of extras, including side running bars ($440), a replacement mirror with a compass/thermometer ($350), $200 for some inscrutable glass etching/ltd warranty (aka profit), and the usual mats & nets.
The other model in stock, also a V6, did not have a limited package but did have leather -- it was a grey perforated leather, which strikes me as odd, I had expected only Ivory/beige. It didn't look very good, so I wonder if this was not from Japan. It also had it's own set of "Port extras", and it priced out at $32,000 MSRP, and again, it did not have a Limited package or a sunroof.
I will probably have to special order what we want so I can avoid the $1500 Port fleecing, and I don't know that I will have any negotiating power at that point.
Loved the vehicle, would like to test the 4cyl, and if we like its road manners, would buy a two-wheel drive Vintage Gold one with Airbags, roof rack, Mudguards and the Quick Order package (privacy glass, keyless entry and the tonneau cover). That would price out at roughly $25k MSRP. Having to buy a 6 would not be the end of the world, it's such a nice engine.
It's not a question of money per se - we can afford what we want to buy. I just know what we want, but I am not particularly looking forward to the purchasing experience and the games played between the Port and the dealers, and the time involved.
Toyota will sell many of these as delivered, so I won't be a priority.
redirector@aol.com
Toyota.com, and use the 'popular combination' option, I get a total of $34750... maybe not $35000, but darn close...
And again I ask if you go above the $30 mark why not buy a '99 Lexus RX with all the perks of the Lexus pre-owned program? The Highlander looks OK but its nothing near the looker the Lexus RX is.
I actually had the same impression. I really liked everything with the MDX (price, option package, mpg, handling, etc.) but, again, while not bad looking, I did not really find it pretty (IMO).
Somebody posted a while back that while everybody seems to agree that the 3rd seat is tight for teens and up, the following scenario is what it is supposedly aimed for:
A family of 4 or 5 goes on a long trip to visit relatives. Since they will be all stuffed with luggage, coolers, etc., the third seat will be folded and hidden to maximize cargo space. They get to the relatives' place, unload the junk, and have 2-3 people (hopefully kids)join them in local trips.
While Acura/Honda will never be able to convince me that they made an SUV that REALLY seats 7, I think the above scenario is logical, reasonable, and has large enough a niche.
If Toyota puts even an optional third seat on the Highlander (and of course with the safety features that come with the seats), I think there will be enough people to be attracted to it. Of, course, it would compete with the Sienna....
I looked at the Highlander today and I actually found it much nicer in person, and when the dust settles down, it will probably be competetively priced.
and now I see the gouging has started and people
are paying.Subaru is the only crossover vehicle
with heavy discounts but the quality is not there.
I have only owned one Toyota and it had a cold
start problem fixed under warranty.I now have
an Explorer which will be history soon because
I want a quality 4 door wagon which limits the selection unless you want to spend over $30K.The worse thing about my Explorer is depreciation.
It has been trouble free for 34K miles,knock on wood.
Is a comparably equipped MDX worth $2500 more than a $35,000 Highlander - obviously. What's the price difference between a Highlander and a comparably equipped new RX300? I would guess that it's a lot more than $2500. The Highlander may look properly priced compared to an RX300 but the MDX is definately worth thousands more than a Toyota.
Toyotas are excellent products, but don't write off Subarus. They're excellent products too.
Bob
The third-row seat in the MDX is best left for kids or small adults. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to come up with scenarios where the seat, even if small, is useful. We pick up our nephews along with our son -- deploy one half of the third-row seat. You have three kids but have a longer piece of cargo -- fold down half of the third-row seat, and part of the second-row. You have two kids and grandma and grandpa come along for dinner -- put one or two of the kids in the back row. If you need to carry 7 adults at once -- buy a minivan or a full-sized SUV.
While Acura could have made even more cargo room by leaving the folded-down third-row seat out, the vehicle as-is has one of the most capacious, useable cargo areas (in the mid-sized class) behind the second-row seats with the third-row folded. Car & Driver used their "beer case" test to measure practical, safe cargo capacity, besides the usual cubic foot measurements and the MDX handily beat out a number of other SUV's.
That extra "utility" is a selling point -- not to everyone, agreed, but it's definitely useful for some buyers.
Assume the prospective buyer in this case is female, does NOT want leather, sunroof, or heated seats, but does want power windows/doors and remote keyless entry, and could take or leave other comfort/convenience options. Usable cargo space is desirable. No children. Prefers being up high while driving, without having to do a lot of climbing to get in. Also prefers boxy looking to rounded, curvy exterior styling. No off roading. To put it in context, she loves her 87 Jeep Cherokee Laredo 4x4, which has been dying a slow death but is not yet dead; however, she did not like the 2001 JC on a test drive (too noisy, cheap looking interior), knows DC is abandoning the model, and may prefer something a little bigger (but certainly not so big as the Sequoia).
I'm not sure whether this makes things clearer or more confusing, but I appreciate any insights.
Overloading an SUV dramatically increases its likelihood to roll over in an accident. It's not inconceivable that a number of RX's out there may be overloaded.
We have, over in the Subaru forum area, a regular participant from Australia (who owns an Australian Outback), and who has said that in "rural" Australia—the real outback, Subarus are the third most popular vehicle, just behind Land Cruisers and Holden utilities. To me, that says a lot about a vehicle, and how it's regarded in a rugged environment.
Bob
To cattmandu, you express "something" odd there re: my saying that the $35000 pricetag on the MSRP is going to be the exception to the rule. I don't get your point.
I have said, and will say again, that the majority of MY 4WDs have what's considered to be a very popular set of options at a $32000 pricetag. The "excess" of options, ie. Limited (LL) package, leather, and perhaps things like VSC are in my area "excessive" and rare cars right now. They aren't needing that sort of rig here, so consequently, virtually every one of my 4WD V6's are stickering for $31000-$32000.
I have no gulf-state addons, no "crap" packages, and no ones pockets to line with excessive features offered at a PORT facility.
The $35000 4WD Highlander will be the exception, not the *rule* here. That won't be a common find in SoCal. And, the 4WDs are not a huge seller for us here so that's the one I deal best on! Lucky for those hearing "pay sticker or get outta here" lately. I have emails out my ears with stories like that across the USA!
-Di
With all due respect, I have to disagree with you regarding the Highlander as being more car-like than the Outback. The Outback is a car. The Highlander isn't, it's an SUV-hybrid. The Outback is much lower, and handles much more like a sporty car than I would think a much taller vehicle like the Highlander would. But again, since I haven't driven a Highlander, I'm just speculating. However, logic is on my side.
I'm not sure I know what you mean by being centered?? I will grant you, however, the Highlander is roomier than an Outback. It may(?) be a better buy, depending on your priorities than an H-6 Outback, but it's not a better buy than an H-4 Outback.
Bob
Because everyone knows that within several months, the Highlander is going to be discounted a couple of thousand or so in many markets.
You asked ;-)
We purchased the V6 AWD Limited with leather and 6-Disk CD. Paid $33505. We wanted but did not get the VSC and Side Airbags. The HL with those options in stock was white, which I love but my wife hates. So, ours is gold. Those options would have cost $1300 more. Dan threw in all weather floor mats in for free.
Things we like:
The inside looks and feels refined and luxurious. Not MDX or RS 300 level, but not far from it.
The performance of the engine is great; comparable to the PF and Ford/Mazda Escape/Tribute, much better than Santa Fe and RAV4, which we test-drove today just to make sure that we did not want them.
Rear seats are adjustable in the back, which really helps tall people. The seats are comfortable for both of us. I am 6'3" and heavy, and my wife is 6'0" with long legs. The front seats are of course, much better, with decent legroom for both of us.
Things we don't like:
No trip computer for est. mileage left on fuel, and NO (yes, I am anal on this) COMPASS.
No center console. Where I am going to put my cell phone I do not know yet. My sales guy is looking into getting us a price for one.
No audio or cruise controls on steering wheel.
The security horn/speaker very soft and difficult to hear. I have a high frequency hearing loss, and I can barley here the tiny speaker or horn beeping when the doors are unlocked, or more importantly, when you a door is not closed properly, which we learned tonight in our QUIET garage. Even my wife with perfect hearing thought it was hard to hear. I liked my Acura much better, which I could set not to beep at all, except when it could not lock properly, in which case the horns honked. For the most part, these are fairly minor things.
Overall, this is the best compromise that we could find after the MDX. The Escape/Tribute have five recalls already and look/feel cheep inside, RAV4 and others in its class too are small. American SUV's are gas guzzling or are (OHV engines) outdated. The Santa Fe is built by Hyundai, (I once owned an Excel, and since vowed never buy Korean ANYTHING) The 4 Runner is too pricey for what you get and not as much room or power either!
The other SUV which we seriously considered was the 2001 Pathfinder. However, the deciding factor was 3-4 more MPG, rear seat (33 vs. 36) legroom, warranty, breaking distance, lower octane fuel requirements, and looks. Ironically, the price on a fully loaded PF LE would have been about the same or less than the HL, due to discounts. If I had a need for more serious off road use or towing, then the PF would be the best choice. In any case, we are pleased with our purchased. The most difficult thing is driving 55 on the area interstates without getting rammed from behind during the break-in period.
Panzer
BTW, kudos to Edmunds for already having pricing on the HL. No other web site has them yet. Of course, it will not help you if you have to buy MSRP, but it will help you keep the dealer honest and know what to expec
Just by observation, the Highlander seems a tad longer for cargo space. There's no center console, or a center armrest in the back seat. The Highlander is basically the SAME vehicle but $6000 cheaper.
When my lease is up a year and a half from now, you bet I'll consider the Highlander before leasing another RX. A Nav? I don't need no stinkin' Nav! :-) The Lexus service would be the most missed!
The MDX and Highlander will be getting artificially high prices until the excitement
wears off...the model I saw(and would want) at the Show(with leather, upgraded audio, AWD, but no VSC) stickered at 34,500.00(27-290000??? Sure)Until dealers can deal down from there, why bother?"
The markup is quite hefty on these (no wonder the dealers are enthusiastic....), so there is definitely a heck of a lot of room downward.
Honda is a relatively small company in the universe of automobile companies. Toyota, on the other hand, is very large. It's only a matter of time before Honda is bought out or becomes partly owned by someone like DC.
On the other hand, it's a great place to put a briefcase or a pocketbook or both.
You can get the Runner heavily discounted but I think in your situation, you'd be better off in the Highlander.
Don't get me wrong I think all three cars, RX, MDX, HL, are great for their respective niches. It just sounded like to me that an RX would fit you better. I could be wrong.
TC
I know many other car companys would love to have Honda as part of their product portfolio. I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening, however. If anything, Honda may buy some other company, but not the other way around.
Bob
The RX 300 was just outside what we were willing to pay. I believe that it would have been about $3000 more (PK package option) similarly equipped, assuming that the dealer will deal. Also, the HL is wider and longer, giving us a little more room. Very important for our mix boxer/linebacker dog. Still, the RX 300 is an excellent SUV, and the treatment at the Lexus dealers is an example to the rest of luxury auto (hint --> Acura) industry of how it should be done. We considered a used RX 300 briefly, but when we drove into the dealership and the truck was there unloading the new HL's, well that was the end of that. Right now I am wondering if a console for the RX would install into my HL. That might just work nicely.
Panzer
When I went to see the HL yesterday, I also saw a $42K 4Runner LTD. I wondered who would buy it, since a few steps away a $44K Seq Ltd was also sitting. Sometimes, it's hard to figure out what people really want. I'm glad there are enough choices, even for the weird ones.
for the AL and tried to justify for its MSRP. I also understand that you are working
for a Toyota dealer. But there is no question about the MDX is better, engineering-
wise and price-wise, considering both are selling at or above MSRP. My prediction
is that the He's price will drop to its "right" place in future but the MDX will very much
stay at MSRP. (Odessy like). Tell me which Toyotas are not discounted now!! except
for the new Sequoia and Rav4, every thing else is few thousand dollars off. Regarding
the 4Runner as AL, I think the AL is more expensive with a heavy discount on the
4Runner. I was offered a 4Runner SR5 with comparable equipment with the AL for
less than 28.5K. I would have to pay thousands more for the HL now. Not saying that the HL is a bad car or overpriced; but I am willing
to wait for a while for the hoopla to die down before I look at the HL again. Personally
I don't like the 4Runner much for its bumpy rides and too narrow body...Will buy a HL
in 6 to 12 months with some discounts, not MSRP with ripped-off ad-ons...
You and a few others have made statement about relative values but provide no evidence to back it up. I'll ask again, if an MDX is worth $37K (I think that is what they are going for with typical equipment comparable to a FULLY loaded HL) and the back seat is nearly unuseable, why isn't the HL worth $35K?
2) A MDX touring package IS NOT comparable to a loaded HL... the MDX blows it away. The HL doesn't have memory for the seats + mirrors, electrochromic mirrors, programmable LCD systems display, and other stuff.
3) A base MDX at a MSRP price of $34,370 is a fairer comparison. But you are getting on the MDX a bigger engine, 5-speed transmission, rear HVAC ducts, steering wheel mounted radio controls, full floor console, etc. I've now seen both vehicles personally and the fit, finish and quality of materials on the MDX is better. Doesn't mean the HL is bad, MDX is just better. Plus you get Acura 4 year warranty and service for this price.
If the MDX was 1/2 foot skinnier, I might have bought it over the RX. It actually won't fit in my driveway.
TC
not the HL. What I said was: The MDX is better price-wise than the HL. If you asked
me, as long as general public is willing to pay for the MSRP, then the vehicle is
worth the MSRP (market demand vs supply). Therefore both MDX and HL are worth the MSRP. But if I had to buy now, I would pick the MDX over the HL
but that's a lot of money for me. So, again, I am willing to wait out 6 months to pick up
a HL FWD V6, not limited, with few common options for around 26-27K. Since you're considered an insider, do you think that figure is reasonable. Appreciate your comments (and
enjoy Diane's straight info/opinion too). Thanks.
The quality of materials in the HL are good and typical of any other Japanese auto. I speak from experience with this example: We lease a '97 Nissan PF, we bought a '99 Pontiac Grand Am. I got the Grand Am because you got a lot of car for the money (cruise, steering wheel radio controls, V6, Traction control, roomy) and there was a great interest rate. THe car is serving us well, but... it just "feels" cheap. The cruise control switches are flimsy when compared to a Nissan, Honda or Toyota. Other switches aren't "firm". You can see the "seam" in the plastic armrest from the mold. The dashboard vinyl/plastic looks/feels "cheaper" than my PF.
What I'm saying in a roundabout way is that the HL materials are of typical good quality found in most Japanese cars. But it's not meant to be a "luxury class" vehicle. The RX is and I appreciate the differences. Am I willing to pay extra just for "better leather"? Hell no, but like I said previous messages, there are amenities and systems on the RX that you can't get on a HL that I personally want.
It's all about choice. But if given a choice between a fully loaded HL and a "base" MDX, I'll take the MDX.
TC
In the same way, again whether Toyota/Lexus wants to admit it or not, Acura is an upscale/higher-end vehicle. There are advantages that the Acura name brings to the table in the same way the Lexus name does. Feature for feature, name for name, dollar for dollar, I believe that MDX offers substantially more than Highlander does.
As has been pointed out frequently before, an AWD V6 Limited w/ Leather, side-airbags, moon-roof, roof-rack, heated seats, CD changer, would MSRP at $33805. If such a vehicle could be configured this way without too much difficulty. The base MDX with all this and MORE has an MSRP of $34850.
So as documented as well as I know how an MDX provides a better deal (more features, larger vehicle, more passenger/cargo options, better name, better warranty, etc) than a fully loaded Highlander at this time.