I have a 95 defender so not exactly the same vehicle but I think it is the same motor, drivetrain, etc.. as your 94 Disco. Anyway at 122,000 miles this is what I have spent on repairs since I bought it at 54,000 miles. at around 100,000 miles the slave cylinder went out on my clutch(5-speed manual)about $450, then at around 105,000 there is an emissions light that comes on, to do that service was around $250. I just had new rotors and pads at 120,000 miles $1,200. As you can see these are all wear items and not broken items. I have also spent a bunch of other money on preventive maintenance as I am a nut about changing fluids on a regular and premature basis. For instance I just had the radiator removed and cored out for a peice of mind thing and not because it was overheating or anything. The shop found out it was about 30% blocked with crud though. I also have minimal electronic stuff and have to use my arms the old fashioned way to open the windows so I can't comment on things like sunroofs, fancy sound systems, rear window defrosters and such things that are found in a disco.
Thank you for that run-down of expenses. You've just pretty much convinced me to go ahead and go for an old Discovery for sure (well, you and Nanuq). Those are perfectly acceptable kinds of expenses. ("Well, the metal eventually wore out" is pretty hard to argue against.)
Nanuq,
Reading your post made me really hope it works out with this Disco I mentioned. (Agh, the suspense...) And of all of us here I suppose you have the most license to order the "Icelandic Blue" paint, given location and all.
Ahhhhhhh, that sounds nice but my personal favorite is silver. You see, when you get a little too close to that rock offroad, or you gouge the truck with the bike handlebars or the skis fall over and scrape it... the aluminum matches the silver quite nicely!
In anticipation of typical repair costs, etc. ... if you were going to drive about 15,000 miles a year and were buying an older Discovery, what's the top mileage you'd consider buying a vehicle at for practical purposes?
A 97 with relatively high mileage... well-kept but over 100k... would allow easier financing (because of the year being recent enough for regular bank financing) and there are some quite low prices out there.
An older one with 80k miles (60k would be lovely but costs a lot more)... would mean paying outright most likely (which could be done), and the buy prices aren't of course quite as low.
I'd like to get a Discovery II but the on-road handling (?) and lack of power turned me off until this year. I live in New England but outside Rt 495. While the Disco would be used on-road it would be contending with the snow, slush, potholes, and crap that we endure for 6 months a year. Now the 2003 with the 4.6 and revised suspension settings has caught my eye. Should I wait a year and pick up a new or slightly used 2003 at a better price as the new style 2005 comes out? (Will there even be a 2004?) Or just wait until mid-04 and buy a new 2005 with presumably better on-road handling? (Admit it, a Disco II isn't even a Jeep Grand Cherokee changing a lane at 70-75 mph on an interstate. A Disco with ACE handles no better in terms of skid pad g's it will pull: it just has less body roll.)
The May 03 issue of Automobile Magazine (Brock Yates of Car and Driver calls it Automobile, I think) has a photo on Page 49 of a disguised 2005 Disconvery. The new model will still be body on frame but with independent suspension rather than the solid axles. Apparently the 4.6 Buick engine will go away and be replaced by a Jag sourced 4.2 liter DOHC V8 with a 3.0 liter V6 also available. Does anyone have any more info?
Judging by past history on other car lines have new models accelerated the depreciation on the "old" style? (For example is the resale value on a 2002 Expediton drop significantly less than it normally would have because of the new style 2003? Is the Saab 9-3 resale--I know its tough to talk about Saab resale with a straight face-- lower now than what it would normally be with the new style 9-3?)
What's my best move? Wait until I both the 2003/4 and the new style 2005 are side by side?
I too have come to this crossroad and have opted to wait a few more months, before I buy the 03. From the picture's I've seen posted on this message board before, the new 05 will look completely like a Ford Explorer, and in my opinion, will actually improve the resale value of the Disco because of the new generic shape. Anyway, here's an article posted on the message board before and a picture on the 05:
I haven't seen the vehicle yet, but I can assure you it will not look like an Explorer. Ford is not in the habit of homogonizing it's PAG vehicles. The new Jaguar XJ is a good example of this practice. The first picture you linked to is nothing more than early production testing of the rolling chassis. They just put an Explorer body on the frame to conceal what it was. The second shot posted I can more readily believe is a heavily disguised prototype.
Well, it's been some time since I posted anything! I just want to congratulate all the new Discovery people and tell them welcome. Also, good to see that some of the "old guys" are still here too.
I'm now at 35,000 miles with my 00 DiscoII - and it's still perfecto - no complaints, no problems, zip. I have three other vehicles (Toyota, Mercedes, and Nissan) and the Disco is the best of all - and the most pleasurable to drive. I can't explain it - I just love that thing!!
Have had some problems though with the Michelin tires - just had another flat yesterday while rock-hopping - had to do a trail fix real fast by plugging the hole. I've had my Toyota 4x4 off-road for years, and never had a flat (same terrain) with the Bridgestone Dueler A/T's. The Michies pop a hole almost every time. I want to keep that "unique" square block tread pattern that has been a Disco trademark for so long - any suggestions from you guys? I'm running stock 255-16's, and 95% is on-road driving.
Its about that time. 24,000 miles and a squeak up front when the brakes are applied.Reading prior posts,the pad replacement on the D11 seems to be quite straight forward. The information supplied by the members is incredible and very helpful for a first time D11 owner. As for the brake pads, where is a good place to buy replacement pads at a reasonable price.I have checked around the usual auto parts places ( PeP Boys, AID Auto, Auto Barn, Auto Zone etc ) and I was amazed how many did not carry these pads. I live in the Long Island , New York area. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, srthom13
For replacement pads, check out the Atlantic British site at roverparts.com. They are fairly reasonably priced and much lower than the dealer. I checked all over town and only one parts store, Auto Zone, had front pads available by order. They could not order the rear pads as they were not available.
Oh dear. What is the minimum you would do in preparation to buy an older Discovery with about 75,000 miles on it?
Assuming it sounded and handled absolutely fine, and had a plausibly safe history?
(It looks like I'll be able to see maintenance records on it, and a recent smog. If they reasonably jive with the recommended Land Rover maintenance schedule, how set would you be on having an engine compression test and all that?)
Private party that sounds reputable, not a used dealer. Second owner but one that did a lot of research before buying (from a couple in a high-end, sedate area of town), who due to plausible circumstances wound up not needing the vehicle and has newer nice ones in their driveway.
Of several Discos I've driven, it drives the most soundly. Newish tires too.
I don't think a compression test is necessary. Is there oily black residue in the tailpipe? Does it puff a cloud when you start it from cold? If not, the rings and valve stem seals are fine. Check the coolant for oily specks floating around and check the oil for the "sweet" coolant smell. At 75k the engine is well broken in but nowhere near its lifetime limit.
Get beneath it and give the driveshafts a good twist. Is there a horrible amount of play with a clank? There WILL be a surprising amount but it should "thud" not "clank". Check the rotoflex coupler (at the aft end of the aft driveshaft) for cracks and breaks. Check the swivel seals for leaks. Sniff the reservoir for power steering fluid, it should have bright red fresh ATF. Check the brake fluid reservoir... is it dark fluid or bright? Look at fasteners beneath the bonnet (grin) are they filthy or clean? Has it been recently or regularly worked on? Check inside the front wheels for black tarry residue... the axle seals in the swivel housings might be weeping out thru the dust caps at the halfshaft outer ends. Check for rust at the bottom aft corners of the rear seat door openings. Likewise the rear hatch hinges. Check for water leaks around the alpine windows and at the top outer corners of the windscreen. Feel the rear mat... is it DRY or is it cold (wet) at all? Check actuation of diff lock and low range... is it smooth or is the linkage seized (common)? How is the tire wear? Any cupping at the front? Are the rotors gouged? How much pad is left? Are the caliper bolts clean (recent work)? Good steering damper? Drive it over some angled bumps (like RR tracks) at 52mph with hands barely on the wheel and see if it oscillates. Check ALL the electrical functions, window openers, rear windows, check air conditioner operation for musty smell. Last check: is the jack and chock there? If so, buy her and take her home! If she passes this, she's a keeper at this mileage.
I just got a 2001 SE yesterday; I took over the lease from someone who had a lot of cars and really didn't want/need it anymore. It will be 2 years old in June and looks absolutely brand new, only 16,900 miles. The lease is for 17 more months and, if I like, I will consider buying it @ the end. My last vehicle was a 1987 Jeep Cherokee so, needless to say, this is a huge change!! Two questions: 1. I read over the manual; it seemed to say that once you started driving and reach about 4 miles per hour, the doors should lock automatically. Mine don't do this. Does anyone know if this is perhaps an option I don't have? 2. The manual also says that when you unlock the vehicle using the remote, the first time you click the unlock button with the key, only the driver's door should unlock. The second click should unlock all of the doors. On my truck, all of the doors unlock with the first click. Again, am I misreading the manual or reading about an option that isn't on my SE? Thank you, any advice would help. Otherwise I will call the dealer. Also, any misc. tips would help, as this is my first Land Rover.
The 2 features you refer to (doors locking when mobile and doors unlocking when press key button) are "variable". What I mean is there are several setting options that can be chosen and I believe the standard factory settings vary from country to country. I dont think you can vary these particular settings yourself but your dealer should be able to very easily using their computer plug in electronics. Hope you enjoy your new motor ! Whilst writing can I take exception with the comment on post 2807 about on road handling. With ACE fitted I find the DII has brilliant road holding - you can shuffle her through corners faster and better than many a "sporty saloon". OK so the ride can be a bit hard at times and the law of physics cannot be overcome totally, but I would say she corners as well and as fast as any other current SUV (and I have personnaly run a new Range Rover and a new X5 for extended periods).
Smarticus writes well about the cornering ability of DII when fitted with ACE. Sorry, when put to the empirical test (e. g., a skid pad), the data as reported by the buff books don't support his claim. The Disco's cornering ability as measured by the fraction of G force it will pull is always the lowest in any comparo test I've seen in Car and Driver, Road & Track, Automobile, Autoweek, etc. Additionally, the comments in the magazine text accompanying the skid pad test data usually refer to the unwillingness of the Disco to change direction once the chassis is on set on a course.
The Disco is many things but it ain't made to be a flung around corners, do rush hour lane changes on Boston's Storrow Drive, or quickly move over three lanes into the passing lane for a left exit off I 95 (yes, we have left exits off Interstates here in the east).
Anybody willing to predict if the current Disco II resale will go up or down once the new body style appears? Will the 2003's be el cheapo? Will there even be a 2004? The increase in wheel base (up to 110 or 115" ?) is huge.
Greetings all it has been a while since I have last posted anything, but I like to say my 01 is running fine. However I did have a slight scare one night when I pulled into my local fast food establishment. Srthom13, I to heard knocking sounds coming from my engine. The next day I called my local dealership (Marin Land Rover) and was asked the basic questions concerning my truck.I brought my truck in for servicing and found out my truck needed new "Rockers". They informed me that the repair could be completed in 4-5 hours and there would be no cost to me. The service was completed as they stated and I had my truck back that same day minus the knocking. Since then I have not had anymore problems (Knock on wood). Srthom 13, I don't know where you are located, but if you are in the S.F.bay Area, may I suggest Marin Land Rover. Ask for "Fred" in service. Maybe he can help you. My 2 cents... By the way I only have 16k on her. I don't take her out much..You know Gas prices and all...
rj17, thanks for the come back and info. As per your situation, did you have that knock prior to that one night and how long did the knocking last?How many rocker arms did the dealership replace and did you get an explanation why it happen ? 16k, that is not many miles at all, is gas that bad in SF. Here on Long Island premiun is going for $1.96. By the way, how is the rest of the truck? srthom13
I haven't a clue what "the fraction of G force it will pull" means. However as someone who drives many cars (both my own and through work) during the week and I often drive my wife's DII at weekends, I know what the real life cornering ability of a DII actually is. In practice on twisty country roads I bet a DII could pretty much keep up with virtually any other car I have driven. The extra height (and hence forward visibility) is a big asset that goes some way to making up for the extra weight, the extra traction is a massive help on wet roads compared to rear wheel drive German cars and the car can genuinely be "hustled" through corners. I grant you that it is not a great idea to change your mind about the right line half way around a sweeping bend, but other than that I would happily choose the Disco to get me there with more smiles per mile than virtually any other car. By the way the engine in our DII is a 2.5 litre 5 cylinder diesel with an uprated engine managment chip and intercooler. Faster than a V8 and doing 30 miles per gallon - go figure ...
Can anyone help me with a weird problem? I have a 2001 DII that will not accept more than 50 cents worth of fuel before the pump handle clicks off. It takes a long time to fill up the car when you have to hold the handle and resume pumping every 50 cents worth of gas. Also, the gauge in the dash doesn't always read FULL. It reads FULL right after pumping but then reads 3/4 if I turn off the car and restart it. Any ideas? The dealer says they don't know what is wrong. They checked the tank and filler neck but found no defects. I'm tired of washing spilled gasoline off the car after each fillup. Any help would be great. Thanks.
Srthom 13 in hearing the knocking sound I can't really say how long it was there. Music,kids and a wife; who knows. It was one of those things when I pulled up to the drive-thru window and heard that sound I knew something was not right. I didn't have any loss of power and no "idiot" lights came on. The truck continued to run fine. I just had that annoying ticking sound. As for the "Rockers", they replaced all of them. I never got a clear reason as to was wrong with them,only that they would fix the problem. We don't used the truck that much. It's primarily our "Snow Buggy", but that's changing. As far as the gas prices out here $2.17-$2.30 depending on where u go. It is going down (Not fast enough). The rest of the truck is great...I just had my DVD monitors installed and its great. 1-7" display in front and a 9" drop down display in the rear. The kids are in heaven and the wife and I are slowly regaining our sanity. We have the SE7.
I experience a slight knocking /ticking noise upon start-up and warm-up period but it tends to go away once the car is warmed sufficiently. It has been there since new but has never affected performance. Mileage is horrible, although I knew that when I bought the car. Could that ticking noise be the lifters? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
Over the last 5 years my '96 has done that once in awhile. Sometimes it's really annoying and lasts a couple days and then goes away. I haven't heard it now for about a year.
It seems to be related to synthetic oils in my case... perhaps they're more active as detergents and put contaminants in the oil, which stick the lifters a little? Regardless, it has never caused any damage and my truck runs like a scalded cat.
I'd recommend an engine oil/filter change, drive it a hundred miles (lots of high speed highway) and then change oil/filter again. See if that flushes the lifters. Do it a couple times... keep the oil REALLY fresh in these engines and they seem to thrive on it.
I've read that ticking lifters are an indication in an older Rover that the oil has been neglected and it's something to watch for when buying used. But for a 16k mile engine you may only have some flecks of material wearing off from the newly machined engine internals and they're slowly being flushed with oil changes? Come to think of it, I had the most ticking the first 2 or 3 years... And now at 80k miles my engine is finally well broken-in and doesn't tick anymore.
I recommend 10-30w engine oil, and the WIX or Purolator Premium filter that's the numeric equivalent of the stock filter. I used to use the WIX 51515 (replacement for the long body Fram PH8A) but it took too long to pump up oil pressure on a cold morning. Now I stick with the short body and change it more often. I use Castrol Syntec 5-50w in winter and that's nice down to minus-bazillion degrees, but as I said may have contributed to ticking... or maybe that's because it was a new engine.
Whatever the case, give her lots of fresh oil and filters and drive her vigorously, and she'll thrive on it.
when the engine started to tick in my 230,000 mile Toyota, I started adding a qt. of Lucas oil supplement at each oil change, and the sound stayed gone.
I've also just looked at two DII's with 45000 and 50000 miles on the odo, and both had a large hole in the transmission. It seems that a number of D II's are exploding the double cardan joints of the front drive-shaft which bangs into the tranny and knocks a hole in it. Talked to my dealer service manager, and with a sly grin he said: yeah, they are doing that all right - tell me when you get close to the end of warranty and I'll replace the shaft for you - for free of course. Another shop is replacing the cardan joints with one's that have grease zerks so you can service them and prevent a $4000 fix.
Thanks for the info on the ticking lifters. I too run synthetic oil, Mobil-1 10W30 and a K&N filter. Changes are done religiously every 5000 miles. Should I change to conventional oil for a couple of 3000 mi. cycles and then resume synthetic? I have run Mobil-1 since first oil change. Have I done damage to the seals and lifters etc. by not using the conventional oils? I only have 18000 miles after 2 years so I hope it's OK? Will the ticking return after I resume synthetics? I thought maybe the 91 octane gas here in California might be the cause. I can't find 92 anywhere. Any info would be appreciated. As an aside, I also think silver is the best color for a Rover since that is what I have too. I noticed that the maintenance manual states a transmission service is due at 30000 miles or 2 years. I'm at 2 years but not close to 30000 miles so what do I do? Wait until the mileage requirement or 2 year mark? Thanks.
Land Rover specifies 5w/30 or 5w/40 oil for winter oil and 10w40 for summer oil, synthetic is not required. Fuel octane should not cause the noise problem as the Engine ECU employs a "knock" sensor to retard engine timing if lower octane gas is used. Although not recommended, many owners burn lower grade gas. You may notice a slight drop in performance or fuel mileage (due to the possible retarded engine timing), but it will not harm the engine. Whenever a manufacturer specifies a mileage and a time limit for a required service,like the transmission service noted, it is for whichever occurs first. So if you have reached 2 years it would be recommended to have the trans serviced.
Synthetic oils are SO slippery that some people recommend against using them during breakin. The parts take forever to really get a good "seat" together.
Synthetics won't damage seals. If your seals are VERY old and nasty then using synthetics you might see a little weeping out thru the weakly-sealed area.
Lifters and rockers operate by sliding one across the surface of the other, so you want a strong lube film. This is what synth oil provides. If there's a ticking lifter that simply means it's not completely "pumped up" with engine oil so there is slight clearance between the rocker and the lifter; the lifter has not completely filled the gap between the two. So as the engine runs the cam comes around and pushes up on the lifter, which then rises and goes "tap" as it makes contact with the rocker arm. If the lifter has some little bit of crud stuck in it, it can prevent the lifter from fully pumping up. Hence the tappy lifters on old cars that have been neglected and run old oil for extended periods.
If it was up to me, I'd put in some 10-30w oil and a new filter (and I'd go to a Purolator Premium for cheaper price than the K&N and equal filtration). Then I'd run it awhile, maybe 500 or 1000 miles. Then I'd change it again, and do it all over. This will really flush the crud from the engine and will give it a chance to "seat" the parts together well. The slight ticking from the lifter(s) may very well go away. If it's more than a very slight "tick" then you better have it looked at. Knocking or thumping or thudding is BAD. When your 2 or 3 cycles of changing and flushing and breaking in are over, then sure... go back to synth lubes.
If you're running 9,000 miles/year then you might switch to dino lube. Letting a car sit for extended periods, you wind up having to change the oil by "time" not by "miles". Changing perfectly good oil because it's 3 months old is expensive when it's synth you're taking out. Besides at 18,000 miles that's only 3 changes... not really enough to have it well broken-in.
About trans service: I have personally seen a Disco owner wait until 70k miles before he did his transfer box FIRST SERVICE. The lube came out pretty and nice and there were almost NO flecks of metal in it. Amazing.
For your transmission the dino lube ATF inside is now a couple years old and it's old enough that it needs changing (it gets oxidized). You'll have to pay for this ONE service and then from here on out it will only be lube changes in the trans. Simple and fast (and a HUGE mess!) This service is spendy because they have to change the filter... the next are all cheap. I do them myself every year... ALL lubes and fluids are changed every year and the engine oil every 3k miles.
About low octane fuel: if you use cheap gas then the ECU will eventually retard your timing... and won't get around to re-advancing it later. So you'll have a performance loss that's noticeable. If you want her to run hard, use good gas. And try driving around town in '3' instead of 'D'. The ECUs eventually learn that you like to do that, and will "learn" to give you optimal mileage when driven like that. Your mileage won't suffer (much if any) and you get lots better performance... and the engine seems to thrive on it. When your speeds increase to around 50mph then go to 'D'.
Haven't heard of "dino lube". Is it a brand name? Incidentally, did you use synthetic ATF in your Disco? If not, why not something like Red Line Synthetic ATF?
Ahhhhhh, it's just a small joke. What I mean is oil that derives from crude... coming from all those ancient deposits in the ground. Non-synthetic is probably a better term (but it takes a lot more keystrokes to type).
I read once on an oil FAQ that any "spread" between the lowest and highest viscosity numbers greater than 30 is acheived via polymers. And that polymers don't lubricate... oil does. So their recommendation was to keep the spread low. So, in summer I use 5-30w (for those chilly mornings) and my "spread" is 25. For synthetics I guess the theory goes out the window and I use 5-50w Syntec.
I haven't tried synthetic ATF, though that's probably an excellent idea. There's a lot of heat and a lot of "shear" forces inside a transmission, and it's not being truly filtered like engine oil is. Synthetic makes sense.
I have read most of the post on the page and am looking for some help in buying a pre-owned suv. I am looking at the LX 450 and a 99/00 disco II with ACE.
My wife really likes the disco and so do I but am somewhat worried about upkeep with the Disco vs the well tested Toyota V6. I am fully aware of the size difference but both are vary capable off-roaders.
Also any big difference between 99 and 00. I found a 99 with everything (incl Ace) for $22,500 and a 00 without for $21,500.
To NANUG of the Dino Oil Co: Do Disco II's have tranny coolers? If not, shouldn't that be the first bit of aftermarket gear added? Then put in the Red Line ATF.
Dropped off my 01 DII for an oil change ~41k miles this morning as well as couple other little things (brake noise, and tapping). Either these boards are very timely or Lord Lucas has been lurking here.
I also asked about the drive shaft issue especially since I'm over 40k. My dealer has replaced 2 in the last 18 months or so but seemed to think the problem occurs on lifted trucks. He said the joints are strong but don't like the change in angle and added strain lifting puts on the shaft and joints. His opinion is that a stock truck should not be an issue.
Just thought I'd pass this info along. I do trust this dealer is giving their best opinion based on experience as they have taken good care of me for the last 2 years. I wonder if Tincup has seen a trend to the contrary or if he can share any info.
Boy, I don't know about the DII but my DI sure has a tranny cooler... every time I bury her up to the doors in snow she cools right down. Seriously I'd have to crawl beneath and have a peek but it seems like there's a couple extra lines running forward to the radiator from the autobox sump.
LX450 vs. Disco: A coworker was in the market for an SUV and we had the same discussion. She opted for the Lexus, not wanting to have to mess with her truck. Since she got the LX, she has had hers in the shop once and I've had mine in the shop zero times. Both are pretty darn reliable. In fact my DI is by far the most reliable vehicle I've owned, including 4 Fords, a Chrysler and 13 Hondas. Between the LX and DII, one will be "sterile" and more of an appliance vehicle while the other will have a soul. One will be as reliable and as exciting as a toaster, the other will take regular maintenance to keep her purring. By this I mean lube changes and adhering to the maintenance schedule. But it's simple work and gratifying to do yourself.
Difference between '99 and '00: I'd opt for fewer toys instead of more. More toys = more (expensive) things to wear out and break. If you drive hard in corners then ACE is a good thing, else it's another system to maintain. Likewise, the earlier in the model's lifespan the more problems you'll find. A '99 will probably have more things to deal with than an '00. ALSO, a big thing to watch... some late '99s were in fact DIs as Rover transitioned to the DII series. These were highly discounted models. Lucas was winding down as Bosch spooled up. Open the hoods and compare carefully.
Lifted Discos and driveshafts: the really important way to lift your truck is via taller tires. That won't affect your driveshaft angles. Clearance can become an issue... take a look at DiscoWeb.org for details.
As far as the 99 DI VS 99 DII the body work would be different right? ie tailiights, front grill etc. I am used to driving sports cars/sport sedans so I think the 99 (ACE) would be the better option for me even though it has more options. Thanks for the advice about LX vs DII because I agree totally. Do you think 53k is to many miles?
Absolutely right, the two series have easily discernable appearances. BUT... I heard rumors (take this with a grain of salt) that some early DIIs were using up old Lucas components, and that worries some people. I don't see how they COULD do that, given the different designs. But take it as a precaution. Popping the hoods and looking closely will reveal the truth.
Even with ACE, I wouldn't hustle a Disco very hard through corners. They excel offroad due in part to their long travel suspension designs, and while ACE does control suspension travel it doesn't remove it completely. Add in a tall body structure (aluminum notwithstanding) and you're awfully close to the fine edge of recovery should the unexpected happen. A Disco's mass is very low in the chassis and that's a good thing. But park this truck next to other SUVs and you'll see how big it really is... it's the size of most big minivans. I love to toss mine around in the ice and snow, and I've perfected a 4-wheel-drift technique that scares my wife to death (though the kids love it). But if it's bumpy terrain? No way will I get that truck sideways. She's great in parking lots and on frozen lakes, and she handles long hard powerslides VERY well, partly due to locking diffs and predicatable drivetrain response. But Mr. Newton quickly comes into play with his momentum equations when bumps appear. Don't risk it.
53k miles for a Disco is nothing. At that point you're about due for a major service interval (see if they'll split the price with you?). For high mileage Discos, talk to Mike Green at West Coast British. Last time I "talked" with him on the LRX forum, he had 650,000+ miles on his '96 Disco, on its first rebuild.
About the "soul vs. appliance" observation, I believe my next truck will be a '60s Ford Bronco with the small V8. Simplicity! That, or an early FJ40 or even a SIII Rover (pre-Disco). I want rollup windows and a manual transmission, and I want it to talk to me as I drive.
Boy I'm not sure... and our prices in Alaska are likey higher than yours. But you can expect $300 or more. They do quite a bit of work with this one. Better call the service manager.
If it was between an old FJ or the old Bronco, I'd opt for the coil suspension. My neighbor has a late 70s FJ and it won't go half the places my Disco will... he's limited by his suspension travel. Two summers ago we were playing and came across a nearly vertical ledge alongside a dry creek bed. It was hard gravel and sand. I put the left front wheel up on it (hard left turning lock) and then crawled up and over. His LC got as far as lifting his left rear wheel, and stopped.
Nanuq, I know what you are talking about when you say vehicles talk to you. I traded in my 78 Fj40 for the Defender. The FJ40 was a great vehicle. Top speed was 60 miles and hour. The back doors would fly open when driving down the road, and I had to place a brick under the tires to keep it from rolling backward down the driveway. My future wife especially liked the jungle vents located near the floor in front of the doors. We would hook up this little 14' jon boat and tow it to a nearby lake windows rattling and the back doors flying open the whole way. I knew she was a keeper when she talked me into getting rid of the Mitsubishi 3000 in favor of keeping the FJ40. The early Broncos are nice also and the coils do help.
"bakca", the 2 Disco II's I've seen with the "exploded" front cardan joints were NOT lifted but stock, which is what worries me because mine does have a 2.5 inch OME lift, but so far so good at 35000 miles. Also, since my dealer will replace the shaft at my request and cover it under warranty, I'm quite happy until it happens, I just hope I'm not far away.
The 30,000 mile service should cost $ 439.95 (as listed on a LR poster in my dealers' shop). The maintenance on my 00 was free for 4 years or 45,000 miles as part of a sales promotion - maybe that's still an incentive today?
I also would stay away from early 99 DII's - I've had some very bad experiences with mine (if you care to read my posts from 3 years ago). My 00 on the other hand has been perfect for 3 years!!
Keep up the informative posts "nanuq", they are good reading and based on experience.
Ah yes, the whole LC vs. LR thing. Nanuq, I noticed that you say that since your friend got the LX, she has had hers in the shop once and you've had it in the shop zero times. As I recall from some of your past posts, weren't there numerous problems with your Disco that required several trips to the Dealership, and that only after getting Anuqa 'over the hump' was she then trouble free?
I suppose the operative word is "since she got her LX," ie over that particular time span your disco's been fine and her's was brought in once. Still, seems kinda unfair to leave out the troubles you had when you first got the Disco, esp. since a person buying used is going to care about what troubles they might encounter when they first get a vehicle.
Suffice to say, one data point doesn't make a trend. One bad website for "[insert car brand]sucks.com" only means you've got one pissed off owner with html skills and way too much time.
With respect to reliability (not to say that this is the only criteria to judge a car on) take a look at JD powers (initial and 5 year), intellichoice, consumer reports. Also, if you can, ask how much an extended warranty will cost, since that is the most accurate measure of how much repairs will cost over a period of time (i.e. magazines can say what they want, but when dollars and cents are at stake, warranty providers won't b.s. as to how much repairs will likely cost).
Oh yeah, and take everything anyone has to say on an internet chat site (incl. me) with a grain of salt ...
You're right, of course. I didn't mention that hers was a new LX, either.
Wouldn't a new car display the initial build quality issues you mention? The two years of hell? So buying a used one, you can reasonably expect them to be fixed, or disclosed when you buy... regardless of brand. So we see my repaired Rover (after the two years of hell) has been more reliable than the new LX over a 3-year period. This might be expected, and gives weight to the usual comment "once fixed, they stay fixed."
In those three years my Rover has got regular HARD use... and nothing breaks. Hers has driven back and forth to work, on the highway. The rest of my post points out that in the same timeframe my Rover has been more reliable than every JGC, Dodge, Chrysler, or Ford owned by a friend or family member. The Hondas are doing as well reliability-wise.
I think there's a widespread belief that British vehicles are junk that break down all the time. That was certainly more true in the past, but times have changed. Now I'm seeing better materials and better durability with my British truck than with any domestic product in my personal experience.
Case in point: my wife's Ford is in the shop again. This is the 2nd time in 3 months. The last repair bill was $1,300 and this one will be $995. Both vehicles receive the same care and maintenance, but the Rover gets MUCH MUCH harder use.
Am I bashing Lexus or Toyota? Not at all... they are simply not my cuppa tea. They're fine trucks but no more deserving (IMHO) of accolades than Rovers are of their poor reputation.
Comments
Thank you for that run-down of expenses. You've just pretty much convinced me to go ahead and go for an old Discovery for sure (well, you and Nanuq). Those are perfectly acceptable kinds of expenses. ("Well, the metal eventually wore out" is pretty hard to argue against.)
Nanuq,
Reading your post made me really hope it works out with this Disco I mentioned. (Agh, the suspense...) And of all of us here I suppose you have the most license to order the "Icelandic Blue" paint, given location and all.
SUVinLA
A 97 with relatively high mileage... well-kept but over 100k... would allow easier financing (because of the year being recent enough for regular bank financing) and there are some quite low prices out there.
An older one with 80k miles (60k would be lovely but costs a lot more)... would mean paying outright most likely (which could be done), and the buy prices aren't of course quite as low.
Where's the sweet spot?
The May 03 issue of Automobile Magazine (Brock Yates of Car and Driver calls it Automobile, I think) has a photo on Page 49 of a disguised 2005 Disconvery. The new model will still be body on frame but with independent suspension rather than the solid axles. Apparently the 4.6 Buick engine will go away and be replaced by a Jag sourced 4.2 liter DOHC V8 with a 3.0 liter V6 also available. Does anyone have any more info?
Judging by past history on other car lines have new models accelerated the depreciation on the "old" style? (For example is the resale value on a 2002 Expediton drop significantly less than it normally would have because of the new style 2003? Is the Saab 9-3 resale--I know its tough to talk about Saab resale with a straight face-- lower now than what it would normally be with the new style 9-3?)
What's my best move? Wait until I both the 2003/4 and the new style 2005 are side by side?
Thanks
http://www.forbes.com/2002/07/29/0729feat_6.html
Picture of the 05?
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5147&n=158,- 178&sid=178
Don't know if I helped any! I'll be checking back to see what others say!
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5956&n=156,- 178&sid=178
I'm now at 35,000 miles with my 00 DiscoII - and it's still perfecto - no complaints, no problems, zip. I have three other vehicles (Toyota, Mercedes, and Nissan) and the Disco is the best of all - and the most pleasurable to drive. I can't explain it - I just love that thing!!
Have had some problems though with the Michelin tires - just had another flat yesterday while rock-hopping - had to do a trail fix real fast by plugging the hole. I've had my Toyota 4x4 off-road for years, and never had a flat (same terrain) with the Bridgestone Dueler A/T's. The Michies pop a hole almost every time. I want to keep that "unique" square block tread pattern that has been a Disco trademark for so long - any suggestions from you guys? I'm running stock 255-16's, and 95% is on-road driving.
Happy Rovering to all!
Assuming it sounded and handled absolutely fine, and had a plausibly safe history?
(It looks like I'll be able to see maintenance records on it, and a recent smog. If they reasonably jive with the recommended Land Rover maintenance schedule, how set would you be on having an engine compression test and all that?)
Private party that sounds reputable, not a used dealer. Second owner but one that did a lot of research before buying (from a couple in a high-end, sedate area of town), who due to plausible circumstances wound up not needing the vehicle and has newer nice ones in their driveway.
Of several Discos I've driven, it drives the most soundly. Newish tires too.
Get beneath it and give the driveshafts a good twist. Is there a horrible amount of play with a clank? There WILL be a surprising amount but it should "thud" not "clank". Check the rotoflex coupler (at the aft end of the aft driveshaft) for cracks and breaks. Check the swivel seals for leaks. Sniff the reservoir for power steering fluid, it should have bright red fresh ATF. Check the brake fluid reservoir... is it dark fluid or bright? Look at fasteners beneath the bonnet (grin) are they filthy or clean? Has it been recently or regularly worked on? Check inside the front wheels for black tarry residue... the axle seals in the swivel housings might be weeping out thru the dust caps at the halfshaft outer ends. Check for rust at the bottom aft corners of the rear seat door openings. Likewise the rear hatch hinges. Check for water leaks around the alpine windows and at the top outer corners of the windscreen. Feel the rear mat... is it DRY or is it cold (wet) at all? Check actuation of diff lock and low range... is it smooth or is the linkage seized (common)? How is the tire wear? Any cupping at the front? Are the rotors gouged? How much pad is left? Are the caliper bolts clean (recent work)? Good steering damper? Drive it over some angled bumps (like RR tracks) at 52mph with hands barely on the wheel and see if it oscillates. Check ALL the electrical functions, window openers, rear windows, check air conditioner operation for musty smell. Last check: is the jack and chock there? If so, buy her and take her home! If she passes this, she's a keeper at this mileage.
1. I read over the manual; it seemed to say that once you started driving and reach about 4 miles per hour, the doors should lock automatically. Mine don't do this. Does anyone know if this is perhaps an option I don't have?
2. The manual also says that when you unlock the vehicle using the remote, the first time you click the unlock button with the key, only the driver's door should unlock. The second click should unlock all of the doors. On my truck, all of the doors unlock with the first click. Again, am I misreading the manual or reading about an option that isn't on my SE?
Thank you, any advice would help. Otherwise I will call the dealer. Also, any misc. tips would help, as this is my first Land Rover.
The Disco is many things but it ain't made to be a flung around corners, do rush hour lane changes on Boston's Storrow Drive, or quickly move over three lanes into the passing lane for a left exit off I 95 (yes, we have left exits off Interstates here in the east).
Anybody willing to predict if the current Disco II resale will go up or down once the new body style appears? Will the 2003's be el cheapo? Will there even be a 2004? The increase in wheel base (up to 110 or 115" ?) is huge.
The dealer says they don't know what is wrong. They checked the tank and filler neck but found no defects. I'm tired of washing spilled gasoline off the car after each fillup. Any help would be great. Thanks.
Can't say that anyone found a solution though.
Steve, Host
Steve, Host
It seems to be related to synthetic oils in my case... perhaps they're more active as detergents and put contaminants in the oil, which stick the lifters a little? Regardless, it has never caused any damage and my truck runs like a scalded cat.
I'd recommend an engine oil/filter change, drive it a hundred miles (lots of high speed highway) and then change oil/filter again. See if that flushes the lifters. Do it a couple times... keep the oil REALLY fresh in these engines and they seem to thrive on it.
I've read that ticking lifters are an indication in an older Rover that the oil has been neglected and it's something to watch for when buying used. But for a 16k mile engine you may only have some flecks of material wearing off from the newly machined engine internals and they're slowly being flushed with oil changes? Come to think of it, I had the most ticking the first 2 or 3 years... And now at 80k miles my engine is finally well broken-in and doesn't tick anymore.
I recommend 10-30w engine oil, and the WIX or Purolator Premium filter that's the numeric equivalent of the stock filter. I used to use the WIX 51515 (replacement for the long body Fram PH8A) but it took too long to pump up oil pressure on a cold morning. Now I stick with the short body and change it more often. I use Castrol Syntec 5-50w in winter and that's nice down to minus-bazillion degrees, but as I said may have contributed to ticking... or maybe that's because it was a new engine.
Whatever the case, give her lots of fresh oil and filters and drive her vigorously, and she'll thrive on it.
I've also just looked at two DII's with 45000 and 50000 miles on the odo, and both had a large hole in the transmission. It seems that a number of D II's are exploding the double cardan joints of the front drive-shaft which bangs into the tranny and knocks a hole in it. Talked to my dealer service manager, and with a sly grin he said: yeah, they are doing that all right - tell me when you get close to the end of warranty and I'll replace the shaft for you - for free of course. Another shop is replacing the cardan joints with one's that have grease zerks so you can service them and prevent a $4000 fix.
Happy rovering!
I noticed that the maintenance manual states a transmission service is due at 30000 miles or 2 years. I'm at 2 years but not close to 30000 miles so what do I do? Wait until the mileage requirement or 2 year mark? Thanks.
Synthetics won't damage seals. If your seals are VERY old and nasty then using synthetics you might see a little weeping out thru the weakly-sealed area.
Lifters and rockers operate by sliding one across the surface of the other, so you want a strong lube film. This is what synth oil provides. If there's a ticking lifter that simply means it's not completely "pumped up" with engine oil so there is slight clearance between the rocker and the lifter; the lifter has not completely filled the gap between the two. So as the engine runs the cam comes around and pushes up on the lifter, which then rises and goes "tap" as it makes contact with the rocker arm. If the lifter has some little bit of crud stuck in it, it can prevent the lifter from fully pumping up. Hence the tappy lifters on old cars that have been neglected and run old oil for extended periods.
If it was up to me, I'd put in some 10-30w oil and a new filter (and I'd go to a Purolator Premium for cheaper price than the K&N and equal filtration). Then I'd run it awhile, maybe 500 or 1000 miles. Then I'd change it again, and do it all over. This will really flush the crud from the engine and will give it a chance to "seat" the parts together well. The slight ticking from the lifter(s) may very well go away. If it's more than a very slight "tick" then you better have it looked at. Knocking or thumping or thudding is BAD. When your 2 or 3 cycles of changing and flushing and breaking in are over, then sure... go back to synth lubes.
If you're running 9,000 miles/year then you might switch to dino lube. Letting a car sit for extended periods, you wind up having to change the oil by "time" not by "miles". Changing perfectly good oil because it's 3 months old is expensive when it's synth you're taking out. Besides at 18,000 miles that's only 3 changes... not really enough to have it well broken-in.
About trans service: I have personally seen a Disco owner wait until 70k miles before he did his transfer box FIRST SERVICE. The lube came out pretty and nice and there were almost NO flecks of metal in it. Amazing.
For your transmission the dino lube ATF inside is now a couple years old and it's old enough that it needs changing (it gets oxidized). You'll have to pay for this ONE service and then from here on out it will only be lube changes in the trans. Simple and fast (and a HUGE mess!) This service is spendy because they have to change the filter... the next are all cheap. I do them myself every year... ALL lubes and fluids are changed every year and the engine oil every 3k miles.
About low octane fuel: if you use cheap gas then the ECU will eventually retard your timing... and won't get around to re-advancing it later. So you'll have a performance loss that's noticeable. If you want her to run hard, use good gas. And try driving around town in '3' instead of 'D'. The ECUs eventually learn that you like to do that, and will "learn" to give you optimal mileage when driven like that. Your mileage won't suffer (much if any) and you get lots better performance... and the engine seems to thrive on it. When your speeds increase to around 50mph then go to 'D'.
I hope this helps! -Bob
I read once on an oil FAQ that any "spread" between the lowest and highest viscosity numbers greater than 30 is acheived via polymers. And that polymers don't lubricate... oil does. So their recommendation was to keep the spread low. So, in summer I use 5-30w (for those chilly mornings) and my "spread" is 25. For synthetics I guess the theory goes out the window and I use 5-50w Syntec.
I haven't tried synthetic ATF, though that's probably an excellent idea. There's a lot of heat and a lot of "shear" forces inside a transmission, and it's not being truly filtered like engine oil is. Synthetic makes sense.
My wife really likes the disco and so do I but am somewhat worried about upkeep with the Disco vs the well tested Toyota V6. I am fully aware of the size difference but both are vary capable off-roaders.
Also any big difference between 99 and 00. I found a 99 with everything (incl Ace) for $22,500 and a 00 without for $21,500.
Thanks for the help
I also asked about the drive shaft issue especially since I'm over 40k. My dealer has replaced 2 in the last 18 months or so but seemed to think the problem occurs on lifted trucks. He said the joints are strong but don't like the change in angle and added strain lifting puts on the shaft and joints. His opinion is that a stock truck should not be an issue.
Just thought I'd pass this info along. I do trust this dealer is giving their best opinion based on experience as they have taken good care of me for the last 2 years. I wonder if Tincup has seen a trend to the contrary or if he can share any info.
LX450 vs. Disco: A coworker was in the market for an SUV and we had the same discussion. She opted for the Lexus, not wanting to have to mess with her truck. Since she got the LX, she has had hers in the shop once and I've had mine in the shop zero times. Both are pretty darn reliable. In fact my DI is by far the most reliable vehicle I've owned, including 4 Fords, a Chrysler and 13 Hondas. Between the LX and DII, one will be "sterile" and more of an appliance vehicle while the other will have a soul. One will be as reliable and as exciting as a toaster, the other will take regular maintenance to keep her purring. By this I mean lube changes and adhering to the maintenance schedule. But it's simple work and gratifying to do yourself.
Difference between '99 and '00: I'd opt for fewer toys instead of more. More toys = more (expensive) things to wear out and break. If you drive hard in corners then ACE is a good thing, else it's another system to maintain. Likewise, the earlier in the model's lifespan the more problems you'll find. A '99 will probably have more things to deal with than an '00. ALSO, a big thing to watch... some late '99s were in fact DIs as Rover transitioned to the DII series. These were highly discounted models. Lucas was winding down as Bosch spooled up. Open the hoods and compare carefully.
Lifted Discos and driveshafts: the really important way to lift your truck is via taller tires. That won't affect your driveshaft angles. Clearance can become an issue... take a look at DiscoWeb.org for details.
I am used to driving sports cars/sport sedans so I think the 99 (ACE) would be the better option for me even though it has more options.
Thanks for the advice about LX vs DII because I agree totally.
Do you think 53k is to many miles?
Even with ACE, I wouldn't hustle a Disco very hard through corners. They excel offroad due in part to their long travel suspension designs, and while ACE does control suspension travel it doesn't remove it completely. Add in a tall body structure (aluminum notwithstanding) and you're awfully close to the fine edge of recovery should the unexpected happen. A Disco's mass is very low in the chassis and that's a good thing. But park this truck next to other SUVs and you'll see how big it really is... it's the size of most big minivans. I love to toss mine around in the ice and snow, and I've perfected a 4-wheel-drift technique that scares my wife to death (though the kids love it). But if it's bumpy terrain? No way will I get that truck sideways. She's great in parking lots and on frozen lakes, and she handles long hard powerslides VERY well, partly due to locking diffs and predicatable drivetrain response. But Mr. Newton quickly comes into play with his momentum equations when bumps appear. Don't risk it.
53k miles for a Disco is nothing. At that point you're about due for a major service interval (see if they'll split the price with you?). For high mileage Discos, talk to Mike Green at West Coast British. Last time I "talked" with him on the LRX forum, he had 650,000+ miles on his '96 Disco, on its first rebuild.
About the "soul vs. appliance" observation, I believe my next truck will be a '60s Ford Bronco with the small V8. Simplicity! That, or an early FJ40 or even a SIII Rover (pre-Disco). I want rollup windows and a manual transmission, and I want it to talk to me as I drive.
Take a look here:
http://www.nanuq.net/Arnold's/Bob/LandRover.html
Do you know what that 60k service will run?
What a great testimonial about the "SOUL" of a Rover.
2 of my good friends have had 60's broncos and absolutely love then. I would have trouble deciding between that or an old LC.
If it was between an old FJ or the old Bronco, I'd opt for the coil suspension. My neighbor has a late 70s FJ and it won't go half the places my Disco will... he's limited by his suspension travel. Two summers ago we were playing and came across a nearly vertical ledge alongside a dry creek bed. It was hard gravel and sand. I put the left front wheel up on it (hard left turning lock) and then crawled up and over. His LC got as far as lifting his left rear wheel, and stopped.
If you go chasing Nanuq through the drifts and woods, your maintenance costs will likely run a bit higher....
Steve, Host
I know what you are talking about when you say vehicles talk to you. I traded in my 78 Fj40 for the Defender. The FJ40 was a great vehicle. Top speed was 60 miles and hour. The back doors would fly open when driving down the road, and I had to place a brick under the tires to keep it from rolling backward down the driveway. My future wife especially liked the jungle vents located near the floor in front of the doors. We would hook up this little 14' jon boat and tow it to a nearby lake windows rattling and the back doors flying open the whole way. I knew she was a keeper when she talked me into getting rid of the Mitsubishi 3000 in favor of keeping the FJ40. The early Broncos are nice also and the coils do help.
The 30,000 mile service should cost $ 439.95 (as listed on a LR poster in my dealers' shop). The maintenance on my 00 was free for 4 years or 45,000 miles as part of a sales promotion - maybe that's still an incentive today?
I also would stay away from early 99 DII's - I've had some very bad experiences with mine (if you care to read my posts from 3 years ago). My 00 on the other hand has been perfect for 3 years!!
Keep up the informative posts "nanuq", they are good reading and based on experience.
I suppose the operative word is "since she got her LX," ie over that particular time span your disco's been fine and her's was brought in once. Still, seems kinda unfair to leave out the troubles you had when you first got the Disco, esp. since a person buying used is going to care about what troubles they might encounter when they first get a vehicle.
Suffice to say, one data point doesn't make a trend. One bad website for "[insert car brand]sucks.com" only means you've got one pissed off owner with html skills and way too much time.
With respect to reliability (not to say that this is the only criteria to judge a car on) take a look at JD powers (initial and 5 year), intellichoice, consumer reports. Also, if you can, ask how much an extended warranty will cost, since that is the most accurate measure of how much repairs will cost over a period of time (i.e. magazines can say what they want, but when dollars and cents are at stake, warranty providers won't b.s. as to how much repairs will likely cost).
Oh yeah, and take everything anyone has to say on an internet chat site (incl. me) with a grain of salt ...
jynewf
Wouldn't a new car display the initial build quality issues you mention? The two years of hell? So buying a used one, you can reasonably expect them to be fixed, or disclosed when you buy... regardless of brand. So we see my repaired Rover (after the two years of hell) has been more reliable than the new LX over a 3-year period. This might be expected, and gives weight to the usual comment "once fixed, they stay fixed."
In those three years my Rover has got regular HARD use... and nothing breaks. Hers has driven back and forth to work, on the highway. The rest of my post points out that in the same timeframe my Rover has been more reliable than every JGC, Dodge, Chrysler, or Ford owned by a friend or family member. The Hondas are doing as well reliability-wise.
I think there's a widespread belief that British vehicles are junk that break down all the time. That was certainly more true in the past, but times have changed. Now I'm seeing better materials and better durability with my British truck than with any domestic product in my personal experience.
Case in point: my wife's Ford is in the shop again. This is the 2nd time in 3 months. The last repair bill was $1,300 and this one will be $995. Both vehicles receive the same care and maintenance, but the Rover gets MUCH MUCH harder use.
Am I bashing Lexus or Toyota? Not at all... they are simply not my cuppa tea. They're fine trucks but no more deserving (IMHO) of accolades than Rovers are of their poor reputation.