Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

gbernsteen

Hi I've been shopping for a Forester this week, and found two dealers in NoVa who will sell 2004 X and XS models (don't know about XTs) for 350 below invoice.

I guess there is some kind of customer cash offer going on til the end of August for about $450. Which really makes it 100 over invoice to the dealer, not bad on a brand new model year!

amyash

Hi all...

I've got a 2002 Forester S Prem (auto tranny) w/approximately 11,800 miles (I've had it for almost 15 months). Over the past few months, I've noticed a significant drop-off in power (almost as if its going to go into a stall) when I shift into drive from park. This usually occurs only when the car is cold. I usually don't let it warm up/idle for more than a few seconds after staring the car, especially in warm weather, so perhaps I'm the cause of the problem (tho, it doesn't seem much better when I do let it warm up for 30 or so seconds before shifting into drive).

Any thoughts? Anyone else experience similar problems? Should I bring it to Subaru for a check?

Thanks.

kens

My intial reaction would be a faulty PCV valve. Since you're still in the B2B warranty, take it in and have the dealer take a look.

Ken

p0926

I got 50k out of the OEM Yokos on my 2001 and recently replaced them with Dunlop Sport A2s and have had no complaints.

-Frank P.

stoner420

I'll second the ContiExtremeContacts.. I recently put a set on my WRX wagon, and enjoying them very much. Superb wet traction, can't wait to see how they handle the snow.

tornbetween

I've been looking at these messages to get help with deciding between the XS or XT with AT, but I'm still confused. I'd like to decide very soon, so any input is appreciated.

I love the Forester but feel the XS is a bit underpowered. I'm coming from a 1990 Toyota Corolla Station Wagon with MT, and am thinking I'll need a bit more power if I change to AT. Live in the Northeast with lots of snow. Test driving the XT after the XS, there was an amazing difference in power and smoothness of ride. Also liked the look of the fabric in the XT much better than the fabric or leather (gray) of the XS. So I fell in love with the XT, but as the time for a decision grows closer, I'm getting more and more worried about gas mileage. Feel like I'm torn between my natural thriftiness and mid-life crisis. In real life I don't drive very fast, but I like to know I can if need be.

Any input would be appreciated. I'd be particularly interested in XT mpg after the car has been broken in (especially with conservative driving habits.)

ballistic

My 5-speed XT has nearly 1,600 miles. No other XT owner drives more conservatively than I, and my daily commute is 70 to 80% freeway driving at 60-65mph. I'm barely averaging 21mpg on very costly premium fuel. I call that mediocre.

If operating costs matter to you, get the XS.

c_hunter

Any reason you're switching to an auto trans? Because the Forester X or XS is plenty powerful and a blast to drive with manual transmission. With auto, it's got enough power, but you lose a lot of throttle response and the playful feeling. So, my vote would be XS with 5-spd for the combination of power, fun, and gas mileage.

If you really have a midlife crisis, do what I did -- buy a WRX!

Craig

lfdal

I personally have taken the plunge. I'm trading in a 2003 Forester XS premium on a 2004 XT premium. I've followed the boards here with lots of interest, pros and cons, and the feedback and insight have been great. Juice, Jack, IdahoDoug, Frank, Grahm, and everyone else, Thank You, both for XT specifics and Subaru info in general.
I bought my 03 XS 13 months ago. My wife likes the AWD so much she bought an 03 Outback in January.
What tipped the scales so that I'd pull a looney -toon maneuver like trading an 03 for an 04? Well, basically, I want to. I work. It's my money. The devil with the rest of it. My previous cars have been Mercury Sables for quite a while (14 years) and I'm used to 200 hp with 15 mpg (yes that's 15 mpg) around town being normal and 22-25 on a trip being great. My 03 gets 21 around town and 25 - 30 on trips (depending upon how I push it - personnally, if I'm doing 90 mph sustained and I get 19-20 mpg I'm very happy).
I like my Forester XS a lot, it's really the ideal blend of what I want for where I'm at in my life. If I had an MT, I probably wouldn't be getting an XT, but a MT is out of the question for me - anyone else spent 1-4 hours tied up in a Boston traffic jam? If you still feel like a MT after that, you're a better person than I, Gunga Din. Plus, I really like the open cabin feeling I get with the moonroof regardless if its opened or closed.
So, my XT is here, I saw it yesterday (told the dealer if the odometer is different when I pick it up this week, I'll be ticked). He said they normally give new owners a full tank to start out with. I said I'd rather do it myself. Same dealership I bought my 03 (and the wife's Outback) from. I'd recommned them.
What I want in the XT over the XS is a few more ponies for when I need them. I did two - 400 mile round trips in my XS last weekend and a couple of times I could really have used some extra gusto ( 2 lane road, speed zones varying between 40 - 55, Rt 3 - Augusta to Belfast, Maine). With a MT I could have gotten what I needed but not an option for me as I said above. I'd already ordered my XT by then so that was positive reinforcement.
I'm almost 50 so its not like I'm going to turn into boy-racer anytime soon. I looked at lots and lots of cars both for the 03 and 04 model years, and this was the best choice for me. Wish me luck folks.
Regards to all,
Larry

irnmdn

"We show the turning circle to be 34.8 ft. That's a bit better than what we show for a '99 MB C230 "Supercharged" (35.2 ft.)."

As a matter of fact, Forester has slightly smaller turing circle than the behemoth Mini Cooper.

chaynes1

I have one year and 22,000 miles on my '03 XS automatic. Frequently (not all the time) when I go from "reverse" to "drive" and begin to accelerate, the driveline slips momentarily, takes-up, lurches slightly and moves on. It's as though it has some slack in the driveline. My WRX 5-speed doesn't do this. The Suby service manager says that it is normal. I am suspect of this answer, because I've never had a car do this. Any thoughts from the enlightened out there?

ballistic

Larry: I drove the XT automatic and was hugely impressed. Then, having a strong preference for manual transmissions, I bought the 5-speed.

For what it's worth, I think the automatic is by far the better choice in this car.

tornbetween

Thank you so much for your comments on XT vs. XS w/AT. For a variety of reasons including driving customers around in my car and wanting to focus on them rather than shifting, I have decided to get AT instead of MT. I do mostly suburban driving with occassional long hauls and trips to the mountains. I'm female, over 50, frugal, environmentally concerned, and would feel funny about having the air scoop on the front of my car, but there's something about the XT...

Congrats Ifdal - I love your decisiveness! By the way, what dealer do you recommend? I'm near Boston too.

lfdal

If you have a chance, e-mail me at the address in my profile and I'll give my views on 3 different dealers I dealt with around here.

lfdal

chaynes1 - if you look at www.endwrench.com I believe they mention in a transmission bulletin that a one to two second lag between forward and reverse is normal. I've found in my own Forester that if I give it that long after I shift before I hit the gas the lag isn't there. If I dont't wait I'm apt to get what you described.
On the other hand, if its lasting longer than that, you might have a problem
HTH
Larry

mpower4

I test drove the XT first and fell in love...even put a down payment on one...but then the dealer said he could not locate the color I wanted, and it gave me time to reconsider the fuel cost (premium) and mileage versus the XS...my wife was very adamant about these factors and I have to admit she had a point...then a great price was offered on a new CR-V with everything I wanted (except leather) and I was about to go in that direction before test-driving the XS immediately after road testing the Honda...I ended up with an 03 XS with leather...very happy so far...mileage is 28mph, and the way gas prices in the Northeast are going, I'm happy...

c_hunter

Good for you! Like my neighbor says, you can't take money with you when you die, so you may as well enjoy yourself!

By the way, I agree with your logic, I use it all the time. Of course, it doesn't always sit well with my wife, but I can usually buy her off with a few glasses of wine....

Craig

c_hunter

Yes, I believe this is normal, and it occurs on our AT subarus as well. While it's nothing to worry about, I do think Subaru could improve this.

Craig

njswamplands

mfletouva

Quick question--
What did you all pay (or did you) for "doc fees" when you bought your Foresters. Dealer has a $185 'doc fee' posted around the showroom. Obviously this is bogus, but it seems to be the norm for Subaru dealers in my area.

lbhaley

My New Hampshire dealer charged me a $95 Documentation Fee on my XT. He said it was to cover the cost of preparing the title application etc. I am sure this fee can vary from dealer to dealer.

ateixeira

I paid around $50 for them to process the plates. Worth it, IMO, do you really want to spend a day in line at the DMV? It took me 2.5 hours just to renew a driver's license last week.

OT: good news is LASIK worked like a charm, had my corrective lenses restrictions removed from my new license! One year later, no side effects. :-)

Amy: try priming the fuel pump before you start it. Turn the key to the on position, but wait a couple of seconds. You'll hear a little "whirr" noise, that's the fuel pump getting pressure up. If you do that, it'll run smoother, especially at first, before it warms up.

Enid: I'm glad to see you're really doing your homework. And I really think you'll be happy with either choice. With the XS, you'll be happy to use cheaper 87 octane, and I bet you'll measure your milege with each tank. I average 25mpg on the cheap stuff!

If you get an XT, you'll have a different kind of fun. Like outaccelerating a Porsche Cayenne Turbo all the way to 50mph. Beyond that, the only safe thing to do is slow down since you'll be laughing so hard!

So, ask this, can you really afford the higher operating cost of the XT? If so, go for it. You deserve it. You only live once. Life is short. Spend your kids' inheritance! )

Is it more satisfying to spend less $ on gas at the pump compared to the Cayenne, or to out run him? You choose. (Edit: actually, with the XT you get both and now I forget what my point was, LOL)

Larry: congrats. After driving an XT, I understand completely. I suffer from Xtreme Torque Envy to this day.

-juice

stoner420

I've noticed in our new XT auto that there is a noticeable lag when shifting from reverse to drive. Seems like it's definitely slower than previous non-Subie ATs I've driven, but as mentioned above, per the technical article, it's considered "normal" on Subie ATs. Other than that minor nit, the AT + drive-by-wire is quite smooth and shifts quickly.

stoner420

Also the XT costs about 1/3, and much nicer looking, to boot.

fargfam

To this day, I've never gotten better then 24 MPG on my XS prem. I know it's still in the break-in phase with only 2700, but those 2700 miles would've been a hoot in an XT. Still though, (this is where I fight my extreme tourque envy)the XS is a great car, (repeat)

Torn, if you can wait, maybe see what the 2nd gen. XT will be like. We may see an improvement in MPG.

ateixeira

If the 2nd gen XT is still registered as a car, my guess is they'll work on improving mileage.

But if they register it as a truck, like they do for the Baja, mpg is much less of a concern, because CAFE standards for trucks are a lot lower (20.7 vs. 27.5).

For Subaru, it's sort of unfair. Competitors take the easy route and call them trucks, even earn CAFE credits with them. This may become a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".

-juice

once_for_all

I average 25-26 in summer, 28-29 in winter. Best mpg so far is 31.0. Difference between winter and summer is AC, which is on 60% of time. I take a 4-5 mpg hit when it is on. I found this out by sweating a week during the summer without AC and getting 29.6 mpg. This, after concerns over why my summmer mpg was so poor.

John

ateixeira

That's funny, I actually do better in summer, most likely due to reformulated fuels used here in the winter. I lose maybe 1-2mpg compared to my overall average.

-juice

mfletouva

Yeah, $50 or even $95 may be worth it, but $185 is crazy. We'll have to push them on price to make up for it. I see that there was an Edmunds discussion on this a while back that pretty much boiled down to dealers defending it (how are we supposed to make a profit?) and consumers complaining that it was deceptive because it many cases it is added on after you've negotiated the price, which is the camp I side wtih. I guess at least in this case we found out about it ahead of time.

ateixeira

That is a lot. Tell them you charge a $185 fee for "putting up with dealer surprise charges".

I bought no-haggle last time, and liked it so much I'm pretty sure I'll repeat buy from that dealer. Even if the price is a tiny bit higher, it'll save me the aggravation. Plus, it might not be higher after all, if other dealers tack on fees that high.

Good luck shopping.

-juice

leo2633

I also get lower MPG in winter, due to the reformulated gasoline. I do better in the summer, even with AC on constantly.

Len

kullenberg

Agree to pay the doc fees, but tell them you are going to bill them $50 per month for advertising for having their name on the back of the car, for as long as you keep it. I seem to recall that this has some supportive precedent in some states!. If they will take the sign off, with no damage, and drop the doc fees, you'll forget it.

joseph50

Yep, living here in the Philly area, during November to March, I drop from a summer average of 27+ mpg to just about 23 mpg (2001 S automatic). A dramatic difference. It sure points to "winter gas" in these here parts as the culprit.
But then again, one can't discount the contributing effect of just plain low outside temp and possibly an "off" thermostat issue --- can one?

xccoachlou

I paid a $79 documentary fee. I think that was reasonable for not spending a day in line at DMV.

My theory is that a dealer that tries to stiff you on the documentary fee will try to stiff you in other areas. I always believe one is better going to a smaller store than a "highway" store.

I took a 240 mile trip to Taxachusetts, and on the way up, with an average sustained speed that was, shall we say of about 65 MPH. That tankful included about 130 miles of city/highway driving previous to the trip. Average was 24.4 MPG

On the return trip, with a 1 hour delay due to residual flooding as apparently NY State is incapable of designing roads that don't flood, I got 28.7 MPG. That's awesome considering the one hour delay, stop and go traffic on portions of 495, and I'm one of those people that believes paying for AC means using it.

- Lou, now an X XC Coach

p0926

What really annoys me is when they pre-print the doc fee on the sales invoice, thereby implying that you have no choice but to pay it. Many dealers also try to sneak it in with the taxes and most buyers are so worn down with the buying process by that point that they just agree to pay it. Still, I'm like others here in that I probably wouldn't quibble over anything under a hundred but $185 is just the dealer padding his profit margin plain and simple.

-Frank P.

mfletouva

Since they "post it" they act like you can't negotiate. Its standard policy is the answer you get. An unsuspecting consumer would be led to believe that it is required, or standard practice.

You are probably right about small stores, but in my experience even including stuff like the doc fees, the bigger, higher volume dealers are simple much cheaper. Even in shopping for a Forester the smallest store I got a quote from was just about $1000 over the cheapest, which was a high volume store. Now, perhaps its $1000-$185 (!) but still...

ohsubeguy

I currently have a case open with SUBARU3. I not completely happy with how it is being handled. Is there someone I can contact directly at SUBARU3 for additional support?

Extremely frustrated,
ohsubeguy

forestergump

The is a representative from SOA that monitors this board in order to provide assistance and a direct link to SOA. Patti is currently on vacation, but try posting in the thread specific to her role, and you should get a response when she returns. Good luck.

once_for_all

here in California, they do change the formulation, but I am not sure it affects mpg. Is part of your lower MPG on the east coast due to rain/snow conditions and defroster (AC) use? In Fresno area, we might only get 20 wet road conditions per winter. My fact is based on consistent logging of mpg 25-6 summer with AC, 28-9 without in the winter. I did a test--one week with AC I had 26.0, the next week without AC, same gas, I get 29.6.

John

ohsubeguy

forestergump ....

Thanks for your response. Do you know what thread Patti happens to monitor?

ohsubeguy

ateixeira

If they surprise you with a $185 fee, then fine, just reduce the price by $185, and you're back to the figure you had agreed on! ;-)

Steve: Patti works for SoA but she's on leave all of this week. Anything you'd care to share with us? Maybe someone here could help.

glen: that's what the aftermarket is for, my friend. ) I got 16"x7" rims for US$75 each on close out. Try Tire Rack and Discount Tire Direct for specials.

It's not like Subaru has a patent on the alloys used in the wheels, in fact they outsource to 3rd parties to make their wheels anyway.

-juice

p0926

Glen- You should have no problem getting the dealer to fix creaks and rattles in the first year/12k.

Re the OEM wheels: it's not surprising that the dealers want a fortune. You're definitely better off going aftermarket. If you're dead set on OEM wheels, try an online retailer such as Subaruparts.com.

-Frank P.

ateixeira

Better yet, buy a used set. WRX take-offs are easy to find, in fact I think Tire Rack even sells them. Call and ask.

-juice

armac13

imyodaddy "Subaru Crew: Official SOA Presence (aka Patti)" Aug 19, 2003 11:37am

This is the Thread for which you are looking.

Ross

ohsubeguy

juice ...

I'll try to keep this short and concise.

In February my '99 Forester went in to the dealer for its 60k service. 3 days later the timing belt breaks. You know what that resulted in. The dealer was authorized by Subaru to rebuild the engine, no cost to me. Well, its really not be right since.

About a month and a half ago, the Forester developed an over heating problem. I took it back to the dealer, they couldn't recreate the problem nor determine the cause. I inquired about the thermostat and water pump. They wouldn't even tell me whether they were checked or not. The Forester appeared to be running fine. I didn't notice the overheating either.

Two weeks ago the overheating is back. Took it back to the dealer. They were able to get it to overheat. Then I get a call from them and they have the engine pulled out (2nd time in less than 6 months) and they have found warping of parts and they've been sent out to be retooled. No explanation of the cause of the warping whatsoever. Actually, there is very little communication from the dealer at all.

I had a case file opened after the 60k incident and have updated it with the recent overheating issues. How many times do I have to have this engine rebuilt before someone finally decides that maybe a new one needs to be put in??

I'm totally frustrated and torked with this dealership. If this is the kind of crap I have to put up with than I will not be considering Subaru in the future when I need a new car.

That's it at a high level.

ohsubeguy

paisan

Maybe you should have brought it to a different dealer, don't blame SOA for what a dealership has done to your car. Not to mention you have way over the milage of warranty unless you mean you are dealing with an extended warranty.

-mike

p0926

Steve, you have a right to be frustrated. I'm guessing that part of Subaru's reluctance to replace the engine is because the root cause of the problem isn't a defective engine but an apparently botched dealer service. Of course that doesn't help you any. Hopefully Patti can look into your case when she returns from vacation.

-Frank P.

ateixeira

I agree that it's the dealer's responsibility, but SoA can help out, I believe, by putting pressure on them to get it right this time.

It probably was the water pump that failed.

Do you have a loaner in the meantime, while they work on it? If so, don't rush them, tell them to take their time and get it right. You want a well done job, not a rushed one.

They should communicate better with you, and that's what I would be arguing when I call 800-SUBARU3.

Their workmanship should be covered for a full year. That should give you time to gauge how well it's running once they fix it this time.

-juice

c_hunter

I agree you should be upset. Hang in there until Patti gets back -- she will do her best to resolve the issue. The dealer either owes you a warranteed rebuilt engine, a new engine, or a credit towards a new car.

Craig

c_hunter

Yep, I'll be freeing up a set of stock WRX wheels and tires sometime soon, and will probably put them up for sale on NASIOC. I see them for sale there all the time.

Craig