Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

subarusaleshou

The advertising fee is not limited to any one region. I don't know details about NE however here the fee is $275.

I have a different viewpoint on pricing and purchasing, not just since I've been on this side of the desk but for a long time. When I buy anything the seller is entitled to a fair profit on my transaction. It doesn't matter what any/everyone else's transactions are, each is an individual transaction and should stand on it's own.

They may have made tons of profit off the last 100 customers and could give me mine free and still have a strong bottom line. That doesn't matter. They may have given away the last 100 and need to make a fortune on mine. That doesn't matter. Fairness is what matters.

As a car buyer, I'll take the invoice figure from Edmunds and if there is any incentive subtract that amount. Then I add $500 and that's what I want to pay. I write that on a piece of paper and seal it in an envelope. I find the car I want and tell them I want it, I know how much I'm willing to pay, let's make it happen.

The fun starts then. I tell the sales person I have my number written on paper inside this envelope. I lay it on the desk and tell him to go to the manager and get me a good number. If his number is lower than my number I'm going to buy the car and pay my higher number. If his number is higher than my number I'm going to leave. If he comes back with a number lower than mine I open the envelope and give it to him. I tell him to go back to the desk and have it written up at my number.

Yes, I may pay an extra $100 or $200 but I don't get to that point unless the sales person is a good person who earned it. If I don't like the salesperson or store I'll leave. It costs me the price of a soda a day extra. BIG DEAL! I'm not some penny pinching, cheap, stingy, anal orifice. That sales person earns a little more money but guess what. THEY KNOW ME THERE. For as long as I go back they address me by name and they take GOOD care of me. My game amuses them and sticks in their mind. They know they will make a small but fair profit whenever I buy a car. GUESS WHO GETS GREAT SERVICE IN THE SERVICE DEPT? GUESS WHO GETS PREFERRED SHUTTLE SERVICE? ALL FOR THE COST OF A SODA A DAY!

stever

That sounds like more fun than the game the dealer plays where they throw the keys to your trade on the roof :-)

Are people really going to the service department so often that being on a first name basis with the shuttle driver is a real perk? Before my van went out of warranty, I might have gone to the dealer once a year.

Steve, Host

p0926

LD- That's an excellent philosophy. Wouldn't it be great if fairness was the prime consideration at every dealership (I guess you could argue that Saturn with its single price policy tries to abide by that principle).

-Frank P.

bluesubie

Kind of OT, but why is SNE showing the '05 Legacy on their home page?
http://www.subaruofne.com/flash_default.asp
A little misleading IMO.

-Dennis

rsholland

Good find! It looks like it has xenon headlights, like those in Japan.

Bob

subkid

that was exactly my thought. I don't want to be on the first name basis with the service personnel.

Nothing personal )

K

bluesubie

That pic is probably from SOJ and just a blatant attempt to get people in the showrooms now.

Poor '04 Legacy sales (ok, no more OT).

-Dennis

ateixeira

I agree with that standard of fairness. Maybe you'll never need repairs, but even for recalls and regular scheduled service, it's nice to just have a friendly salesman you can chat with while you wait.

Surely most people here have gone in for a recall at one time or another, right? I went in, had a chat, drove a 2.5GT to sample Shiftronic. He knew I was not buying, but gladly went with me anyway. Bought me a cup of coffee, too.

I've sent him a couple of references - three I think. It's a win-win scenario for both of us.

So Russia still gets a 2.0l turbo? Probably has for years, I bet.

I drove last year's Vue V6. I didn't particularly like the interior, but Saturn supposedly updated it for this year. The V6 was wheezy and coarse, so Honda's 3.5l V6 engine will be a huge improvement.

I have yet to drive one, but if they can tune the suspensions a lot sportier to match the new engine, and upgrade the interior substantially, it will be a contender. The old one was not good enough to even make my short list.

-juice

subarusaleshou

It's for the routine maint and 15/30/60k services etc. where it's a benefit, not a bunch of problem visits. I call up and never have trouble getting an appt when I want it. If it's a fairly major svc. the shuttle drops me first then takes the other people. The shuttle is back at the time I request to take me back for my car.

They've driven me down the road to a restaurant and picked me up an hour later which is not part of the service but something I get. It's cost me a few hundred bucks at most, with the emphasis on few. The convenience and VIP treatment are worth it.

I could squeeze a little more out of each deal, make it no fun for myself or the sales guy, finish and want some rolaids, and have maybe $200-300 more to call my own. I can afford $200-300 for whatever I want and I choose to use it to make this periodic transaction fun and painless. Then for the next few years I enjoy the special treatment and the look on others faces when they see how I'm treated. If I couldn't afford $200-300 more then I'm looking at the wrong car to begin with or have no business buying a car at that time.

ateixeira

If you really want VIP treatment, get a Gold warranty. Combine the two (good relationship w/dealer, plus the warranty) and you're set.

Our last loaner car? A Mercedes C240 4Matic station wagon.

Sadly, I think in most cases that relationship is adversarial, i.e. fix it or I'll sue, drop a nearly finished deal over $10 price difference, etc. Work with the dealer and IMO you'll achieve better results. At least that's worked for me.

-juice

PS Check "Inconsiderate Buyers" and you'll see what I mean

wzeiser

Believe me, I too am all for a fair profit, but my theory is that I expect it to be in some way commensurate with work and effort.

I buy a new car about once every five years. I enjoy doing the work: researching, testing the cars, and checking details on sites like this.

When this phase is over and I've decided what I'm going to purchase, then I call around to find out whose got one in stock. If I don't find what I want, I wait. If I do find one on the lot, I go test drive it, inspect it, explain my situation and make one offer--ordinarily at what I think amounts to a 1.5% profit--$300 on a $20,000 car. I feel I'VE done much of the work selling the car to myself and am therefore freeing the saleman up to sell to others.

As for servicing, I figure I'm going to end up paying through the nose for it anyhow.

ateixeira

Service is where the profits are. I think pressure on car prices has forced labor and parts prices up.

How else could they sell a WRX wagon for $20.4k (really) and then charge $92 per hour for labor?

-juice

hayduke01

Now that I'm on my fifth new car in my quarter century of new cars, I've found a dealer that I like.

When I was just looking nobody pressured me to buy NOW.

When I was ready to buy and the Forester was a finalist I was surprised to recieve an offer better than the one I expected to negotiate.

Employees appear to actually like their work! They are invaiably pleasant and competent.

And the dealer supports causes in the community that I support. (Never gave much thought to that until a Denver talk-show host used the Big Three's 9/11 donations to support a Buy American pitch. Now I realize that corporate Subaru and the local dealer are dong some good things in the community and beyond).

Never thought I'd say this, but when I buy my next car I probably won't seriously consider another dealer.

The dealer who's earned my loyalty and respect is Heuberger Subaru & Volkswagen, Colorado Springs, CO.

p0926

hayduke- I had a similar experience when I was shopping for my Forester. Thee was absolutely no pressure. The salesman merely gave me the keys and told me to go for a ride (no ride-along). When I got back he gave me his business card and simply told me to call when I was ready to buy. Then when I went back to buy, loaded down with printouts from Edmunds on what everything cost, and fully expecting some difficult and protracted negotiations, he tells me the price and I’m floored cause it's only a couple $100 over invoice for a new model. The entire staff was extremely competent. Most of the sales staff had worked there for years and when I took delivery I was taken back to the shop and introduced to their Subaru Certified Master Mechanic. The whole buying experience was like nothing I'd ever had before. I would love to recommend them but unfortunately it was a small family run operation which sold out last year :-(

-Frank P.

darbow

I had looked at 2 Subaru dealers in Southeast Pa. and enjoyed both dealerships, i think Subaru is heading in the right sales direction (fair pricing with honest salespeople). No pressure and one of the dealers did not ride along with me (which is scary for a 30's male motorhead driving a turbo WRX and Baja- yahoooooo!!!!). Now, im off to the Saturn Dealer to give the Vue a try, i will most likely go back to the XT and use my $500 off coupon i got off the internet from my various price request sites i used (the more you play around, the better incentives come your way ie: sign up for email lists etc....)

samiam_68

I emailed seven dealers in my area - This is the car I want, these are the options. First one that has it in stock and willing to sell at $100 over invoice gets the sale. I bought the car at $100 over invoice the next day. 2.5 XT MT Silver. This was back in the first week of August when the XT's were hot off the boats.

dnestr

juice- unfortunately a 2,5 non-turbo engine is only for Legacy and Out. Also a 3,0 in their PP is available.

wzeiser

Sounds like Subaru IS heading in a good direction. Now, if they'd only stock their dealers with some 5-speed XTs (Juice, note that I've pretty much settled on the XT). I called around to four dealerships. No go--only automatics.

Samiam, I might just try your approach; might as well let them go out and find one.

Darbow, where on the internet did you find an XT coupon for $500?

Still looking for an answer to why Edmund's TCO predicts the 4th year maintenance on the X to be $1000 more than on the XT. None of the dealers could explain it--one of them (in fact, the sales manager herself) said Edmund's is not "trustwothy source of up-to-date information."

Hmmm......

p0926

Walker- Hah! In the approx 4 years that I've been visiting Edmunds, I've found their new car figures to be indentical in almost every case to the actual prices set by the manufacturer. I think the TMV is also fairly accurate (although you can usually beat it if you haggle) and even the trade-in values are pretty reliable. And although I personally don't use the TCO feature, other's (Steve) obviously find it useful.

So it sounds to me like a case of sour grapes. That sales manager is probably just wishing for a return of the pre-Internet "good-ole-days" when a salesman could tell you practically anything and you had no way to independently verify it.

-Frank P.

wzeiser

Re: sour grapes--true that!

Your notes on Edmund's trade-in interest me. I've noticed the Edmund's TI value is generally higher than KBB and NADA--sometimes by as much as 25%. My take is that KBB is what dealers like (I think it's always the lowest), and Edmund's is what sellers like. I found the actual prices generally to be somewhere halfway between, and that the NADA figures are usually the closest.

Is this other people's experience?

subarusaleshou

We have four on the ground and I believe one more that has to go through PDI before it's logged. I would think there would be some everywhere. In a non turbo vehicle I see having a large percentage in automatic but in a turbo model a more even split seems the better way to stock inventory. Good luck with your search.

raybear

I've got a minor case right now. It seems some of the internet services haven't updated the invoice and MSRP pricing on Subies in a while.

Had a customer buy an Outback Limited last week, convinced I was making a killing off of him. The invoices were $680 apart, his vs. mine. Fortunately I pointed out he was also getting a $1000 rebate his service failed to mention to him.

He still thinks I made too much money, but admits I had the best price of the stores he shopped.

Oh, well!

troop2shos

Most dealers use other trade industry & auction sources for trade-in values for your region which are typically lower than NADA, KBB, etc. - especially if your vehicle is 5+ years old (will be wholesaled out - not necessarily kept on their lot). I picked-up an actual $2k extra on my Gen III SHO with a better discount buying my XT AT out of state.

cmuniz

We had over a foot of snow in western NC and the XT did just great. No problems with traction, except for once going up a snowy, twisting hill to our house. Every time I turned the wheel on a curve the car would drift a little. I finally figured out that the wheel wells were packed with snow and would rub the tires when I turned the wheel. It seems that the clearance between the tires and the mud flaps & wheel wells are less than in other vehicles I have had so there more of chance of this happening. Granted we had the perfect conditions for this to happen - roads were sprayed with salt, etc so they were slushy and the outside temp was around 20 degrees. I stopped and knocked the snow off and all was well again. I didn't notice any ice or snow stuck to the wheels themselves like some others have mentioned in similar conditions.

wzeiser

Funny that you should have that experience in the snow. When I was at a Honda dealer a couple of weeks back, the salesman tried to convince me that snow-packing in the wheel wells of the Forester was the "down-side" of Subaru's AWD system and that those kinds of problems do not happen in a CRV. So, he might have been right, but for the wrong reasons (the CRV's larger wheel wells, higher stance--not the AWD system--making the difference).

It sounds from what you said that this is not an uncommon experience. Is this true?

raybear

What can you expect from the Honda dealer? He hasn't got anything else to go on vs. the Forester!

Really, all cars can build up some snow inside the wheel wells. The long travel suspension in the Subaru may let you notice it more than on other cars.

kens

Sheez. Imagine that -- Snow-packing as a function of the AWD system! Any alloy wheel is susceptible to that phenomenon.

The only reason why you would see more Foresters with snow in their wheels is because the Subaru's AWD system enables you to travel farther in snow.

Silly Honda salesperson -- real snow driving is for full-time AWD systems, not part-time reactive systems like RT4WD.

Ken

p0926

Ken- LOL!

Walker- Re trade-in values: on my 01 Forester Edmunds was a couple hundred higher than KBB on the trade-in value, they were almost identical for the private party value but KBB was a thousand more for dealer retail! So I can see why dealers would prefer KBB :-)

-Frank P.

ateixeira

Dealers are independently owned, and frankly, hit or miss. I'm lucky to be close enough to about 7 different Subaru dealers, two I like a lot. At least two that I didn't like.

I'm sure it's no different with Honda, though perhaps since I haven't looked as much I have not found a local dealer I liked much. I've been to 3 for various test drives over the years.

-juice

psfod3

Last Monday I had a flat tire on my 03 Forester. At 8:00am. I called Subaru's road side assist number. I was told that it would take six to eight hours for someone to arrive and that I should call back after six hours and they would let me know the status of my call. Fortunatly I also have road side assist as part of my verizon cell phone service. I called that number and had someone over to change the tire within half an hour. I live in Middlesex county N.J. not in the woods of Maine. I think that a 6 to 8 hour wait to change a tire is totally unacceptable in a road side assistance program. Who is responsible for running that program?

grahampeters

G'day

It does rather beg the question why you think you should call Roadside Assistance to change a tyre. It is a fundamental skill for all drivers and most would consider it little more than an inconvenience.

I had suffered only one tyre failure in ten years but then had three in quick succession. I checked the time needed. It takes 5 to 10 minutes, requires only average strength and minimal mechanical skill. We are not talking brain surgery or macho man.

Perhaps if you ahd a genuine problem rather than inconvenience, it would take les time to get assistance.

Cheers

Graham

jbeckr

Hi everybody. This is a great board. We have had our Forester XS for 15 months now and love it. I was thinking of switching to a synthetic oil for the benefits to engine wear and improved gas mileage. We have 18,000 miles on the car now, using conventional oil. Any experience or thoughts about making the switch?

p0926

Graham- The same thought crossed my mind ;-) However, I suppose there are a number of reasons why changing the tire yourself wouldn't be the first option. The first that comes to mind is if it happened on one of our multi-lane metro interstate highways where changing a tire on the shoulder can be fatal (inattentive drivers will plow right in to you). Or if you were on your way to an event in formal attire, I can see where you'd want to avoid getting dirty (brings to mind that Paul Hogan Outback commerical about the wedding). Or, and I'm not accusing anyone here, Americans in general seem to be getting more and more lazy and expect everything to be done for them.

-Frank P.

mtngal

I can think of another reason - you try and can't break loose the lug nuts (because whoever put the tires on torqued them down too much). This happened to me with a pickup truck - I ended up stripping a post.

Another time I finally got the lug nuts loose, but only because I stood on the wrench and bounced a bit (I'm small and relatively agile - not a recommended method). That time I was about 10 miles from the closest paved road and probably another 15 miles to "civilization" and well out of cell phone range...

suydam

well you are just a wee bit judgmental, no? I personally do not know how to change a tire and I'm probably not going to learn. People are born with different skills, and mechanics isn't one of mine. That's probably why the person probably wanted roadside assistance in the first place. Rather than blame the victim, or call them lazy or stupid, I'd like to know about the inordinate amount of time. What if you're a single woman stranded by the side of the road? That's a really scary thought. I have AAA myself and I certainly expect them to show up if I have a problem. You're paying for the service one way or another; you should get it. Any other Subaru folks had experience with the Roadside Assist program?

bluesubie

No experience with it at home (also Middlesex Cty), but I used it in SC for locking my keys in the car. They came almost to the minute that they said (45 min.).

It all depends on the locally contracted garage. My wife used AAA (pre-Subaru roadside assistance days) near Princeton and got a 50 mile tow. That's something you won't get with Subaru R.A. (nearest dealer).

You should call Subaru and complain. I believe there's a function on the Roadside assistance line where you can take a survey.

-Dennis

wzeiser

Remainds me of a story about an old Pontiac LeMans a friend of mine gave me back in the early '70s. It had one of those power convertibles that--you guessed it--was stuck open. Not all that practical in New England at any time, much less winter.

Anyhow, I got a flat late at night, actually early in the morning, in a remote part of Vermont (not Maine, but not NJ either). This was pre-roadside assistance, cell phones, you name it. Went to change the tire and noticed there were only 4 lug nuts--why only 4, who knows? OK, so I broke one of them trying to get the nut off--I mean, I sheared it right off. So now there are only 3. Screw it, I said and found a can of intsta-fix in the trunk (a trunk that was secured? by pipe cleaners). Used the insta-fix (it worked) and promptly drove another 1500 miles on the car before pawning the car off on my roommate.

Ah, the halcyon days of youth.

subarusaleshou

I don't like changing flat tires or doing other mechanical things. While I have roadside assistance I will use it if needed. It's part of the package and I want it to work for me if I need it.

That said, what if roadside asst. or AAA is extremely busy and it will be a couple of hours or more until they can arrive? Worst case scenario it takes about 30-45 minutes to change the tire and clean up. Do you miss your kid's entire concert/game/whatever because you are stuck waiting a few hours on AAA and never learned to do the simplest of things for yourself?

That's not meant as a criticism of anyone, just a comment based on actual experience. We got stuck in the snow and had to wait on AAA. It was bad out and took about 3 hours. Now, I couldn't tow myself out but if I'd been waiting on flat service it would have been just as long.

Just something to think about.

mckeown

I needed a TOW in June 2001, Hot Night, Ignition module died in a Caravan 30 miles from home on Rt.287 near Rt. 80. Tow truck came in 15 minutes. On ride to my house, he told me he had 4 flats to get to, but since I was a CASH Customer, I came 1st. The next was a Chevy Venture as he will get $45 from their Roadside assistance program. The others were a Chrysler and 2 Fords. Each would pay him $25. So he Prioritized by payment.
Don't know WHO funded each Roadside assistance (Factory, Dealer, AAA, Independent), But made me think that like our Medical Insurances, we are now in line by our ability to pay and the amount, Not by Where we are or if we are in any eminent danger of nature (hot or cold), or where we broke down (along an interstate or inner city).
My $.02 and experiences.

lowellk

While at work a few months ago, one of my co-workers notified me that the right rear tire was flat on my '03 Forester. I took advantage of the fact that no one had yet parked next to my car and swapped out the flat for the spare. I had a heck of a time getting the lug nuts off--all five were over-tightened. I didn't have to dance on the lug wrench to get 'em off, but came close to it. Some yo-yo probably used an air impact wrench to tighten them when the tires were last rotated. I'll be sure to specify hand-tightening with a torque wrench to the proper spec. when I next take the car in for service.

As for twisting off wheel studs, I managed that not long after I bought a '47 Willy's CJ-2A from my dad. Went to swap out the narrow stock tires for the wider off-road set. The darn lug nuts wouldn't turn, so I tried harder. Still no joy, so I tried harder still. A wheel stud finally gave out, shearing off at its base. Thinking it a result of age and fatigue, and that I could temporarily get by without it, I tried to loosen another. After considerable effort, it too broke off. I made half-hearted attempt to get the others off, but finally gave up.

There was obviously something going on here that I didn't understand. I mean, I'd changed a few tires before but never before had such difficulty. So I consulted with my father, him that sold me the Willy's. Smiling, and with a mischievous gleam in his eyes, he squatted down by the damaged hub and bid me to take a closer look. Pointing at a mark in the end of one of the remaining wheel studs, a mark I had dismissed as an incidental result of manufacturing, he explained that it was a capital "L" and it indicated the wheel studs had left-hand threads, not right-hand threads as on most modern American autos. Dear old dad had quite a laugh once he saw that the penny had dropped: By turning the lug nuts counter-clockwise, I had been tightening not loosening them. Argh! He went on to explain that the two hubs on one side had left-hand threads, the two hubs on the other side had right-hand threads. That was certainly news to me!

A family friend, a metal-worker and welder by trade, was kind enough to replace all of the "L" wheel studs with right-hand threaded wheel studs for me so there'd be no chance of repeating that episode.

once_for_all

is fairly common. The "good" tire shops will use a torque wrench for the final snug, but some lug nuts will set up over time and the OEM wrenches won't break them lose without standing or stomping on the handle. This is a sure way of snapping a stud. In my experience, it is a good idea to carry a metal handle extension that will give you another 1-2 feet of leverage on the OEM wrench. I have even used schedule 80 PVC pipe, but be careful with this one. Note, the extension fits nicely in the Forester "umbrella" compartment in the rear.

Or, wait til roadside service comes.

John

ateixeira

Graham: I might agree but my wife might not.

FWIW, I re-torque any lugs done by a tire shop with the really long shaft torque wrench I have. If they are overtightened you'll have other problems, like with the brake rotors.

8 hours is unacceptable, you'd probably freeze to death by then. I wonder if you could call a tow company yourself and then get reimbursed.

The program is not run by Subaru, it's a 3rd party, I forget the name now. They basically compete with AAA.

Didn't Bob Holland run out of gas during a Baja test drive? IIRC they sent someone right away.

-juice

nygreg

carry a wooden board (or like) to place under the jack in case you are trying to change a tire (tyre for Graham) on dirt.

Greg

rsholland

Didn't Bob Holland run out of gas during a Baja test drive? IIRC they sent someone right away.

but it was only about 200 yards from the dealer.

Bob

ateixeira

Who came? Was it someone from the dealer, or the roadside assistance program? Prolly the dealer.

I just remembered, my wife had a slow leak in her front tire a couple of months ago. I actually patched it myself and never called the roadside assistance number.

Guess if it had not been a slow leak, my wife would have used them.

-juice

rsholland

sierratrip

Hey John, I thought that "umbrella" compartment on my Forester was a "fishing rod" compartment!!

But after reading your post I'm going to start stashing my umbrella there during these rainy winter months in San Diego. I can't believe I wasn't taking full advantage of this compartment before. Oh well, we anglers can be fairly
one-tracked in our focus!

Holiday cheer to all who frequent this board and provide such great info all year long!

Take care,
Donn

ateixeira

You mean it's not a fishing rod compartment? ;-)

-juice

wzeiser

Anyone heard of a wholesale used car index called something like "galvs." I heard about it and was told it was on line, but I can't find it. Forget it--I just got it. GALVES.

Reputable?

I just read their home page; they don't have much good to say about Edmund's.

tidester

One has to wonder about a merchant whose major selling point is badmouthing ALL consumer centered sites while catering to dealers. One also wonders why you even brought them up here.

Enough said.

tidester, host