Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

c_hunter

If my wife got a flat and I couldn't get out to help her, she'd probably call roadside assist. One of these days, I'd like to teach her how to change a tire and see if she feels comfortable doing it. First step would be buying a long wrench or torque wrench to keep in the car. If the lugs are on too tight, I can't even get them off with the stock stubby wrench that Subaru gives you.

If my wife's not comfortable doing it, I'd rather have her call roadside assist. It can be unsafe changing a tire on the side of the highway, and if she happened to do something wrong it could be trouble later on. So, I can definitely see how it's a valuable resource.

Craig

ballistic

Knowing how to do something, like changing a tire, and wanting to do it (maybe at night, maybe in a downpour) are two altogether different things.

If I'm paying for road service, I'll use it.

subarusaleshou

I agree completely there is a difference. I don't ever want to change a flat, regardless of circumstances. I also know how to change one and believe it is an important thing to know just in case. I guarantee I'm calling and I'll sit inside my locked vehicle until they arrive, unless I'm going to miss my daughter's concert or something else that matters more than the amount I don't want to change the tire.

psfod3

I am a 45 year old male who has never called anyone to change a tire for me my whole life. In July I hurt my lower back in a accident and I am in pain everyday, but that is not the point. The problem could of been related to the engine or the person could be 85 years old with the use of one arm. The issue is if you advertise road side assistance you should provide it. This was 8:00 am on a sunny day. The issue is with the road side assistance company not with the person calling them.

wzeiser

Thomas, Sorry for the offense, but unfortunately the Subaru dealers that I am dealing with say that they use the Galves pricing system, and I'm just trying to get information. As I see it, my best ammunition is knowledge, not opinion.

As a host, perhaps you can answer my query as to why in the TCO the Edmund's site lists the 4th year maintenance on the X and XS as almost $1000 more than the XT. No one I have dealt with--including dealers--has been able to shed light on that figure.

tidester

I don't know the answer. It is either correct or it is in error. Please use the Feedback Form as I'm sure our editors will appreciate any corrections you might provide or explain how they arrived at it.

tidester, host

wzeiser

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it a try.

ateixeira

I'm the opposite, I'd prefer to change a flat myself because that's the only way I'd be 100% sure the lugs are torqued properly.

Even when a shop does it, I re-torque them.

-juice

once_for_all

is my style for routine checking. When I rotate the tires, I am looking for tire problems, wheel bearing play, brake pad wear, cracks in the brake hose, etc. Further, I know whether the lugs were put on too tight or if there is a lose one. As a farmer, I know I need specialists for the complex stuff, but ultimately the farm success/failure is my bag. Same deal for my car, tractor, what have you. Roadside assistance for me is great for certain things and not needed for others.

John

ballistic

I'd prefer to change a flat myself because that's the only way I'd be 100% sure the lugs are torqued properly.

Genuine curiosity, and prior similar comments, impel me to ask: What has led to this degree of concern on this topic?

In 44 years of driving, I've had only one single problem related to whether a wheel was mounted correctly, and that one was my stupid fault. I'd bought expensive, wide Pirelli P7 tires for my RX-7, and they were just too close to the struts for my comfort. So I bought 1/4" thick spacers to move the wheels out slightly. A week or two later, just after enjoying the P7's phenomenal lateral limits, one front wheel came off. It was obvious the spacers didn't leave enough threads engaged on the stock studs, and several pulled out on that wheel. Fortunately, the only consequence was a rush-hour traffic jam and some expensive body repair.

Other than that, I've never had any problems with wheel mountings, whether I did it or a shop did. They always use air wrenches; I've never used a torque wrench on lug nuts. I pretty much tighten them as much as I can and call it good. What problems have I caused that went undiscovered?

wzeiser

I originally came on the Subaru site to compare the Forester X and the Honda Element. Since then I have decided on a Forester, and am now trying to decide between purchasing the XT or the XS (in the MT). I have become increasingly concerned about the XT's shortcomings--most significant: (1) the gearing is annoying, both from a standstill and at highway speeds, (2) from what I gather, the gas mileage seems to be less than predicted, (3) no moonroof available, (4) cheap tires. If what I'm reading here is right, these are common concerns. I also agree with the plusses.

I know the XS comes with a moonroof and the tires are no better. But is the XS gearing better, and does it get the 22/28 as predicted?

ateixeira

Look at the number of complaints about warped brake rotors, then note that I've never been one of them. ;-)

You'll give up about 4mpg from an XS to an XT, plus you have to use premium.

If I were shopping today, have no doubt, I'd choose the XT. And I'm a cheap skate.

-juice

ballistic

Look at the number of complaints about warped brake rotors, then note that I've never been one of them. ;-)

The section of the hub where the lug bolts (or studs) go is far thicker and stronger than the thinner rotor itself. Deferring to your greater knowledge on the subject, how do overtorqued lug nuts cause rotors to warp? And if a shop applies an air wrench to all of the lugnuts, they'll all be overtorqued by about the same amount, so again it's not clear to me how that would affect the rotors.

I'm inclined to view a lug-nut torque spec as a minimum value (for safety sake), rather than a practical maximum.

ateixeira

I think it's mostly from unevenly torqued lugs, i.e. one lug tighter than another. That would pull at the brakes unevenly. Add heat and it could warp.

If they use air tools, it's hard to be accurate unless they use torque sticks.

-juice

c_hunter

Contrary to popular belief, you can't evenly torque lugs without a torque wrench (or some other means of sensing torque) though I imagine you may be able to come fairly close. However, the real issue is over-torqueing. If you tighten them "all the way" or blindly whale on the lugs with an impact wrench, they will be way too tight. This could cause snapped lugs (going on or coming off later) and will cause stress concentrations on the rims, hubs, and rotors. When the rotors heat up, the stress concentrations can lead to warping. So, it really pays to have the lugs properly torqued.

I used to overtighten everything before I got a torque wrench. What felt right was way too much. I didn't realize this until I got the wrench.

Craig

paisan

I think the subies call for 73lbs, I always do 80lbs. Whenever I do 73lbs the lugs come loose withing 25-50 miles.

-mike

c_hunter

If I remember right, Subaru calls for 58-72 ft-lb, and I split the difference at 65 (I'm sure the torque wrench is not that accurate but oh well). Never had one come loose yet.

Craig

stever

We had a similar problem recently comparing Element TCO with the similar CR-V. We'll also mention your question to the data people so they can look at the issue. Thanks!

Steve, Host

wzeiser

As suggested I sent off a note re: TCO XT/XS to the "feedback forum". It's not likely to influence my decision, however, especially since I'm already leaning heavily towards the XT. Nonetheless, I appreciate any help.

ateixeira

70 ft-lbs here and never had a problem. Also, you're supposed to have the wheels on the ground, weighted, when you torque the lugs. Some shops (most) tighten them while the car is up on the lift.

-juice

setzer

Subarus are nice cars and are pretty reliable, but the bad thing is that there is no leg room in the back. I've ridden in a Forester and Outback, and they both were short on leg room compared to competitors.

ateixeira

Check out the front seats, though - lots of leg room. I'm 6" and with the seat all the way back I cannot fully depress the clutch.

Move it up an inch, and suddenly the back seat's not so bad. Most people have lil' tots back there anyway.

-juice

ducktapeguy

Ok, I know this has been covered many times before, but the search function doesn't return any results. Anyway, after a fun weekend rallying, it's time for a new winshield. I think a stray rock must've hit mine and started a crack right below the passenger side wiper, and now that crack is slowly spreading in front of me. How much should I expect to pay for a new winshield, and is there anything I need to know (or let the winshield guys know) before I change it? I know our cars have the defroster thing for the wipers, but I don't mind getting one without it because I've never used it. And can anyone recommend a good place in California?

ateixeira

First, check if your insurance covers it. In MD it is covered, under Comprehensive Insurance.

If not, the L or X models take a plain windshield. I think Carlex is the OEM for it. The S and XS/XT models are pricey because they have a wiper de-icer element on them.

Good luck.

-juice

p0926

Carlex is OEM across the board. Several states require windshield replacement coverage with zero deductible so definitely call your insurance company. The de-icer really runs the cost up (somewhere near $1k) so if you end up buying it yourself getting the plain version will save you several hundred dinero.

-Frank P.

wzeiser

Common sense, economy, and styling (not to mention marital harmony) have prevailed. The XS it is! I don't think I'll regret it; the XS 5-speed is a fun car in its own right, and I have saved enough to have the premium audio, moonroof, and after-market leather seats installed and still come out under the XT. Sorry, Juice, I too feel a bit of a loss, but I think it's a lot better than the Element!

Happy Holidays to all! Thanks for the help.

paisan

The forester does have small room, but there is pretty much no competition for the legacy. Unless Honda and Toyota started offering AWD sedans or wagons in the past few days I was away on vaca.

-mike

ateixeira

Let us know when you nab one, Walker. What color?

I think while we all like to drive like Petter once in a while, for commuting the efficient XS running on regular will suit you just fine.

-juice

c_hunter

Sounds like a good plan. 5-spd Foresters are a blast to drive. So, are you going for the factory sunroof (premium package) or going aftermarket for that? Packaged up like that, the Forester will be a heck of a lot nicer than the Element.

Let us know when you get it, and share some pics!

P.S. I vote for silver, that's the color of my wife's XS and it really is a looker (she's OK too!).

Craig

wzeiser

Juice and Craig: It will be a Platinum Silver XS 5-speed w/premium audio and grey (aftermarket) leather seats. I rather like the two-tone, so I am thinking about putting in the moonroof aftermarket as well--one that would be smaller but would have a tilt feature. It's the same company that would do the seats, and I've seen their work (quite good). However, I'm unsure about how wise that is for resale, etc. Any advice? I'm ordering it tomorrow.

c_hunter

Well, I know Juice has gotten several aftermarket sunroofs that look pretty good. As long as they don't compromise the structural integrity of the car, it seems like a good way to go. The most important thing to me is to have a good shop lined up to do the work, and it seems like you have that covered.

All the silver XS models I have seen have been monotone (=premium package) which looks real cool to me. Have not seen a single silver in two-tone. I guess I would go with monotone myself, since it has the look of the XT (but I actually like the XS wheels better). My wife has a spoiler on her Forester, and I like the look of that too:



Craig

ateixeira

Yes, I have a pop-up moonroof in my Forester, and my wife's Legacy has a power moonroof, both aftermarket.

One caveat - her moonroof malfunctioned once when the battery was disconnected (for servicing/cleaning). It was fixed under warranty with no hassles. Just use a reputable shop, with them (Adler & Mandell, ASC certified) it was "no questions asked", they just fixed it.

Neither has ever leaked, the warranty for that is lifetime on both. The power mechanism is lifetime but you have to service it every 2 years (lube it, basically). Ours was less than 2 years old.

-juice

once_for_all

you have made a wise, practical choice. My silver XS has been super, and yes you will get at least 28 on the highway. I average 27-28 during the winter, 70/30 highway city. I still get the crazy boy desire for an XT, but I have never lacked for power anywhere with the XS.

John

wzeiser

Thanks for the feedback. I'm going with the base XS (platinum silver over steel grey) 5-speed with the premium audio. I'll add the leather seats and the sunroof after market. Can't wait.

dnestr

Craig- does it really help to keep the window to be clean? Just think to buy something similar to this.

c_hunter

I don't know if it keeps the window clean or not -- they sell a different deflector that is supposed to specifically do that (it's black, made of a tinted/formed plastic sheet).

The spoiler may have some aerodynamic benefit, but it's 99% cosmetic in my opinion.

Craig

njswamplands

russski

Dnestr,
This is, probably,what you want

http://subaru.com.au/explore/forester/accessorydetail.asp?item=17- 058&accessory=18383

Vitaly

dnestr

Thanks, that's what I exactly need. Vitaly, probably you remember our nasty weather and muddy roads in winter. That's why I spend 5 liters(4,5 qt) of windshield washer fluid in two days. So I'm ordering it tomorrow.

dnestr

Craig- they look nice. But I'm curious, do the mud flaps have any special supple paint? In winter I flap unpainted mine which are made of a lithe plastic to throw the muddy snow off before to park my car in a lock-up garage. Can the paint chap if you do like this?

rsay777

18" inches of snow on the ground here in the Mountain West. The X is going anywhere I point it. I'm sore from helping my neighbors dig out. Happy new year of driving all. Bob L.

c_hunter

They come like this from the factory, and it appears they have used a flex agent in the paint (similar to what's on the bumper covers). Seem pretty flexible to me, and they have been holding up well -- no chips or cracks in the paint.

Craig

10years

rsay777 - thanks for the snow driving update. Are you running the stock Geolanders, if not whad ya got? I plan on keeping them on my X AT until they wear out.

Although we have not had the snow depth you've had we've had snow/ice conditions none the less. Since the Geolanders are only B traction rated I pretend I have front wheel drive only; probably a good idea in any case. On one recent snowy icey morning commute I successfully negotiated a somewhat lengthy obstacle course of vehicals spun out, side swiped, bumper based, and on their side. One new mega SUV was wheels up off the road. The X held steady. Be careful out there all.

stever

About your TCO question where we list the 4th year maintenance on the X and XS as almost $1000 more than the XT.

The price difference problem with the Forester is due to a error in the database. The non turbo models have a tire replacement in the 4th year but the Turbo does not. The data people have corrected the database and it should display properly after the next site update.

Thanks for noticing!

Steve, Host

dtrickett

We blew a tire on our 2003 Forester XS. I'm trying to find a replacement for the OEM Yokohama Geolandar G900 and so far the only place has been the dealer, who quoted a price of 115. Anyone know of a good place in Massachusetts (Boston) that would have the tire ?

p0926

Dan- Well that sucks. Any idea what happened?

TireRack has them for about $100 with shipping but they're on back order so $115 from the dealer isn't too bad. What about using the spare and buying an el cheapo replacement spare? The Kumho Ecsta HP4 716 is half the price and actually has a better consumer rating.

-Frank P.

ateixeira

Yeah, do that. For now, get a can of Fix-a-Flat, just in case. Or even a tire patch kit (I carry one).

-juice

ballistic

What about the no-more-than-1/4" circumference difference between largest and smallest tire? Depending on how many miles Dan's put on his 4 road tires, the unused spare could easily exceed the tolerance limit.

ateixeira

Well, it's a 2003, so it probably has not many miles on it. We should not have made that assumption, though - if you have more than 15k miles or so, I'd measure.

-juice

p0926

I was going to mention it but made the same assumption as Juice. I'm also a bit skeptical of that narrow a tolerance and question which was the greater influence in determining it, mechanical or legal?

-Frank P.