Sean-- my $.02: I don't think you have to be worried about finding parts or knowledgeable service techs anywhere in the US or the world for that matter, for Subaru or any of the Japanese manufacturers anymore. Years ago, maybe, but not now. As far as Foresters being more costly to repair than a Tribute? --naw, I don't buy it. First of all, remember, a Tribute will definitely have a tendency to break down or need attention more than a Subaru ...afterall, it's a Ford! And believe me, If you tried to buy, say, an alernator from a Mazda dealer (or the same part from a Ford dealer) you'll definitely pay "the price!" My hunch is that if you actually compared the price of an alternator at a Subaru dealer and then priced an alternator at a Mazda/Ford dealer, the price would not be that much different. As an experiment, if I can find the time, I might just try that!
Remember, the Forester has proven reliability and is at the end of its production cycle so Subaru has had the time to have the majority of the "bugs" worked out. The Tribute/Escape's reliability is still unproven since it's a new model but look what happened when it was first introduced; how many recalls did they have??? The Forester is also assembled in Japan which is a slight plus IMO as far as initial quality and attention to detail in assembly goes. Although I love the looks of both the Escape and the Tribute, I just don't want to take the chance with their future reliability. The Forester looks so "frumpy" but I'm sure it will tend to be trouble free for many years to come.
I'm a little nervous right now because I've put a deposit down on a Forester and don't really know if I'm getting that good a deal on it yet. Since none of the regulars here are responding to my previous posts, maybe I can ask you about what kind of pricing are you experiencing there in Florida on Foresters if you've gotten that far?
Ok, Sean, let us know what you decide and good luck.
Sean-- Here's an excerpt from a review by Colin Hefferon for "About Cars" to back up what I previously said about the Forester's reliability:
"...Nevertheless, the Forester should be cheaper to own than many vehicles in its price class mainly because Subarus have traditionally retained a high residual value (which makes up for an awful lot of extra gas used); and because Subarus are so well engineered and well built, they generally need fewer repairs as they age than comparable cars.
The British marketplace is reported to be the most competitive in Europe and probably the most competitive in the world. Subarus topped the latest British JD Powers survey, widely accepted as a good measure of build quality."
Let me know if you want the link to the entire article.
I appreciate your feedback, Scirocco22. I am visiting the only Subaru dealership in this area (Ft. Walton Beach) tomorrow. Like I said, I know it's a very well built vehicle. I wish there was a dealership closer than 35 miles from my home. However, I'm sure other people are in the same boat. I'll let you know how the test drive/pricing went!! Have a great week...
They look quite similar. Platinum has more pronounced metallic grain which nicely "sparks" on the sun. Silverthorn is more fine-grained and gives a little smoother impression. Silverthorn has a hint of yellowish hue in it, while Platinum is more greyish. Overall, I've would have chosen Platinum (like the larger metallic grain) if it was available for MY 2001.
It's an old myth that Subarus are more expensive to fix and harder to work on than most brands. As someone who owns Subarus since 1992, I can tell you it's absolutely not true: parts reasonably priced and are readily available from variety of suppliers. Check subaruparts.com, for instance.
As far as Forester vs Tribute reliability, check the Tribute/Escape Problems thread. So far, Tribute was not exactly a 100% success, although it's a neat package (room, power, price). Fuel odor which a lot of Tribute/Escape owners seem to experience, would have driven me crazy, plus many recalls and other problems.
I'm just bought a 2002 L and am experiencing a problem that the dealer says is ok. When it rains heavily or I wash the car I notice that water droplets actually get in between the window and the rubber moulding on the inside. The dealer says this is normal because the Forester has no door frame along the sides of the window. Why did Subaru do design it this way. What possible advantage is there in doing this. Wouldn't this even offer you less protection in a crash.
Anyway, can this water that I describe do any damage. Should I escalate this to another level?
One other thing, I was assured when I bought the L that the rear drum brakes were far superior to what I had been used to. I brought it back for the installation of the diff protector and asked that the brakes be checked since they felt a bit spongy. They adjusted the rears and it's better but they told me that it's not tru that the rears adjust themselves when you go in reverse. I was told this has to be manually done every 7500 miles. I wish I had been told the truth on this previously.
Thanks,
P.S. Scirocco, I too like the two tone better than the monotone. The monotone seems to make the vehicle look too boxy from the side view.
Frameless window seemed strange to me too when I bought my first Subaru (Loyale model) in 1992. However, I never experienced any problems with frameless. By now, I'm so used to frameless windows and that "sporty" feel they give that doors with frames seem too heavy and clumsy to me. I too noticed a few droplets of water getting between rubber seal and glass on my Forester, but was told it's ok. However, my older Subaru did not have that problem. We'll see. I guess, if your window start getting wet inside from carwash or rain, than it's a real problem.
As for drum brakes, on my old Loyale they had to be adjusted only after 75K mi. On my Forester S+ I have rear discs, so cannot comment on this.
Spongy feel of break pedal is pretty typical for Subarus. I had a very soft pedal on old one, and have somewhat muschy-feeling pedal on a new one. I was told, it's because a dual-stage power braking technology is good. While I'd personally prefer a more precise brake feel, stopping distance is good, so I guess I can live with it.
The window track can be adjusted. Water should not be leaking in like that. Even with a 1300psi pressure washer mine never leak. Ask them to look again or try a more knowledgeable dealership.
tex: try it out - the rear headrests can be leaned forward (1998-2000 Foresters). They are interchangeable with the fronts, which do not tilt forward.
Resale is indeed very good. I paid $19,200 back in 1998, and they're selling for around $15k. That's 78% of the original price I paid, remarkable IMO. Go price a used Cherokee and see if it held its value as well (fat chance).
I disagree with the "so-so" quality compared to Jeep's unknown quality. Forester has proven itself with total quality awards from Strategic Visions, a top three finish with JD Power, and better than average long-term scores with Consumer Reports.
The Liberty is new, but look at the Grand Cherokee, Jeep's previous new product, and quality was dismal. The V6 for the Liberty is based on that engine family, and Jeep has had poor scores for years and years.
IIRC Consumer Reports had them at the bottom as a group, while Subaru was 7th best behind Honda, Toyota, and Nissan (plus their 3 luxury name plates).
Night and day. Very good, proven long-term quality vs. unknown but historically awful quality.
Don't get me wrong - I like the Liberty a lot, and Jeeps are about as fun as you can get. Let's just not lose sight of the facts. I don't like that you can't get full-time 4WD with a manual tranny and the V6, and ABS isn't standard even on the top-of-the-line Limited model. I hate the way they package them, basically.
Jeep's packaging leaves a lot to be desired. Everything juice said about the "content" (or lack-there-of), I agree with.
I do think the Liberty is going to go a long way in terms of changing Jeep's reliability reputation. It's a clean-sheet design, and computer-designed from the get-go, with a new super high-tech factory—none of which any previous Jeep model had access to.
I'm not saying there won't be any teething problems. But I suspect there will be few, and easily fixed.
I'd bet Liberty will be plagued with problems, and will make many loyal Jeep owner to scream for return of Cherokee. Not that Cherokee was totally trouble-free, but it was better than Grand Cherokee, reliability-wise.
Michael-- Yes, that's exactly what I don't like about the monotone scheme. I wish the sunroof and side air bags were an option for the base S. It would make this decision a lot easier.
Kate-- Thanx much for your description of the differences in the '01 and the '02 silver colors. I originally thought that the platinum was a little darker shade of silver but I guess I'm wrong.
juice-- Your point about the Forester retaining its value is well taken --thank you. The research I've done so far is that the Forester will have a little higher resale than an OB but I don't know by how much. Also your advice over on the OB board is right on... I guess I can always "upgrade" to an OB later if I find the Forester no longer meets my needs :>
Well folks, I guess I'm now leaning a little more towards the Forester than the OB but still a little leary as to the "deal" I'm getting. I'm hearing that Foresters in some parts of the country are selling for below invoice as well as OB's. Maybe a little more haggling is in order. *ugh* I despise that, lol. Thank you all for yor feedback ...back to more number crunching.
Oh, can I get anyone to comment on this: the dealer that I've given a deposit is quoting me an installed price for the "performance gauge pack" of $850. That's really pricy compared with an aftermarket set-up that I've seen over on i-club which the WRX owners are installing but I don't know if I want to hassle with after-market installations. Yes, the Subaru gauge pack looks cheap but it is covered under the b2b warranty and if it functions properly then that's all I want. Other dealers are quoting up to $1,200 for the same installation. Is there anyone here that has had the OEM gauge pack installed?
Also, any comments on the retained value of after-market leather?
$175 over invoice is a very good deal provided invoice is just that: an invoice, with no padded charges.
Scirrocco: depending on the lighting, Platinum may look a bit darker because it's more greyish as opposed to slightly yellowish hue in Silverthorne. On the sun, it sparks more than Silverthorne, and looks more upscale, IMO.
Bob: I hope so. My dad's earlier experience with Jeeps has him soured, so I doubt he'd try one. That would be a shame if the Liberty does turn things around for Jeep.
They're not for me, though. I just don't like trucks, even the ones that try to be car-like.
The price for the gauges is (IMHO) high. I'd spend my $850 on a Borla cat-back, an UR pulley, and an Amsoil air filter, a 18mm rear sway bar, and a front strut tower brace. You'd still have some change, even.
I own a 1998 Forester L which has not had any problems. However my tires are in need of replacement. The original set only has 29,000 miles on them. I am wondering what other people have put on their Foresters when replacing the original tires. I am also wondering whether I should go with regular passenger car tires or ones specifically for light truck/SUVs. If I went with SUV tires I would want ones which were made mostly for on-road or highway driving. I would appreciate any opinions. Thanks
I have an '01 L and just recently (very recently) upgraded to 16" rims and 215x60 tires.
For tires, I went with Yokohama Avid T4's. These are very comfortable "touring" tires - much better grip/handling than the high profile (70 series Duelers) but with very smooth and quiet ride. My goal for upgrading was to reduce noise and improve handling. The Avids and larger rim did this for me.
Light truck tires will give you better snow traction, but not necessarily better wet weather traction. I find the oem Duelers to be very prone to hydroplaning. They are (supposedly!) built a little stronger for off-road use. Light truck tires will also generally be noisier on the highway and even noticeable at low speed. The one thing I noticed with the new tires when slowing to a stop is how silent they are, the Duelers produced lots of road noise.
Passenger car tires will give a smoother ride, be quieter, and generally wear longer than LTs. One thing to ensure is that any replacement tire should meet the oem load and speed rating (95 and 'S' for Forester L). Snow traction is reduced, but you have to balance that against (1) how much snow you have to deal with and (2) the fact that AWD with decent all-season tires is probably enough for normal snow conditions.
If you haven't already done so, checkout www.tirerack.com for tire surveys and generally good information about tires.
Well I finally went to dealership and test drove the Forester. While I really like the styling and handling, the vehicle is not designed for people taller than 6 ft. (I'm 6' 2")... unless you have no children and want to use the back seat for storage. Don't get me wrong, I went in with very high expectations. The sales person had me test drive a Outback which is much roomier. I just don't like the looks of the Outback as compared to the Forester. Just a thought from "disappointed in FL"....
Hello to everyone - we are new to the discussion and everyone seems to be very helpful to each other - just looking for advice... We have just started our search for a Forester, probably an "S", and are hoping to buy before August. We are 2 hours from the nearest dealer, which seems to be in St. Louis. Does anyone have any experience with dealerships in St. Louis (there are 3 there)? Or would Clarksville, TN, or Columbia, MO be near any of you? Would you recommend trying to get a 2001 (they are advertising 2.9% financing on 2001 models, but the first dealership we contacted doesn't have any left) or going for a 2002 model? Any general advice on pricing or how to approach this venture? Thanks so much for your help!
Thank you to everyone who took the time to answer some of my questions! I think I'm going to go ahead and go through with my intended purchase of the Forester S-premium in platinum silver. After further negotiations I was able to get the price down a little further. The car is in transport to the dealer and should arrive sometime in the next few weeks. I'm still a little apprehensive because as I've said before, I really like the looks of the OB more but the features and the price of the Forester have finally won, lol
Frank-- Yes, those prices you gave were what I was kind of expecting when first starting to shop for a Forester. Then I ran across a local dealer that was offering an internet price of a flat rate over invoice for any Forester and I thought that was a pretty good deal. When I started doing more research, reading message boards and talking to more people, I found that in some parts of the country they are selling Foresters for under invoice. So I started questioning whether I actually was getting a good price or not. I wish it wasn't such a difficult task to determine exactly what a certain model of car has been actually selling for in ones own local area ...and yes, I did make sure there were no other "add-ons" --the dealer's invoice figures and the figures I gathered from both Edmunds and Carpoint did match exactly! ...just tax and license to be added. Thank you very much for your input.
Kate-- Sounds good! I wish they offered it in a charcoal color. I think the monotone color scheme looks better in the darker colors. I was hoping that the new platinum was quite a bit darker than the old silverthorn but I guess it will have to do. I saw an '01 base S model the other day in the green and titanium color and it was very sharp looking. One of the reasons I decided to go to the premium model is because the '02 base S model changed the lower cladding color to "graystone" and it doesn't look nearly as good as the MY'01 titanium did, IMO I appreciated your comments, Kate, thanx!
juice-- wow! you mean I can actually have all that done for less than $850?? I've been considering adding a Borla cat-back and heavier sway bars to my Audi and it sounds like I might be looking at a much more reasonable price to mod the Forester! And yes, I did take a look at i-club to see what kind of gauge packs people were installing on WRX's and I'm sure I could have it done after-market for a lot less money but by further negotiations, I got the dealer to knock off a few more $$$ on the OEM gauges so I think I just may have them do it. I'm not that much of a performance freak but I've always wanted gauges in the cars I own and find it so disappointing that just about all manufacturers have switched to "idiot lights."
Jim-- Did I read that right??? You like the looks and the styling of the Forester more than the OB??? wow! ...that makes me feel a little better! I'm of the opposite opinion; I just don't like the looks of the Forester as compared with the Outback, lol, but maybe it'll grow on me in time! But it sounds like the OB will better suit your needs. Let us know what you finally decide.
Don and Jennifer-- If you've been reading my posts the last few days, you can see that I'm pretty frustrated in trying to figure out just how much negotiating room there is on a Forester. Most of us don't buy new cars that often so we're really at a disadvantage when negotiating with a dealer. This will be the second new car I will purchase this year and you'd think I'd have learned a few things the second time around but I seem to be making the same mistakes all over again, lol. This will be, I think, the eighth new car that I've purchased through the years and everytime I tell myself that I'm going to do my homework and really negotiate a good deal but, for some strange reason, it's easier said-than-done when you're right up against it. I really despise this negotiation process. I'm thinking that life would be so much simpler if all manufacturers went to the Saturn type pricing structure but I know that some people really enjoy haggling but to me it is emotionally draining and frustrating. But anyway, here's my $.02 on a starting point: Configure your car on both the Edmunds TMV calculator and at www.carsdirect.com. Doing this will give you some idea of what the car, configured as you like, is "selling" for in your area. Now, my experience tells me that a Forester is going to sell for much less, by some negotiation on your part at a dealership you choose, than either the Edmunds TMV or what carsdirect can acquire one for you. But the figures you derive from Edmunds and carsdirect will give you some kind of idea of what price you should not exceed in your negotiations for it is an "average" price (or perhaps a better term would be "median" price) that the car might be selling for in your region. My research and recent experience tells me that some dealers in some areas are letting Foresters go for close to invoice price. This will probably take a little negotiating on your part and by maybe pitting one dealer against another but IMO still "doable." Another alternative is to use a service like Priceline.com where dealers bid amongst themselves for your business. And yes, I've also found that there are very few 2001's left in my area too. Whew! sorry to be so long winded. Good luck and let us know how it goes!
To Schnick, I have a 2001 Forester I that I purchased 4 months ago and I love the vehicle. It has loved up to all of my expectations. I live 40 miles from the nearest Subaru dealership but that causes no concern for me as I do my own oil changes and I will utilize a local garage for my scheduled maintenance. I have over 11,500 miles on this vehicle already and there has been absolutely no surprises. What does surprise me is your statement about if you are over 6'-o" this is not the vehicle of choice. I am 6'-3" and I admit my children are grown but this vehicle has more leg and head room then my Taurus had and the only constraint I feel is width wise as I weigh 225 abs. I just recently traveled three hours with five adults in this vehicle and yes I pushed the drivers seat up and I did not feel cramped and the rear seat passengers were comfortable. Granted I would not want to drive two days like that. Just my two cents worth here
A friend just bought a Toyota (I tried, but I couldn't sell the idea of buying a Subaru). I tried to get a quote for her from autobytel.com. Although there are 3 Toyota dealers in our immediate area, the Autobytel dealer was 60 miles away. They said he would call. He didn't. She called him and left a message. Call not returned after 3 days. One of the local dealers got the sale. Even if the autobytel dealer had called and made a better deal, I doubt that it would have been worth buying from a dealership so far away.
Even though I personally prefer Forester for looks, you'd feel better if you went with a car you really love --which is OB, right? Forester is probably a bit better value, but you can also get a wonderful deal on OB, and there's added room, quietness and comfort in OB. You decide.
Hey, I made a rhyme! Anyway, I agree with rsheldon1 on the room in the Forester. I also am 6"3", but weigh in at 265. Having been around for more than half a century, I also have the obligatory bad back which causes leg problems. There are some cars I can't even get into let alone drive because of not being "limber" anymore.
I actually was amazed when I first sat in the Forester. Since I don't use the rear seat very often, I wish they offered a 2 door so the front doors would be larger, but I fit.
For me it's the headroom. I can sit bolt upright with the seat knobs turned all the way up, and still not feel like the roof is too close. I could even drive like that and not have to crane my neck down to see out the windshield. I don't drive like that but what a treat just to be able to do it. Even in my wife's S+ with the moonroof there is plenty, and this is not true of any other vehicle I have sat in with a factory power roof where the panel comes into the car.
Legroom, well I could always use more, especially with my size 13W feet, but I can drive this vehicle and have a place for my left foot to rest (5MT). There could be more space between the gas and brake because I occasionally hit the gas while also applying the brake. Instead of "heel/toe-ing" it's like "left side of foot/right side of foot-ing".
I don't sit in the rear, you couldn't make me, but my wife who is a "short" 5'10" (she hates it when I call her short) has sat behind me without me having to change my driving position... it's not that I didn't offer, just didn't need to, and oh, there was someone in the front with me, she doesn't HAVE to sit in the back. (slap incoming)
The width is a problem in my 5MT when I have a "large" passenger who wants the armrest and I need to shift. I have no problem when driving my wife's automatic with the same passenger. I also have no problem when my wife is the passenger in either vehicle. (Had to say that, didn't want another slap.)
Overall I find the room quite adequate for my use, especially when I consider that I can haul my large carcass practically anywhere with confidence, for about $20K, getting 23MPG or so, in almost any weather here in New England, AND have fun doing it.
Just picked up my Blue Ridge Pearl '01 S with after market leather. Gotta say it was love at first sight (since I bought the car sight-unseen). The leather is gorgeous and I doubt you could tell the difference between it and the factory installed leather. I'll get the windows tinted and also have something done to improve the sound system (probably an amplifier) later this week, but today I'm ecstatic. I also sold my old car today (94 Honda Accord), so it's a banner day all around.
Scirrocco, in case you're still wavering, I went with the S because I didn't like the monotone paint and I wasn't really thrilled about the color selection. I've had a white car for the last 7 years, and a black car for 6 years before that, so I wanted something different. I also wanted leather, so the blue S with after market leather fit the bill. I also got the car for 4% over invoice, which was my credit union's negotiated price, which made my buying experience a dream. So I think the price you're getting is great, but be sure this is the car you want.
We have Volvo wagon, so I didn't need the size offered in the Outback, and I like the look of the Forester better, so it was a no-brainer. Once I decided *against* all the other small SUV's, and believe me, over the last 3 years that I've been shopping, I've driven them all, the Forester won out, and I'm not disappointed (after 2 hours of ownership).
Gotta go run errands so I can drive my new Stubby!
aj
ps... thanks to whoever first called their Forester "Stubby".... I love that nickname....
The rumors regarding my alien abduction were .. just rumors - I'm back! The last few weeks have been insane at work. I'd quit but I'm the only one here. Now that I've found the top of my desk, maybe I can spend a little time here once in a while.
Had to put new shoes on (Lynn's car)the Forester. (Still can't get used to that) With only 27.5k miles, the Geo's were gone-o. The outer 2" of tread was gone on all 4 tires. Ah .. maybe Juice was telling the truth about my driving .. nah .. had to be an alignment problem. Anyway, I replaced the Geo's with Goodyear Aqua-Tred 3's. Supposed to be a "well balanced" tire .. we'll see. Anybody have any experience with them?
All right! Another AJ among us (those are also my initials, and the name I use day-to-day). Congrats! If you like yours half as much as I do, you'll be thrilled to own your Subie.
ehet: my Duelers lasted only 28k miles, just shy of yours. I swear I could have written that post from Tony - I had the same experience.
I also got new 16" rims with touring tires, only mine are Nitto NT460s and a little wider at 225/60R16. Like Tony said, they are better in the dry and prevent hydroplaning better, but they are not as good in the snow.
My rims were $75 each on special from Discount Tire Direct, and I sold my old steelies, so the net cost to me was a bargain at $200.
Still, if you want to keep your original rims, consider BF Goodrich Touring T/A SR4s. Why? Well, early CR-Vs had the Duelers, just like the Forester L, and when they switched to the BFGs, handling improved by a whopping 0.03 g's. Braking was also better, despite the tires being the only change.
So I'd try those. I didn't like the Duelers much. They really only shined in snow.
I have been running the BF Goodrich Touring T/As in the larger size (215/60-16) on my '98 S. They are "T" rated. They are better than the Geolandars in every respect, especially in snow.
I also had the uneven wear problem on the Geolandars and replaced them at 30k miles. I have been using a gauge to measure the tread depth on the T/As for the 18,000 miles I have had them and they are wearing EVENLY. I did not do an alignment. I suspected that the uneven wear was a design function and not an alignment problem because so many people have reported it. Based upon wear to date, I expect to replace the Goodrichs at 45,000-50,000 with at least 4/32 of tread left. They could probably go 60,000 or more and still be legal. They now come with a 65,000 mile warranty if you buy them at BJ's Wholesale for $65.95. The 15") size is available in an "H" rated version also, but with much shorter tread life and higher cost.
Get prices from wholesalers, too, like Tire Rack and Discount Tire Direct. My tires were $57 a pop, and they are rated 460AA in UTGQ and they are 87H, so they can withstand more heat plus a heavier load than my OE tires.
Thanks so much for all of your good advice on shopping - this is the very first new car for both of us, so needless to say I start sweating when thinking about it! Thanks for the great links to look at, and the considerate and kind help. We appreciate you! We are off this weekend to search the St. Louis area - will let you know what we find...Jennifer & Don
I'll be very interested in your impressions of the Aqua-Tread 3's. While I won't have to replace for a long time, when I do I'll be looking for maximal wet performance with at least fair quietness and comfort. I always seem to replace tires very early on - to me tires are the single most important safety/performance component of a car and I'm rarely satisfied with OEM.
The AT3's grip extremely well on wet roads and are reasonably quiet. I haven't noticed any difference in "comfort" .. the ride is essentially the same. Tread life and snow performance were the major improvements I was looking for. The Geo's were great on wet/dry roads and were quiet but they stunk in snow and didn't wear well.
According to "discount tires" research tool, the AT3's and Mich. Pilots were the 2 tires I repeatedly ended up selecting. (yeah, I'm anal)
The AT3's were a little cheaper so that was the tie breaker. BTW, for some unknown reason Goodyear spells the name of the tire "Tred". Prob. some Madison Ave. firm was paid a bundle to come up with that concept.
If you're not familiar with Discount Tires, here is a link to their site. http://www.discounttiredirect.com/ They don't always have the cheapest prices but they do have a good research tool.
and sorry about the spelling error. I too am anal when it comes to tires. I agree that the Geos are less than impressive in snow but that is not a major issue here in Vancouver - at least not most years. :~) I've already done a fair amount of research even though I have only about 11k miles on Rufus. Despite the speed rating the AT3's seem to be the one that fits my requirements best *on paper*. I do go on very poor logging roads during the summer, but most of my driving is around town and a bit of freeway driving. In Vancouver wet performance is primary, but decent snow and good wear characteristics are nice too. Price is the least of my concerns. No I'm not wealthy - it's just my priorities. If I can afford a moon roof, I can certainly afford the *best* tires available.
I totally agree with you on the headroom. I was very satisfied with that aspect. Like I said, I went to test drive the Forester with the intent of liking it so much, I would purchase the vehicle on the spot. The Forester met every criteria that I was looking for: 1) something different (a vehicle that every person and their mother was not driving) 2) Price (can't be beat for the quality) 3) Safety (best in it's class) 4) Gas Mileage (nuff said) 5) reliability (haven't really talked to anybody who regrets purchasing one). I think rsheldon1 confirmed what I am saying - It's a great vehicle if you don't have children or have grown children. I wish I liked the looks of the Outback. My wife, who is having a mid-life minivan crisis (does not want another one), has an equal problem with the "wagon" look of the OB. Oh well, I guess there are other makes and models... I wish the Forester was 6in-1ft longer. Overall, the Forester drives like a dream. I just wish I could overlook the lack of rear passenger room. Happy 4th of July, Ya'll...
After using this site to gather a lot of information on my Forester purchase, I wanted to contribute my thoughts as a new owner of an '02 L in silver platinum.
First, the car is what we wanted, so I really don't have any desire to describe it as an SUV (which it isn't) or a "regular" wagon (which it isn't) or defend its rear-seat room (which is about as good as our Camry, all-in-all.) The niche Subaru tried to fill with this vehicle was one we wanted filled. Basically, we expect the car to suit our needs for a long time, but I really don't have any interest in trying to "sell" my co-workers on it. Let them continue to make the Explorer mistake.
Second, I will note that I was really surprised with its road manners. General systems smoothness is not very far off from our '96 Camry, which represents a pretty good benchmark. Averaging 26 MPG, which is just off the Camry. Taken in consideration of the versatility of the Forester (clearance, cargo, AWD), I'm a pretty happy owner.
Tires (Duelers) aren't great, apropos the recent discussions, but I got to a trailhead this weekend that a number of other rigs bailed out on (including a Dodge Ram 4x4 and a 4Runner) so I'm not really complaining.
Got it for $300 over invoice, and a good bit less than the Edmunds TMV. The '02 was $300 more than the '01, and although I know there are very few differences, I do like the daytime running lights and the standard intermittent rear window wiper.
Questions:
1) What are the issues regarding access to the oil filter? The glorified splash guard directly blocks it, and I wonder about whether I could just take the thing off and leave it off.
2) Along the same lines, what are people's opinions about the optional rear diff protector? The low spot on the car seems to be the exhaust routing, but I wonder if there are seals in the rear (or front, for that matter) diff that need/want some special protection?
I have really appreciated the advice of members of this forum, and I hope that someone out there will think my impressions helpful to their own decision.
I am picking up my 2002 Forester I premium in a few days. I noticed that the vehicle comes with Yokihama tires(not sure of spelling) Are these decent, and is it recommended that the tires are rotated on this vehicle and how often? Thanks
I agree with all of your comments - it fills the niche I wanted filled as well. I opted for the differential protector on my '01 Forester. When I was on some rather poor roads last week
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292506555 I was very happy I did. I did manage to scrape bottom a couple of times. I don't know if the protector actually came into play (I haven't gone under the car to check it out), but it certainly gave me courage and peace of mind. I was several kilometers down an unused road, off a low use road. Not a place one wants to destroy one's differential. AS far as the splash protector, some people do a re & re each oil change, some modify it - cut a hole- , some remove it (engine compartment may get dirtier), and some replace it with a proper skid shield. The one's I've seen have an appropriate cutout. Hope this helps.
Regarding the splash guard, I can think of a few reasons why I wouldn't leave mine off.
1. The packaging of the engine components was done with the thought that they would be protected from the bottom. There are things under there that I wouldn't want "road shrapnel" bouncing off, like the filter itself, the cooling fan assembly, thermostat housing, etc.
2. Airflow around and into an engine and its components is critical and carefully designed in. Removing the shield could certainly changes the dynamics. I trust the engineer on this one.
3. Cleanliness. I like to look at things, and I take the oportunity to check out the underside while chnging the oil. I appreciate that the shield keeps things cleaner. Easier to spot leaks and such.
If you are driving places where you think you need the dif protector, I would leave the shield on. Models prior to '01 had a "flap" to access the filter. I sometimes wonder if they removed this to save 5 cents in mfg costs, or some other reason.
Maybe you should wait for the next generation (2003) Forester which is rumored to be built on a larger platform. If they do that I am sure the rear room will open up some. I personally would like to see them scale everything by 8% to 10%.
Thanks to all who commented about the Subaru Front Passenger Seat bias on both sides of the Atlantic! I live in the Home Town of the Land Rover "Free lander" and have two grown up "Children" working in management at the factory. Why did I not by one? I could not get a turbo petrol (gasoline) one but they are available with electric all adjustable memory for two drivers and electric fully adjustable memory front passenger SEATS. Subaru please note. It's a case of a choice between turbo power and passenger comfort. Thanks to all for all the subject topics,pity there is not more support from the UK but I only found out about the web site by pure chance.
I just had my second oil change @ 8000 miles on my leased 2001 S+ at Jiffy Lube. The oil change person (no mechanic was he) reused the compression washer on the oil pan plug and, of course, by the next morning I had a couple of ounces of oil on the garage floor. I went back to Jiffy and they told me that the leak was just left over old oil that accumulated on the splash guard when the oil filter was removed. Next day... still oil on the garage floor. Back to Jiffy where finally another oil change person (IQ above 80)noticed a leak at the plug. Upon removal of the plug, I noticed the compression washer and asked Jiffy to replace it. They did not have the part. So, off to the Subaru dealer about 3 doors down and got a washer for $.79. A real mechanic told me to place the flat side of the washer up against the plug. I relayed this info to the Jiffy idiot and voila, no more leaks. Moral of this story is to change your own oil or let a Subaru dealer handle this service. No third party oil changes for me.
Check the dipstick too as it seems overfills are not all that unusual. I totally agree on do it yourself oil changes. You can get OEM filters and crush washers from http://www.subaruparts.com/ for a lot less than retail. Oil Filter part #15208AA060 $4.31 and Crush Washer part #11126AA000 $0.31.
Jeff-- Yes, I agree, internet buying services are not what they are built up to be. I've found in almost all circustances that it's more efficient and even more economical to negotiate with a dealership on your own. Most dealerships now have an internet department and a lot of negotiating can be done both by email and on the phone. Believe me, I will never again be "locked" in one of those little rooms and go through that rigmarole that the car buying process entails when you are there on the dealership's own turf!
Kate-- I get the impression that you may be a bit offended by my remarks on the looks of the Forester. My apologies! I guess it's a little like telling a person that their dog is ugly (I was going to say child but I think a pet would be more appropriate in this situation, lol). No, I don't love the OB but for some reason see myself driving it more than I do the Forester. I love the purported reliability that the Forester offers. And I also love the overall value that the Forester represents. I keep looking at the pics of your Death Valley trip and keep telling myself: "that's going to be me driving a vehicle that looks almost exactly like that." And I'm having a difficult time trying to convince myself that it's really me. It just has a funky styling that I'm not really used to yet. But on-the-other hand, I'm old enough to remember the Subaru Brat ...that ugly,IMO, El Camino like thing that had the rearward facing seats, complete with hand grips, that appeared that the passengers sitting there were about to be ejected out the back of the pick-up bed! http://www.fhi.co.jp/subaru/bode12.htm A friend of mine bought one and I remember jokingly kidding him that it was the ugliest POS that I'd ever seen. But he loved that vehicle and it loved him back by giving him many years and miles of trouble-free driving. I hope that I may grow to love my Forester and hopefully in return it will love me back in that same way :P
Amanda-- Congratulations! Yah, Blueridge Pearl is the same color I'd have chosen if I had decided to go with the base S model. It's gorgeous! I wish that color were available on the S+ or actually I should say, I wish the base S would have options for a sunroof and side airbags! And on top of that you were able to get one of the remaining '01 models this late in the year??? That's great! As I was commenting to Kate, I really think the titanium lower cladding is a lot more attractive than the '02 graystone. My salesman told me that they could still add the after-market leather after I take delivery for the same $1,095 which he claims is a lot better looking and is of better quality than the factory leather. I'm still a little apprehensive in spending that much and I might just try to shop around afterward for my own after-market installation. What is your opinion on how much of that initial expenditure one pays for leather that is actually recovered at the time of resale? Again, congratulations on your new Stubby!!
Jennifer and Don-- *looks embarrassed* gee, thanx for your kind words, lol. No, I'm really not an expert negotiator as you can probably tell. Some people are just naturals at it, I am not. And as I said before, I keep making the same mistakes over and over again. But as first-time new car buyers, I'll give you a couple of other references: I'm sure you've already scoured the Edmunds web-site but I've found some interesting discussions over on the Town Hall Smart Shopper forums that I'm sure will help give you a better idea and understanding of the psychology of negotiating. You'll find several car sales reps commenting on those boards too. Another web-site that I like to recommend to people is http://www.carbuyingtips.com ...their slogan is "Car dealers hate us... You'll love us!" At this site, they'll also discuss the mechanics of buying a car along with the scams that some dealerships try to pull--it's interesting reading, if nothing else. One word of advice that I'm sure all will agree with: Be patient and don't lead on that you are "in love" with the car you are negotiating for. Give the dealerships that you are involved with TIME to counter-offer each others "best" offer. I made the mistake once of not doing that and found out after I had bought the car that another dealer wanted to sell it to me for quite a bit less. So take your time and once again, good luck!
Sean-- So Frank couldn't quite convince you, eh? tsk, too bad ...let us know what you finally decide to get as an alternative!
Richard-- Just to add to Mike's post about DIY oil changes, I noticed that Subaruparts.com has quite an expensive shipping rate. They are located in Tacoma, Washington and part of the Titus Auto Group which own quite a few different manufacturers dealerships including Tacoma Subaru. The only reason I mention this is that if you wanted to buy just one crush washer, you'd be paying $.31 + $6.50 for a grand price of $6.81 for ONE washer, lol (plus, by my living in Washington State, I'd have to pay sales tax on top of that!). Yes, they have great prices but just be sure you order quite a bit of merchandise before you submit your order or it might be just as cheap to visit your local dealer especially for just one washer :P
Sean: I'm betting the 2003 Forester will be perfect for you. It should get a little bigger yet keep the SUV styling. Can you wait about a year?
scoochiro: I ended up using tin snips to cut a hole directly under the oil filter for access. It was quite easy. That way, the cover still keeps the engine relatively clean, yet I can see and access the filter readily.
My 1998 model did not have a flap for access. There was a hole, but it was not under the filter. Maybe it was meant for the Japanese 2.0l engine, and not our 2.5l?
I installed the rear diffy protector myself. I was impressed at how thick the steel was, and it looks good from behind the vehicle. The diffy was previously open and vulnerable and had some road grim on it, so it can't hurt to have it, since it's inexpensive. I've also used it as a jacking point to lift the rear of the vehicle.
Richard: excellent conclusion. I fully agree.
Man I miss Darlene. QSubaru's price was $4 for the filter, and the washer and shipping were free! I ordered some parts from her but I'm still waiting. It think their UPS bills are still not all paid up.
No, not a bit offended. I just got an impression that you like OB more, but pricing on Forester makes it more attractive. And in this case I think you should go for what you really like which I assumed was OB.
I personally think that after Grand Cherokee was redesigned in 1998, there is not a real handsome SUV left on the market. But some are uglier than others (Pontiac Aztek, for example).
Thanks for all of your comments. I used to do all of my own oil changes but over the years I have become a little less compulsive (not according to my wife) and have given up on do it yourself oil changes. Also, leasing vehicles for 3 years takes the edge somewhat off of some maintainence; although,I do care for my vehicles. The Forester is my wife's SUV and I lease a 2000 Maxima. Since I kayak a lot in the DC area and in coastal NC, I encouraged my wife to get the Forester. She and I love this SUV...it's just fun to drive and transports my kayaks easily with the help of Thule racks and saddles. I especially appreciate the relatively low height of the vehicle since it would be a bear to load my 80 lb. tandem kayak on any other SUV. When my Maxima lease is up in 2003, I will probably give up luxury and speed for the sheer fun and true utility of the Forester.
I paid $1200 for the after market leather. I have to say it was worth it at (almost) any price. I really don't like the cloth they put in the S model, and I didn't want the sunroof (I live in FL, I tend to stay *out* of the sun rather than let it in) of the S premium. The leather is such a nice upgrade, it makes the whole car seem more up-scale somehow. Can you tell, I'm very happy with my Stubby, and it's only day 2.
As for the look of the Forester, I had an Accord coupe for the last 7 years, and a Prelude for 6 years before that. It took me 3 years to talk myself into a SUV-like vehicle, let alone something with *gasp* 4 doors. That said, I now spend 2-3 weekends a month travelling via car to dog (agility and flyball) shows, with an alarmingly vast amount of *stuff* and at least one (sometimes 2) 50 lb dog(s). I couldn't fit it all into the Accord and my boyfriend cried about having to drive the Accord (he's 6'3") any weekend I took the Volvo wagon instead.
I like the Forester over the OB for the look, because it's not a typical wagon, it's alittle bizarre looking, and you don't see 17 of them each time you drive 2 miles to the grocery store. It definately grew on me, as I ruled it out initially because I didn't think it was big enough, yet I came back to it because all the truck-based SUVs just didn't fit the bill either (for various reasons).
Anyway, I'm getting the windows tinted tomorrow, and will hold off on the amplifier for now. The car had the tweeter package already installed, and I'm fairly happy with the sound system as is.
Comments
Remember, the Forester has proven reliability and is at the end of its production cycle so Subaru has had the time to have the majority of the "bugs" worked out. The Tribute/Escape's reliability is still unproven since it's a new model but look what happened when it was first introduced; how many recalls did they have??? The Forester is also assembled in Japan which is a slight plus IMO as far as initial quality and attention to detail in assembly goes. Although I love the looks of both the Escape and the Tribute, I just don't want to take the chance with their future reliability. The Forester looks so "frumpy" but I'm sure it will tend to be trouble free for many years to come.
I'm a little nervous right now because I've put a deposit down on a Forester and don't really know if I'm getting that good a deal on it yet. Since none of the regulars here are responding to my previous posts, maybe I can ask you about what kind of pricing are you experiencing there in Florida on Foresters if you've gotten that far?
Ok, Sean, let us know what you decide and good luck.
"...Nevertheless, the Forester should be cheaper to own than many vehicles in its price class mainly because Subarus have traditionally retained a high residual value (which makes up for an awful lot of extra gas used); and because Subarus are so well engineered and well built, they generally need fewer repairs as they age than comparable cars.
The British marketplace is reported to be the most competitive in Europe and probably the most competitive in the world. Subarus topped the latest British JD Powers survey, widely accepted as a good measure of build quality."
Let me know if you want the link to the entire article.
As far as Forester vs Tribute reliability, check the Tribute/Escape Problems thread. So far, Tribute was not exactly a 100% success, although it's a neat package (room, power, price). Fuel odor which a lot of Tribute/Escape owners seem to experience, would have driven me crazy, plus many recalls and other problems.
Anyway, can this water that I describe do any damage. Should I escalate this to another level?
One other thing, I was assured when I bought the L that the rear drum brakes were far superior to what I had been used to. I brought it back for the installation of the diff protector and asked that the brakes be checked since they felt a bit spongy. They adjusted the rears and it's better but they told me that it's not tru that the rears adjust themselves when you go in reverse. I was told this has to be manually done every 7500 miles. I wish I had been told the truth on this previously.
Thanks,
P.S. Scirocco, I too like the two tone better than the monotone. The monotone seems to make the vehicle look too boxy from the side view.
As for drum brakes, on my old Loyale they had to be adjusted only after 75K mi. On my Forester S+ I have rear discs, so cannot comment on this.
Spongy feel of break pedal is pretty typical for Subarus. I had a very soft pedal on old one, and have somewhat muschy-feeling pedal on a new one. I was told, it's because a dual-stage power braking technology is good. While I'd personally prefer a more precise brake feel, stopping distance is good, so I guess I can live with it.
tex: try it out - the rear headrests can be leaned forward (1998-2000 Foresters). They are interchangeable with the fronts, which do not tilt forward.
Resale is indeed very good. I paid $19,200 back in 1998, and they're selling for around $15k. That's 78% of the original price I paid, remarkable IMO. Go price a used Cherokee and see if it held its value as well (fat chance).
I disagree with the "so-so" quality compared to Jeep's unknown quality. Forester has proven itself with total quality awards from Strategic Visions, a top three finish with JD Power, and better than average long-term scores with Consumer Reports.
The Liberty is new, but look at the Grand Cherokee, Jeep's previous new product, and quality was dismal. The V6 for the Liberty is based on that engine family, and Jeep has had poor scores for years and years.
IIRC Consumer Reports had them at the bottom as a group, while Subaru was 7th best behind Honda, Toyota, and Nissan (plus their 3 luxury name plates).
Night and day. Very good, proven long-term quality vs. unknown but historically awful quality.
Don't get me wrong - I like the Liberty a lot, and Jeeps are about as fun as you can get. Let's just not lose sight of the facts. I don't like that you can't get full-time 4WD with a manual tranny and the V6, and ABS isn't standard even on the top-of-the-line Limited model. I hate the way they package them, basically.
-juice
I do think the Liberty is going to go a long way in terms of changing Jeep's reliability reputation. It's a clean-sheet design, and computer-designed from the get-go, with a new super high-tech factory—none of which any previous Jeep model had access to.
I'm not saying there won't be any teething problems. But I suspect there will be few, and easily fixed.
Bob
Bob
Kate-- Thanx much for your description of the differences in the '01 and the '02 silver colors. I originally thought that the platinum was a little darker shade of silver but I guess I'm wrong.
juice-- Your point about the Forester retaining its value is well taken --thank you. The research I've done so far is that the Forester will have a little higher resale than an OB but I don't know by how much. Also your advice over on the OB board is right on... I guess I can always "upgrade" to an OB later if I find the Forester no longer meets my needs :>
Well folks, I guess I'm now leaning a little more towards the Forester than the OB but still a little leary as to the "deal" I'm getting. I'm hearing that Foresters in some parts of the country are selling for below invoice as well as OB's. Maybe a little more haggling is in order. *ugh* I despise that, lol. Thank you all for yor feedback ...back to more number crunching.
Oh, can I get anyone to comment on this: the dealer that I've given a deposit is quoting me an installed price for the "performance gauge pack" of $850. That's really pricy compared with an aftermarket set-up that I've seen over on i-club which the WRX owners are installing but I don't know if I want to hassle with after-market installations. Yes, the Subaru gauge pack looks cheap but it is covered under the b2b warranty and if it functions properly then that's all I want. Other dealers are quoting up to $1,200 for the same installation. Is there anyone here that has had the OEM gauge pack installed?
Also, any comments on the retained value of after-market leather?
Here in the Massachusetts the pricing seems to be about invoice for an L, about $100 to $200 over for an S, and about $300 to $400 over for an S+.
Regards,
Frank
Scirrocco: depending on the lighting, Platinum may look a bit darker because it's more greyish as opposed to slightly yellowish hue in Silverthorne. On the sun, it sparks more than Silverthorne, and looks more upscale, IMO.
They're not for me, though. I just don't like trucks, even the ones that try to be car-like.
The price for the gauges is (IMHO) high. I'd spend my $850 on a Borla cat-back, an UR pulley, and an Amsoil air filter, a 18mm rear sway bar, and a front strut tower brace. You'd still have some change, even.
-juice
For tires, I went with Yokohama Avid T4's. These are very comfortable "touring" tires - much better grip/handling than the high profile (70 series Duelers) but with very smooth and quiet ride. My goal for upgrading was to reduce noise and improve handling. The Avids and larger rim did this for me.
Light truck tires will give you better snow traction, but not necessarily better wet weather traction. I find the oem Duelers to be very prone to hydroplaning. They are (supposedly!) built a little stronger for off-road use. Light truck tires will also generally be noisier on the highway and even noticeable at low speed. The one thing I noticed with the new tires when slowing to a stop is how silent they are, the Duelers produced lots of road noise.
Passenger car tires will give a smoother ride, be quieter, and generally wear longer than LTs. One thing to ensure is that any replacement tire should meet the oem load and speed rating (95 and 'S' for Forester L). Snow traction is reduced, but you have to balance that against (1) how much snow you have to deal with and (2) the fact that AWD with decent all-season tires is probably enough for normal snow conditions.
If you haven't already done so, checkout www.tirerack.com for tire surveys and generally good information about tires.
-Tony
Frank-- Yes, those prices you gave were what I was kind of expecting when first starting to shop for a Forester. Then I ran across a local dealer that was offering an internet price of a flat rate over invoice for any Forester and I thought that was a pretty good deal. When I started doing more research, reading message boards and talking to more people, I found that in some parts of the country they are selling Foresters for under invoice. So I started questioning whether I actually was getting a good price or not. I wish it wasn't such a difficult task to determine exactly what a certain model of car has been actually selling for in ones own local area
Kate-- Sounds good! I wish they offered it in a charcoal color. I think the monotone color scheme looks better in the darker colors. I was hoping that the new platinum was quite a bit darker than the old silverthorn but I guess it will have to do. I saw an '01 base S model the other day in the green and titanium color and it was very sharp looking. One of the reasons I decided to go to the premium model is because the '02 base S model changed the lower cladding color to "graystone" and it doesn't look nearly as good as the MY'01 titanium did, IMO
juice-- wow! you mean I can actually have all that done for less than $850?? I've been considering adding a Borla cat-back and heavier sway bars to my Audi and it sounds like I might be looking at a much more reasonable price to mod the Forester! And yes, I did take a look at i-club to see what kind of gauge packs people were installing on WRX's and I'm sure I could have it done after-market for a lot less money but by further negotiations, I got the dealer to knock off a few more $$$ on the OEM gauges so I think I just may have them do it. I'm not that much of a performance freak but I've always wanted gauges in the cars I own and find it so disappointing that just about all manufacturers have switched to "idiot lights."
Jim-- Did I read that right??? You like the looks and the styling of the Forester more than the OB??? wow! ...that makes me feel a little better! I'm of the opposite opinion; I just don't like the looks of the Forester as compared with the Outback, lol, but maybe it'll grow on me in time! But it sounds like the OB will better suit your needs. Let us know what you finally decide.
Don and Jennifer-- If you've been reading my posts the last few days, you can see that I'm pretty frustrated in trying to figure out just how much negotiating room there is on a Forester. Most of us don't buy new cars that often so we're really at a disadvantage when negotiating with a dealer. This will be the second new car I will purchase this year and you'd think I'd have learned a few things the second time around but I seem to be making the same mistakes all over again, lol. This will be, I think, the eighth new car that I've purchased through the years and everytime I tell myself that I'm going to do my homework and really negotiate a good deal but, for some strange reason, it's easier said-than-done when you're right up against it. I really despise this negotiation process. I'm thinking that life would be so much simpler if all manufacturers went to the Saturn type pricing structure but I know that some people really enjoy haggling but to me it is emotionally draining and frustrating. But anyway, here's my $.02 on a starting point: Configure your car on both the Edmunds TMV calculator and at www.carsdirect.com. Doing this will give you some idea of what the car, configured as you like, is "selling" for in your area. Now, my experience tells me that a Forester is going to sell for much less, by some negotiation on your part at a dealership you choose, than either the Edmunds TMV or what carsdirect can acquire one for you. But the figures you derive from Edmunds and carsdirect will give you some kind of idea of what price you should not exceed in your negotiations for it is an "average" price (or perhaps a better term would be "median" price) that the car might be selling for in your region. My research and recent experience tells me that some dealers in some areas are letting Foresters go for close to invoice price. This will probably take a little negotiating on your part and by maybe pitting one dealer against another but IMO still "doable." Another alternative is to use a service like Priceline.com where dealers bid amongst themselves for your business. And yes, I've also found that there are very few 2001's left in my area too. Whew! sorry to be so long winded. Good luck and let us know how it goes!
I have a 2001 Forester I that I purchased 4 months ago and I love the vehicle. It has loved up to all of my expectations. I live 40 miles from the nearest Subaru dealership but that causes no concern for me as I do my own oil changes and I will utilize a local garage for my scheduled maintenance. I have over 11,500 miles on this vehicle already and there has been absolutely no surprises. What does surprise me is your statement about if you are over 6'-o" this is not the vehicle of choice. I am 6'-3" and I admit my children are grown but this vehicle has more leg and head room then my Taurus had and the only constraint I feel is width wise as I weigh 225 abs. I just recently traveled three hours with five adults in this vehicle and yes I pushed the drivers seat up and I did not feel cramped and the rear seat passengers were comfortable. Granted I would not want to drive two days like that. Just my two cents worth here
I actually was amazed when I first sat in the Forester. Since I don't use the rear seat very often, I wish they offered a 2 door so the front doors would be larger, but I fit.
For me it's the headroom. I can sit bolt upright with the seat knobs turned all the way up, and still not feel like the roof is too close. I could even drive like that and not have to crane my neck down to see out the windshield. I don't drive like that but what a treat just to be able to do it. Even in my wife's S+ with the moonroof there is plenty, and this is not true of any other vehicle I have sat in with a factory power roof where the panel comes into the car.
Legroom, well I could always use more, especially with my size 13W feet, but I can drive this vehicle and have a place for my left foot to rest (5MT). There could be more space between the gas and brake because I occasionally hit the gas while also applying the brake. Instead of "heel/toe-ing" it's like "left side of foot/right side of foot-ing".
I don't sit in the rear, you couldn't make me, but my wife who is a "short" 5'10" (she hates it when I call her short) has sat behind me without me having to change my driving position... it's not that I didn't offer, just didn't need to, and oh, there was someone in the front with me, she doesn't HAVE to sit in the back. (slap incoming)
The width is a problem in my 5MT when I have a "large" passenger who wants the armrest and I need to shift. I have no problem when driving my wife's automatic with the same passenger. I also have no problem when my wife is the passenger in either vehicle. (Had to say that, didn't want another slap.)
Overall I find the room quite adequate for my use, especially when I consider that I can haul my large carcass practically anywhere with confidence, for about $20K, getting 23MPG or so, in almost any weather here in New England, AND have fun doing it.
Regards,
Frank
Scirrocco, in case you're still wavering, I went with the S because I didn't like the monotone paint and I wasn't really thrilled about the color selection. I've had a white car for the last 7 years, and a black car for 6 years before that, so I wanted something different. I also wanted leather, so the blue S with after market leather fit the bill. I also got the car for 4% over invoice, which was my credit union's negotiated price, which made my buying experience a dream. So I think the price you're getting is great, but be sure this is the car you want.
We have Volvo wagon, so I didn't need the size offered in the Outback, and I like the look of the Forester better, so it was a no-brainer. Once I decided *against* all the other small SUV's, and believe me, over the last 3 years that I've been shopping, I've driven them all, the Forester won out, and I'm not disappointed (after 2 hours of ownership).
Gotta go run errands so I can drive my new Stubby!
aj
ps... thanks to whoever first called their Forester "Stubby".... I love that nickname....
Had to put new shoes on (Lynn's car)the Forester. (Still can't get used to that) With only 27.5k miles, the Geo's were gone-o. The outer 2" of tread was gone on all 4 tires. Ah .. maybe Juice was telling the truth about my driving .. nah .. had to be an alignment problem. Anyway, I replaced the Geo's with Goodyear Aqua-Tred 3's. Supposed to be a "well balanced" tire .. we'll see. Anybody have any experience with them?
- hutch
ehet: my Duelers lasted only 28k miles, just shy of yours. I swear I could have written that post from Tony - I had the same experience.
I also got new 16" rims with touring tires, only mine are Nitto NT460s and a little wider at 225/60R16. Like Tony said, they are better in the dry and prevent hydroplaning better, but they are not as good in the snow.
My rims were $75 each on special from Discount Tire Direct, and I sold my old steelies, so the net cost to me was a bargain at $200.
Still, if you want to keep your original rims, consider BF Goodrich Touring T/A SR4s. Why? Well, early CR-Vs had the Duelers, just like the Forester L, and when they switched to the BFGs, handling improved by a whopping 0.03 g's. Braking was also better, despite the tires being the only change.
So I'd try those. I didn't like the Duelers much. They really only shined in snow.
-juice
I also had the uneven wear problem on the Geolandars and replaced them at 30k miles. I have been using a gauge to measure the tread depth on the T/As for the 18,000 miles I have had them and they are wearing EVENLY. I did not do an alignment. I suspected that the uneven wear was a design function and not an alignment problem because so many people have reported it. Based upon wear to date, I expect to replace the Goodrichs at 45,000-50,000 with at least 4/32 of tread left. They could probably go 60,000 or more and still be legal. They now come with a 65,000 mile warranty if you buy them at BJ's Wholesale for $65.95. The 15") size is available in an "H" rated version also, but with much shorter tread life and higher cost.
Check out this link:
http://www.jdpower.com/auto/winners.asp?StudyID=460&CatID=1
We have the most appealing small SUV out there. Pile that on top of the long list of awards received.
-juice
Ross
Of course they are still new but......
The AT3's grip extremely well on wet roads and are reasonably quiet. I haven't noticed any difference in "comfort" .. the ride is essentially the same. Tread life and snow performance were the major improvements I was looking for. The Geo's were great on wet/dry roads and were quiet but they stunk in snow and didn't wear well.
According to "discount tires" research tool, the AT3's and Mich. Pilots were the 2 tires I repeatedly ended up selecting. (yeah, I'm anal)
The AT3's were a little cheaper so that was the tie breaker. BTW, for some unknown reason Goodyear spells the name of the tire "Tred". Prob. some Madison Ave. firm was paid a bundle to come up with that concept.
If you're not familiar with Discount Tires, here is a link to their site. http://www.discounttiredirect.com/ They don't always have the cheapest prices but they do have a good research tool.
- hutch
Ross
First, the car is what we wanted, so I really don't have any desire to describe it as an SUV (which it isn't) or a "regular" wagon (which it isn't) or defend its rear-seat room (which is about as good as our Camry, all-in-all.) The niche Subaru tried to fill with this vehicle was one we wanted filled. Basically, we expect the car to suit our needs for a long time, but I really don't have any interest in trying to "sell" my co-workers on it. Let them continue to make the Explorer mistake.
Second, I will note that I was really surprised with its road manners. General systems smoothness is not very far off from our '96 Camry, which represents a pretty good benchmark. Averaging 26 MPG, which is just off the Camry. Taken in consideration of the versatility of the Forester (clearance, cargo, AWD), I'm a pretty happy owner.
Tires (Duelers) aren't great, apropos the recent discussions, but I got to a trailhead this weekend that a number of other rigs bailed out on (including a Dodge Ram 4x4 and a 4Runner) so I'm not really complaining.
Got it for $300 over invoice, and a good bit less than the Edmunds TMV. The '02 was $300 more than the '01, and although I know there are very few differences, I do like the daytime running lights and the standard intermittent rear window wiper.
Questions:
1) What are the issues regarding access to the oil filter? The glorified splash guard directly blocks it, and I wonder about whether I could just take the thing off and leave it off.
2) Along the same lines, what are people's opinions about the optional rear diff protector? The low spot on the car seems to be the exhaust routing, but I wonder if there are seals in the rear (or front, for that matter) diff that need/want some special protection?
I have really appreciated the advice of members of this forum, and I hope that someone out there will think my impressions helpful to their own decision.
Are these decent, and is it recommended that the tires are rotated on this vehicle and how often?
Thanks
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292506555 I was very happy I did. I did manage to scrape bottom a couple of times. I don't know if the protector actually came into play (I haven't gone under the car to check it out), but it certainly gave me courage and peace of mind. I was several kilometers down an unused road, off a low use road. Not a place one wants to destroy one's differential. AS far as the splash protector, some people do a re & re each oil change, some modify it - cut a hole- , some remove it (engine compartment may get dirtier), and some replace it with a proper skid shield. The one's I've seen have an appropriate cutout. Hope this helps.
Ross
Regarding the splash guard, I can think of a few reasons why I wouldn't leave mine off.
1. The packaging of the engine components was done with the thought that they would be protected from the bottom. There are things under there that I wouldn't want "road shrapnel" bouncing off, like the filter itself, the cooling fan assembly, thermostat housing, etc.
2. Airflow around and into an engine and its components is critical and carefully designed in. Removing the shield could certainly changes the dynamics. I trust the engineer on this one.
3. Cleanliness. I like to look at things, and I take the oportunity to check out the underside while chnging the oil. I appreciate that the shield keeps things cleaner. Easier to spot leaks and such.
If you are driving places where you think you need the dif protector, I would leave the shield on. Models prior to '01 had a "flap" to access the filter. I sometimes wonder if they removed this to save 5 cents in mfg costs, or some other reason.
Regards,
Frank
Regards,
Frank
I live in the Home Town of the Land Rover "Free lander" and have two grown up "Children" working in management at the factory. Why did I not by one? I could not get a turbo petrol (gasoline) one but they are available with electric all adjustable memory for two drivers and electric fully adjustable memory front passenger SEATS. Subaru please note.
It's a case of a choice between turbo power and passenger comfort. Thanks to all for all the subject topics,pity there is not more support from the UK but I only found out about the web site by pure chance.
bit
Kate-- I get the impression that you may be a bit offended by my remarks on the looks of the Forester. My apologies! I guess it's a little like telling a person that their dog is ugly (I was going to say child but I think a pet would be more appropriate in this situation, lol). No, I don't love the OB but for some reason see myself driving it more than I do the Forester. I love the purported reliability that the Forester offers. And I also love the overall value that the Forester represents. I keep looking at the pics of your Death Valley trip and keep telling myself: "that's going to be me driving a vehicle that looks almost exactly like that." And I'm having a difficult time trying to convince myself that it's really me. It just has a funky styling that I'm not really used to yet. But on-the-other hand, I'm old enough to remember the Subaru Brat ...that ugly,IMO, El Camino like thing that had the rearward facing seats, complete with hand grips, that appeared that the passengers sitting there were about to be ejected out the back of the pick-up bed! http://www.fhi.co.jp/subaru/bode12.htm A friend of mine bought one and I remember jokingly kidding him that it was the ugliest POS that I'd ever seen. But he loved that vehicle and it loved him back by giving him many years and miles of trouble-free driving. I hope that I may grow to love my Forester and hopefully in return it will love me back in that same way :P
Amanda-- Congratulations! Yah, Blueridge Pearl is the same color I'd have chosen if I had decided to go with the base S model. It's gorgeous! I wish that color were available on the S+ or actually I should say, I wish the base S would have options for a sunroof and side airbags! And on top of that you were able to get one of the remaining '01 models this late in the year??? That's great! As I was commenting to Kate, I really think the titanium lower cladding is a lot more attractive than the '02 graystone. My salesman told me that they could still add the after-market leather after I take delivery for the same $1,095 which he claims is a lot better looking and is of better quality than the factory leather. I'm still a little apprehensive in spending that much and I might just try to shop around afterward for my own after-market installation. What is your opinion on how much of that initial expenditure one pays for leather that is actually recovered at the time of resale? Again, congratulations on your new Stubby!!
Jennifer and Don-- *looks embarrassed* gee, thanx for your kind words, lol. No, I'm really not an expert negotiator as you can probably tell. Some people are just naturals at it, I am not. And as I said before, I keep making the same mistakes over and over again. But as first-time new car buyers, I'll give you a couple of other references: I'm sure you've already scoured the Edmunds web-site but I've found some interesting discussions over on the Town Hall Smart Shopper forums that I'm sure will help give you a better idea and understanding of the psychology of negotiating. You'll find several car sales reps commenting on those boards too. Another web-site that I like to recommend to people is http://www.carbuyingtips.com ...their slogan is "Car dealers hate us... You'll love us!" At this site, they'll also discuss the mechanics of buying a car along with the scams that some dealerships try to pull--it's interesting reading, if nothing else. One word of advice that I'm sure all will agree with: Be patient and don't lead on that you are "in love" with the car you are negotiating for. Give the dealerships that you are involved with TIME to counter-offer each others "best" offer. I made the mistake once of not doing that and found out after I had bought the car that another dealer wanted to sell it to me for quite a bit less. So take your time and once again, good luck!
Sean-- So Frank couldn't quite convince you, eh? tsk, too bad
Richard-- Just to add to Mike's post about DIY oil changes, I noticed that Subaruparts.com has quite an expensive shipping rate. They are located in Tacoma, Washington and part of the Titus Auto Group which own quite a few different manufacturers dealerships including Tacoma Subaru. The only reason I mention this is that if you wanted to buy just one crush washer, you'd be paying $.31 + $6.50 for a grand price of $6.81 for ONE washer, lol (plus, by my living in Washington State, I'd have to pay sales tax on top of that!). Yes, they have great prices but just be sure you order quite a bit of merchandise before you submit your order or it might be just as cheap to visit your local dealer especially for just one washer :P
--'rocco
--'rocco
scoochiro: I ended up using tin snips to cut a hole directly under the oil filter for access. It was quite easy. That way, the cover still keeps the engine relatively clean, yet I can see and access the filter readily.
My 1998 model did not have a flap for access. There was a hole, but it was not under the filter. Maybe it was meant for the Japanese 2.0l engine, and not our 2.5l?
I installed the rear diffy protector myself. I was impressed at how thick the steel was, and it looks good from behind the vehicle. The diffy was previously open and vulnerable and had some road grim on it, so it can't hurt to have it, since it's inexpensive. I've also used it as a jacking point to lift the rear of the vehicle.
Richard: excellent conclusion. I fully agree.
Man I miss Darlene. QSubaru's price was $4 for the filter, and the washer and shipping were free! I ordered some parts from her but I'm still waiting. It think their UPS bills are still not all paid up.
-juice
I personally think that after Grand Cherokee was redesigned in 1998, there is not a real handsome SUV left on the market. But some are uglier than others (Pontiac Aztek, for example).
Richard: I too like the low roof. I end up using it quite often.
Glad to hear you're enjoying your Forester.
-juice
I paid $1200 for the after market leather. I have to say it was worth it at (almost) any price. I really don't like the cloth they put in the S model, and I didn't want the sunroof (I live in FL, I tend to stay *out* of the sun rather than let it in) of the S premium. The leather is such a nice upgrade, it makes the whole car seem more up-scale somehow. Can you tell, I'm very happy with my Stubby, and it's only day 2.
As for the look of the Forester, I had an Accord coupe for the last 7 years, and a Prelude for 6 years before that. It took me 3 years to talk myself into a SUV-like vehicle, let alone something with *gasp* 4 doors. That said, I now spend 2-3 weekends a month travelling via car to dog (agility and flyball) shows, with an alarmingly vast amount of *stuff* and at least one (sometimes 2) 50 lb dog(s). I couldn't fit it all into the Accord and my boyfriend cried about having to drive the Accord (he's 6'3") any weekend I took the Volvo wagon instead.
I like the Forester over the OB for the look, because it's not a typical wagon, it's alittle bizarre looking, and you don't see 17 of them each time you drive 2 miles to the grocery store. It definately grew on me, as I ruled it out initially because I didn't think it was big enough, yet I came back to it because all the truck-based SUVs just didn't fit the bill either (for various reasons).
Anyway, I'm getting the windows tinted tomorrow, and will hold off on the amplifier for now. The car had the tweeter package already installed, and I'm fairly happy with the sound system as is.
aj
...at 6-7pm Pacific/9-10 pm Eastern. Hope to see you there!
http://www.edmunds.com/chat/subaruchat.html