2001 - 2006 Honda CR-Vs

sabrina9

Agree that other new cars catch fire also (and have other problems), but I am not driving other cars. All I am trying to do is have honda admit it was a defect (actually, I don't even care if they admit it, just cover it under warranty - I even gave them the option to cover it under goodwill). They can do whatever they want, they had their chance to make it right - I am focused on the suit now. I still drive a CRV and another Honda and I am not worried, but the more info I get, the more I find my experience was not unique, that's all.

mikefm58

Can you email me the things you can't say online? Just curious here. My email addy is in my profile.

ateixeira

I bet Honda is aware of your presence here, just keep the updates coming.

Can you say if the fires were related to that recall that we suspected earlier?

-juice

varmint

Sure Dave, more than 2 inches.

"All I am trying to do is have honda admit it was a defect." - Sabrina

Can you tell us what the defect is?

kizhe

How can Honda possibly 'admit' the 'defect' when NOBODY knows for sure what it was???
This is a kind of 'logical doldrums' /Catch-22 situation, which lawyers know how to handle:
First look for a party with a deepest pocket and then find a 'defect'.

sabrina9

Obviously, I can't say too much since it is in litigation.

Also, I don't have access to Honda's files on their investigations (they still haven't even given me mine). If they know the cause they ain't telling me

Is there a "defect" or enough of a suspicion of a defect someone can absolutely point to? That is for the judge to decide. I'm not NASA. The car is a melted wreck and the o/c was not out of the ordinary.

In 2002, 2001 CRV's, the NHTSA website has no fire complaints. For the 2003's there are two (one is mine)which are very similar. That seems like a big increase, no? No matter what the problem, seems like Honda should spend some time on this - perhaps asking me what happened might be a good start.

Is it possible Honda isn't looking hard enough? They got the engineers and the technicians.
I really am sorry I can't say more. I have nothing against Honda. I would not even have gone this far if they just gave me the new vehicle under warranty. I have never asked for anything more than to be whole.

stevedebi

Ah, statistics. While two is a HUGE increase in fires from 0 between 2002 and 2003, this represents an insignificant figure against the number of CR-Vs sold in 2003. Car fires can happen for many reasons. If there were a generic product defect, the record would show many more fire claims.

This is not to say that there wasn't a defect in your particular CR-V. I'm not taking a position on your case - it sure sounds like someone is at fault. But Honda is wise to ensure that it was their defect and not the dealer's (or someone else's) fault before electing to provide a new vehicle under warranty.

sabrina9

Anyone know where I can find how many 2003 CRVs were sold in US.

tomsr1

I have 30k miles on my 02 crv,brakes are fine.Just a little noisy when stopping hard.When do I need to plan on replacing the pads?Not a lot of stop and go driving and no mountains are
encountered.

kentkmok

2003 CRV Sales Volume: 146266

- quote from autos.yahoo.com

http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/d/honda03crv/lx2wd4spdat/trim_spec- s.html?content=specs&refsrc=autos/trim_overview

herzogtum71

(1) Where is the EX 4WD CR-V with AT manufactured? I live in Massachusetts. Would it come from England or Japan?
(2) Is the CR-V engine interference-type (valves can hit pistons if timing belt/chain breaks) or noninterference-type?
Thanks.

varmint

Sabrina - It's difficult to say how many 2003 models were sold. I've never found sales figures for a particular. It's most common for sales figures to be published for a date range. However, these dates may include the sales of some 2002 units along with some 2003 units.

For the 2002 calendar year, Honda sold 146,266 units.

For 2003 (so far), Honda has sold 132,575 units.

I don't mean to assume, but if you are asking for the purpose of comparing sales figures to fire incidents, it comes out to about .00000717254%.

varmint

Herzotgum - Most likely a unit sold in Massachusetts was produced at the Swindon plant in England.

I believe that most Honda engines use interference valves. I know that the old model does. The new CR-V uses a timing chain, btw.

sabrina9

I agreed 2 of 137k doesn't SEEM like a lot, but...

Both my car and the other one came from UK plant
Both were EX's
Both were subject to the same recall.
Both had identical or near identical issues. (the other car had less mileage than mine).

I know this because I received the full report from the NHTSA

By way of comparison, Honda just recently recalled 652,000 cars for an ignition switch. Know how many crashes there were? Try 28. There were about 150 complaints, but don't forget this recall involved a wear issue that spanned many model years (therefore older models may skew the results). I wonder how many complaints/crashes came from 02's? - probably not alot, but they were still recalled because they had potential problems. That is not much different, satistically speaking than the number you mentioned, especially if you take it down by plant (which probably produced only 65,000 or about half).

Also, is it me, or did you misplace a decimal. I think it is .0014%, but I could be wrong. PLUS not everyone reports to the NHTSA (in fact I would never have if the car was replaced under warranty). If we just assumed the UK plant made half, now we are up to 0.0028%. That may not be a lot if you are talking about broken door latches or mirrors falling off or something, but considering we are talking about spontaneous combustion (and I do mean spontaneous), I would think 2 is not a little number and is well within the percentages for taking the problem seriously, not fluffing it off. I would think the first few cars that went out of park probably had a few doubters too.

Again, I hold no grudge. But the way this was handled was atrocious.

herzogtum71

stevedebi

It doesn't take a lot of trouble reports to cause a recall. Honda must realize that they expose themselves to huge liability if they knowingly fail to recall a vehicle due to a defect. Consider the recalls they have done already. Pull to the right, possible corrosion on some cables, ignition lock that may - in extreme circumstances - fail to lock the automatic transmission.

I imagine that if they find a major problem in manufacture or design that causes a fire, they would issue the recall immediately.

That said, I hope your situation comes out in your favor. Please let us know when the culprit is identified.

sabrina9

Agree SteveDebi, but this fire is different. After the "defect" manifests itself, the car burns to a crisp in about a minute. By the time the firefighters got there it was compltely gone. With the cable and other recalls, the cars remained intact and the problem was more easily identified.

But that doesn't let Honda off the hook. Certainly it is a more difficult investigation and it may take a different type of "investigation" then they traditionally do - more than just taking some pictures. No investigator ever interviewd me and they came to their "conclusion" extremely quick given the circumstances.

Brand new car (and someone elses) erupts into flames with absolutely no warning and they start reading the fine print. Doesn't sit well with me, sorry. Not after being a 20 year customer. Including the Hindenburg, I have owned 5 new Hondas, with my family owning severl more. And I have been responsible for at least 3 people buying Hondas in the 6 months before the fire. If they won't take care of a loyal customer like me who should they take care of?

Should they recall every 03 CRV. Of course not, but I still say something's up. This is real small dollars for them and it just doesn't make sense.

varmint

Sabrina - I used 2 out of the total, not just those sold in the year 2003. That probably explains the difference in our numbers. Actually, the total should be a bit higher as Honda sold about 15K units in November and December of 2001. I wasn't going to be that picky about it.

To the best of my knowledge, there were no overt changes to the engine between 2002 and 2003. That's why I used the total sales for a sample population. That said. There could have been running changes. These are made whenever they find an issue, change from one supplier to another, or even alter the assembly process to speed things up. These types of changes might be made two or three times a calendar year and have nothing to do with the model year. So... we really don't have any clue what the total number of vehicles affected might be.

In fact, not only do we not know how many vehicles are affected, we also don't know what the defect is. We don't know if there is a defect, or if this was dealer error. We don't know if the vehicle was damaged or vandalized (unknown to you). We don't know if there are other reports that simply have not been reported to the NHTSA. We don't know what if this has happened in Europe, Australia, the Philipines, Singapore, Japan, China, or any of the other markets where the CR-V is sold.

Honestly. We don't know jack.

All we really know is that you had an upsetting ordeal. I think we're all very sad to be reading about it. It's certainly something that we'll keep an eye on.

varmint

Stevedebi - I think you already know this, but just for the record. Honda does not issue recalls. At least not by themselves. The NHTSA issues recalls. Honda would then announce it. The NHTSA sets up investigations and decides if an issue needs to be addressed with a recall. Naturally, they will work with the manufacturer and it is in the best interest of the manufacturer to cooperate.

Think about it this way. If a manufacturer denies a problem and the NHTSA issues a recall. The manufacturer can no longer sell that particular vehicle in the USA. Not until the problem is fixed. Trust me. That would be bad. The NHTSA does not design fixes. So, working with the NHTSA on the issue, and learning as much as possible, is the best way for the manufacturer to develop a fix for the issue BEOFRE a recall is issued.

If you think that Honda is slow to react to a problem, ask the owners of early 2002 models. They may have had their cars towed from their driveways or places of work as Honda addressed the seatbelt recall tht was issued in the first few months of sales.

varmint

I know that the guy who designs fixes for the CR-V in the US market reads these forums. I haven't heard from him in a long time, but he is probably still out there.

varmint

Anybody else enjoying a little snow?

sabrina9

That's interesting Varmint, thanks. I didn't know the initial action for recall came from the NHTSA.

stevedebi

Yes, I knew that the NHTSA issed the recalls (thanks for the clarification), but I think my original point is still valid. Honda cares about their customers, and know that people pay a premium for their quality.

Maybe I'm wrong, but they definitely have a different feel to the after sale service than other brands I have owned in the past...

inkie

You mentioned spontaneous combustion in your message. Are you aware that spontaneous combustion ia a chemical reaction? Meaning: the ignition of a substance from the rapid oxidation of its own constituents without heat from any external source. If you or your lawyer heard this mentioned than saturated rags or other material may have caused your car to burn as my previous post suggested. But once ignition occurred it had to be exposed to flammable material or fluid to do such damage.

andrelaplume

There is a report...who has it and why won't it be released? Sue the party who has the report and will not release it!

varmint

Stevedebi - I tend to agree. Which is why I mentioned the actions taken with the seatbelt recall. I just wanted to clarify the recall process.

"Sue the party who has the report and will not release it!" - Andreaplume

Sue them for what?!?!

kizhe

The car, which was parked close to mine, cought the fire this morning.
This was a small Toyota and cause of the fire was electrical (owner just started the engine in the cold weather).
Fire truck came within 5 minutes (!) and stopped the fire.

ateixeira

NHTSA may issue recalls, but a manufacturer can initiate it. In other words, some are voluntary (mfr. takes responsibility) and other are mandated by NHTSA (mfr. in denial?).

How many vehicles were involved in that recall? I think that really narrows it down a lot.

-juice

varmint

Right. Technically, these are issued as "stop sales", but I think they are recorded as recalls once the NHTSA is provided with all the details. This is what Honda did with the seat belts. They found the issue during in-house testing and took action themselves. At least one or two of the Escape's recalls were also stop sales.

ateixeira

You mean the one for the steering wheels coming off, or the rear wheel bearing failing and letting the rear wheel come completely off? )

Sorry, personal beef there, since I went to Edmunds Live in 2000 and that "stop sale" also meant I could not even test drive one at that event.

-juice

varmint

Was it a wheel bearing, or a control arm that might rust through and come apart? Actually, I think it was the problem with the windsheild wiper. Or at least that was one of the stop sales.

As long as we're talking about the Escape... The NHTSA seems to have a pretty firm definition of what constitutes a "safety-related" defect as well. It was well documented that several models of the Escape and Tribute would stall without warning. Many thought that this should be addressed with a recall, but all the fixes that were issued were done as TSBs.

ateixeira

I just remember the "wheel could fall off" part relating to two recalls. Scary stuff, no?! )

The PR machine is working over time. My wife is in PR so I'm allowed to say that. I remember a recall where an automaker had an accelerator that could stick in the full open position. Their spin was that it could "increase stopping distances". LOL

That's why NHTSA is around, as a reality check. They'd say something like it could cause the driver to lose control and crash the vehicle.

-juice

sabrina9

inkie: Only meant spontaneous combustion to imply that the car flamed with absolutely no warning - no technical term meant.

Kizhe: You mean to tell me a fire happened this MORNING and it was already suspected electrical. Need those people to work for Honda. In two months I can't even get them to admit they sell CRV's (what type of cars we sell is proprietarty, sorry).LOL.

Kidding aside, can someone explain to me how an electrical problem actually causes a fire in a car. I understand in a house, but are we talking about bascally an overheated wire that burns through its insulation, then the spark ignites something else. Since most of the engine area is metal, what exactly fuels the fire? I understand how a house wire overheats, but assuming no changes by the owner, how does a car wire overheat, especially, in the case Kizhe saw, the car had just been started? Are we talking radio wires, defroster wires, that type of thing.

varmint

There are probaly a small number of plastics that will burn if subjected to intense heat. I would expect that most engine fires are the result of oil or fuel catching fire.

That's why the theory that the dealer's mechanic made a mistake with the oil change makes the most sense to me.

ateixeira

Probably spilled motor oil, grease, or gear oil.

I would not be surprised if we later see a TSB with special instructions for that recall, to at least clean/inspect a certain area for potential fires.

-juice

icvci

Well, that's a spooky story. I can't imagine the panic my wife would be in if that happened and our child was strapped in her carseat.

There are too many lawyers in this world. Ya gotta figure Honda would be more forthcoming if they didn't have to CTA. Is the vehicle still around? Could you go to the local fire department and slide one of their inspectors a little cabbage to look it over?

And I thought my Maytag Neptune was a nightmare.

varmint

Juice - Right. Something like that could explain this. Which is why I'm reluctant to make the leap that there is some inherent defect with the vehicle. In my mind, it's far more likely that there is a defect with the mechanic. That makes the dealership responsible.

ateixeira

A TSB would address something like an installation procedure, or in this instance the recall procedure. It could be something that Honda would change in its recommended procedure to prevent mistakes, though.

I'm trying to come up with an example. Subaru issued one for installing new wheel bearings on Foresters because dealers were overtorqueing them, and they'd fail a 2nd time.

TSBs are issued for things as simple as additions to the owner's manual, even.

-juice

andrelaplume

I submit:

1) Buyer purchases NEW CRV thru Honda,
2) Buyer purchases warranty thru Honda,
3) Buyers car catches fire,
4) Honda Dealer takes possesion of buyers car,
5) Buyer says warranty should cover repair or replacement of CRV,
6) Dealer/Honda refute warranty claim stating cause of fire is not covered under warranty,
7) Dealer/Honda will not release cause of fire,
8) Dealer indirectly works for Honda Corp,
8) I say sue Honda

Honda must determine if whatever caused the fire was covered under the warranty...afterall it is their warranty. However, the buyer should not be expected to simply take Honda Corps word...'Well we won't tell you what caused the fire but rest assured it's not covered under your warranty'....who in their right mind would accept that!

Sabrina alludes to the fact that if the fire was 'covered' she would be entitled to a 'repair' or 'replacement' What that replacement would be can be argued later.

It is unfair for Honda NOT to release their report and thus the buyer suffers a depreciation and increased insurance premium loss.

Until proven otherwise, I say that Sabrina should sue to get whatever the value is of:

what her warranty stated would be covered +
whatever increased insurance premiums she pays until the issue is resolved less whatever the insurance has already paid her.

The ball is in Hondas court. If her fire was 'covered' she is out (monetarily) only the aggravation and emotional distress of the event. To prove the 'fire' was or was not covered she needs the report that is being withheld.

By the way, if Honda would show that the start of the fire was not due to a defect but rather to dealer service then I'd say move the lawsuit to the dealer.

Sorry but it sounds like Honda is covering either themselves or their dealer. I thought these games were only played with the domestics.

To be honest I like the CRV, as soon as the price comes down a bit (still selling at list where I am) I'd like to get one. I just keep hoping I see signs of Honda doing the right thing and resolving this issue....and if it turns out it's the dealers fault, Sabrinas fault or a freak accident....well at least we'd then ALL know and not be so suspicious!

kizhe

Otto von Bismark (Prussian Chancellor (1871-90), who unified Germany (for the first time :-) )
used to say: "Two things you don't want to watch being made: sausages and laws".
I would add to this: "You don't want to watch when they service/fix your car"... :-)
That's why I always try to do it myself if I can.
And nobody watch me! :-)

varmint

When I asked, "sue them for what?", I meant it literally. What criminal law has Honda broken?

'Honda must determine if whatever caused the fire was covered under the warranty..."

They did. No defect was found.

"However, the buyer should not be expected to simply take Honda Corps word."

If the buyer is not going to take Honda's word for it, what good is the report? You want to read, "no defect found", rather than hear it spoken? If they are going to lie about the results, why not lie on the report? If anything, the report is just going to make Honda's position look more official.

If the buyer chooses not to accept the manufacturer's investigation, the buyer can get a second opinion. The ball was in Sabrina's court. She dropped it. Or rather, she took the insurance company's money and passed the ball to them.

Kirstie_H

A magazine reporter is hoping to interview a driver who bought his/her car since 2001 and has a favorite interior feature (factory- or dealer-installed) that makes the whole car seem more enjoyable and well-built. (Examples: outstanding seat comfort, dynamic stereo, convenient storage pockets, high-quality leather, functional cupholders, etc.) Please send your brief comments, vehicle model name and daytime contact info to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than 12/17/03.

ateixeira

Picnic table, anyone? ;-)

-juice

andrelaplume

I was under the impression Honda never said there was or was not a defect...they just refused to honor the warranty. If Honda does not know what caused the fire, how do they know there was no defect? That left Sabrina in a position of taking the insurance money and getting a car or renting and paying out of her own pocket while things got straightened out....I could not afford to that myself, I'd hope my insurance company would pursue the matter but who knows...they may figure it is not worth their while and just raise my premiums.

So did Honda determine the cause of the fire or not? Did perhaps Honda determined the dealer was at fault but rather than mention that fact they just said it was not a defect? The whole thing just sounds fishy...sorry but I think if they can not determine what caused the problem, they should say so. If they determined what caused the problem, they should say so. That is all..

I looked at a Pilot tonight....much nicer than I thought.

sabrina9

Thanks for all the feedback. Good stuff. I think I have enough evidence to show it was not related to the oil change, but unfortunately can't get into that.

Let's say, COMPLETELY HYPOTHETICALLY (since it was raised), if the dealer did the o/c according to Honda training/specs, etc (or any other fix), and the fire or similar type catastropic problem happened. Do you think then it would be a Warranty claim or not? What if Honda then issues some TSB modifying the procedure as someone suggested? Would that change the answer.

Just wondering what people think. Again, this is hypothetical (at least at this time)

mikefm58

Me thinks the o/c was what caused the fire and there's a pi$$ing contest between Honda and the dealer in regards to was it done right or are the specs. from Honda what they should be. And neither wants to step up to the plate thus putting sabrina9 and the ins. companies and the lawyers in the middle.

Bottom line, in situations like this, sabrina9 loses (as we know what she's going thru), the ins. companies lose because they will pay something, Honda loses 'cuz they're getting a black eye in this as well as the dealer is too.
 
So who makes out?........Lawyers.

tcpip1

The 5th gear of my '89 Accord (228K miles) went bad two days ago. I was hoping it will last till the new Scion xB arrives in NJ. Now, it seems I need a replacement sooner. I did some research on this site and found that the new 2004 RAV4 has a new 2.4 engine (comparable to the CR-V), very good list of standard safety features (4-wheel ABS, emergency braking assist, traction control, stability control, and optional side curtain air bags), and the mpg 22/27 is a bit better than the 2004 CR-V. The pricing is also very competitive.

Have you looked at the new 2004 RAV4 when you bought your CR-V? Any "features" that turned you off?

Thanks.

tomk17

Tcpip1,
I've had great luck with both Toyota's and Honda's so I consider myself impartial. One main factor from me was the extra interior space the CRV offered. Check out KBB.com, then "Decision
Guide" on the left menu, then select "Side-by-Side Comparison". This lets you select and compare many detailed specs, dimensions, and features between up to 4 vehicle. You'll see some significant differences in rear seat leg room (like 5") and some front seat dimensions as well. The safety "Stars" rating is a bit better for the CRV also for what thats worth. Toyota options seem to realy add up costwise also these days as compared to the LX / EX packages Honda offers. Good Luck

varmint

Sabrina - I would assume that if Honda provides faulty documentation/instructions to the dealer (which results in a problem), then responsibility falls on Honda.

How that would be settled could vary. The dealer may have to make reparations with you. Then go after Honda for reimbursement. Or it might just come down directly from Honda.

Tcpip1 - Depends. What are you going to use it for?

stevedebi

What? 27 MPG Highway for the new RAV4? The old engine got over 30MPG...

With all the lowering of MPG by Toyota, I suppose they NEED the high mileage of the Prius, otherwise their corporate fuel economy ratings would be in the toilet.