First of all, contrary to what you may believe, there are buyers out there who specifically do NOT want ABS on their cars. I've had quite a few of these people including a couple of prefessional drivers who claim that ABS equipped cars take longer to stop on dry payment. Drivers in places like California and Arizona would have little use for ABS anyway.
Side bags..personally, I think Honda should simply raise the prices by 250.00 or whatever and include them. Still...some buyers want the choice and others are afraid of them.
Only game in town? well..I for one have never felt that way.
As far as pricing, I'll ask you...What would you do? Would you cheap sell or discount a hot moving product that you can't get enough of?
Why does a product have to be discounted anyway?
If you want a deep discount...not a problem! It just won't be on a CRV at least for the meantime.
You also mentioned arrogant attitudes. well, I hope my responses haven't sounded arrogant. I simply responded to the points you brought up.
There is never an excuse for arrogance in this or in any retail business.
The overall long term value is what counts. Used Odysseys and CRVS are selling for close to what they were new in some cases. It's the overall cost of ownership that determines price.
Is the extended warranty on the 02 CRV a good buy. Honda wants $1200 but haven't yet decided to go for it or not. A/C or tranny would be biggest expenses. Any comments or thoughts.
Purchased my eternal blue EX-automatic for 22,550 including front guards and security system.
"As far as pricing, I'll ask you...What would you do? Would you cheap sell or discount a hot moving product that you can't get enough of?"
If I was interested in customer satisfaction and long term loyalty I would probably offer a discount even if I didn't have to. I got $1,000 off MSRP on an '02 CRV. I had to go about 150 miles from home to get it. I mentioned this to the local dealer and they refused to offer any discount. I will be in the market for a new Civic in about 3 years when daughter goes to college. Will I buy locally? No. I will go to the dealer who gave me the deal on my CRV. Some dealers take a long term view and apparently feel that it pays off.
Bob and Juice - Interesting. Regardless, given that the Forester L costs as much as an EX CR-V (pre '02 model) and has similar levels of equipment, it's safe to say that Subaru simply doesn't offer a "base model" and makes you pay for the ABS whether you want it or not. The lack of a true base model Forester also does little to support the argument that Honda is somehow missing the boat.
Newvehiclein02 - The fact that some manufacturers offer gobs of options is only a problem because it drives up the price of the vehicle and increases the difficulty to manufacture them (thus lowering reliability).
The only time is presents a problem to the consumer is when they tie certain options into packages with other things that aren't needed. For example: the Santa Fe (I spelled it right this time). If you want ABS, you got to shell out $990 and have to take the cargo cover, cargo mat, wintergreen air freshener, fuzzy dice... Most of the time, this isn't a big deal, but there are times when the marketing guys get out of hand.
Honda has been mostly successful with loading their cars with everything you need, nothing you don't. Obviously, they can't please everybody. But they seem to get pretty close.
Zops - An extended warranty is good for peace of mind. If you already have that, then you don't need a warranty. The 1st gen CR-V has been ranked the most reliable vehicle on the market. The new one is based largely on the new Civic, which has also been pretty reliable. So I'd guess that the extended warranty isn't worth it. However, this is a first year model and anything can happen.
Loyalty cannot be bought. If I get a good deal on a car from a dealer or manufacturer, I'll go back there expecting a good deal on the next car. If I don't get it, I'll go to the next place. Bargain shoppers have no loyalty. IMHO, focusing on customer service would be a better angle to take.
You said "The fact that some manufacturers offer gobs of options is ONLY a problem because it drives up the price of the vehicle and increases the difficulty to manufacture them (thus lowering reliability)." I added the emphasis on only.
You really think that's the ONLY problem of offering so many options? You don't think it's a problem that offering tons of options makes it more difficult for the average consumer to buy the vehicle he wants with relatively little headache, perhaps driving them to another make?
I certainly do and I can't believe I'm the only one.
The Forester L is the cheapest Forester offered! Wouldn't you call that a *base* model? The lowest trim level in any brand, be it Honda, Subaru or Acura is always the *base* model IMO.
The customer is NOT always right. Just because they want, or don't want something, doesn't mean they're correct.
The overwhelming opinion among automotive experts is that ABS is better than non-ABS. I'm sure there will always be a few who disagree. I'll side with the majority here.
Of course, you are correct. My point was that not everyone is enthralled with ABS! The previous poster seemed to imply that it should be standard equipment on all models.
As far as loyalty go's...I would like to think loyalty wouldn't be based on price alone but instead, on the whole buying experience and after sale service. I recently lost a CRV sale to another dealership over something like 500.00.
Later I found out that they gave her 1500.00 less for the trade than we were going to. Sometimes a low price isn't what t seems.
When it's raining, do you notice the water beads flow thru between the rubber and the glass and into the inside of the door?
My wife's 01 CRV has a gap between the rubber and the glass window so the water flows inside the door. And when you try to open down the windows and close them up the water beads stay on the glass. Is this normal to CRVs?
"I will be in the market for a new Civic in about 3 years when daughter goes to college. Will I buy locally? No. I will go to the dealer who gave me the deal on my CRV."
I understand how you feel about going back to where you had the best luck, even if it is a long drive. I too felt the same way when I bought my Odyssey in Nov. 1999. But after doing my homework, I still looked at the closest Honda dealership first simply because I didn't want to drive an hour. And I did eventually buy my Accord at that dealer and my CRV at the next closest dealer simply because the closest dealer didn't have the color and model CRV I wanted.
Oh and regarding your comment on long term loyalty, that's a thing of the past.
I'm a pretty loyal guy. If my barber is off, I'll reschedule ect.
But I know what you mean...too bad.
I guess what bothered me was that poster's comments about price buying loyalty.
I have a lot of repeat and referral business and would like to think that my personality and service just *might* have something to do with it.
And...I also wonder, if, when the time to buy that Civic arrives, that the poster just *might* price shop that far away dealership that they now claim to be loyal to? Hmmm.
It doesn't bother me that a dealer insists on MSRP, or that another dealer attempts to charge more than MSRP.
From what I've seen here, I know that I can find a CRV in Oklahoma for $318 over invoice. I know that big discounts are possible in other places as well. When it comes time to buy I'll give my local dealer first shot at my business, but I won't consider paying anywhere close to MSRP.
If I absolutely had to have a vehicle that no dealers were discounting, such as is apparently the case with the MDX, then I'd pay MSRP. But with the CRV, if the local dealer only sees the market in local terms (only Honda dealer in town, next one is 40 miles south, then 70 miles north) then it's a good excuse for a road trip.
This forum provides some great info and it puts me in the position of making a fully informed decision. I seem to remember from eonomics classes long ago that one of the basic, but often erroneous, assumptions of traditional market theories was a free flow of information. Now I'll know if a vehicle is generally discounted, occasionally discounted or, rarely, never discounted. I only wish that I had that option when I purchased my new vehicles in '79, '82, '87 & '93.
Location has a big impact on prices. For example, when I bought my last car, I was able to save $800 by driving 50 miles outside the local area (SF Bay). My guess is that they were able to give this discount not because they were striving to keep me as a long term customer, but because their overhead costs were lower due to the fact that they are located outside the Bay Area.
More remote dealers often have to offer lower prices to get buyers to shop there, and they can offer lower prices because their costs are lower.
Newvehiclein02 - I'm a fairly lazy guy. Looking behind curtain number one I see the car that I want. Looking behind curtain number two, I see my second choice. Even a lazy guy like me will at least figure out what the option packages mean before accepting defeat and spending $20K on a car that isn't my first choice. No doubt it's a pain in the bottom, but it's not a deal breaker.
Bob - I'm trying to make the distinction between a "base model" car and one that happens to be the lowest trim level. Would you call a TL without the Type S enhancements a "base model" car? If so, how about we compare a base TL to a base Legacy and we'll see who gets the short stick on standard equipment?
Without going into extreme detail, I'm comparing costs as well as equipment levels. So for someone to say that Honda is forcing it's customers to buy the EX, but Subaru is not is nonsense. Subaru is forcing you to buy the EX comparable version of the Forester and does not offer an LX comparable trim.
When those auto experts start buying 400,000 Accords, 300,000 Civics, and 120,000 CR-Vs every year, Honda will adjust their products to meet their needs.
<< Would you call a TL without the Type S enhancements a "base model" car? If so, how about we compare a base TL to a base Legacy and we'll see who gets the short stick on standard equipment? >>
Yes, I would. To most people, myself included, "base" means the the entry-level (cheapest) version of any given model.
No, I wouldn't compare a base Acura TL to a base Subaru Legacy. They're in different market segments, and really don't compete for customers. I would compare, however, a base Acura TL to a base BMW 3-series.
I have bought several Honda/Acura products and I really like their packaging. I recently bought a CR-V EX auto and I thought the items included in the package were excellent for the price. I know not everyone wants all of the items Honda packages together, but for me it was exactly what I was looking for. Also, their consistency in how they package their cars builds a loyalty of sorts. I always know without looking carefully that all the Honda LX models are more basic and usually don't include ABS and the EX models are more feature laden. It is very simple and works for me.
There are instances where Honda has offered ABS on LX models, like my 2000 Accord LX-V6, but the Accord sells in very high numbers and probably is worth the broader feature packages. Maybe if the CR-V gets up to 400,000 annually it will get similar treatment.
Very interesting comments regarding pricing and customer loyalty. I think isellhondas is absolutely right about the importance of the entire buying experience and the importance of relationships. I bought two Hondas previously from the same salesman at two different dealerships. I followed him to a different dealership the second time because he made the buying experience pleasant and gave me a great deal. I trusted him to give me a good deal without a lot of hassle. (I would love to buy another automobile from him, but that was in another location far from my current home).
In my current situation, I have found a salesman that seems to want my business and is giving me a good deal. I will be loyal in the sense that I will go back to him and give him the first shot at my business next time. If he gives me a reasonable deal I will probably give him my business. Honestly, I would probably go elsewhere if I felt like I could do substantially better, but based on the first experience I doubt that will happen. The local dealership will be the LAST place I will look. I don't blame them for charging market prices, but they did not act like they wanted my business. If they had come anywhere in the ball park I would have preferred to stay local. They wouldn't budge.
I think loyalty is still alive. It doesn't mean that I will go back to the same place if they suddenly change their philosophy. It means that I will give individuals that have earned my trust a second shot at my business. It also means that I will be willing to pay slightly more to deal with someone who I trust not to pull a fast one on me. It is the entire experience, but price is a big part of it.
I know this is getting long, but I have a question. For those of you who say loyalty is not a factor - why are some dealerships willing to offer discounts on automobiles that are in short supply and high demand? What is their incentive? I'm really curious.
I can honestly say that of the last 5 new vehicles I bought that it took at least 3 different trips to dealers for each car to find the deal I was looking for. I've found that here in Orlando, the dealers will deal only if A) you're ready to buy a car right then and they know you're willing to drive across town to get the deal you're looking for.
Oh, but I always do my homework first before expecting a good deal. When I bought the Odyssey I knew I wouldn't get anything below MSRP. But I knew they were a hot vehicle and jumped at one for MSRP, since I knew they would be marking them up soon.
This is going better than I thought. To address a few posts: -Yes, not everyone wants ABS,but this may have to do with actually paying for it. IMO,if a vehicle was offered with or without ABS for the same price,the ovewhelming majority would take it because the majority of experts agree it is superior to non abs. Heck,the same could be said of airbags,not everyone wants them but I for one believe that the safety concerns supercede everything else. There will always be one or two people who swear they will be involved in the 1% of auto accidents where not having them would be beneficial. Anythings possible. I'll go with the 99%. And to the person who thought I was arrogant to assume everyone wants them,does that person also think BMW,Mercedes,Lexus,Subuaru,and Infiniti are arrogant as well by making them standard on all vehicles? Safety items IMO should not be an option. -If the overall sales and service experience at the dealership should be the main reason for purchasing ,then everyone would be driving a Saturn. -Anyone who pays the same for a 1 or 2 year old vehicle as they would for a new one should see a Doctor. This goes against all laws of auto economics. EVERY new vehicle depreciates,even Hondas, NO exceptions. BTW,if this is true with Honda's,then upon trade-in, the dealer should also pay you the same price they originally paid the Mfg. for the car when it was new and that is not going to happen. -I am not saying the dealers are setting an artificial demand,it is the Honda brass who I would have to think get input from their top dealers before deciding on production issues. -Some dealers,as others have pointed out look at the long term relationship,not just the quick profit. But I do agree that dealership loyalty is nowhere near where it used to be. If I were a dealer,I would charge less than the others to try to earn a customer's business while still making plenty of profit on a CRV,and treat them with respect. A happy customer may return with their friends;a disgruntled one most definitely will not.Plus,when the wheels are turned in the future,I will be better prepared than the other dealers.
Bob - Have I in some way insulted the honour of the realm of Subarudom by suggesting that there is no trim level for the Forester that is both inexpensive and lightly equipped?
Sarcasm aside, is there something to this debate other than the differences in conotation between the terms "base model" and "lowest trim level"? Because to me, "base model" means a stripped car; no abs, no moonroof, no Bose system, no heated seats... This is not the same thing as the "lowest trim level" on a $40K sports sedan. For the purpose of the original discussion, that was the distinction I made. If those words don't work for you, I'm open to suggestions. However, they are most certainly not the same thing.
Sure, if a vehicle was offered with or without ABS for the same price, the majority would take it.
And if pigs had wheels they'd be bicycles.
Unfortunately ABS is not free, so if you want it, you have to pay for it. Some automakers choose to put in all their models and build it into the price. Others, like Honda with the CR-V, give you the option of not paying for it. Nothing wrong with either scenario - it's up to the consumer to decide whether it is worth it for them.
Which brings up another point regarding price. Ultimately, on any purchase, it is the buyer that sets the price, not the dealer or manufacturer. If you, as the consumer, don't feel the value of the Odyssey warrants its MSRP price tag, it's your prerogative to settle for another car at a lower price. This is the same whether the car is new or used. Somebody IS paying MSRP for a used Odyssey, because they feel it is WORTH IT. Depreciation is not etched in stone - it is an estimate determined by the market, and thus, by the consumer.
Inexpensive, yes, about $18.9k for an L 5 speed. Lightly equipped no, so you're half right.
I didn't realize the ABS thing would spark up such a debate! Let's just say a lot of customers would prefer it if Honda offered ABS at least as an option on the LX.
Regarding those 25 or 34 options Subaru offers, most of them are accessories like a dog guard, ski rack, bike rack, and stuff like that. If you visit a dealership, you'd be hard pressed to find an L model with more than a couple minor items, if any.
where you and I disagree is, I think there's no difference between "base" and "lowest trim level." To me those terms are interchangeable. You feel otherwise.
Altoon - I don't know if you meant to, but you bring up an interesting point. You feel loyalty to a particular salesperson because he gave you a good deal AND treated you well. However, would you feel the same loyalty if he treated you well, but did not give you a good deal? Or if you gave you a good deal and spat on your shoes?
I'm guessing probably not. In that case, it's pretty clear that lower prices alone does not inspire loyalty and people who shop for bargain prices as their primary goal are not going to be particularly loyal.
Rutger - Alright! Something for nothing? Sign me up! But that's not the case. The Subaru that Bob and I have been discussing does indeed have ABS as standard equipment, but it costs just as much as the top level CR-V. Where's the benefit to the consumer?
As for safety items being standard... I suspect that the majority of experts will also tell you that auto emissions are damaging the entire planet. Nevermind 1% of the motorists who happen to be involved in an accident. So every car in every trim level should be an SULEV. And they should offer ABS, the LATCH system, and good tires (because good tires are just as important as ABS or AWD). While we're at it... five point harnesses are a good safety feature as well.
This may seem like a silly question but would I do better with a dealer if I say I'll take the car anytime within the next six months that he can find me the one I want? I.E., I'm in no hurry at all and won't be a bother. I obviously would leave him a good deposit as long as we fix the price. Would that approach give me a better chance to get a decent price?
It's harder to be loyal when you're constantly dealing with a changing cast of characters. With the exception of our Mazda dealer here in town there's no continuity in sales/service staff etc. Our reecent experiences with the Mazda dealer was the first time in years where the salesperson was still working at the dealership by the time we came back for our first service appointment!!!! You need consistency and predictability if you want loyalty. Would you want to be changing your doctor every 3 months????
As has become a habit during the last month, I drove by a Honda dealership lot today...just to see if any new ones were in.
Yes, I do want the Canadian version but must admit it may be more problematic and risky than I am comfortable with.
I am color shopping/comparing. It was nirvana tonight (albeit dark). The super size car carrier had unloaded four and had an additional four on his rig. The only color absent was the Mohave Mist, which I have seen previously (and like).I'm trying to see if I can desensitize myself to the tan interiors as they are unfortunately the only choice in the exterior colors I like.I'll go over tomorrow early in the morning and check them out in the daylight.
The bottom line is......I should know in the next few weeks if I have a job past July. Its a combination of the attack on the WTC, the economy and the not for profit world in New York State.
I've already been approved for the loan at 6.25% for 5 OR 6 years...which I think is pretty good.
At the moment I am listing towards an LX with side air bags and upgraded tires.I learned to drive where snow is measured in FEET not in inches. I've never had ABS and am well trained in "pumping my brakes." I don't want a moon roof.
Most importantly, I would like to thank everyone for their comments in this board. I have learned a lot (like how important the correct tires are). I have no doubt the CR-V is the right vehicle for me. Now if I can just survive this recession....I'll be driving one soon!!!!
Well I have now had my first taste of driving while needing the RT4WD. We got 12 plus inches of snow the past two days and I have to be on the road all day around town. If there is ANY delay in this system I sure could not tell it, so I'm not sure what all this big discussion has been over who has the best traction in snow. The V just chugged along on the snow, slush, ice and snow mix and ice tonight. I just can't tell you how nice this vehicle handled the bad weather! I went 180 miles in two days with defrost on(A/C), never got above 40 and all types of snowy conditions and still managed 21.5 mpg. Even engaged the ABS a few times.;-)
I've bought many vehicles from Rule Honda in Stauton, VA and you will not find a better place to buy a Honda or VW. Many of my friends and relatives have purchased there even if is 200 miles away and they say they will go back again! So my point is that Dealer loyalty is not dead and can still be found but you do have to look hard to find them.
Varmit, my brother didn't show up at Xmas for the Subie/CR-V showdown, he said he was sick but we know the real reason!!!!!
My wife drives a 99 CRV EX, so I was curious to see the redesign in 2002.
I live near a Honda dealer in west suburban Chicago and witness daily changes in their inventory. What gets me is how they are accessorizing the hell out of these CRV's....In many instances I have seen LX's gain alloy wheels; LX's and EX's with running boards, splash guards, door edge guards, roof racks etc etc....next thing you know the car is marked up to $24,000- $25,000. Of course they know some impatient consumer who wants a CRV NOW will, infact, buy it with all those unnecessary accessories. Between the Odyssey and the new CRV, Honda dealers must be laughing all the way to the bank.
p.s. I think the new CRV's are nice, but I still like my '99 better.
1. In the new car market, it is understood that while dealers are free to charge whatever they want, the price is generally discounted from list. A justifiable exception is when a model is in greater demand than supply for a full model year or more. In that situation, where not everyone who wants one is going to get one, a higher market price is justified to help clear the market. In the case of the CR-V, the consensus is that supply will catch up with demand in a matter of months. The premium pricing they're charging now is just gouging the people that want or need the car sooner. Other dealers (not just Honda?s) do this with their "hot new model" as well.
You may say then, well why don't you just wait until prices come down? The problem is my family never buys cars until we need them. Generally, one of our cars has stopped running. We need a new car within a matter of weeks. So then the question is, should we get the car we really want and pay sticker, or take the second choice at $500 over invoice? Well, we hope to have the new car for 8-10 years, we should get the one we really want. And we agree to pay sticker. Still, I don't like it. And now that I know how Honda dealers operate, I'm going to think twice about considering another one in the future.
2. Regarding all the pricing talk, let's not overstate the dealer-buyer relationship. I buy a new car not more than every 3-5 years. All I really want out of a dealer's sales department is a good price, with the least amount of hassle. Some people have talked about "personality and service." Other than being treated with a reasonable amount of respect (and not dismissively), I don't care much about the dealer's personality; I'm not going there to make friends. And what "service" do they provide? I do all the research on the car myself and don't need help with financing or anything. It isn't "good customer service" just because the dealer smiles and tells me in a friendly voice that the CR-V is only going for list price. I still feel I'm being gouged.
I agree with stoner - this dealer 'feel-good' stuff is totally overated. Just give me the vehicle and I hope never to be back for 5-6 yrs (unless you bought a Chrysler, Ford or Kia). The new V is much nicer that the old one, but I won't be trading ours in - it seems that even Hondas get poor resale value when dealing with a Honda dealer. Isellhonda come clean: you make 2-3 times the profit on a used than a new vehicle, right? I felt like I was driving a Neon when talking trade-in value. Bogus experience.
I can't remember where I read it - here or the CRVIX but someone else reported in the 2002 CRV that they could feel a vibration in the brake pedal when the windshield wipers were on. Well, I felt it too and was wondering if anyone knew what was causing this. I've had many Honda cars and I''ve never experienced this before. I it just that the wiper motor is thisclose to the brake pedal or is this something that should get checked out
I think we can agree that different people want different things when they shop for a car. After we have decided on the type of car we want, we go to the dealership with certain hopes and expectations in mind. Some care only about price and are willing to so whatever they can to get the price they want (as isellhondas pointed out these people sometimes overlook other things such as trade in value). Others want a good price, but also want to keep the games and hassle to a minimum. Despite what some may think, for some people the relationship with the dealer is important.
If you come away feeling like the buying experience met (or exceeded) your expectations you feel good. You are more likely to go back to that dealership (or salesperson) and give them a shot at your business the next time. That is loyalty and is all the dealership can hope for. It doesn't mean that you will continue to buy from that salesperson if they don't meet your expectations the next time. This is not "feel-good nonsense". It is rational behavior. Of course in these days of internet buying, the relationship is taken out of the equation and it becomes easy to compare prices. For this reason, it is probably true that loyalty is less than it used to be. Nevertheless, speaking only for myself, I will remember the salesman that gave me a good deal when he didn't have to and I will go to him first when I buy my next vehicle.
A good salesperson will go to bat for his customer if necessary. On more than one ocassion I have convinced our service department that an out of warranty repair should be covered for a customer who has bought three cars from me and referred others.
As far as paying sticker...well, why not? why does everything in this world have to be "discounted" in order for a buyer to feel good.
Probably human nature, I guess.
Again, at least in my opinion, the defination of value is long term satisfaction with the product.
Personally, I won't deal with a dirtbag, no matter how low the price.
And...no, zircon, your numbers are way off, at least in our store.
in small town, rural America, do long-term customer-dealer relationships occur, but I doubt for most people living in an urban environment, that so-called "relationship" is nothing more than a pipe dream. I'm sure there are some cases where it does occur, but it's clearly the exception, not the rule.
I've been buying vehicles ever since 1965, and never in that time did I ever develop a long-term relationship with any dealer or salesman. It's been my experience that the salesman and dealer want to be your best friend only to make the sale. Once the sale is made, they could care less about you.
Just a personal opinion here. I wish Honda would offer a safety pack that would include ABS and side air bags and offer it on the LX models throughout its line. I can understand leaving the DXs at their price points. A lot of people don't want the moonroof and the decrease in interior head room, but are forced to take it in the cars at least to get ABS. Equip maybe 10% of the LXs that way and see how they sell. Some people will pay up for safety even while buying a lower trim model. It all depends on what is important to you. I applaud VW for making ABS, side air bags, and side head curtains standard on all models period, regardless of trim level. If you mass produce it, the cost per unit comes down. Saturn does the same for the L's and throws in traction control. My Elantra GT has ABS, traction control, 4 wheel discs, etc., and cost me less than $16K and has been great for 18,000 miles so far. Not comparing Hyundai to Honda, just making a point about content. Safety features should be available to as wide a range of car buyer affordability as possible. Again, just one person's opinion.
Become buddies with the Sales Manager, not the Salesman. In my experience, they are more likley to stick around at a dealership. Getting to know them is tougher, but not impossible. My father visits with his each time he brings in the car.
Maybe Isell can elaborate on how to go about it, but one of the best ways to get a salesperson on your side is to make things easier for them. Do your research, explain what you know, and don't waste their time. A little sugar can go a long way.
mpgman - I agree. It would be nice if Honda offered ABS and side airbags are part of a package. While it would force buyers to pay for both, at least they are related items (from the customers perspective). But I think that making them standard on the lowest trim model is a mistake.
From one point of view (let the consumer rule), the logical thing is to offer a smorgasbord of options and let buyers pick what they want. Packaging makes some options more affordable. I tend to think mpgman is right in that safety options should be made as affordable as possible.
If consumers had full right to choose, many would not choose to pay for air bags or even seat belts. We force consumers to pay for some safety features by removing their free will to some extent; it isn't legal to sell a car without turn signals, for example.
Back to ABS. ABS should at least be available to those who want it. Beyond that, I'd have extra respect for any maker demonstrating leadership by trying hard to make ABS or side curtains as affordable as possible with attractive bundling to reduce costs. Just my opinion. :-)
Comments
Below is Edmunds link as to what is standard on the Legacy L. I'd say it's pretty nicely equipped without any options.
Bob
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2002/subaru/legacy/lawd4drsedan25l4cyl5m/standard.html?id=lin0014
Side bags..personally, I think Honda should simply raise the prices by 250.00 or whatever and include them. Still...some buyers want the choice and others are afraid of them.
Only game in town? well..I for one have never felt that way.
As far as pricing, I'll ask you...What would you do? Would you cheap sell or discount a hot moving product that you can't get enough of?
Why does a product have to be discounted anyway?
If you want a deep discount...not a problem! It just won't be on a CRV at least for the meantime.
You also mentioned arrogant attitudes. well, I hope my responses haven't sounded arrogant. I simply responded to the points you brought up.
There is never an excuse for arrogance in this or in any retail business.
The overall long term value is what counts. Used Odysseys and CRVS are selling for close to what they were new in some cases. It's the overall cost of ownership that determines price.
Honda wants $1200 but haven't yet decided to go for it or not.
A/C or tranny would be biggest expenses.
Any comments or thoughts.
Purchased my eternal blue EX-automatic for 22,550 including front guards and security system.
Even if you are right, you don't think 25 is too many?
When it comes to equipping cars I call Toyota the Japanese GM, maybe Subaru should get that title.
"As far as pricing, I'll ask you...What would you do? Would you cheap sell or discount a hot moving product that you can't get enough of?"
If I was interested in customer satisfaction and long term loyalty I would probably offer a discount even if I didn't have to. I got $1,000 off MSRP on an '02 CRV. I had to go about 150 miles from home to get it. I mentioned this to the local dealer and they refused to offer any discount. I will be in the market for a new Civic in about 3 years when daughter goes to college. Will I buy locally? No. I will go to the dealer who gave me the deal on my CRV. Some dealers take a long term view and apparently feel that it pays off.
The new CRV is a great product at a great price. I doubt if much loyalty would be earned by discounting the product.
I don't happen to think it makes a merchant a bad guy if he/she sells a product for market value.
Newvehiclein02 - The fact that some manufacturers offer gobs of options is only a problem because it drives up the price of the vehicle and increases the difficulty to manufacture them (thus lowering reliability).
The only time is presents a problem to the consumer is when they tie certain options into packages with other things that aren't needed. For example: the Santa Fe (I spelled it right this time). If you want ABS, you got to shell out $990 and have to take the cargo cover, cargo mat, wintergreen air freshener, fuzzy dice... Most of the time, this isn't a big deal, but there are times when the marketing guys get out of hand.
Honda has been mostly successful with loading their cars with everything you need, nothing you don't. Obviously, they can't please everybody. But they seem to get pretty close.
Zops - An extended warranty is good for peace of mind. If you already have that, then you don't need a warranty.
in the context of offering incentives or other tactics.
You really think that's the ONLY problem of offering so many options? You don't think it's a problem that offering tons of options makes it more difficult for the average consumer to buy the vehicle he wants with relatively little headache, perhaps driving them to another make?
I certainly do and I can't believe I'm the only one.
Bob
The overwhelming opinion among automotive experts is that ABS is better than non-ABS. I'm sure there will always be a few who disagree. I'll side with the majority here.
Bob
As far as loyalty go's...I would like to think loyalty wouldn't be based on price alone but instead, on the whole buying experience and after sale service. I recently lost a CRV sale to another dealership over something like 500.00.
Later I found out that they gave her 1500.00 less for the trade than we were going to. Sometimes a low price isn't what t seems.
My wife's 01 CRV has a gap between the rubber and the glass window so the water flows inside the door. And when you try to open down the windows and close them up the water beads stay on the glass. Is this normal to CRVs?
Thanks for your input.
"I will be in the market for a new Civic in about 3 years when daughter goes to college. Will I buy locally? No. I will go to the dealer who gave me the deal on my CRV."
I understand how you feel about going back to where you had the best luck, even if it is a long drive. I too felt the same way when I bought my Odyssey in Nov. 1999. But after doing my homework, I still looked at the closest Honda dealership first simply because I didn't want to drive an hour. And I did eventually buy my Accord at that dealer and my CRV at the next closest dealer simply because the closest dealer didn't have the color and model CRV I wanted.
Oh and regarding your comment on long term loyalty, that's a thing of the past.
Just my humble opinion.
But I know what you mean...too bad.
I guess what bothered me was that poster's comments about price buying loyalty.
I have a lot of repeat and referral business and would like to think that my personality and service just *might* have something to do with it.
And...I also wonder, if, when the time to buy that Civic arrives, that the poster just *might* price shop that far away dealership that they now claim to be loyal to? Hmmm.
From what I've seen here, I know that I can find a CRV in Oklahoma for $318 over invoice. I know that big discounts are possible in other places as well. When it comes time to buy I'll give my local dealer first shot at my business, but I won't consider paying anywhere close to MSRP.
If I absolutely had to have a vehicle that no dealers were discounting, such as is apparently the case with the MDX, then I'd pay MSRP. But with the CRV, if the local dealer only sees the market in local terms (only Honda dealer in town, next one is 40 miles south, then 70 miles north) then it's a good excuse for a road trip.
This forum provides some great info and it puts me in the position of making a fully informed decision. I seem to remember from eonomics classes long ago that one of the basic, but often erroneous, assumptions of traditional market theories was a free flow of information. Now I'll know if a vehicle is generally discounted, occasionally discounted or, rarely, never discounted. I only wish that I had that option when I purchased my new vehicles in '79, '82, '87 & '93.
More remote dealers often have to offer lower prices to get buyers to shop there, and they can offer lower prices because their costs are lower.
Bob - I'm trying to make the distinction between a "base model" car and one that happens to be the lowest trim level. Would you call a TL without the Type S enhancements a "base model" car? If so, how about we compare a base TL to a base Legacy and we'll see who gets the short stick on standard equipment?
Without going into extreme detail, I'm comparing costs as well as equipment levels. So for someone to say that Honda is forcing it's customers to buy the EX, but Subaru is not is nonsense. Subaru is forcing you to buy the EX comparable version of the Forester and does not offer an LX comparable trim.
When those auto experts start buying 400,000 Accords, 300,000 Civics, and 120,000 CR-Vs every year, Honda will adjust their products to meet their needs.
They are in very short supply given the high demand. Hopefully they will be able to catch up!
Yes, I would. To most people, myself included, "base" means the the entry-level (cheapest) version of any given model.
No, I wouldn't compare a base Acura TL to a base Subaru Legacy. They're in different market segments, and really don't compete for customers. I would compare, however, a base Acura TL to a base BMW 3-series.
Bob
There are instances where Honda has offered ABS on LX models, like my 2000 Accord LX-V6, but the Accord sells in very high numbers and probably is worth the broader feature packages. Maybe if the CR-V gets up to 400,000 annually it will get similar treatment.
In my current situation, I have found a salesman that seems to want my business and is giving me a good deal. I will be loyal in the sense that I will go back to him and give him the first shot at my business next time. If he gives me a reasonable deal I will probably give him my business. Honestly, I would probably go elsewhere if I felt like I could do substantially better, but based on the first experience I doubt that will happen. The local dealership will be the LAST place I will look. I don't blame them for charging market prices, but they did not act like they wanted my business. If they had come anywhere in the ball park I would have preferred to stay local. They wouldn't budge.
I think loyalty is still alive. It doesn't mean that I will go back to the same place if they suddenly change their philosophy. It means that I will give individuals that have earned my trust a second shot at my business. It also means that I will be willing to pay slightly more to deal with someone who I trust not to pull a fast one on me. It is the entire experience, but price is a big part of it.
I know this is getting long, but I have a question. For those of you who say loyalty is not a factor - why are some dealerships willing to offer discounts on automobiles that are in short supply and high demand? What is their incentive? I'm really curious.
Oh, but I always do my homework first before expecting a good deal. When I bought the Odyssey I knew I wouldn't get anything below MSRP. But I knew they were a hot vehicle and jumped at one for MSRP, since I knew they would be marking them up soon.
-Yes, not everyone wants ABS,but this may have to do with actually paying for it. IMO,if a vehicle was offered with or without ABS for the same price,the ovewhelming majority would take it because the majority of experts agree it is superior to non abs. Heck,the same could be said of airbags,not everyone wants them but I for one believe that the safety concerns supercede everything else. There will always be one or two people who swear they will be involved in the 1% of auto accidents where not having them would be beneficial. Anythings possible. I'll go with the 99%. And to the person who thought I was arrogant to assume everyone wants them,does that person also think BMW,Mercedes,Lexus,Subuaru,and Infiniti are arrogant as well by making them standard on all vehicles? Safety items IMO should not be an option.
-If the overall sales and service experience at the dealership should be the main reason for purchasing ,then everyone would be driving a Saturn.
-Anyone who pays the same for a 1 or 2 year old vehicle as they would for a new one should see a Doctor. This goes against all laws of auto economics. EVERY new vehicle depreciates,even Hondas, NO exceptions. BTW,if this is true with Honda's,then upon trade-in, the dealer should also pay you the same price they originally paid the Mfg. for the car when it was new and that is not going to happen.
-I am not saying the dealers are setting an artificial demand,it is the Honda brass who I would have to think get input from their top dealers before deciding on production issues.
-Some dealers,as others have pointed out look at the long term relationship,not just the quick profit. But I do agree that dealership loyalty is nowhere near where it used to be. If I were a dealer,I would charge less than the others to try to earn a customer's business while still making plenty of profit on a CRV,and treat them with respect. A happy customer may return with their friends;a disgruntled one most definitely will not.Plus,when the wheels are turned in the future,I will be better prepared than the other dealers.
Sarcasm aside, is there something to this debate other than the differences in conotation between the terms "base model" and "lowest trim level"? Because to me, "base model" means a stripped car; no abs, no moonroof, no Bose system, no heated seats... This is not the same thing as the "lowest trim level" on a $40K sports sedan. For the purpose of the original discussion, that was the distinction I made. If those words don't work for you, I'm open to suggestions. However, they are most certainly not the same thing.
And if pigs had wheels they'd be bicycles.
Unfortunately ABS is not free, so if you want it, you have to pay for it. Some automakers choose to put in all their models and build it into the price. Others, like Honda with the CR-V, give you the option of not paying for it. Nothing wrong with either scenario - it's up to the consumer to decide whether it is worth it for them.
Which brings up another point regarding price. Ultimately, on any purchase, it is the buyer that sets the price, not the dealer or manufacturer. If you, as the consumer, don't feel the value of the Odyssey warrants its MSRP price tag, it's your prerogative to settle for another car at a lower price. This is the same whether the car is new or used. Somebody IS paying MSRP for a used Odyssey, because they feel it is WORTH IT. Depreciation is not etched in stone - it is an estimate determined by the market, and thus, by the consumer.
I didn't realize the ABS thing would spark up such a debate! Let's just say a lot of customers would prefer it if Honda offered ABS at least as an option on the LX.
Regarding those 25 or 34 options Subaru offers, most of them are accessories like a dog guard, ski rack, bike rack, and stuff like that. If you visit a dealership, you'd be hard pressed to find an L model with more than a couple minor items, if any.
-juice
It's no big deal, it's just words...
Bob
I'm guessing probably not. In that case, it's pretty clear that lower prices alone does not inspire loyalty and people who shop for bargain prices as their primary goal are not going to be particularly loyal.
Rutger - Alright! Something for nothing? Sign me up! But that's not the case. The Subaru that Bob and I have been discussing does indeed have ABS as standard equipment, but it costs just as much as the top level CR-V. Where's the benefit to the consumer?
As for safety items being standard... I suspect that the majority of experts will also tell you that auto emissions are damaging the entire planet. Nevermind 1% of the motorists who happen to be involved in an accident. So every car in every trim level should be an SULEV. And they should offer ABS, the LATCH system, and good tires (because good tires are just as important as ABS or AWD). While we're at it... five point harnesses are a good safety feature as well.
Bob - I agree. The discussion has degenerated to a battle of semantics. That's kinda why I'm getting so ornery.
Bob
Bob
Your point is well taken. Most dealerships hire and fire six salespeople in a month.
Luckilly I don't work at a place like that!
Yes, I do want the Canadian version but must admit it may be more problematic and risky than I am comfortable with.
I am color shopping/comparing. It was nirvana tonight (albeit dark). The super size car carrier had unloaded four and had an additional four on his rig. The only color absent was the Mohave Mist, which I have seen previously (and like).I'm trying to see if I can desensitize myself to the tan interiors as they are unfortunately the only choice in the exterior colors I like.I'll go over tomorrow early in the morning and check them out in the daylight.
The bottom line is......I should know in the next few weeks if I have a job past July. Its a combination of the attack on the WTC, the economy and the not for profit world in New York State.
I've already been approved for the loan at 6.25% for 5 OR 6 years...which I think is pretty good.
At the moment I am listing towards an LX with side air bags and upgraded tires.I learned to drive where snow is measured in FEET not in inches. I've never had ABS and am well trained in "pumping my brakes." I don't want a moon roof.
Most importantly, I would like to thank everyone for their comments in this board. I have learned a lot (like how important the correct tires are). I have no doubt the CR-V is the right vehicle for me. Now if I can just survive this recession....I'll be driving one soon!!!!
I've bought many vehicles from Rule Honda in Stauton, VA and you will not find a better place to buy a Honda or VW. Many of my friends and relatives have purchased there even if is 200 miles away and they say they will go back again! So my point is that Dealer loyalty is not dead and can still be found but you do have to look hard to find them.
Varmit, my brother didn't show up at Xmas for the Subie/CR-V showdown, he said he was sick but we know the real reason!!!!!
ATB
I live near a Honda dealer in west suburban Chicago and witness daily changes in their inventory. What gets me is how they are accessorizing the hell out of these CRV's....In many instances I have seen LX's gain alloy wheels; LX's and EX's with running boards, splash guards, door edge guards, roof racks etc etc....next thing you know the car is marked up to $24,000- $25,000. Of course they know some impatient consumer who wants a CRV NOW will, infact, buy it with all those unnecessary accessories. Between the Odyssey and the new CRV, Honda dealers must be laughing all the way to the bank.
p.s. I think the new CRV's are nice, but I still like my '99 better.
You may say then, well why don't you just wait until prices come down? The problem is my family never buys cars until we need them. Generally, one of our cars has stopped running. We need a new car within a matter of weeks. So then the question is, should we get the car we really want and pay sticker, or take the second choice at $500 over invoice? Well, we hope to have the new car for 8-10 years, we should get the one we really want. And we agree to pay sticker. Still, I don't like it. And now that I know how Honda dealers operate, I'm going to think twice about considering another one in the future.
2. Regarding all the pricing talk, let's not overstate the dealer-buyer relationship. I buy a new car not more than every 3-5 years. All I really want out of a dealer's sales department is a good price, with the least amount of hassle. Some people have talked about "personality and service." Other than being treated with a reasonable amount of respect (and not dismissively), I don't care much about the dealer's personality; I'm not going there to make friends. And what "service" do they provide? I do all the research on the car myself and don't need help with financing or anything. It isn't "good customer service" just because the dealer smiles and tells me in a friendly voice that the CR-V is only going for list price. I still feel I'm being gouged.
If you come away feeling like the buying experience met (or exceeded) your expectations you feel good. You are more likely to go back to that dealership (or salesperson) and give them a shot at your business the next time. That is loyalty and is all the dealership can hope for. It doesn't mean that you will continue to buy from that salesperson if they don't meet your expectations the next time. This is not "feel-good nonsense". It is rational behavior. Of course in these days of internet buying, the relationship is taken out of the equation and it becomes easy to compare prices. For this reason, it is probably true that loyalty is less than it used to be. Nevertheless, speaking only for myself, I will remember the salesman that gave me a good deal when he didn't have to and I will go to him first when I buy my next vehicle.
A good salesperson will go to bat for his customer if necessary. On more than one ocassion I have convinced our service department that an out of warranty repair should be covered for a customer who has bought three cars from me and referred others.
As far as paying sticker...well, why not? why does everything in this world have to be "discounted" in order for a buyer to feel good.
Probably human nature, I guess.
Again, at least in my opinion, the defination of value is long term satisfaction with the product.
Personally, I won't deal with a dirtbag, no matter how low the price.
And...no, zircon, your numbers are way off, at least in our store.
I've been buying vehicles ever since 1965, and never in that time did I ever develop a long-term relationship with any dealer or salesman. It's been my experience that the salesman and dealer want to be your best friend only to make the sale. Once the sale is made, they could care less about you.
Bob
Maybe Isell can elaborate on how to go about it, but one of the best ways to get a salesperson on your side is to make things easier for them. Do your research, explain what you know, and don't waste their time. A little sugar can go a long way.
Atthebeach - Take the battle to him!
If consumers had full right to choose, many would not choose to pay for air bags or even seat belts. We force consumers to pay for some safety features by removing their free will to some extent; it isn't legal to sell a car without turn signals, for example.
Back to ABS. ABS should at least be available to those who want it. Beyond that, I'd have extra respect for any maker demonstrating leadership by trying hard to make ABS or side curtains as affordable as possible with attractive bundling to reduce costs. Just my opinion. :-)