Saturn VUE

dindak

No, ABS is still optional (as far as I know). I was saying that it should be standard on the V6 models. You are right, the CR-V has standard ABS and the VUE should also. I would never buy a vehicle with out. That said, with the new V6, the CR-V seems very weak in the power department now so I guess it should cost a bit more.

vuefor2

Yes, that's the word I was looking for.. torque steer.

I would imagine with a small SUV and 250 hp is not a good mix unless it's well controlled. I remember driving an Escort GT a number of years ago and I almost put it into the ditch. I let the clutch go and the thing just zinged to the left. The 3.0 is lots for the Vue IMO.

dindak

The 4 banger is rated at 143hp which might seem a bit low for even a small SUV to some. I wish Saturn (GM) would make a slightly bigger version of the Ecotec for the VUE and other larger applications. I thought the 4 was decent with the 5-speed though.

uga91

It wasn't too long ago when 143 HP would have seemed like a lot. I remember my first car--a 1985 Pontiac Fiero with the 2.8l V6--had 150 HP and it seemed like a ton! Yes, I know the size difference between the VUE and Fiero is huge, my point was only HP quantity.

saskheat

Heres some numbers for mileage. All are Imperial Gal not US Gal.

25 MPG Combined.
30 MPG on the nose for a short Highway trip under ideal circumstances.
24.8 MPG for my last full tank of gas which was combined driving again.
So far I'm really happy with the mileage and hope it gets better as things loosen up down the road. I'm still pretty early into brake in.
I'm driving a V-6 FWD (With no ABS.....just joking)!! Still smells new.

dindak

Great numbers! That's one thing that always attracted me to the VUE, good fuel economy.

joey2brix

As was stated above, the Honda 3.5 will have equal length half shafts and the automatic is standard. So why are you all talking as if the Vue will flip over when you step on the gas? The Vue is a lot heavier then a Escort. (Plus not being a Ford helps. LOL) You guys are nuts. This engine is God sent and you're complaining? GM should put this engine in the Vue's better looking sister: the Chevy Equinox.

stevedebi

I have seen a lot of speculation about mileage with the red line engine, and I thought I'd present my experiences with the Honda version of the engine. I used to own a 2002 Odyssey with the 3.5L engine.

I got about 17-18 MPG in town (during the winter, using "normal" gas), and 16-18 in the summer (using the Los Angeles "summer gas").
I got about 25 - 27 MPG on the highway (at 70 - 80 MPH). A couple of comments on the Honda implemenation:

1. The engine got 210 HP on regular gas, and 240 on premium. I always used regular.

2. The mileage was due to the really excellent transmission used in the Odyssey. I should think that the new VUE would get similar or somewhat better mileage, simply because it is lighter. HOWEVER, it will depend on the gearing and capability of the Saturn transmission, and the degree to which the new engine/transmission is similar to the Odyssey implementation. Honda designed their 3.5L and their 5 speed to match each other.

3. Honda also has the Grade Logic, which may have impacted road mileage by keeping the engine from "hunting" on the up and down slopes.

Just my 2 cents...

2004vue

I was talking to the sales person at the Saturn retail store and asked if the transmission in the 3.5l Vue was from GM or Honda. The answer I got was that the 3.5l Honda engine will be mated to the 5 speed Honda transmission with Grade Logic.

stevedebi

Interesting, since my understanding is that the VUE 3.5 is a derived engine, not the exact same engine, and I would think that the transmission mounts don't match between the two vehicles. But it makes sense in other ways, in that Saturn won't have to re-engineer a transmission to match the engine. However, good news for VUE owners if true...

BAD NEWS: The Odyssey has had sporatic transmission failures. I never had any trouble, but some people have. I think the reports are over-rated (the forums tend to have people with problem vehicles). Hopefully they will have worked out the kinks by 2004.

SPECULATION: The Odyssey is due for a complete revamp in 2004. Do you suppose they will have a new transmission, and that is why they would give the current one to Saturn?

Gotta say, though, if it works well that is going to be one HOT Saturn. The engine was very peppy on the 4300 pound Odyssey!

dindak

It makes sense to get the Honda auto as it's requires minimal investment on Saturn / GMs part. I would prefer a GM auto, but whatever.

Hopefully mileage will be in the 20/28 range. It should be better than the Pilot.

joey : I don't think anyone is complaining, it's more concern. If you had ever driven a car with bad torque steer, you would understand.

stevedebi

I realize it was larger, but there was NO torque steer in the Odyssey...

stevedebi

The Odyssey is not availible with anything except straight FWD. Does this mean the Red Line will be only FWD? I don't see how they could mate the Honda transmission to the AWD system.

That is, unless your name is Dr Frankenstein...

dindak

I believe the Pilot and MDX are available with AWD. Dr. Frankenstein is not needed.

stevedebi

Right, but they are designed for much larger vehicles...

I don't know, if Saturn isn't careful, they could end up like AMC during the '70s. Chrysler transmission, Ford engine, Dodge starter, etc. Only the body was AMC...

afk_x

I said the ION Redline would have equal length half shafts. The V6 VUE? Dunno

I don't know if there will or won't be massive tourque steer. It is a minor concern. I'll let you guys know once I drive one.

Saturn will be utilizing Hondas 5 speed auto tranny and I do have faith that the premature failure issue Honda has resolved by now.

The AWD system is very simple and from my understanding of how it works has nothing to do with the transmission

Although I have thus far been very clinical I must confess to a great degree of excitement over the 2004 VUE.

dindak

"they are designed for much larger vehicles"

This is true, which is why some people are a little concerned about torque steer. Otherwise, it shouldn't matter so long as the suspension and underpinnings are properly adjusted.

2004vue

I just ordered a 2004 vue 3.5l AWD model code ZLN26. In Canada, the V6 AWD has anti-lock braking standard and the V6 FWD ZLU26 has anti-lock braking with traction control standard. As for torque steer, the 2004 vue has Equal-length driveshafts.

dindak

Excellent news. If ABS is standard then the price hike is 0 since ABS would have added the difference for the 04.

Any word on mileage for the 3.5L VUEs?

When did they say you would get delivery?

stevedebi

"the V6 FWD ZLU26 has anti-lock braking with traction control standard."

My Odyssey had this feature; it works under 18 MPH. If a wheel loses traction, the ABS stops it from spinning. It got me out of snow several times a couple of years ago in Yosemite, CA.

dindak

Ya, I've seen those numbers but I want to see real numbers, not estimates. I sincerely hope the 20/28 is accurate. With amazing power and mileage VUE sales are liable to go through the roof.

stevedebi

Well, up to 50,000 units; I think this is the number of engines that Honda is providing...

dindak

That's only the V6 motor. Keep in mind there is an Ecotec powered version also.

I'll bet GM could get more V6 engines if they needed them though

vuefor2

Carguy ::: Our sales rep told us he sells about 60:40 V6 and 4 cyl models. He said it used to be mostly V6s until the CVT came along.

Dindak ::: We regularly get almost 30 on the highway with the 3.0 but if the 3.5 will get 28, that would be very good. ABS is a must, I agree and I'm glad it will be standard. Can't imagine not getting such a great safety feature, it's the only option on our Vue.

Steve : :: I don't think it;s that hard to adapt a drive train for any vehicle in which it will fit. Sure some reverse engineering needs to be done, but if done right the new 3.5 Vue should be fine. I only hope the torque steer is not an issue with 250 hp under the hood.

stevedebi

Honda designs their parts to match each other and the platform. Having to shoe horn it into a different platform will make it perform differently. It should be interesting...

Also, the Hondas tend to have special requirements. For example, the CRV transmission will only work with Honda transmission fluid. I can't remember if this is true for the Odyssey, since I got all my service through the dealer. If this is the case, I suspect that Honda may sell their transmission fluids to Saturn to be re-branded under the Saturn name, since I can't imagine someone walking into a Saturn dealer and asking for Honda transmission fluid!

In any case, there should be plenty of V6 3.0 and Ecotec engines for those who don't get the Red Line. I doubt that there is an agreement for more engines. Honda sells a lot of them in their high end cars, and wouldn't want to threaten their profitable lines. And in the long run, selling engines to a direct competitor of the CR-V makes no sense. From what I hear, Honda wanted something GM builds in europe (a diesel engine, if memory serves). I don't think this marrage of convenience will last very long. Translation: Get the VUE Red Line while you can!

zapcat

Dindak, you want to straighten this guy out?

dindak

All V6 VUEs are 3.5L powered for 04. No 3.0L at all for the VUE in 04.

3.5L supply goes for 5 years as far as I know, no need to rush out.

Did I miss anything Zap?

stevedebi

Sorry guys, I hadn't heard about the lack of 3.0 V6.

However, the 50,000 is a definite maximum number. It looks like Honda isn't afraid of the competition either.

Hmmm, 50,000 Vues divided among 50 states plus Canada. That's 980 per state, divided by 12 months is about 82 per month. Divide that by the number of dealerships in each state, and you get a somewhat limited supply. This is what I was referring to...

Excerpt from Bloomberg news, last Dec:

"TOKYO -- Honda Motor Co., Japan's No. 2 automaker, will start supplying General Motors Corp. with low-emission engines and automatic transmissions next year, as the U.S. company tries to minimize the cost of making cleaner cars.

Honda and General Motors first agreed on the cooperation in 2000. Honda, the maker of Odyssey minivans and Accord sedans, will supply about 50,000 V-6 engines and transmissions to the U.S. automaker a year, less than the initially planned 90,000, Honda President Hiroyuki Yoshino told a group of reporters.

Honda, which expects record sales in all its product ranges in 2003, may expand its business by selling engines to other automakers, investors said. Honda is set to post its second year of record earnings this business year.

"This is a win-win relationship, which helps Honda increase business and it may be cheaper for GM," said Norihiko Kamada, who helps manage $1.2 billion at Chuo Mitsui Asset Management Co., including auto shares.

Honda will assemble the transmissions and 3-liter to 3.5-liter engines at its Ohio plant, Yoshino said. General Motors will use the components in one of its Saturn models, the U.S. automaker has said.

Honda's engines will help General Motors meet Californian regulations requiring major automakers to sell a certain percentage of vehicles with low-emission engines.

Isuzu Motor Ltd., an affiliate of General Motors, has started providing 1.7-liter diesel engines to Honda for its three- and five-door Civic compact cars sold in Europe. The contract will run until October 2005 and Honda plans to sell 15,000 units a year, the company said. "

http://www.auto.com/industry/iwirc19_20021219.htm

dindak

I think Saturn sold a total of around 60-65000 VUEs last year, I don't think 50,000 V6 engines will stifle that number much, especially since a good percentage of those were 4 cyl models.

Don't worry, you will get one if you want one.

;-)

stevedebi

dindak-
Thanks, I couldn't seem to find the stats for last year.

Time will tell on the availability.

carguy1234

http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp

Sold 48825 through July this year, and 7405 in July alone.

Sales are up quite a bit this year compared to last.

stevedebi

... that Saturn may have problems keeping up with demand. This engine / transmission combination is really good. If it works as well as the Odyssey, it will be a killer combination.

dindak

I suspect a good chunk of the increase is due to the CVT which was not really widely available last year. I see many of those on the road now and I think a lot of people who didn't want a 5-speed or V6 were waiting for them.

stevedebi

Yeah, too bad they can't use it on the larger engine - the transmission is limited in terms of the maximum power it can handle. The ECOTEC puts out just about the maximum.

dindak

The new Murano has a CVT with a 3.5L I believe but of course it costs a lot more also. Not sure where Nissan gets it's CVT tech from.

ahokie

I've been interested in the VUE for some time and recently took my first test ride. Now I'm really looking forward to the 04 model. One of my concerns is the VUE's capability for hauling "stuff". I'm interested in carrying home building materials, the occasional appliance or small piece of furniture, and of course golf clubs. If anyone out there has experience in carrying any of these items in their VUE, I'd be interested in hearing about it. Thanks.

vuefor2

Ahokie ::: I would think towing with the 3.5L Vue will be similar to the Honda Pilot if not exactly the same.

Carguy ::: I see Vues all over the place these days so sales must be good. I remember when we got ours we had one of the first ones in the area and people would come up and ask us about it. Not the case any more.

:-(

Anyone driven a 3.5L Vue yet???

dwabid

Personally we have been very happy with the cargo capacity of the VUE. Golf clubs fit nicely in the back with the seats up and I have on occasion hauled some fairly large loads. I only have anecdotal evidence but I have hauled a 4' Craftsman tool chest (wheels off, right side up). rototillers, 20+ bags of mulch and stone, 7' futon frame (that was dicey but the passenger fold flat seat is great), a chest freezer, sinks, countertops...the list goes on... All fit nicely and I am always amazed at the inside capacity and the AWD6 handles nicely. Although am not sure whether I can haul sheet rock, I do hate dry walling so not a problem here.

I do not have a hitch so I can't speak for the towing capacity/handling. I would recommend opting for the heavy rubber cargo matt (see if you can get it thrown in). It is worth the $65 (US) investment. Who needs those grocery holders anyhow? Its not a grocery getter darn it!!!

stevedebi

Yes, the Murano CVT is capable of handing a larger engine, but the VUE CVT is very limited in capability.

I was speaking of this particular CVT, not the technology.

ottawascott

Well, its been one year this week since I picked up my 4 cyl automatic Vue. Unfortunately I can't give it a resounding thumbs up as my experience has been mixed. Overall I would say that my initial instinct never to buy a brand new vehicle was a wise one, my other instinct about never buying untested technology (cvt) was another that I should have listened to. I have concluded that Saturn has done a masterful job of marketing itself as a quality product when in actual fact my experience and the reading I have done indicates that it lags behind its competitors. As someone that drove Acuras prior to the Vue, I can tell you that I will one day be back in a Honda or Toyota product once I have equity in my Vue. After picking up my vehicle 6 months after "buying" it only to find it shuddered like overfilled washing machine at 100km/h, I had an alignment the following week. No big deal. Then the floor vents stopped working, something you require in Ottawa in Januarly. Then the tranmission started doing wonking things so I got a new one of those at 10k. Then, my gas gauge crapped out on me. Now my water pump needs replacing because it makes a rumbling noise that makes my already noisey engine sound like a school bus. Finally, there is the variety of annoying squeaks, rubs, and groans that come from the Fisher-Price like interior. The Vue has lots of room (Im 6'5 and have room to spare), lots of cargo storage. Other than that, its pretty mundane. I've got my eye on my Dad's Highlander thats coming off lease in 22 months. Twenty two months from now I might actually have some equity in the vehicle. Saturn is quite an ordinary car company with an ordinary car, but they employ a good marketing agency. No one needs to apologize or feel bad for my Vue experience. I experimented with something new and something domestic: live and learn, caveat emptor.

afk_x

They seem to think that if they have a VUE with some problems that everyone does.

dindak

If you didn't like this "mundane" car with a "fisher price interior", why did you buy it?

It's not suppose to be a luxury car like an Acura.

maynardf1

I'm sure you're a lovely guy, but I don't understand what you're doing here. You seem unnaturally fond of VUEs, based on a couple of test drives and lots of reading -- so much so that you give people a hard time when they report problems with the VUE they actually own and drive.
I've had one for a year and a half, and the truth is the thing is mundane. It looks good from some angles and plain from others. It gets you where you're going, but it's hardly an exciting driving experience. The suspension is squishy and there's too much torque steer. The interior is made of low-quality plastic that does squeak and rattle. The backseats are uncomfortable.
There's plenty of room for improvement without expecting the refinement of a luxury vehicle.
Why can't someone who's had problems with the car report them here without being hassled? Surely an owner's comments are at least as valid as those of someone who has an affinity for it but little actual experience.

dindak

Actually it's a shame he had so many problems, I'm not "hassling" him like you claim.

What I don't understand (if you read my post more closely) is his critisizims of the looks and interior. It's not like those are hidden from a person when buying a vehicle.

I like the VUE a lot and may buy one next year if that's ok with you.

ottawascott

Actually, I don't think I am in the minority in my appraisal of the Saturn interior. Howerver, at the time, the price and the interior dimensions were enough for me to overlook that, heck, you get what you pay for. I was willing to live with it (and still am) but got annoyed when the squeaking started on hot and cold days. And, when the Sante Fe has a nicer interior, just maybe there's a problem, eh? As for my luxurious Acura, it was an EL, a tarted up Honda Civic sold only to the frugal Canadian market. Finally, if you read my post again you will hopefully see that I wrote that "the vue has lots of room", so my take on the interior wasnt entiring damning. Dindak, I figured I would get an angry retort from you. I also figured I might be doing someone a favour by sharing my actual experience with this vehicle. Its not a lemon, its not junk; I said it was mundane and mine has had a disproportionate amount of problems. The cult that is Saturn has many followers and after year one I am left wondering why.

ottawascott

Oh..as for the test drives, the conversation went something like this:

Saturn guy: sign here please. Great, now, unfortunately we can't get this vehicle to you until June, and no, we don't have a 4 cyl. VTI for you to try out before you sign the purchase order.

Three months later.

Saturn guy: sorry we can't get this vehicle to you for another three more months.

Three months later.

Saturn guy: congrats, your Vue is here for pick up.

Sure, I could have tested it and handed it back because I thought the dash looked a bit cheap, but after driving a borrowed car for month I figured it wasnt really an option and like I said, I could live it. And, while I probably would have noticed the alignment issue on the test drive had it been at a higher speed, I suspect it wouldnt have saved me from the faulty tranny, water pump and fuel gauge.

dindak

Hey, I feel for you having the issues. I certainly do not doubt what you say. What I take issue with is you buying something and then slamming it for not being something else. Plastics were there when you bought it and it doesn't look any different now vs when you bought it either.

Have you taken the VUE into the dealer? Saturn should help you out with any rattles you may have.

vuefor2

I think I have to agree, criticizing the Vue for cosmetic reasons after you have had it for six months is really picking on the vehicle for no reason. I understand you are displeased with having to bring it in a few times, I think I would not be happy about that either.

I'll ask you this though, have you been served well by your Saturn dealer? Have you asked them to look at the rattle(s) you have? Is the vehicle now running well?

Buying a first year vehicle is a leap of faith. I have seen on the Accord board that there are numerous issues with the new car. We have not had any issues with our V6 Vue and it's unfortunate you have not had the same experience BUT just because you had a bad truck does not mean they are all bad either.

rocketbob

I found the last few messages interesting so I
thought I would Add my two cents. Except for a
sticking gas gauge( which the dealer seems to have
corrected with some magic elixir poured into the
gas tank), I have had no mechanical problems with
my 2003 6cyl FWD with 10,000km.

 No rattles,squeaks,thumps,grinding etc from the
interior or the drive train. My only gripe is
poor in town mileage.

 Perhaps never having owned a luxury car,I am
aesthetically challenged but I have no complaints
about the "cheap plastic interior". The dials and
knobs seem to be accessible and they all work. The
car starts every time. I am satisfied with the ride,steering and front seat comfort. More importantly, my wife loves the vehicle.

 To me, the vehicle represents good value for the
price.

(My only regret is that I couldn't wait for
the 2004, not because of the big new engine but
that I could have got a power seat. Small potatoes!)

dindak

Things I like about the 04 are the improved interior trim, power seat, standard ABS on V6 models, added sound dampening and 250HP under the hood. The optional MP3 player is also going into my order if we get one.

Given the prices are only up about as much as the price of the added ABS, you are basically getting a much better vehicle for the about the same price. My guess is, sales will definitely be on the move up this coming year.