Forester - Headgasket Repair & Engine Rebuild
Hi,
I'm hoping I might be able to get some feedback here. My lovely little 99 Forester was running fine up until about 6 weeks ago. Now it has always burned oil and my dealership gave the the run around saying it was "normal". Fine, so I've driven around with quarts of oil in my car for the last 8 years, and I dump a quart in every 500 miles. Every time I bring it into for oil changes them I've told them it burns oil.
So 6 weeks ago, I start the car and no heat. The temp gauge shoots up to H and then the heat kicks on and the temp gauge goes immediately back down to N. I call the dealership - they say the thermostat is sticking and I'm find to drive it - I get an appt for 2 weeks later.
2 weeks later, car is in the shop and I'm told because I've been driving the car and its been overheating the headgasket is cracked. So I pay the $1,700 to repair it and replace the timing belt and temp gauge.
I pick up the car and it is running WORSE than it was when I brought it in with the cracked headgasket and sticking temperature gauge. I call the dealership from the traffic signal up the road. They schedule another appt for a week later.
Week later I bring the car in and the oil light blinks on as I'm driving car into their driveway. Get a call the next day saying I need a new shortblock and it will be $3,000.
At this point I'm furious - have another mechanic look at car and they tell me 2 cylinders have problems.
I meet with dealership and tell them 1) they should have checked the engine/cylinders when they replaced the headgasket and 2) I'm not repaying them to do the headgaskets twice basically.
So they tell me they are crediting me for the headgasket repair job. And get this - the price is $3,000. It actually is $5,000, but they are crediting the headgasket repair job to that.
I'm just disguisted and furious at this point. Car has 140,000 miles, and I'm really anal about changing the oil every 3,000 miles - despite the fact since 12,000 miles the car has been having 6 new quarts of oil dumped into it between changes.
They are telling me "its my fault" the cylinders are bad because I allowed the engine to run repeatedly overheated.
Feedback needed please on the cost range for replacing a refurbished short block. Maybe an estimate of labor hours.
Also - your thoughts on my saga?
Thanks
I'm hoping I might be able to get some feedback here. My lovely little 99 Forester was running fine up until about 6 weeks ago. Now it has always burned oil and my dealership gave the the run around saying it was "normal". Fine, so I've driven around with quarts of oil in my car for the last 8 years, and I dump a quart in every 500 miles. Every time I bring it into for oil changes them I've told them it burns oil.
So 6 weeks ago, I start the car and no heat. The temp gauge shoots up to H and then the heat kicks on and the temp gauge goes immediately back down to N. I call the dealership - they say the thermostat is sticking and I'm find to drive it - I get an appt for 2 weeks later.
2 weeks later, car is in the shop and I'm told because I've been driving the car and its been overheating the headgasket is cracked. So I pay the $1,700 to repair it and replace the timing belt and temp gauge.
I pick up the car and it is running WORSE than it was when I brought it in with the cracked headgasket and sticking temperature gauge. I call the dealership from the traffic signal up the road. They schedule another appt for a week later.
Week later I bring the car in and the oil light blinks on as I'm driving car into their driveway. Get a call the next day saying I need a new shortblock and it will be $3,000.
At this point I'm furious - have another mechanic look at car and they tell me 2 cylinders have problems.
I meet with dealership and tell them 1) they should have checked the engine/cylinders when they replaced the headgasket and 2) I'm not repaying them to do the headgaskets twice basically.
So they tell me they are crediting me for the headgasket repair job. And get this - the price is $3,000. It actually is $5,000, but they are crediting the headgasket repair job to that.
I'm just disguisted and furious at this point. Car has 140,000 miles, and I'm really anal about changing the oil every 3,000 miles - despite the fact since 12,000 miles the car has been having 6 new quarts of oil dumped into it between changes.
They are telling me "its my fault" the cylinders are bad because I allowed the engine to run repeatedly overheated.
Feedback needed please on the cost range for replacing a refurbished short block. Maybe an estimate of labor hours.
Also - your thoughts on my saga?
Thanks
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Comments
However, you do have an alloy block, and significant overheating will absolutely warp the heads. The thing to do would have been to shut off the engine the second the temp hit the red area.
The other thing is the mileage - 140k is a lot of miles. Subaru did extend the powertrain warranty for some models (00-02 IIRC) but not yours, but even those were only covered for 100k miles and only if you used a stop leak that they added to the radiator.
The dealer should have noticed the warped heads when they first changed the gaskets, but FWIW they are paying you back for their mistake.
I would not go the refurbished short block route, as those will likely be warped as well.
Sorry but I don't think it's fair to expect any more from them given the very high mileage and the warping caused by the overheating.
You can call 800-SUBARU3 and speak to SoA customer service, ask them for a little help. It's still a very stiff bill you'd have to pay to fix it. See if they can pay for half of it, or offer any help.
Be very nice. I used to work at a Help Desk and trust me, it was the nice, friendly people that got the best service.
I'll be really impressed if they help, but it's worth a shot. Best of luck.
-juice
the heads on these are attached with 4 bolts. so the pressure on the head gasket is uneven. then, when the head gasket blows, a bunch of bad stuff can happen. sometimes, the motor can overheat, like in your case, which means new motor. what happened to me was that the gasket leaked antifreeze into the #1 cylender, constantly washing down the cylender walls, reducing lubrication, destroying the piston ring. Then you need a new motor.
I bought and shipped a crate motor from: www.ccrengines.com. Basically a brand new motor, and it comes with a 36,000 mile warrantee.
as much as I now hate subaru, the ccr engine folks are great.
the ridiculous part is that dealers wont take more than 1500 for a trade in, because they know about the head gasket issues, so, as bizzare as it seems, it makes economical sense to put in a new motor in a lot of cases.
a few things to watch out for when replacing your engine:
1. get a new radiator. its worth the few extra bucks.
2. if its a standard, replace the clutch. you've already got everything apart, so all you have to pay for is the part which is cheap.
3. make sure your mechanic and ccr engines are ok dealing with each other - this is important if you have a warrantee issue.
4. have your mechanic double check which cam sprokets you need on the new motor - there are two different types.
5. if ou burned a bunch of oil for a while, you might need new catalytic converters because the old ones mght be fouled with burned oil.
sorry. have fun. it sucks.
The heads should be attached with 6 bolts, as can be clearly seen in this photo:
Perhaps your mechanic broke off (from over-torqueing) or simply overlooked two of those studs, if so he's completely incompetent and is to blame for the problem, not Subaru.
Where'd you hear that? That's not true at all.
Here is the actual text from Subaru:
Service Program WWP-99
Dear Subaru Owner:
This email is sent to you in the interest of continued customer satisfaction. Subaru of America recently announced a campaign on certain model year vehicles starting in 1999 through 2002. Official Owner Notification Letters will be mailed to all affected customers starting in late February through May of 2004. The timing of the mailings is based on the vehicle model year, starting with oldest affected model year in February through the newest affected model years in May. The following text is similar to that contained in the Official Owner Notification Letter that will be sent to you during the mailing phase affecting your vehicle. Therefore, this email is most likely arriving before most owners will receive their official Owner Notification Letter in the mail. Please do not schedule your vehicle for an appointment for this campaign until after you have received your Official Owner Notification Letter, unless you are experiencing vehicle problems. You can contact your local Subaru dealer for any questions related to this or e-mail us at Subaru.com, contact us.
All vehicles? Where? Source?
My '98 Forester was not affected.
Our late-build 2002 Legacy was not affected.
My sister's 03 Forester was not affected.
My brother's 04 Legacy sedan was not affected.
All vehicles? :confuse:
C'mon folks, these forums are only useful when the information shared here is accurate. Spreading misinformation like this is harmful to everyone, both Subaru and the customer.
I'm correcting you because I don't want Edmunds members to run off looking for a TSB for their car that simply does not exist.
Please, folks, check your sources, quote them, offer references when they're available.
That will make the advice here a lot more useful.
Thanks all.
"Always add genuine Subaru cooling system conditioner whenever the coolant is replaced. Change the engine coolant and add genuine Subaru cooling system conditioner using the following procedures according to the maintenance schedule in the “Warranty and Maintenance Booklet”."
Apparently, they do not want to take any chances...
That hit 99-02 models hard, sure.
I haven't seen reports of head gaskets failures for 03 and later models. Nor did any of the Subarus in my family get a notice that it was to be added.
Actually, the head gasket problems hit '96 through '02 models hard. It was only addressed by Subaru in the phase II engines, for some reason.
Not that this is indicative of widespread problems, but I heard from a fella in California about his gasket saga (1998 Outback, green), which lasted about 2 years and is just now coming to a close. He ended up having the gaskets (and a bunch of other work) replaced to the tune of $2200. His wife wanted him to dump the car, but he was stubborn and went ahead with the fix. Having owned it since new, he is convinced it has a lot of life left and the $2200 is well spent. I cannot recall the mileage - I think it was in the 80K range.
Funny enough, I get many many emails from people who do Google searches and come up with my page covering gasket replacement on my '96 back in Sept '05. So many that I finally set up a folder on my email program called "Subaru Correspondence."
I'll check in my sister's Forester Owner's Manual next time I see her, or my brother's 04 Legacy. I seriously doubt it, though.
What section was it under?
I don't see how Subaru could deny a warranty claim unless owners were officially notified (or unless it's in the manual, like for the 07s).
I also wonder if it's in the Tribeca's manual, as the H6 wasn't ever really affected by the issue.
I guess what set me off was the "all vehicles" comment, I still doubt that's true.
As for the coolant additive, it was in the Maintenance section (section 11 in my manual) under coolant replacement.
Out of curiosity, is there not a law that manufacturers not require items specifically from the manufacturer unless those items are provided free of charge? If this is the case, this Subaru coolant additive must be a commercially available item. Is that so?
I do know that you can buy the OEM coolant conditioner from your local Subaru dealer, or from any dealer which does online/phone parts orders.
MythBusters had a cool episode about ground pepper doing essentially the same thing, i.e. they put pepper in a radiator and tested to see if it would clog up the leak.
Guess what? It worked!
Myth confirmed. Ground pepper has the same effect as Stop Leak.
I missed that one! Got any details?
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Maybe it is another of those myths, though! I love finely ground pepper. It might not be a good idea to make coolant both sweet and spicy..... :surprise:
As for MythBusters, yeah, they used an egg, too. I only caught part of the episode, though. Cool show. :shades:
-mike
In other words, Subaru can come up with a formula, but if they patent it and they're the only ones who make it, they cannnot require that you use that specific fluid unless they provide it to customers for free.
Example: they can require SH grade oil, but not a specific brand.
Another example: they can require DOT3 brake fluid, but not their own.
intake 0.10 - 0.25 .. exhaust 0.15 - 0.30. The shop that did the engine work set the upper value on initial replacement to allow for break-in - 1000m later they re-adjusted the valves to tighter (lower clearance) and now am having power issues, i.e. hesititation on acceleration and surging of power in certain rpm ranges. Anyone have any experience in setting valve clearance. I am wondering also if I may need to reset the ecu?? thanks .. Larry
These were replacement valves so adjustment would be necessary on initial install I would think??
http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5316
http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4015&d=1120308728
It reads that anytime coolant is changed, the Subaru stop leak must be added to the fresh fill and is clearly directed to 'All Models' on the header.
-mike
-mike
Head gasket materials were revised several times, and again, the frequency of complaints here on Edmunds is way down.
I didn't see a major pattern with 02 sensors before, so I cannot comment.
If you check Consumer Reports, you will see higher problem rates on engine (headgasket) and drivetrain (wheelbearings) on certain years in the ranges I describe, so yes, they seem to have improved measurably.
Thank-you very much for the quick reply.
Now it's time for me to change the air filter for my Forester '99 built in Jan'99. I am not sure which brand of the replacement air filter I should buy. I searched on http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/shop_parts/air_filter/subaru/forester.html
and found there are a few brands for Forester'99 such as K&N, Denso, NPN and unbranded OEM. The prices vary from $60 to $9.
Which brands do you guys recommend? I'm from PA.
Thank you.
No major problems before this. Car runs tight, no weird shifts, clangs, wobbles, noises. Body in good shape. Been rearended 2x at low speed, but frame OK. Front windshield cracked 2x and replaced; power steering pump replaced. Preventative replacement of water pump and timing belt at 60K big service.
Head gasket blew 75 miles from home. Stopped as soon as temp rose and found ugly oily bubbly in coolant overflow. Local shop flushed radiator, new thermostat, etc. did not fix overheating. Pressure test showed head gasket problem. Towed car back home to my mechanic as I am AAA Plus member (100 miles free).
My trusted mechanic says rebuild your engine, oil and coolant mixed in engine so head gasket repair won't be enough. Rebuilding my engine costs $3100, includes 3 yr unlimited mileage guarantee. Labor $1400. Includes new water pump, new seals/gaskets, new oil pump, new timing belt, new rings, new cam bearings, regrind valves, recycle bloc and cylinder heads.
Tradein value seems low $3600, used car prices around $4500-5000. I bought Subaru expecting 200K so upset at this major engine flaw. Prefer not to buy new car, but am liking Honda Element.
Opinions/experiences on rebuilding your engines would be greatly appreciated!"> :confuse:
If the body is good, I would do the repair, especially with the waranty - you also seem to be getting more work done than I had to do, so I can't comment on the price. It may be a closer call with your costs and the value of the car. There are others in this forum that are better on the mechanical and cost issues!
98_incuse
It does seem a shame to give up on an otherwise good vehicle and unfortunate that the headgasket failed in the worse possible way. I had a Nissan that developed a head gasket leak but the leak was external so was cheaper to repair.
Unfortunately, headgasket failures is the biggest issue with your model year. By nay chance did you get the coolant conditioner added?
FYI, I believe that Juice sold his 98 Forester this past summer for $5k.
-Frank
The coolant conditioner was for the 99 engine which was a SOHC vs my engine, a DOHC. I never got any notification from Subaru about it.
The sale prices for a running car are $4-5K. My car is not what I would call "running", so I guess it's value is $0. It goes for 5 - 10 miles before overheating. Some might try to trade it in without mentioning the head gasket but I just can't do that. I'm mad at Subaru for ignoring this, so my next car will not be a Subaru -- probably a Honda.
I'm not sure if the oil was drained but the first mechanic I had the car at did a pressure test after trying the radiator flush/new thermostat route. I had checked the oil before leaving on my trip and the oil on the dipstick was brown not black. I didn't realize what I was looking at but my trusted mechanic says that indicated that oil and coolant had mixed in the engine and compromised the bearings. He'll have a closer look before the rebuild starts.
I thought a lot about getting a new car (Honda Element springs to mind and I got quotes from CarsDirect and others) but I decided to make that $5K bet that I could keep the Sub running at least 3 more years as everything else on the car seems in good running condition.
Personally, I hate throwing away stuff that still has use in it. Would love a new car but that would cost $23-25K and I don't want to buy on payments or lease. This was not an easy decision to make and it still depends on what my mechanic finds when he pulls the engine. I'll know soon!
Thanks for your input!
-mike
I ended up getting my blown engine rebuilt. Not an engine swap but my original engine rebuilt, with new rings, new water pump, new timing belt etc. I really wanted a Honda Element, but this was $5K vs $25K.
I am the original owner. The body is still good and the car mechanically well-maintained, so I felt it was the most practical solution.
My mechanic used a shop and person he absolutely trusted, and he is hard man to please. It took a 5 weeks because of end-of-year supply problems, but I got it back in late January and it runs really well. I also replaced the cassette player with a CD player and had the car detailed inside and out, so it would feel like new. My mechanic told me to let it warm up for a few minutes before taking off so the aluminum parts and steel parts were near the same temp.
So far, so good. Everything runs smoothly and there are no new noises,weird engine shifts, or temperature issues. I'm taking it in soon for a 1,000 mile oil change as the engine is "new" still. I do smell a slight burning odor at the end of the day when I garage it, but it is slight.
This may not be the best solution for everybody, but for me, who hates throwing away good things, it was. I figured it was an unacknowledged (by Subaru) engine design flaw. A rebuilt could make the engine go another 50-100K (I hope) which for me, means another 5-10 years as I don't drive more than 10K/yr.
I also have a long-term relationship with a trusted mechanic who has maintained this car from Day 1. He did not push me to rebuild the engine because he knew it was a lot of money and a big decision, but I know he also likes to keep cars on the street for as long as possible. Most of the cost was for the rebuild itself. There is a 3 year warranty on the engine, parts and labor.
I loved my Subaru before this, and hope to regain that love and trust after a few more miles!
When I purchased my first Subaru, I had several problems that made me want to tear out my hair. I flatly declared that I was going to sell that car and never buy another Subaru. I, like you, decided that it was cheaper to keep the car I had than to buy something else. I am quite glad I did. Even though that car took more than a little of my blood and tears over the years, it turned out to be a fantastic machine. All told, my ownership experience with it was quite rewarding.
Since when this was discovered, I only had less than 400 miles to go before this warranty was going to run, so I immediately took the Forester to a local Subaru dealer. However, later, the dealership reported that it was oil that was leaking, not coolant, and so this extended warranty for the head gasket did not apply. I naturally contested it (my mechanic said it was coolant), and in the end, Subaru USA agreed to pay half the cost of the head gasket repair. I did not want to agree to this, but I just could not risk having the warranty run out during the dispute process and needing to pay for the whole thing in case they turned out to be right about the coolant leak. If I had had several thousand miles left, I would have pushed the issue back to Subaru and insisted on a second opinion to decide whether it was oil or coolant leaking.
I am now wondering whether it is some kind of a standard response by Subaru to pay half for the repair of the recalled head gasket claiming an oil leak versus coolant's in the hope that an owner would just accept it as I did. Has anyone had this kind of experience?
Just the fact Subaru USA agreed to pay half means you were in the right and they were trying to get you to settle. Also very, very unethical.
I have no idea what recourse you have -- perhaps registering a consumer complaint with your state Attorney General or suing the dealer and/or Subaru USA in Small Claims court for the other half. Depends on how upset you are. And don't buy another Subaru if you can't get resolution from them.
Big companies count on you folding. I've had problems with Verizon Wireless and CIGNA Healthcare and had to spend many hours writing letters and talking to customer service reps (who should be called customer DIS-service reps). They simply ignore you unless you persist, persist, persist. It's not the money, it's the principle.
When I first got the bad news about my car, I found a site dedicated to the Subaru head gasket leak with many disappointed and angry owners. Maybe there is a suggestion on there that will help you figure out a course of action. Leaves a bad taste, doesn't it?
That's what I heard, anyway.
I had the head gasket work done, wound up costing me around $600.
How would I check for him to see about the heaqd gasket recall?
Thanks
If you have an acct on My.Subaru.com it may also have it. I know it did for my old 98 Forester, but...I was the original owner. Not sure if it will catch data from a previous owner.