Forester - Headgasket Repair & Engine Rebuild

goldengal

Hi CC
Our symptoms for the HG issue was leaking coolant, a sweet smell like maple syrup, and some smoke from the hood after driving -Yikes! We went online to search for great reviews of the best independent Subaru mechanic in the Twin Cities and found a honest mechanic who did the oil/coolant test to confirm (along with other checks).
I think he charged 40.00 to go over the entire car. There is an oil test you can order online and do yourself (read this forum) for less. We will only go to the dealership if SOA is going to help pay or a recall from now on. For example: We had a rattle sound under the hood and the dealership said it was our heat shield or something $$$$. Then we took it to the independent shop and the mechanic found that one of our deer whistles had broken off and was rattling around somewhere in the grill area. Save tons on that visit.
Not all independent mechanics are honest but with a little research (click and clack) -you might find one in your town. Hope this helps

aatherton

"... I'm back from the dealer... They've also suggested that my using pure synthetic oil may have caused the leak which I don't buy. Tech told me Subaru doesn't recommend the use of synthetic oil in the engine until it has at least 75k on it. If this is the case, why does it not say "No synthetic oil" in the owner's manual?.."

Because Subaru says it is perfectly alright to use synthetic oil. The following is taken from an issue of EndWrench (http://endwrench.com/), a Subaru publication for professional repair technicians in Subaru dealers:

"The Use of Synthetic Engine Oil.
Subaru of America, Inc. allows the use of synthetic oil that meets the same requirements for conventional engine oil. When using synthetic oil, you must use oil of the same classification, viscosity and grade specified for the vehicle, and you must follow the oil and filter changing intervals shown in the specified mainte- nance schedule."
http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/NotSoBasic_08.08ew.pdf

You say your Owners Manual does not say "No Synthetic Oil"? On the contrary, my Owners Manual goes so far as to specifically allow it. Page 11-11 says:

"Synthetic oil.
You can use synthetic engine oil that
meets the same requirements given for
conventional engine oil. When using
synthetic oil, you must use oil of the same
classification, viscosity and grade shown
in this Owner’s Manual, and must follow
the oil and filter changing intervals shown
in the maintenance schedule."

erikwi

No, I said the dealer told me that Subaru doesn't recommend the use of synthetic oil even though the owner's manual clearly states it is acceptable provided it meets the same standards as regular oil. That was when I had it over there to have the HG replaced. The service manager said "That synthetic oil you use is probably why you have a head gasket leak at 43k miles."

aatherton

No, Subaru says it does not matter what type of oil you use as long as it meets specs and is changed at the proper interval.
And head gaskets have no physical connection to oil like bearings and seals, so it matters even less the type of oil used.

erikwi

You're missing the quote from the service manager. He's the one that told me face to face synthetic wasn't recommended. I quoted the owners' manual to him when he made the comment about my use of synthetic oil. I know oil has nothing to do with a head gasket leak. I'm not blaming the oil here I'm blaming a flaw in either the head gasket itself or their engine assembly process.

aatherton

"You're missing the quote from the service manager. He's the one that told me face to face synthetic wasn't recommended... I'm blaming a flaw in either the head gasket itself or their engine assembly process."

I saw that quote, but I don't think his opinion means anything.

I think the flaw is in the "open-deck" engine design, not the engine assembly or gasket.
http://www.grindstonemotorsports.com/tech/blockdesign.jpg
The cylinder tops float in the block, completely surrounded by space, with no steadying bridges to the outer block. This is hard for a gasket to seal forever.
The types of decks are explained here:
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f88/2006-head-gaskets-problem-64464/inde- - - x2.html#post716946

In the new H-4 diesel engine, Subaru has gone to the semi-closed deck design:
"... the BOXER DIESEL adopts a semi-closed cylinder block deck to improve the rigidity around the head gaskets..."
http://www.boxerdiesel.com/engineering/en/index.html

erikwi

Aaahhh, now I see what you're saying. I saw the block design pics on the other forum so I'm familiar with them. What year did they switch to the full open deck block? I'm wondering how many other 2006's are going to start having problems. If what you're saying is the cause, then there should be lots of cars with head gasket leaks showing up in the near future. Wonder what SOA will do to solve the problem?

BTW, do you know whether or not they're bringing the diesel to the US?

aatherton

I think the 2.5 engine has always been open deck. I think the head gasket failures changed from generalized to rare after 2003. I think that happened because the coolant formula was changed, a stop-leak additive was added at the factory, and is required to be added whenever the coolant was replaced. Head gasket leaks nowadays may be due to things like use of wrong coolant, not adding the additive, poor quality replacement gaskets, and not pulling the head off onto a workbench and thoroughly cleaning both the surfaces when a head gasket is replaced.

There are no published plans to bring the Subaru Diesel here, though that is probably the eventual intent. I think they are waiting on certain issues like further testing in other markets and reformulation of US diesel to avoid a urea additive injection pump.

erikwi

Mine was actually leaking oil and a tiny amount of coolant. The stop leak they added at the 30k ended my having to continually add coolant to the tank every couple of months but didn't stop the HG leak since it was mainly oil. I've seen that oil additive that claims to stop oil leaks but am a little leary of it. Don't want any passages plugged up and then get oil starvation to a main bearing or rod bearing, you know.

Rats on the diesel! It would've caused me to trade now instead of waiting a few years. I like the idea of 48mpg and AWD.

k24hennings

do you know what the terms are to get $1000 from subaru for head gasket problems. i have an 02 forester and the shop wants 2 grand for the repair. thanks...

priggly

I had a head gasket failure in my 1997 Outback 2.5 engine at 139,000 miles and it resulted in the complete death of the engine. It cost me $7,000 to repair it in Canadian dollars and Subaru contributed NOTHING. ZERO. NADA. Left me with a bad taste in my mouth and a belief that Subaru engines are not particularly reliable or well designed.

The internet is literally saturated with tales of head gasket problems for Subaru engines. Head gasket problems are definitely not rare.

ateixeira

Early 02s were covered for 7/100 but you're well past 7 years now.

Call 800-SUBARU3 and be nice, see if they can help out in any way.

daniell

I hear you... I was lucky that Subaru paid half of the cost of my headgasket repair (2002 Forester S, headgasket failure at 72k miles, cost $1800 to fix). Both my brother and my friend had headgasket problems (2001 Outback, and 2001 Legacy, respectively). 3 out of 3 I know is pretty bad in my book. I might buy a Subaru again, but it will definitely be the 6 cyl. not the 4.

ateixeira

Your family had bad luck.

I had a 98 Forester for 9 years, wifey had an 02 Legacy for 7 years. Dad has a 2000 Outback, sis has an 03 Forester, bro has an 04 Legacy.

Remember these are boxers, so that's 10 flawless engines.

I'm not counting our current 09 Forester or my cousin's 99 OB, also flawless.

daniell

I count 6 older engines, including your cousin's, not 10... your 09 is too new and doesn't count. As I am sure you are aware, problem seems to affect mainly the MY1998-2002. That cuts another 2 cars from your list...

Problem was acknowledged by CR, internet forums etc. Yes, all brands have problems (I am not brand loyal), but this is clearly a problem with the Subaru 2.5l motor. If it wasn't a problem, Subaru wouldn't have issued the recall/extended warranty and pay 50% of repairs costs for many people excluded from the recall. So I'd say that your family was lucky.

ateixeira

10 heads, I meant. There's a gasket on each side.

If you count my cousin's that's 12 head gaskets.

I'm not saying the problem didn't exist, far from it. Subaru acknowledged it with a 7/100 warranty, even. Thing is, they covered 'til model year 02, so those 7 years are up even for the later cars.

What I'm just saying is it didn't affect every gasket.

dk11

The head gasket on my 2003 Forester is leaking at only 55,000 miles which is ridiculous. I have the oil changed every 3,000 miles which is above and beyond what is recommended, but I wanted to take extra care of the engine and then this happens. Just found out this is a known defect on Subarus, though only the 1999-2002 models were recalled. Clearly, the problem was not resolved. I am trying to get Subaru to pitch in for the repair as though it's been over 5 years, it is still within the 60,000 mile warranty period. Clearly, if a head gasket goes at only 55,000 miles, there is a defect. I hope Subaru resolves this as if they don't this will be my last Subaru. Just wanted to post this so others are aware of the problem and don't assume that it's only on the 1999-2002 models.

goldengal

Count us as another head gasket failure and repair (mostly out of our pocket) for the 03 Forester @60,000 miles. :mad:

There was a previous post regarding the correlation between head gasket failure and the type of coolant used. Recommending only Subaru brand coolant? Can't find that post but it might help prevent further problems.

jbur1

I hear you. I also have a 2003 Forester and have started losing coolant. I don't understand why SOA does not expand its coverage when the problem still exists on later models. See my recent post with pics at Losing Coolant.

dk11

Thanks for your reply. I am going to request that they do extend the warranty for the 2003 to 100,000 miles / 8 years as they did for the recalled 1999-2002 models since the 2003 still clearly has the same problem. May I ask at what mileage mark yours started to lose coolant?

ateixeira

Call 800-SUBARU3 for help if your dealer doesn't seem helpful to you.

Good luck and please keep us posted.

aatherton

"There was a previous post regarding the correlation between head gasket failure and the type of coolant used. Recommending only Subaru brand coolant? Can't find that post but it might help prevent further problems."

There is no correlation between head gasket leaks and coolant. The proper coolant is used to assure no corrosion in the system. The proper sealant additive is what Subaru believes helps seal head gasket leaks. The actual cause of the gasket leaks is movement of the unsupported tops of the cylinders in the "open deck" cylinder blocks, which the gaskets cannot endure.

Subaru has given the DOHC turbo and diesel engines "semi-open deck" cylinder blocks which brace the cylinder tops and avoids the problem.

The open deck is die cast, where the metal die is reusable. The semi-closed deck has bridges (braces) between the cylinder tops and the block, requiring a single-use sand casting for each block, which is much more expensive.

jbur1

I first noticed a little leakage last winter on the extreme cold days (around 70,000 miles). At that time I didn't attribute it to the head gasket because it went away as soon as the engine warmed up so I thought it was a loose hose clamp somewhere. Then the problem went away during spring, summer, and autumn. Now it has returned this winter (around 81,000 miles). I changed the coolant myself at 30,000 and 60,000 miles. I also added the Subaru conditioner to be on the safe side. I did not use Subaru coolant but I spoke to an engineer at the coolant manufacturer and he said that their coolant met the Subaru recommendation to use a phosphate non-amine formula. In fact he also said that amines were banned years ago because they were deemed to be a carcinogen.

dk11

UPDATE: Subaru has decided to pitch in with the repair cost. My co-payment will be around $300. The dealer of course called me this morning with about a dozen other things they said needed to be done, including changing the transmission fluid which I had just had done last spring, so no thanks on that. I am having them replace the timing belt while they are in the engine ($100) Asked them to change the coolant as well, for which they wanted to charge $140. I then realized they would have to do that as part of the gasket replacement, so questioned them on that charge and they removed it. They also suggested replacing the power steering and alternator drive belts for $50 (OK), changing the cabin air filter for $125 (OK), doing a "small tuneup" (PCV valve, air filter, fuel filter and spark plugs) for $225 (OK, even though seems high), and fuel induction service (additive) for $140 which I passed on as I understand I can buy a bottle and add myself for a heck of a lot less. Can't believe they were going to charge me for the coolant when they had to do that anyway as part of the gasket replacement. Subaru wondered why I didn't get all my service done at the dealer. Subaru - if you're listening - this is why. But I am pleased Subary stepped up to the plate. I love my Forester and hope to get at least another 6 years out of it. Thanks for all the posts. Hope mine were helpful to some one.

xwesx

Great news! Thank you for updating us - it just goes to show that you won't know unless you ask....

ateixeira

I would probably have ordered the same services you did. Good call.

A new timing belt for $100, heck yeah!

aatherton

"... changing the cabin air filter for $125 (OK)..."

You could have done that yourself. The filter is $40 from the dealer, or $10 aftermarket, and it is easy to remove the glove box to change filters.
http://www.logical-source.com/2004-SUBARU-FORESTER-2915.html
http://www.cars101.com/subaru/airfiltration.html

vtdog

If you have a "minor" head gasket leak can it be repaired with the pour in goop from the auto parts store?

yu203964

I am from Canada. I also have a 2003 Forester with less than 100,000 km. The head gaskets started to leak about 2 weeks ago. I also asked Subaru Canada to extend the warranty because of this known problem and the low mileage. The service representative advised me to visit the dealership and showed all my maintenance records. I did this morning. The service manager recorded all my past services in a spreadsheet and sent it to Subaru. They finally agreed to share with me 50/50. The dealership also agreed to give me 15% discount on parts & labour. The final amount before tax is C$590. So I am not getting a good deal as you. But I am glad that they at least did something for me.

aatherton

If you have a "minor" head gasket leak can it be repaired with the pour in goop from the auto parts store?

Probably, but if might plug up the fine passages in the radiator or engine. Subaru requires a specific sealant additive that they know is compatible with their engine.
Subaru calls their additive a "conditioner":
http://homepage.mac.com/smoresi/.Pictures/SOA635071.jpg
But it appears to be repackaged Holts Radweld "sealant":
http://www.holtsauto.com/products/group/repair-and-maintenance/cooling-repair-sy- - stems#holts-radweld

Use one or the other, preferably the Subaru label if you expect to be dealing with Subaru over the problem.

ateixeira

That's a reasonable amount to pay, IMHO. Glad they helped you.

optimystic1

I've been looking hard to find a Subaru Outback or Forester in my area and finally found one today. It's a 99 Forester, manual trans with 177k miles. The woman selling it says she's had it for 3 years with no problems, is only the second owner, but wasn't sure if the gasket's been replaced. She said she has most of the maintenance records from the first owner and all of hers. After reading all the reviews I'm worried as heck about the gasket. I have about a thousand dollars after what I'll pay for it left. Think I should just go ahead and replace the gasket? Would Subaru help pay for it after this long and me being the 3rd owner? It's also got a bearing going out, should i replace it with one from a Legacy? I have a 91 Legacy that I've replaced both front bearings once and the right side 2 times, which I find not too bad compared with the extreme value I've gotten from this little car(had it 3 years, traded a few hours work for it). This is a one time deal for me as I have a low paying job, might not have money for a new car til' next years tax return; any advice would be helpful! Thanks!

ateixeira

Yes on the bearing, that's exactly what to do - replace it with a more durable Legacy bearing.

No on the help from Subaru though. 177k miles and you're the 3rd owner? I don't think there is a manufacturer in the world that would help an owner in that position.

At 177k miles, the condition and care are vital. Does it look well taken care of?

If the original gaskets have not failed yet, I doubt they ever will. Certainly it would have failed by now (perhaps twice).

To be on the safe side, have a mechanic check the compression on each cylinder, look for no more than 10% variance. Inspect the head and valve cover gaskets for oil leaks. Also check the front and rear main seals. Those and the gaskets are all the trouble spots.

If all that checks out OK, buy it. :shades:

optimystic1

Great advice! Thanks, I will have the compression and seals checked. I appreciate your time & thought very, very much. I go to see it tomorrow. Hopefully I can find a reasonably priced mechanic open on Saturday afternoon!

aatherton

"... At 177k miles... If the original gaskets have not failed yet, I doubt they ever will. Certainly it would have failed by now (perhaps twice)..."

So if the original gaskets have not failed once or twice before 177K, they will probably not fail after 177K. The more miles on an original head gasket, the less likely it is to ever fail.

ateixeira

I was thinking the same thing.

Those gaskets belong in Guinness for the highest longevity in a boxer.

xwesx

I do not think I would agree with that. I replaced the gaskets in mine at 192,000. I don't think high mileage means less likelihood of failure, but it certainly does not fall into the "premature failure" category at that point.

Frankly, anyone buying a high mileage car has to accept the fact that maintenance and repair expenses are par for the course. Spending money on those items does not mean the car will not be reliable, though; it just means one must prepare and plan for the regular maintenance and periodic repairs that come along with the lower initial cost of the vehicle. All cars get there at some point.

ateixeira

Heck, even new ones have problems, only they're taken care of by the dealer under warranty.

There's no perfect car.

xwesx

Yeah, but by the time you get above 150,000 miles, most of the flakes (be that the previous owners or the cars) are weeded out through attrition.

Heck, I took our Caravan on a 12,000-mile trip last year and it had about 196,000 miles on it when we left.

byoungbe

I just recently purchased a 99 forester from an auction, it had a lot of miles on it and i knew that something would need to be done on it. It didnt hold a charge and it would not idle. I took it in to a dealership and they mechanic said that the head gasket was blown and quoted me $2600. Needless to say I was shocked. Hoping that he simply high-balled me on the cost to cover anything else that may happen, I let it slide and i let them do the repairs. A week later, they said that they replaced the head gasket and fixed an oil leak, they now said that there was a clog in the radiator that they couldn't fix without the new part. After this repair, my bill comes out to $3300! This is almost double what I paid for the car! Now, this is my first experience dealing with dealership services and I was assuming it would be a little more reliable and honest, but I just can't help but feel like they're taking advantage of me. If anyone could shed some light on this for me, I would be grateful. Thanks.

xwesx

$2,600 is on the far side of the high end for replacing both gaskets (along with all the other stuff like the oil seals, water pump, timing belt, pulleys, etc., that are accessible and/or have to be removed during the gasket replacement). So, if they charged you that, I would expect the service to be absolutely thorough and complete. The radiator, if clogged, could be replaced at the price of the part only, since it has to be removed as part of the gasket repair and should have been tested as part of their initial diagnostics. So, estimating about $200 for the part, that puts you to $2,800. I'm not seeing where they get the $3,300.

I think you're right in questioning their credibility here.

ateixeira

Plus, given the age, it's out of warranty, so why not try a local independent shop? I bet their labor rates are a lot lower.

Still, I sold my '98 Forester for $7 grand about 2 years ago, so a '99 in decent shape should still be worth $5-6 grand or so.

once_for_all

My 2003 Forester XS has been a great car, 148k so far. About 2 years ago (~ 40k ago) it started dripping oil from somewhere, not enough to make it to the ground, but enough to give an obnoxious burning oil smell from dripping on the exhaust.

I finally dropped the belly pan and cleaned everything up...started it up and checked it 30 mins later...and saw that there was a very slow leak coming from the back lower portion of the head gasket, driver's side. Figuring it was a gravity feed return hole from the head back to the oil pan, and not wanting to spend a bunch to pull a great running engine apart, I thought I'd try a patch.

There was no good access to the spot, the only possibility was between the motor mount and exhaust. I thought I'd try the RTV copper gasket maker to seal it. I found a small wooden handle brush in the shop, handle was about 1/2" wide, and used that as a dauber and applicator to put on a 1/4" bead about 3" long. Then I took a piece of aluminum tape, cut out about a 1 1/2" x 4" long piece, ran another 1/4" bead in the center, and used the same wooden handle to press it onto the area and smooth it out, making a tight seal.

I didn't really expect this to work, but it's been clean now for several days and several hundred miles. "Good to go" the next 150k? Dunno, but not wrinkling my nose anymore at intersections.

John

jbur1

My 2003 Forester had the head gaskets replaced about 1 1/2 years ago at 85,000 miles. Subaru had even offered to pay part of the repair cost. So at that time I had the timing belt and water pump replaced as well. I just brought the car in to a different dealer for the recent lower control arm recall and was told that oil was leaking from the head gaskets again and it would cost $2300 to repair. I have put on about 16,000 miles since the first repair. I thought that this repair would last me at least three years minimum. Is the RTV fix you tried still holding? I would seriously consider this as an alternative fix if it is still holding.

harvitt

I brought our Forester in for an oil change last week at the dealer and was told that the head gasket was leaking. We don't use the Subaru that much; it only has 54,000 miles on it!

So it had taken us about 1.5 years to put the 5,000 miles on which made it time to bring it in again. Last time: everything fine

This time they recommended:
head gasket leaking $3200 repair
and:
throttle body service
brake and power steering flush
1 side valve cover gasket
front and rear differential fluids
drive belt
...
all together $5000!

Given that the car only has 54,000 miles on it, i'm pretty darned surprised that it needs this much work. I talked to an independent (ie, not at the dealer) mechanic. He said it is well known that the head gasket problems continued after 2002 but that Subaru refused to stand behind later model years and cover the work. And that it is common that Subaru dealers service departments would use stop leak fluid to deal with the problem until the car was out of warranty, at which time they would tell you that it needs to be replaced at your own cost.
Given that i purchased the car 9.5 years ago, I really doubt that Subaru would give me any significant help to fix this.
---
I'm thinking of trading in the car (for a new Rav4) rather than have all this work done to it. I probably can't, in good conscience, sell the car to an individual for very much since i would disclose this issue. I'm not sure that if i went to trade in at a dealer that the problem would be identified. Your thoughts? How long can one keep using the stop leak fluids rather than getting the thing repaired?

ateixeira

If you only put 5k miles in 18 months, it could go for years before the problem got any worse. I'd try some stop-leak and just check the oil level at every fuel fill-up, which we should all do routinely anyway.

xwesx

In addition to that, everything else mentioned on that list is just normal maintenance. Periodic flushing/changing of fluids is important.

$3,200 for the gaskets?! You should find a mechanic that doesn't smoke so much crack. Swap those first two numbers, and you'll be getting closer to an appropriate price for both gaskets, which would also include timing belt, water pump, and the valve cover gasket mentioned in your list.

If you have all that work done and pay over half the quoted amount, the mechanic took you to the cleaners. :sick:

once_for_all

It is still holding. Since there is no pressure on the oil, it doesn't take much to stop it. The keys however, are to clearly identify where the leak is coming from, get a good solid contact, and a large patch area. Depending on the leak area, this may not always be possible. I thought it might work, as the RTV compound is not easy to remove once applied (from experience with scraping old gaskets).

The idea is not much different than putting a patch on a bicycle inner tube.

John

baher

Hi John,

Although I haven't confirmed the location yet, I seem to be having this exact same problem. Is the patch still holding? If so I'm thinking of doing the same thing.
Let me know your thoughts.

Baher

once_for_all

yes, still holding. The key on this type of fix is that the leak needs to be on a low pressure return passage through the head. Not a chance of working, otherwise. It's worth taking an hour or two to thoroughly clean the area and identify exactly where it is coming from. The RTV is a great sealer, and the heavy foil on top of the RTV creates a long pathway for a leak to get through.

Have 173k on this car now. Did the rear bearings last month. Other than that, have had just the normal maintenance. Clutch isn't as light and feathery as new, but still very solid. This model Forester is well put together.

John