Tires, tires, tires

pf2003

A car is different than a van. A van is a big metal box with wheels and the sound echo's inside a van verses a car which is insulated with the trunk and engine compartment like the LeSabre. I find the Symmetry tires noisy, based on my experience with the Odyssey to date and I drove a Windstar which was substantially quieter inside (at highway speed). I feel the Symmetry tires are a large contributor to cabin noise, plus the fact that Honda uses "very" thin glass in their windows (less sound insulation). I read tire reviews on a website for all tire manufacturers where there are often 100 reviews on a single tire. Other Odyssey owners have the same opinion as I that the Symmetry's are noisy. They have the experience of changing to the Michelin Harmony or X-One and finding significant improvement in the tire noise associated with the Symmetry.

ashutoshsm

I had great performance (wet, dry and some slush) from my Falken ZIEX ZE-512 on my 95 Protege. A number of others have these tires installed on their newer Pros and P5s as well, and like them. There was/is always a discussion about which tires work well on the Protege in the Protege and the Protege Accessories/Modifications pages - read through some user reviews (including mine!)

bretfraz

I read tire reviews on a website for all tire manufacturers where there are often 100 reviews on a single tire

I've been looking for this for almost 4 years and have not found a comprehensive collection of tire reviews. Please post a link.

I hope you're not referring to Tire Rack.com.

bretfraz

Canadian version of Tire Rack. I was sorta hoping for something other than consumer comments, which I don't put too much faith in when it comes to tires.

Thanks for the reminder, though. I hadn't been to 1010tires in a long time. I see they've overhauled their website and forums.

capriracer

Rating tires is a bit of a quagmire.

Because vehicle suspension plays a major role in how the vehicle reacts to tires, you'll get reversals. Things like snow traction and wet traction are highly dependent on the conditions. For example, there are many different kinds of snow ( loose powder, hard pack, slush) and different tires will react differently to each kind.

Wet traction is a function of both the tread pattern and the tread compound and how both interact with the road surface.

Noise is also problematic. Road texture plays an enormous role in how the noise is generated, so a road surface with small textural elements will cause tires with samll elements to be louder than tires with large elements, and vice versa. Since the materials used and road textures vary around the country, you'll get a wide range of opinions, depending on what is being driven on.

I believe that is why you'll see completely opposite opinions.

A good example of this is the difference of opinion about wet traction of "summer" tires vs "all season" tires. All the objective testing I have seen says that as a general rule all season tires are superior to summer tires, however, there are folks who have experienced the opposite. I suspect that one of the differences is that most people are basing their opinions on tires nearing wearout vs brand new tires, where the objective testing is being performed at the same conditions with back to back repeats for verification of the data.

Hope this helps.

bretfraz

I suspect that one of the differences is that most people are basing their opinions on tires nearing wearout vs brand new tires, where the objective testing is being performed at the same conditions with back to back repeats for verification of the data.

This pertains to my primary beef with "reviews" at places like Tire Rack. You have people who have minimal (I'm being generous here) expertise about tires offering their opinions of one over another. Everyone's certainly entitled to their opinion and its nice that TR has a forum to allow people to express themselves. But I'd be very careful of placing any significant weight on those reviews for the very reason CAPRIRACER mentioned. Of course almost any new tire is going to outperform (or seem to outperform) any used tire. The vast majority of people on this planet can hardly recall what they ate for breakfast last Tuesday so how can anyone expect them to remember how their OE tire performed when new? And that's assuming they experienced the tires when they were new in the first place.

I guess the reasons mentioned above are key to why we don't see many objective tire tests. They're hard to do and the applicability of the results cannot be assured.

bottgers

Our MPV also came equipped with the Dunlop SP's and I don't care for them because of their stiff ride. Why anyone would want semi-performance tires on a minivan is beyond me. I can't wait until these tires wear out so I can install a set of quiet, smooth riding, all season, touring tires.

capriracer

What I meant by "objective" was a test where you get numbers as a result. I agree that it seems that some of the magazine articles are merely infomercials.

However, It is possible to set up a test where certain types of tires will yield superior results.

When Consumers Reports first did tire testing, they consulted with a certain tire manufacturer. This manufacturer steered them to testing certain type of tires - probably suggested a popular car that took a particular tire size - even provided the facilities. This consultant failed to tell Consumer Reports that OE tires were different than aftermarket tires and that touring tires were different than all season tires and that H rated tires would be compounded differently that S rated.. The net result was that "certain tires" performed better than others - a tire that had been recently introduced with a big media blitz. Those of us in the industry could tell who the consultant was and thought it was pretty naive of Consumer Reports.

Except they repeated this error 3 times. I finally cancelled my subscription figuring that if this was how they tested other products, the results were unreliable. I now notice they no longer go into detail about how tests are performed. We engineer types gets very nervous when that happens.

But the comment about the OEM tires being horrible on black ice is exactly my point. OE tires, even though they may have the same name, are completely different than aftermarket tires. There are specifications that OE tires have to meet and they are as different as the vehicles they go on. So do all tires with the same name have the same problem? Maybe, maybe not!

And as a side issue, what would people in Arizona who bought a new minivan think about tires that were good on black ice? They'd probably hate some other property about the tire - like noise.

silvercoupe

Has anyone had experience with the 100k warranty tire that Sears sells? Or who makes this tire? I am considering this tire as a replacement for my son's 1991 Honda Accord.

imidazol97

I didn't notice Sears had a 100k tire, but I did note they had an 80K Michelin that should be good. My comment is I had Michelin XH4s for the purpose of longer mileage and round tires that stayed round as they aged... 8 years later I had two tires with 110K on them that still had tread, but I replaced them. They had harder tread rubber but gave great highway mileage. That's what I wanted. They seemed harder riding than other Michelins I'd had (about 7 other sets through 30 years after OEMs wore out...). But they seemed to little harder to roll than the OEM Generals on the LeSabre. Probably cut gas mileage a tad...

I'd expect harder ride and less gripping in the tread rubber compound. But rain traction and snow grip was great due to the tread pattern. I didn't test the cornering grip nor the braking grip to extremes, so the long life characteristics were great for me.

microrepair

capriracer:

I hope you didn't really believe that Consumer Reports has unbiased experts on it's staff for every device/appliance/product that they test.. I too am an engineer and I gave up on them decades ago when they tried to rate 35mm cameras and high fidelity receivers/amplifiers, etc. They should stick to washing machines and refrigerators.

I'm sure the folks living in Northern Arizona care a lot about tires being good on ice/snow. Flagstaff has a good sized ski area and the Grand Canyon gets a fair amount of snow too...! Even Tucson has Mt. Lemmon (recent forest fires) with a ski area! Just one hour's drive from downtown Tucson to the ski slopes!! Maybe Floridians don't care about snow/ice conditions except for every 10 years when parts of the state get some frost that trims the orange harvest..

imidazol97

doesn't impress me with most of its staff and reports anymore. People have taken their anecdotal auto evaluations as gospel for the future cars from a company and that's not possible. Asking readers (not a general sample) and getting surveys returned from part of those readers (people returning surveys are not typical of all people) doesn't give a good evaluation: but it sells magazines.

If people think past history indicates current and future performance of things, I have Enron and Worldcom stock to sell you!!! Stock is one area Consumer Reports hasn't tried yet; maybe they'll give Morningstar a run for their money. They can have readers answer surveys about stocks and use that for future stock purchase recommendations.

I didn't believe Consumer Report's tire evaluations when I saw them either.

pluto5

OK, you can discount CR reports but do you have anything better? I went by their winter tire recommendations and was more than satisfied.

hpulley4

One or two sixteenths is not much tread, especially for rain. I certainly recommend getting 4 new tires.

I've had good luck with Michelin X Ones in rain. They do better than the not so aptly named Michelin Rainforce tires. Both are all-season tires with long tread life, decent ride and noise characteristics.

Directional tread patterns like the Goodyear Aquatread can be very good in rain. Dunlop also has some good directional tread patterns in their SP line. Directional tires make tire rotation more complicated (only front to back is possible) but they evacuate water very well.

You won't see much snow in Seattle but for the rare time you might see it, I'd suggest a good all season tire for you.

oregonboy

Kumho tires have glowing reviews on the Tire Rack site, compared to other makes of the same size and category. AND they are amazingly (suspiciously?) cheap. Could it be that the "reviewers" praise them because they have lower expectations due to the low price, or are they really a screaming deal?

Anyone have experience or opinions?

-james

zueslewis

(size 225/45-17) on my 2003 PT Cruiser for about 4,000 miles now. HUGE difference in ride quality, turn-in, and stability over the OEM Goodyear RSAs.

Best decision I've ever made. I autocrossed the car before and after and the control difference was remarkable.

ajacat1

Hi--new tire time and I'd love some input--there were Michelin T-plus (I think that's Sears' version of the X-one?) on them when we got them...looking for good traction in wet (we're in the PNW), ability handle slushy snow a bit--decent quality re ride/noise--we don't race, so don't need ultra high performance LOL -- but I do like to accelerate as necessary and like to drive the curves...

I've been looking at the Kumho Ecstas, and especially the Falken Ziex ZE-512--liking the prices of both of these--are they going to be disappointing in the winter? (we could get chains if we end up going into the mountains, but there will be rain, rain and more rain where we are). Does anyone have an opinion on the definitive tire we should get so I can end all this compulsive research? We're using 205-65-15.

And a question re H vs. V rating--which one will give you stronger sidewalls? There are *lots* of potholes in our local roads--it's heck on the suspension.

We're also planning to sell the car next year...so we don't want to go over, say $75 per tire (not including installation).

Thanks for any help.

ajacat1

is a 10/32 initial depth o.k.? I can't remember which of those tires had it, but one of them did...or is that too little?

thanks again

bretfraz

Well, the Falken is a high perf all season tire so while its nice it might not be the best choice as far as ride/noise goes. Plus they don't offer it in 205/65-15.

Don't know what Kumho you have in mind but it seems like the Ecsta HP4 would be your best bet.

As for others, if you want good 4 season traction, brands like Goodyear, Kelly, and Cooper seem to rate well. Maybe consider something like the Goodyear Regatta 2 or the Cooper Lifeliner SLE touring tire. If you want something more sporty look at the Dunlop SP Sport A2 or the Continental ContiExtreme Contact.

8/32' to 10/32" is pretty typical of new tire tread depth.

hpulley4

Some snow tires start out with 11 or 12 but 10 is typical.

ajacat1

thanks for the responses--yes, it would be HP4. Thanks also for the other ideas--

And I saw the Falken Ziex's in my size at a couple of places, including artires.com, in V and H. But I'll check out the other ideas too. Any thoughts about the Falkens in slush/snow?

Most reviews I've read (just plain folks' reviews) are ecstatic about the Kumhos--but then you'll come across the odd "wouldn't recommend it to my worst enemy" thing and even the good reviews don't think much of it in snow.. (both are M&S rated, I believe)

Glad to hear about the depth too.

off to do more research...it never ends...

hpulley4

The only good tire in snow is a snow rated tire. M+S rated tires aren't tested for any sort of winter conditions, and don't really need much of anything to qualify, just some empty space in the footprint. Even the best all-seasons are really only good for about one season in snow, IMO -- after that the tread gets worn shallow enough to slide around and the rubber compound gets a bit hard so they aren't very sticky in the cold.

Neither Kumhos or Falkens are known well for their snow performance. They are known as good pavement tires.

If you really need all-year tires and snow performance, the Nokian all-season plus winter tires are probably your best bet. They still aren't as good in snow as a dedicated snow tire but that's what you get for driving on a compromise.

ajacat1

Thanks again! Now that I'm weighing the proportions of time spent in the different conditions, I think that for *real* snow (as in up into the Cascades for a vacation) we'll just get chains. The slushy stuff we'll get isn't a big proportion of the time we'll be driving. RAIN is the biggest issue (Portland Oregon, the RAIN capital of the country ).

So here's a question: of all the brands that bretfraz and you and I have mentioned, which would *you* get for good traction on pavement, good rain driving (the Falkens look better than the Kumhos for that, just to my completely novice reading of the tread--I'm probably wrong), and decent noise/ride? (I'm assuming that those ones that bret mentioned are under $75/tire)

Tire shopping is getting to be like car shopping--I'll probably keep researching even after I've made my decision LOL

stever

the best all-seasons are really only good for about one season in snow

Bingo - I had good luck the first winter with some X-One clones from Costco. The second winter (with about 12,000 miles on the tires), they started getting dicey fast.

Steve, Host

hpulley4

Of all the tires mentioned I think I'd get the Dunlop SP Sports.

pluto5

Re: Kumho
I posted before about their winter tire. I bought a set last winter which turned out to have the heaviest snowfalls of any I can remember for my area. The tire exceeded my expectations in every way including driving on ice. I drove around Subies and SUV 4x4's in the snow, and the performance on dry pavement was equal to my OEM all seasons. I'm trying to get a set from Tirerack now for my new car but no luck yet. I'm sure they will sell out quickly. IMO there's no excuse to drive on all seasons in the winter when you can get a Kumho winter tire for $40-60 each.

ashutoshsm

I had the ZIEX ZE 512s on my Protege on larger wheels (hence lower profiles - 195/50-15) and was amazed by hteir overall performance. People (including I) love these in dry and wet/super wet conditions. One winter - and they handled WAY better than I expected. They spew out snow and slush as well as the Michelin X-H4s I had on before and just set aside with merely 15-20K miles on them because I was sick of their dry handling!

I just sold the wheels and tires (prelude to selling the car) and put the old 175/70-13 Michelins back on - God-awful! I remember now how much I hated them

Of course, YMMV - I drove my protege pretty hard on turns, and barely had to slow down in rain. They never hydroplaned and I *MAYBE* got them to squeal once on a sharp, hard, fast turn. This in around 10K miles.

I did not have them for over one winter, so there's something to think about. But usually, by the time you run through a couple of winters, you've recovered your moneys worth (and more, IMHO!) on Falken/Kumho/Sumitomo tires relative to the doubly priced, poorer dry/wet traction offerings from Dunlop and Michelins. Yet another thing to think about

ajacat1

for all the recommendations...Steve, are you host of everything?

I'll be looking at the Dunlops and the Falkens--my heart kind of is pulled toward the Falkens but I'll be rational I promise...

tidester

Steve, are you host of everything?

Steve is not ubiquitous but he is omnipresent and nearly omniscient! ;-)

tidester, host

stever

You just hang out in the same discussions that I do. That shows you have excellent taste and discernment! I'm omnivorous too.

Steve, Host

zueslewis

ajacat1

Openminded, too, with all my posting mistakes

So, so, so...

I went ahead and ordered the...

Continental Conti Extreme Contacts in V rating (they come in W too). Sounds like they last great and do amazingly well in PNW weather for at least a year, and then we're selling the car . We'll get chains if we go to the Cascades.

The Falkens were close (I saw some conflicting thoughts on the Dunlops), but in the end I guess it must have been the lure of "extreme contact" over the creatively-spelled bird of prey...honestly I don't know what it was but they were both close. Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

But they must be seriously popular because they're backordered 6-8 weeks...

mattginnetty

Hi, I need new tires for my 2000 Odyssey and I need an All Season tire for the New England winters. I looked at Micheline Harmony and they looked good and got great reviews. Does anyone have these on their Odyssey? If so how are they compared to the stock tires?
Thanks
Matt

crazycanuck1

I am interested in buying new tires, 'winter only' type tires. (I live in Canada) I was thinking of the Goodyear Ultra Grip / Ultra Grip Ice, a friend suggested get "Nokian Hakkapeliitta" (comes in "2" and "Q" and "NRW" and MANY other flavours. If you have any insights as to the differences, let me know.
My existing tires are P-185 /65/ R14, on a '93 Hyundai Elantra. They are "Merit" brand and will last and last on dry pavement but despite the M+S rating, aren't too good on snow & ice.
This is my first post here, so sorry....anyway I was told the Goodyear non-Ice are studdable (legal in my province), the ICE are not, and the 'Hakka's' are

pf2003

I put Bridgestone Blizzak Duelers on my Windstar, after running Michelin Alpins for years. The tread design made a major difference in pulling through the snow and grip on hard-packed snow and ice was excellent.

I also have a Ford Focus station wagon with Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice. The corner/handling is better than the Blizzaks (less sidewall flex), they are quite and pull through the snow is excellent, the hard-pack / ice handling is very good, but not quite as good as the Blizzak's. They are cheaper than the Blizzaks and will have a longer life.

Studded tires - I ran studded tires on a Honda Civic, they were noisy and unpleasant and because the studs offer very little contact surface area and rubber in the tires is not as technically advanced as the studless winter tires, I feel they don't offer as good of corner and braking adherence as a good studless winter tire. However it's the rubber compound that counts, so buy the best and remember it won't last forever, because the compounds are soft.

wyarbrough

I am in the market for best possible tires for my 1999 Oddysey. (Original Firestones are shot) I was about to buy the Michelin X-one based on reviews here and other recommendations. However, according to the mfg. web site X-one is discontinued. The HydroEdge looks like a good alternative, but I have not seen any reviews. Anyone with experience with the Hydro Edge? Other recommendations, particularly in the Michelin line?

imidazol97

Check with your dealer to see if they are still available... you might still be able to get them because of warehousing even if Michelin's not building them anymore.
The Harmony was supposed to be using a similar tread rubber.

zueslewis

The Tire Rack still has Michelin X-Ones in the 215/65-16 size - showing normal availability at $118 each.

They also have the Harmony, Symmetry, MX4 and Hydroedge - all less money than the X-One.

sequoiasoon

Check back a couple pages and I had posted a lot on the Nokians. You can go to www.nokiantires.com for details. Do you want studded? Studs are great if you drive on a lot of hard snow or ice. They are noisy otherwise and you lose dry and wet traction. The hak Q works very well but wears quickly due to the sipes and compound. The hak 1 is probably my first choice for snow (studding is an option). The hak 2 is new and only comes studded from factory (to eliminate dealer installation error). The NRW is discontinued replaced with WR, great all weather, rides good, excellent wet and dry but not as good as hak 1 or Q in deep snow, slush and ice. Also a little noisier on cement roads at 65+ (compared to regular all season Michelin). I have the same size on my '93 Corolla and am currently running the WR's, I have the Q's for winter only but they are starting to wear pretty quick as most of drive is dry with wet slush when it snows. This past winter was an exception and I went to work with the Corolla (hak Q's) on President's day when everything on Long Island was at a stand still. Only issue was ground clearance on the Corolla. If you are NOT planning on getting 4 dedicated snow tires and rims (which is the highly recommended way to go, E-tires and Tirerack won't sell only 2 due to the traction difference!) I would get the WR's because they are much better winter than any other all season out there.

zueslewis

you've posted the same post three times, dude.

Read my reply, jump over to www.tirerack.com, buy tires, enjoy Odydssey....

stever

If you refresh your browser without going else first on Town Hall after posting, your message will get reposted. A little feature of our software. The way to avoid it is to click on Recent Messages instead of refreshing your browser.

I had X-Radial Ones on my minivan (the X-One clones that the discount stores can still get). There were good the first 2 years in the snow for an all season tire, but I didn't think a lot of them after that for going to my local ski hill.

They were rated for 80,000 but I swapped them in at ~50,000 miles or so for new shoes. The Harmony's sounded good but the dealers here weren't selling them at a good price, so I went with Toyo's, esp. since I could get them a lot closer to home.

Steve, Host

nextmoon

I took my vehicle into a local GM dealership and had them check the steering because it was feeling very heavy at times. They reported that my steering was fine but my tire pressure was too high causing the heavy steering.

I think this is BS, but want to ask anyone with more knowledge if high tire pressure would cause heavier steering response?

zueslewis

in most cases, wuold cause a lighter feel, not heavier.

I think you were dealing with a recent graduate of the Wal-Mart school of automotive technology.

nextmoon

Thanks for confirming my suspicions..

zueslewis

I'm the local "suspicion confirmation" guy.

stever

While you're painting with that broad brush, do a search on Tireguy in here and note his contributions to the discussion.

And note who he worked for....

Steve, Host

kssod

I have replaced original Symmetry at 35k, Unfortunately due to two flats I had replaced with the same tire. Overall they are unimpressive. I reccommend the Bridgestone Turanza LS-T. These have gotten great reviews at tirerack and my sister put them on her ODY last year after her Symmetry wore out at 35k also. They were great in the upstate NY winter.

wrxsoon1

for my 1997 Civic coupe (185/65-14). I'm looking for an all season tire that leans toward high(er) performance. I live in the Seattle area so it will see lots of rain this winter with occasional trips to mountains for skiing.

Thanks!
-Ian

brickguy

My tires need replacing on my 2000 LS400. It came with Dunlops. What would be the best tire for ride and noise? We live in Missouri so we have to deal with some snow as well.

wain

Some of their 795 sizes are 1/2 inch narrower on the tread than my present Dunop D60 A2 (which of course Dunlop quit making). 94 4 cyl Camry

Other than tirerack.com are there any other reviews of Kumho tires on the net - cant seem to find any.
thanks