Yeah, I was jsut going to say, if your upset with the french you should also be upset with the Russians, the Germans, the Canadians, and 75% of the rest of the world.
The French have been your friends for a long time (they helped you kick out the British and gave you the Statue of Liberty, remember?)
Friends are allowed to have a divergence of opinion, and real friends respect their friend's opinion. And in retrospect, the French were right to point out that your evidence and reasoning for going to war was wrong (jsut ask Powelll, he knew all along). They were in fact trying to do you a favour!
So this is all non-sense, and you're only hurting yourself if you won't buy a tire "just because" of a stupid disagreement.
I never said WHY I wouldn't buy French - I may have had an old girlfriend stolen by a French tourist.
This isn't a political forum, and I'm a very well-informed tire buyer and tuner shop owner, and in addition to not liking Michelins and many French products, I simply don't see the value in Michelin products.
I swap tires way too often to consider paying astromonical prices. If I had a Buick and wanted 80k tires, then Michelin might be a possibility.
I race autocross in 3 cars and drive a very fast, hopped up truck - Michelin has nothing to offer me, especially considering the cost.
Unfortunately, her aggressive driving has also brought multiple tickets and an accident, so her aggressiveness has all but gone away. The bigger reason was that we wanted tires with higher mileage numbers and a more aggressive rain/snow tread. The Goodyear Eagle LS could last maybe 25K miles, but they hydroplaned badly, even after 5K miles, and good snow traction lasted only one season. After two sets of these, we've had enough!
She's had the Michelin Harmonys on for 2 weeks now, and she wishes we found them sooner. Snow traction is excellent, no problem going up snow-covered hills, or driving through unplowed driveways. No noticeable loss in dry traction or performance compared to the LSs. If they only last 40K miles, I'll be happy, but I'm sure they'll have another 20K miles after that!
There are indeed indications that Michelin is not the hotest ticket in each category as they advertise and market themselves to be.
I am a long time user of Michelin SUV tires LTX's 275 70-16 (8 sets and its earlier variants and sizes). At the time of purchase they were probably the best in their class, abeit expensive. I have switched this application to Bridgestone Dueler AT Revo's and will switch the other one when the Michelin's wear out.
Also in the 195-65-15 tire size the Michelin MVX4's are not only at least 1.5-2x the price of others, they seem to last most folks app 34k. They don't even have a mileage warranty, both oem and aftermarket. In this application it seems their subordinate company BFG seems to make not only a cheaper tire but better in almost all performance parameters.
Michelin Pilot Sports are also close to $350-400 more than the Toyo Proxes T1S's that I decided to get.
I've noticed the shorter mileage or lack of stick in Honda discussions where these or a variation are original equipment. Original may not be the same as a service tire.
Friend has one of the versions of MXV4 on Pacifica. They seem to be going to do just fine on mileage for him. He drives normally. No hotrodding but does corner the thing more than I would.
Michelin life: XH4 on 93 LeSabre only gave 110 and 100 K miles. Put two used tires on and traded the thing with 150K on it. (My wife made me trade; it ran fine.)
X-Ones on 98 LeSabre have 80K and have 4-5/32nds. Siping is gone and lost lot of snow traction for pull. Directional control still fine. Put on 2 Harmonys. Will replace two more next fall.
If I hotrodded like my 67 Mustang, I only got 80K out of X tires. ********* I'm sure there are better traction tires or lower-priced higher quality tires. I just buy what has served me well. As for cheaper: I'm too poor to be able to buy cheap stuff. I want quality that stays round and doesn't cause balance problems and that wears well.
Well for sure cheaper is not always better and neither is more expensive always better.
In the case of the oem MXV4's, my lowly oem Goodyear's look to be able to go at least 85,000 miles vs the more normal Michelins of 34,000 miles. Needless to say replacement price is 72 vs 108.
So to me, the key is to: separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.
There are different versions of MXV4s from what I pick up from the Honda discussion. I wonder if some are stickier, softer rubber than others. AND OEM stuff may be a different rubber from the tire sold at the brand store because the manufacturer specified that the tire meet certain specs.
I had oem wide ovals from Firestone long ago that last 12K miles.
If I've gleaned wrong information about that, I belief Drift has been in the business or anyone else can correct me.
depending on the speed rating and treadwear you're looking for.
OEM tires are made to weird specs, mostly for cost reasons, and I never recommend getting an exact copy of the OEM tires - perhaps the same brand and model, if you've liked them, but cross-shop the others by that manufacturer to make sure treadwear, traction, speed rating, and load range are EXACTLY what you want, not what the car manufacturer decided would fit THEIR bill and meet the lowest bid.
My 2005 lexus LS430 with Dunlop 5000M,225/55/R17,drive not smoot,small vibration at steering wheel Any suggestion? Mic.MXV4 will help? or should I change to a thicker tires My car has only 1500 miles with premium package Please help Paul
Since your vehicle is new, take it back to the dealer. It might be a lost wheel weight, but whatever the problem is, they should be able to fix it without cost to you.
Dad's 2003 Beetle GL TDI needs new tires. He has 105,000 miles on the OEM Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus tires. One tire was effectively replaced at 20,000 miles when we put the spare wheel on due to a bent rim (steel rims). Almost all highway driving accounts for the long life. He wants another low rolling resistance tire, as TDI owners have reported a loss of (gasp!) 1-3 MPG with conventional tires. The Beetle TDI specifies 205/55 R16 tires with a weight rating of 91 and speed rating of H. What other low rolling resistance tires should he consider? Thanks.
TDI owner here. The 105k miles figure is nearer the higher end if posters are to be believed. Most peole seem to get 40-50k. As you know there are three oem tires, in addition; Continental and the GY LS-H. I have the GY LS-H. at 49,000 miles it is on projected target to go to 130-140k. Actually I would be more than thrilled to get 100k. Most owners would rank order the oem tires Michelin, Continental, GY's. If cost effective is a criteria then run the cost per mile for rubber. If you are considering a tire that will probably get 1-3 mpg less, work that factor in also. The other thing to consider is NONE of the oem tires (including aftermarket oem replacements) have a mileage warranty. If you contrast that with, say a BFG Traction TA, it is cheaper and has a 60k mileage warranty and performs better. You almost literally have a plethora of choices. It is even more staggering that that if you want to go to higher performance tires or even go down to a T rating!!
My top picks in the H rating 1 BFG Traction TA 2 Toyo TPT 3 Yokohama Avid H4S 4 Bridgestone RE 950.
I should have mentioned--cost effective is not the criteria, he just doesn't want to lose any fuel economy by going with a cheaper or higher performance tire. Nutty, I know, but it's not my car. I know there are tons of alternatives, but how does one tell if a given tire is considered low rolling resistance or not?
dealer, NTB, about my problem, but their answer doesn't make me feel any better...on my new Dodge Ram, the tires, Michelin LTX A/S P245/70R17, have the maximum pressure molded into the tire (like they all do) and the max pressure is 35 psi...the laebl on my truck says that Dodge recommends that the air pressure in the tire should be 35 psi cold...the tire guy just told me that the "P" at the beginning of my tire size does not mean "passenger" but the P means a shorthand that says that it is a 35 psi tire...why would Dodge recommend a tire that their safe minimum recommended pressure coincides with the tire's maximum safe pressure???...I usually keep my tires 1-2 psi OVER the minimum rec pressure, to allow for 1-2 psi leakage and still be safe...someone on these boards a few months ago said something about 2 different standards of psi and the way they measure it, but the tire dealer said that was bunk, 35 psi means 35 psi...does this not seem like the tire is not properly made for this truck, since Dodge certainly knows how they designed their truck and to what psi they recommend on the tires it rides on...yes, these tires were on factory wheels...what gives???
And you were informed wrong, Marsha. (BTW, welcome to my world!!)
Just a bit of clarification.
The "P" only sort of stands for "passenger". It's on a truck, right? That means there is more to than that.
The tire dealer was sort of right when he said that the "P" means 35 psi. That's true for Standard Load tires, but there are Extra Load tires, too, and those are 41 psi.
However, the dealer is totally wrong if he thinks that 35 psi means 35 psi is the absolute maximum pressure.
You see, the folks that make tire standards say that the load curve for P metric standard load tires ends at 35 psi and that's where the maximum load carrying capacity occurs. But the standards folks also say it is permissible (and they even hint at desirable) to use higher inflation pressures for certain circumstances. Those circumstances are generally higher speeds as experienced in Europe, but I think they are applicable any time someone exceeds 80 mph or the ambient temperature exceeds 100F.
Those other "maximum's" are 44 psi and 51 psi for both P metric and Euro metric tires (without the "P".) LT metric tires are a whole different kettle of fish and in some respects have this same problem.
For some reason Michelin seems to be the only tire manufacturer that doesn't put this higher inflation pressure on the sidewall, even though the standards say it is permitted. I can somewhat see that if the load curve ends at 35 psi, then putting 44 psi on the sidewall confuses people into thinking that the load curve ends at 44 psi (I can't tell you how many discussions I've had on that subject!!) On the other hand, there is your question.
BTW, P metric tires have a static burst pressure over 100 psi. Now don't be thinking you can actually use 100 psi (or even 50!), but the point is that 44 psi is certainly well within the "safe" zone.
I just wonder.......How does Michelin write this on the sidewall? If they say "Maximum XXXX pounds at 35 psi", then they aren't saying 35 psi is the maximum inflation pressure.......and all is right with the world!
The problem is there are no defined standards, such as; utoq 400, traction AA, temp A. So direct or indirect comparisons can be made but it would be hard to say they are valid.
However the fact that it is an OEM product with back up marketing hype is (unfortunately) the surest sign.
The reason why is pretty simple. One real world measure is they want to be able to get the highest fuel mileage to publish with a straight face. Or more importantly not to get sued!! ") (:. So it behooves them to put in the LEAST rolling resistant tires as possible!!
So for example on a VW Jetta TDI three "lower resistant" tires come oem. In rank order by poll of actual owners in the real world 1. Michelin MXV4 plus 2 Continental ContiContact Touring CH95 3 Goodyear Eagle LS-H.
I am in the market for new set of tires for my car and have narrowed it down to BF Goodrich precept and Goodyear Allegra tires, both of them are available in Canada through Canadian Tire.
I am confused on which one to buy, I am having tough time to figure out which one is more quieter and has better traction than the other one. I asked the service advisor at Canadian tire and he is saying Goodyear (reason they sell more of those and the tread pattern). I also did a quick search at Edmunds and found GoodYear Allegra tire referred in discussion forums a lot more than BF Goodrich Precept.
I would like to know if anybody has Goodyear Allegra or BF Goodrich Precept tires on there car and what there experience has been like?
Also from anybody else who has heard any good or bad things about these two tires?
I desperately need help on finding these wheels. They are called "Supersonic" and they are made in Japan (I think). I am having a very hard time finding anyone who sells them. I was told that they were introduced to the US about 7 months ago. The only company that I can find them through is QRS Auto Group, Inc. (www.wheeltechnology.com/product-supersonic.php). The middle man is selling them on eBay. I tried to purchase them through him but he said that the company was not responding. The company came to him at last year's SEMA show in Las Vegas. Like I said before, I am in desperate need of these wheels (20") for my Avalanche (Z71). Any help would be greatly appreciated. I can be contacted at “Mike@MikeandKaren.cc”.
Capriracer: I was critized in another forum when I repeated your statement in this forum about 100 psi for burst pressure minimum.
I had responded to a post that 44 psi was a burst pressure and that tires should not be inflated more than 1 or 2 pounds above the maker recommended pressure. The same post said the tires had to have a rounded sidewall or
"otherwise the sidewalls will not flex enough to provide proper handling, ride control, etc."
But I've always felt handling was better with 3 or 5 pounds more in the tires, especially fronts on FWD. Is that right or is control better with lower pressures? I've had a variety of cars with FWD, Century, LeSabre. But I even felt that true with RWD Mustang and Torino 73.
What is your opinion on this gauge.? Im thinking of getting a digital gauge and came across the Michelin gauge. How does it compare to the accutire gauge?
I saw that post (actually the series of posts), and....ah....well, may be things could have been worded better. (me included!)
There isn't a "Minimum Burst Pressure" - like a standard or a regulation. It turns out that if you design a tire correctly, you wind up with static burst pressures well over 100 psi. So it's just a consequence, not an intended result.
What is molded on the sidewall is a usage upper end. It is also true that more inflation pressure does increase the risk of impact type failures - a "burst", if you will. But characterizing what is molded on the sidewall as some sort of maximum for "burst" purposes is as wrong as thinking that what people do on the race track has a bearing on what people should do on the street. (Racing is such a peculiar activity from a vehicle operational point of view.)
Yes, more inflation pressure does improve steering response (how quick the tire, and therefore the vehicle, reacts to steering input) it also reduces the amount of heat generation and how much a tire "rolls over" on cornering - which is why folks use 40 to 50 psi in FWD cars when racing on "street" tires.
I also recommend 3 to 5 psi above the placard inflation - but that's a general rule and not always appropriate - and I do that based on my understand of what methodology is used to set the placard pressures. Part of my recommendation is based on my preference for a "crisper" steering response, but also on the idea that sacrificing a bit of ride softness and getting many improvements (hydroplaning resistance, durability, treadwear,etc) is just a good trade-off.
disregard what the guy at Pep Boys told you, the tire isn't going to explode at 50 psi based on a 44 psi max load pressure - it'll ride stiff and you'll get center tread wear, but no explosions.
I am grateful for your explanation, but can you see my dilemma???...a tire dealer (a supposed expert) tells me one thing, and you say another...being a PI lawyer like I am, imagine if one of my tires blew for any reason, I get injured, and I sue for a defective tire...they measure the other 3 tires, see that I put 38 psi in them, and read the max 35 psi on the tire, guess who is at fault???...ME, for overinflating the tires...where will some expert like you be to testify that 35 psi doesn't really mean 35 psi???...I cannot go out right now to view the actual wording, as I am quite ill, but I will post the actual wording molded in a day or so, so you may analyze it and give feedback...it is not that I doubt your word, but can you understand the dilemma???...my Crown Vic has Goodyears that say 44 max psi, and Ford recommends cold 35 psi, so carrying them at 38 psi cold is no problem...further, the one Goodyear tire on the truck, the spare, also says max 35 psi...now TWO manufacturers have 35 psi max for a 35 psi recommended cold pressure from the manufacturer...any tire makes out there with 41 or 44 psi molded in my tire size, so I can carry 38 psi cold in the truck?
Just checked my Michelins. The symmetry tires say rated at a maximum load at 35 psi. maximum pressure. That tells me not to expect them to carry more that that 1709 pounds or whatever it was just by upping the pressure above 35. It doesn't say not to inflate above 35. It says the tires are not capable of higher loads even if I were to inflate higher.
The Harmonys say the same for 44 psi as max pressure for rating of load purposes. That might explain why the symmetry tires are softer than the X-ones or Harmonys I've had recently. They are meant to have a luxury car ride.
If it helps, and this is NOT a solicitation...I'm an automotive expert witness, and I'll gladly testify that your tire guy doesn't know beans about tires and having a tire at 38 psi didn't cause a tire failure.
I'm totally amazed at some of the incredibly uneducated things that come out of the mouths of some shop techs and managers, especially at chain shops like Midas, Meineke, and Pep Boys...pretty danged scary.
Both my sons work at Pep Boys in parts, it's a pretty decent job for a high school senior and a college freshman, discounts on stuff, decent pay, but the stories they come home with would curl your hair.
I have run tires at 3-4 pounds above car recommended pressures for decades. Thirty-five has been my max pressure cold. When the tires are driven the temperature increases which increases the pressure at about 1 pound pressure for each 10 degrees Fahrenheit. So that pressure goes above 35 pounds.
However, because of the increased pressure, the tires don't heat as much and and the pressure don't rise as much. If they are lower in pressure to start with, and driven at speeds and with loads such as 4 in the car, the tires heat up more, which adds more pressure which slows the increase in heating due to the additional pressure.
My point is starting with the higher pressure isn't going to end up with 3-4 pounds additional at highway speeds and 3 adults and lotsa luggage and ice cooler chest for refreshment on the road because of the reduction in extra heating.
at a max of 44 when I autocross, depending on what my tire paint shows me, and that's on vehicles rated at 28-35 psi by the manufacturer. I'd have a serious blast providing testimony for the argument that 3 psi caused problems. Heating tires up enough to have tread chunk off, while at 50 psi, and driving 70-80 mph through corners, and never a failure in 18 years...please.
I own an ES300, oem Michelin MXV4 (not MXV4+), replaced with Ziex-512s. The Ziexs in my size at 205-65R15 are suppose to be warrantied for 60K, but at my rate, I will only see 25-27K down to 2/32.
Anyone else getting poor treadwear with Ziex-512 or can recommend a tire better than it? Thank you
I think most tire dealers try to be helpful, and will try to answer your question, even if it means "making up" an answer. I don't think you can call them "experts", in much the same way you can't call vehicle dealers "car experts". Each of these have some knowledge and expertise, but there is a limit to their expertise
I can only say that I'm a lot closer to the folks who write that stuff on the sidewall.
But there is some new information that wasn't in your earlier posts - Do you say you are a Pl lawyer - as in "Product Liability"? If so, then you know about "Daubert" and that ought to clue you in.
I have a 2004 BMW 545i with sport package - 18 inch BMW wheels. I am looking to replace the rather uncomfortable OEM Dunlop run flats with a set of max performance summer tires. I am deciding between the Goodyear F1 GS-D3 and the Michelin PS2's. Tire sizes are 245/40-18 (front) and 275/35-18 (rear). While high performance is a priority, I would be willing to sacrifice the last degree of performsnce for some enhanced comfort. I live in the NYC area and we have a lot of potholes!
Hard choice, I have seen very high ratings for the Michelin PS2's. But I have to tell you I am also excited by the GY Eagle F1 GS-D3.
The D3's seem to balance out a lot of the negatives of the all out max performance tires like the GY Eagle F1 SuperCars. SC's are notoriously sticky, but because of max performance, dry traction design; suffer in the WET department and comfort department.
So my perspective is from three data points: 265-40-17, 295-35-18's GY Eagle F1 SuperCars. These were replaced with Toyo Proxes T1S's due to the fact, D3's do not currently come in the above stock sizes. Also with Michelin's Pilot Sports A/S's 205/50-17 on a BMW 330i.
"... we replaced them with a set of Goodyear's Eagle F1 GS-D3 maximum performance tires ($165 each). The excessive tire hum that plagued the Evo was gone, but the ride became even more harsh than before. Furthermore, a testing session revealed that the Goodyears couldn't match the grip of the original Advans (0.95 g versus 0.92 g) and subjectively the Eagles felt less predictable in wet cornering. At the end of the test, the Eagles had about 15,000 miles on them and looked as if they'd endure to at least 30,000. Despite the increased longevity, we'd look elsewhere for replacement tires."
I'd say most predictable. They need to (CnC) compare and contrast at least 5-10 likely suspects before they come off of the "goldilocks" (too hot:too cold, too hard:too soft etc syndrome.
There are a host of technical reasons you can probably infer as they mention them in passing. One example, a UTOQ of 140 vs Goodyear of 280. 2nd example, the suspension is very tuned to a specific set of parameters and in fact the ride probably started off hard as nails: so to merely switch the tire especially with a UTOQ of 280 vs old of 140 will most certainly change perception and things.
Even though the performance for the buck is very good, (30,000) it would seem to keep it going and keep it "FRESH" would require a sum of $ reserves equal to or exceeding the original cost of the EVO.
Seems a good used Corvette Z06 would be the ticket for those coveted romps on the track. Seems like you would need a spare set of rims, tire set choices, brake pads and rotors and obligatory brake fluid bleeds.
Let us know how it turns out! It seems GY is getting out of the BAD year tire making business!! The D3 might be one of the examples that puts the GOOD back in Goodyear.
Trying this same question in Honda CRV group. Perhaps this forum also has some input. Cheers!
I've got great winter tires Toyo Observe Plus, they really rip through the winter snow. 6000km and no probs so far.
I am now looking for good Summer tires, for dry/wet/and occasional unpaved roads. Checked out Tirerack but they actually suggest Bridgestones, which I cannot believe. Don't trust them. Too many bad reviewer ratings. Another suggestion was the GoodYear Comfort tread. Does anybody have a suggestion?
Comments
The French have been your friends for a long time (they helped you kick out the British and gave you the Statue of Liberty, remember?)
Friends are allowed to have a divergence of opinion, and real friends respect their friend's opinion. And in retrospect, the French were right to point out that your evidence and reasoning for going to war was wrong (jsut ask Powelll, he knew all along). They were in fact trying to do you a favour!
So this is all non-sense, and you're only hurting yourself if you won't buy a tire "just because" of a stupid disagreement.
Sly
This isn't a political forum, and I'm a very well-informed tire buyer and tuner shop owner, and in addition to not liking Michelins and many French products, I simply don't see the value in Michelin products.
I swap tires way too often to consider paying astromonical prices. If I had a Buick and wanted 80k tires, then Michelin might be a possibility.
I race autocross in 3 cars and drive a very fast, hopped up truck - Michelin has nothing to offer me, especially considering the cost.
Unfortunately, her aggressive driving has also brought multiple tickets and an accident, so her aggressiveness has all but gone away. The bigger reason was that we wanted tires with higher mileage numbers and a more aggressive rain/snow tread. The Goodyear Eagle LS could last maybe 25K miles, but they hydroplaned badly, even after 5K miles, and good snow traction lasted only one season. After two sets of these, we've had enough!
She's had the Michelin Harmonys on for 2 weeks now, and she wishes we found them sooner. Snow traction is excellent, no problem going up snow-covered hills, or driving through unplowed driveways. No noticeable loss in dry traction or performance compared to the LSs. If they only last 40K miles, I'll be happy, but I'm sure they'll have another 20K miles after that!
I am a long time user of Michelin SUV tires LTX's 275 70-16 (8 sets and its earlier variants and sizes). At the time of purchase they were probably the best in their class, abeit expensive. I have switched this application to Bridgestone Dueler AT Revo's and will switch the other one when the Michelin's wear out.
Also in the 195-65-15 tire size the Michelin MVX4's are not only at least 1.5-2x the price of others, they seem to last most folks app 34k. They don't even have a mileage warranty, both oem and aftermarket. In this application it seems their subordinate company BFG seems to make not only a cheaper tire but better in almost all performance parameters.
Michelin Pilot Sports are also close to $350-400 more than the Toyo Proxes T1S's that I decided to get.
Friend has one of the versions of MXV4 on Pacifica. They seem to be going to do just fine on mileage for him. He drives normally. No hotrodding but does corner the thing more than I would.
Michelin life: XH4 on 93 LeSabre only gave 110 and 100 K miles. Put two used tires on and traded the thing with 150K on it. (My wife made me trade; it ran fine.)
X-Ones on 98 LeSabre have 80K and have 4-5/32nds. Siping is gone and lost lot of snow traction for pull. Directional control still fine. Put on 2 Harmonys. Will replace two more next fall.
If I hotrodded like my 67 Mustang, I only got 80K out of X tires.
*********
I'm sure there are better traction tires or lower-priced higher quality tires. I just buy what has served me well.
As for cheaper: I'm too poor to be able to buy cheap stuff. I want quality that stays round and doesn't cause balance problems and that wears well.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In the case of the oem MXV4's, my lowly oem Goodyear's look to be able to go at least 85,000 miles vs the more normal Michelins of 34,000 miles. Needless to say replacement price is 72 vs 108.
So to me, the key is to: separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.
There are different versions of MXV4s from what I pick up from the Honda discussion. I wonder if some are stickier, softer rubber than others. AND OEM stuff may be a different rubber from the tire sold at the brand store because the manufacturer specified that the tire meet certain specs.
I had oem wide ovals from Firestone long ago that last 12K miles.
If I've gleaned wrong information about that, I belief Drift has been in the business or anyone else can correct me.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
OEM tires are made to weird specs, mostly for cost reasons, and I never recommend getting an exact copy of the OEM tires - perhaps the same brand and model, if you've liked them, but cross-shop the others by that manufacturer to make sure treadwear, traction, speed rating, and load range are EXACTLY what you want, not what the car manufacturer decided would fit THEIR bill and meet the lowest bid.
Any suggestion? Mic.MXV4 will help? or should I change to a thicker tires
My car has only 1500 miles with premium package
Please help
Paul
Hope this helps.
My top picks in the H rating 1 BFG Traction TA 2 Toyo TPT 3 Yokohama Avid H4S 4 Bridgestone RE 950.
Just a bit of clarification.
The "P" only sort of stands for "passenger". It's on a truck, right? That means there is more to than that.
The tire dealer was sort of right when he said that the "P" means 35 psi. That's true for Standard Load tires, but there are Extra Load tires, too, and those are 41 psi.
However, the dealer is totally wrong if he thinks that 35 psi means 35 psi is the absolute maximum pressure.
You see, the folks that make tire standards say that the load curve for P metric standard load tires ends at 35 psi and that's where the maximum load carrying capacity occurs. But the standards folks also say it is permissible (and they even hint at desirable) to use higher inflation pressures for certain circumstances. Those circumstances are generally higher speeds as experienced in Europe, but I think they are applicable any time someone exceeds 80 mph or the ambient temperature exceeds 100F.
Those other "maximum's" are 44 psi and 51 psi for both P metric and Euro metric tires (without the "P".) LT metric tires are a whole different kettle of fish and in some respects have this same problem.
For some reason Michelin seems to be the only tire manufacturer that doesn't put this higher inflation pressure on the sidewall, even though the standards say it is permitted. I can somewhat see that if the load curve ends at 35 psi, then putting 44 psi on the sidewall confuses people into thinking that the load curve ends at 44 psi (I can't tell you how many discussions I've had on that subject!!) On the other hand, there is your question.
BTW, P metric tires have a static burst pressure over 100 psi. Now don't be thinking you can actually use 100 psi (or even 50!), but the point is that 44 psi is certainly well within the "safe" zone.
I just wonder.......How does Michelin write this on the sidewall? If they say "Maximum XXXX pounds at 35 psi", then they aren't saying 35 psi is the maximum inflation pressure.......and all is right with the world!
Hope this helps.
However the fact that it is an OEM product with back up marketing hype is (unfortunately) the surest sign.
The reason why is pretty simple. One real world measure is they want to be able to get the highest fuel mileage to publish with a straight face. Or more importantly not to get sued!! ") (:. So it behooves them to put in the LEAST rolling resistant tires as possible!!
So for example on a VW Jetta TDI three "lower resistant" tires come oem. In rank order by poll of actual owners in the real world 1. Michelin MXV4 plus 2 Continental ContiContact Touring CH95 3 Goodyear Eagle LS-H.
I am in the market for new set of tires for my car and have narrowed it down to BF Goodrich precept and Goodyear Allegra tires, both of them are available in Canada through Canadian Tire.
I am confused on which one to buy, I am having tough time to figure out which one is more quieter and has better traction than the other one. I asked the service advisor at Canadian tire and he is saying Goodyear (reason they sell more of those and the tread pattern). I also did a quick search at Edmunds and found GoodYear Allegra tire referred in discussion forums a lot more than BF Goodrich Precept.
I would like to know if anybody has Goodyear Allegra or BF Goodrich Precept tires on there car and what there experience has been like?
Also from anybody else who has heard any good or bad things about these two tires?
Thanks for all of your help.
Also just as another poster has said the Michelin MXV4's has a few models. I hope he got the correct one for his needs.
Thanks,
Mike
Steve, Host
I had responded to a post that 44 psi was a burst pressure and that tires should not be inflated more than 1 or 2 pounds above the maker recommended pressure. The same post said the tires had to have a rounded sidewall or
"otherwise the sidewalls will not flex enough to provide proper handling, ride control, etc."
But I've always felt handling was better with 3 or 5 pounds more in the tires, especially fronts on FWD. Is that right or is control better with lower pressures? I've had a variety of cars with FWD, Century, LeSabre. But I even felt that true with RWD Mustang and Torino 73.
How about that pressure above doorpost?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What is your opinion on this gauge.?
Im thinking of getting a digital gauge and came across the Michelin gauge. How does it compare to the accutire gauge?
Steve, Host
There isn't a "Minimum Burst Pressure" - like a standard or a regulation. It turns out that if you design a tire correctly, you wind up with static burst pressures well over 100 psi. So it's just a consequence, not an intended result.
What is molded on the sidewall is a usage upper end. It is also true that more inflation pressure does increase the risk of impact type failures - a "burst", if you will. But characterizing what is molded on the sidewall as some sort of maximum for "burst" purposes is as wrong as thinking that what people do on the race track has a bearing on what people should do on the street. (Racing is such a peculiar activity from a vehicle operational point of view.)
Yes, more inflation pressure does improve steering response (how quick the tire, and therefore the vehicle, reacts to steering input) it also reduces the amount of heat generation and how much a tire "rolls over" on cornering - which is why folks use 40 to 50 psi in FWD cars when racing on "street" tires.
I also recommend 3 to 5 psi above the placard inflation - but that's a general rule and not always appropriate - and I do that based on my understand of what methodology is used to set the placard pressures. Part of my recommendation is based on my preference for a "crisper" steering response, but also on the idea that sacrificing a bit of ride softness and getting many improvements (hydroplaning resistance, durability, treadwear,etc) is just a good trade-off.
Hope this helps.
The Harmonys say the same for 44 psi as max pressure for rating of load purposes. That might explain why the symmetry tires are softer than the X-ones or Harmonys I've had recently. They are meant to have a luxury car ride.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm totally amazed at some of the incredibly uneducated things that come out of the mouths of some shop techs and managers, especially at chain shops like Midas, Meineke, and Pep Boys...pretty danged scary.
Both my sons work at Pep Boys in parts, it's a pretty decent job for a high school senior and a college freshman, discounts on stuff, decent pay, but the stories they come home with would curl your hair.
However, because of the increased pressure, the tires don't heat as much and and the pressure don't rise as much. If they are lower in pressure to start with, and driven at speeds and with loads such as 4 in the car, the tires heat up more, which adds more pressure which slows the increase in heating due to the additional pressure.
My point is starting with the higher pressure isn't going to end up with 3-4 pounds additional at highway speeds and 3 adults and lotsa luggage and ice cooler chest for refreshment on the road because of the reduction in extra heating.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If you're that concerned then adhere strictly to the written recommendations of the manufacturer.
tidester, host
I own an ES300, oem Michelin MXV4 (not MXV4+), replaced with Ziex-512s. The Ziexs in my size at 205-65R15 are suppose to be warrantied for 60K, but at my rate, I will only see 25-27K down to 2/32.
Anyone else getting poor treadwear with Ziex-512 or can recommend a tire better than it? Thank you
I think most tire dealers try to be helpful, and will try to answer your question, even if it means "making up" an answer. I don't think you can call them "experts", in much the same way you can't call vehicle dealers "car experts". Each of these have some knowledge and expertise, but there is a limit to their expertise
I can only say that I'm a lot closer to the folks who write that stuff on the sidewall.
But there is some new information that wasn't in your earlier posts - Do you say you are a Pl lawyer - as in "Product Liability"? If so, then you know about "Daubert" and that ought to clue you in.
Hope this helps.
Any thoughts or suggestions?
The D3's seem to balance out a lot of the negatives of the all out max performance tires like the GY Eagle F1 SuperCars. SC's are notoriously sticky, but because of max performance, dry traction design; suffer in the WET department and comfort department.
So my perspective is from three data points: 265-40-17, 295-35-18's GY Eagle F1 SuperCars. These were replaced with Toyo Proxes T1S's due to the fact, D3's do not currently come in the above stock sizes. Also with Michelin's Pilot Sports A/S's 205/50-17 on a BMW 330i.
Krzys
Krzys
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=9270&page_number=4
There are a host of technical reasons you can probably infer as they mention them in passing. One example, a UTOQ of 140 vs Goodyear of 280. 2nd example, the suspension is very tuned to a specific set of parameters and in fact the ride probably started off hard as nails: so to merely switch the tire especially with a UTOQ of 280 vs old of 140 will most certainly change perception and things.
..."With such a harsh suspension, many began to feel as if they'd joined a cult of flagellants."...
Krzys
Seems a good used Corvette Z06 would be the ticket for those coveted romps on the track. Seems like you would need a spare set of rims, tire set choices, brake pads and rotors and obligatory brake fluid bleeds.
I've got great winter tires Toyo Observe Plus, they really rip through the winter snow. 6000km and no probs so far.
I am now looking for good Summer tires, for dry/wet/and occasional unpaved roads. Checked out Tirerack but they actually suggest Bridgestones, which I cannot believe. Don't trust them. Too many bad reviewer ratings. Another suggestion was the GoodYear Comfort tread. Does anybody have a suggestion?
Krzys