These guys are right. It's all image. Practical people less worried about image will always get a van as they offer more room, better mileage, better ride quality and more convenience for less money. Of course I'm assuming no off roading.
Sometimes I wish that more people would go the minivan route and leave the SUVs alone. When I decided to join my off-roading friend out on the trail I found the number of vehicles to choose from pretty small (and really only one in my price range).
On the other hand, now that I'm looking for a snow/commuter car, I'm happy to have lots of choices. But I really do wonder about why the image of minivans has suffered so much, and what the appeal of SUVs is for most people not living in the snow belt or off-roaders. I've always thought that an SUV without 4WD was a waste. And yes, there are tons of 2WD vehicles in Canada that get along just fine. Unfortunately, California mountain areas just don't understand snow removal like Canadians do...
One of my personal favorites of all time is the All-trac Previa turbo along with the other AWD mini-vans out there. I'm looking forward to the upcoming AWD Full-sized vans from GM. Wish that the Japanese would come out with an AWD mini-van again...
I thought the mid-engine, laid-on-its-side-engine, was truly a unique, and well thought out design. I wished Toyota had continued with a second-generation model based on that original concept. Unfortunately, they played it safe, and came out with the utterly boring Senna.
My favorite Previa is the All-Trac, supercharged model (naturally...).
It was a mid-mounted 4 cylinder engine, so it was a little underpowered without the SC. Pretty wild, you lifted the seats inside to access the top of the engine (i.e. to add oil). I even think it was RWD?
An SC model ran $30 grand back then, a little steep for the class. Most people just prefer a V6, for bragging rights, but the SC could hold its own.
I think it was too quirky for American tastes. This market wants conventional V6/FWD/sliding doors.
Or an SUV, of course. People don't want to drive what their parents drove.
In the 70s, that was station wagons. In the 80s, it slowly changed to minivans. In the 90s, it's become SUVs. Will there be a back lash against SUVs when these kids grow up and want something different than what their parents had?
You know I'm not sure it's all image. When was the last time that you sat behind a mini van, in car, in traffic? You can't see anything?! My husband complains because when trying to merge on the freeway all the cars behind him are quickly jumping over and blocking him from merging. He says he has noticed this before, no one wants to be stuck behind the mini van and in their haste to flee are blocking him in. I'll admit the mini van is great for comfort (can't beat the drivers seats), but trying to park in a garage these days w/o losing a mirror is next to impossible- especially crammed next to these huge SUV's! There has to be a happy medium. Oh, I live in somewhat mountains by the way so I do worry about sliding down hill during the snowy season.
So you are changing from a mini-van to an SUV which will not help elimnate any of your problems, you still can't park em, and still can't see around em. Go figure...
I believe SUV's aren't as round or wide as Mini vans. Also, remember I'm not the one driving the thing. I drive the car now. It's more for my husband. You must own a mini van yourself?
I don't own one, but that's cause I do offroad my truck. If I didn't off-road my truck I would be driving an AWD Safari right now instead of my Trooper. If I had the money for more cars I'd definitely be getting one because I'm constantly hauling people and stuff around. I'm not sure where bob got the "stomp on mini-vans" idea because I'm quite the contrary. In fact lately I've actually complimented people when stuck in traffic on their purchase of a mini-van over an SUV!!!
maggoo: let's reverse the discussion, if you'll allow, and start with what your husband has his eye on.
What models is he shopping for? Has he listed alternatives yet?
I ask because many times people have an idea in their head, and are just waiting for another opinion to confirm it.
One piece of advice I always give, my 2 cents' worth, is to never buy a car (or SUV) that you don't love. If he's "OK with it" imagine how he'll hate it 60 payments from now. You gotta find something that excites you, at least when it's new.
I absolutely hate the soccer moms who buy SUVs uneccesarily and cause the demise of real SUV Trucks when they really want a mini-van w/o the stigma! So I love to compliment people who do the right thing!
Your quote" These guys are right. It's all image. Practical people less worried about image will always get a van as they offer more room, better mileage, better ride quality and more convenience for less money. Of course I'm assuming no off roading. " ============ Actually, if you compare a mini-van to any of the vehicles in this mini-suv class you'll find: a. mini-suv's get better mileage b. mini-suv's have better performance and handling c. mini-suv's cost less than mini-vans for the same features. d. ride quality is very similar (I prefer the slightly more firm and positive feel of the mini-suv such as the Escape vs. mini-vans which tend to have a more rolly feel.
Your point about mini-van having more room, your right. If your needs are more than 5 people capacity then minivan is a more clear choice. Your also right about folks buy SUV's for image, but for many folks (even if they don't go off-road at all), the mini-suv is a more practical choice.
If you start comparing mini-vans to the midsize and larger SUV's, your points are all right on.
<< I absolutely hate the soccer moms who buy SUVs uneccesarily and cause the demise of real SUV Trucks when they really want a mini-van w/o the stigma! >>
Don't you think there's an outside chance that these people (soccer moms, etc.) also buy SUVs because of their all weather capability, which mini-vans don't offer?
<< and cause the demise of real SUV Trucks >>
How so?? By purchasing them, they're keeping them in business, I would think... In fact, I'm sure that because of all the soccer moms out there, your Trooper (and other SUVs) have stayed in the market as long as they have. Without them, their production (of some SUVs) would probably have ended by now.
They have caused even the truck based SUVs to become wattered down. Look at the Trailblazer/Envoy, Explorer, etc. If Soccer moms weren't buying them, they'd still be 1/2 way decent offroad vehicles and tow vehicles. Now they've become bloated and payloads have been reduced, angles of approach and departure have gone to the toilet.
As for "all weather capabilities" up until about 2 years ago most of them didn't even have an AWD option so the soccer moms were driving around in RWD thinking they had a 4x4 in these adverse conditions. Also if they stuck to the mini-vans the manufacturers would have continued to develop AWD mini-vans instead of the half-baked SUVs out there!
Well, it depends on the mini SUV. The ones with V6's don't get better mileage and they definitely all have less room and convenience than any minivan.You are probably right about the handing but the costs are very similar though the SUVs we priced were more than similarly equipped vans.
That all said, we will likely get a small SUV next as my wife won't drive a van.
It is a pleasure to see an old-timer pro-SUV really blast an image-SUV purchase. Mike (paisan) way to go buddy....we have a history back in the "I don't like SUV" forum.
As regards to minivans vs SUVs, there is no doubt minivans deliver way more bang for the money...they will run circles around the SUVs, have less propensity to roll, have better safety features (check out NHTSA and IIA web-sites) and are actually faster than most SUVs. By the way, the best selling vehicle in Canada is not a truck, it is Dodge minivan....so go figure. Obviously, the snow capability of SUVs is highly overrated...
I, for one, do not understand the image thing of SUVs...to me they are just another soccer-kid mobiles with a hypocrite (those who are the first ones to take off their wedding ring when they enter a club) as a driver....double whammy. Talk to any SUV driver...you will know.
All said, why don't these Cute-Uters look at the wagons/hatchbacks which deliver the same punch for far less money?
Before I bought forester in April this year I had compared CR-V, tribute (escape). I chose forester finally. The main reasons:
1. Forester is the quiest one. Tribute and escape are the worest two. I could not bear the noise at all, even with its V6---no use at all. On the high way you will know what I mean. I tested drive twice(tribute and escape each)-----horrible! Tribute evn got strange noise in my left front side.
(Sorry, I am not sure if the tribute and escape, which are made in Taiwan are with the same quality as the ones in America or Canada)
2. Forester is more fuel economic. no need to say. 3. Too many tribute and escape in Taiwan. I like to have my own way. 4. I saw there are two steel bars in the rear wheel of escape and tribute, then I believe it's not a good off-road SUV. bingo! my neighbor drove his 3.0 V6 escape to the riverside to have a off-road test. When he came back, I saw him fulling a long face. I view it as a over-estimated expectation. 5. 2.0 is too small , 3.0 is too big for me. 2.5 is just right. 6. Crash test, --- of course, forester won again. 7. Forester is nimble and quick in start. Great feeling! 8. BIG moonroof. Wow! I have never seen anyone like this. In a sense, it's good.
BUT...
1. I like the shape of escape and tribute more, especially tribute. I just love it!!! Forester is a boring in shape and design. 2. It's rather expensive for forester to do the repair and maintenance in Taiwan, compared with tribute and escape. However, I assume forester is a more reliable one among these three cars. . little repair is needed, I assume... 3. Forester have an auto warming seat, which is useless in Taiwan. I have no chance at all to use it. The temperature is between 10 to 35 C in Taiwan. 4. The moonroof is too big, and the sun in Taiwan is too strong. A little bit of waste, huh? 5. The cupholder of forester is really a silly design. 6. No gas cap lock in forester, bad design. Anyone can "add" something into it. Any suggestion?
CR-V...yes I nearly forgot it. I ranked its performance as the second. However, I gave it up because HONDA Japan just ended its partnership with Sangyang (local dealer in Taiwan) in April this year. I did not want to take the risk being an orphan after the contract ended. However, I love it after the test drive, though 2.0 is a bit small for me. BTW, SUBARU just ended its partnership with Taiwan Da Ching (local dealer, importer), now Japan SUBARU is taking over for a new start. finger crossed!
...we have a history back in the "I don't like SUV" forum.
Speaking of which, people there are wondering what happened to you - haven't seen you in a while.
Regarding soccer moms, I don't know why they should/would be singled out from soccer dads. Perhaps it's just a little easier to chastise a woman for making an image purchase than a man. But it's the same deal and I don't see the need to distinguish on the basis of gender.
above: minivans have become EXPENSIVE! (Sedona excepted). All of the mini-utes on this board are in the low-20's except for SF which is in the high teens, so thay are all AT LEAST $2-4K less than the T&C, Odyssey, or even the much-maligned and underrated Sienna.
I am a minivan proponent myself, compared to all this misdirected SUV buying that goes on, but the argument is less potent when considering the MINI-utes instead. The only advantage for minivans in this case is interior room.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
tend to be about the same price, except for Subie, which makes the legacy wagon still, starting at about $17K (going by memory here). There aren't a whole lot of wagon choices except for luxury brands, which cost a WHOLE LOT! And the hatchbacks available out there do not offer anywhere near as much room as mini-utes, if you are willing to stack stuff up.
One other wagon, but I am not sure if they still make it available: Ford Taurus...can you still get the wagon? If so, that is less than $20K too...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
yuhan1995- Wow, I feel like I just got a real wake up call on how much convenience we take for granted in the US! Good luck!
tidesterHost- Here! Here!
Looks like I may need to go to Canada to trade my Dodge since I can't seem to get a good price in the US.
Something I've thought about a lot lately since entering this discussion. Another reason I don't like driving our mini van (when I have to) is I don't feel like I get there as quickly. Now hear me out before everyone starts to dog pile this issue but I generally feel like it takes me longer to get where I'm going (especially when I'm in a hurry- which is all the time), merging, changing lanes, parking, getting in and out, everything takes longer. The only thing that doesn't is putting my son in his carseat- that one step is quicker because of the height.
Everything is getting expensive! Vans are getting expensive. Pay attention to the length, every time I see a mini van I look at the length, you know those shorter versions, they're cheaper! Tented windows- cheaper, to cruise or not- more $$$$, they cost an arm and a leg, because they know- you need all of it, rear air-is that a necessity? Whoever knocked the Toyota Sienna, hasn't gotten in it- it's nice! The only down fall is they have put a majority of the functions on the two sticks behind the steering wheel which unless mastered can be confusing. But an addition for the soccer"persons" is the one touch sliding door release button that is pushed from the drivers seat opening the passenger sliding door meaning you never have to get out of the drivers seat in the rain!
Back to SUV's- the good thing is that now a majority of these mini's are adding the third row seats. This accommodates people in my situation who really don't need extra seating but once or twice a year but likes the height of the SUV/Mini van. Now manufacturers are opening up more possibilities to us! Before it was simply the Rav4 and CRV and standard size SUV but now there is a middle man and that is good- it just needs tweeking (and for everything to get a bit cheaper).
I don't think you want to bring a US vehicle to Canada to sell. With the exchange the way it is in Canada right now, it is definately a buyer's market if you start comparing to US prices. For example: MSRP on a base 4 cyl. manual Saturn VUE with destination charges in the US is $16900. Change that to Cdn. funds at an exchange rate of 55% (which would be low right now) and the cost is $26195 Canadian. However, the base price of the same model in Canada, with destination charges is $22495 - a savings of nearly $4000 compared to if it were purchased in the US!!! If you could get away with it, it would be wise for Americans to come to Canada to buy a vehicle - unfortunately though, you can't do it.
I miss you all!!! But it was getting addictive to the point that I was having that forum always on on my computer......so I had to pull myself away. I visit from time to time and see that others are doing a decent job of questioning motives and providing facts. And me...I have turned into just a loafer :-)
Say what you will about these folks, but the fact of the matter is these customers, the soccer moms/dads, are one of the main reasons why there is such a choice out there in the SUV market.
We all know that about 90% of these owners never go off road. Paisan says that these people should have bought other vehicles that perhaps(?) might better serve their needs. Okay, let's think about that for a moment...
If this 90% of SUV population, did as Mike said (buy other more appropriate vehicles to their needs), that leaves 10% of the market to true, hard-core SUV owners, who use them as they should (whatever that is).
Do you think you would have as many SUV choices from which to pick, if that were the case? Remember, we're talking about 10% of the market now. Think 90% is too severe? Okay, let's make that 60%, which would leave 40% of the current market to true SUV buyers...
Do you think that marginal (in terms of sales) SUV manufacturers would enter the SUV market here in the USA, if 60% of their market disappeared? I'm talking about Land Rover, Isuzu, Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Hundyai, Kai, etc. I bet they would drop out of the SUV market segment, because there wouldn't be a large enough slice of the SUV pie to make it worthwhile for them to enter.
Instead of being critical of all the SUV soccer moms/dads, you should be thanking them, because they allow you to drive the vehicle of your choice—the Isuzu Trooper, which would almost certainly have disappeared years ago, without their (soccer mom/dad) sales.
The market has become segmented, so that every need is addressed.
There are still plenty of body-on-frame trucks, like the Rodeo, XTerra, 3 different Vitaras, etc. Even the new 4Runner.
Then you have the unibody Grand Cherokee and Pathfinder, still SUVs, but maybe a little more civilized.
Then you get to the hybrid car-based ones, like the RX300, Highlander, Vue, Forester, Outlander, Escape, CR-V, RAV4, etc.
I think there are plenty of options.
We tested minivans - they feel universally heavy. The Ody EX with an extended warranty was close to $30 grand, or more than we wanted to spend. The Sedona had a lumpy seat, but otherwise was close. $25k or so for an MPV, and again we felt indifferent about it, where's the love? ;-)
So we "got over it" and bought a wagon - our Legacy L was $17,827. Even after adding a moonroof, alloys, and a 6CD changer we've only invested $19 grand.
Even so, I'll admit - the Forester is just more fun. More fun to drive, more nimble, more manueverable. The wagon is longer, smoother, quieter, and in every sense makes a better family car, but force me to choose and I'd still pick my Forester.
Why get angry at soccer moms for choosing the vehicle that they feel suits them best? I know several women who are attracted to big SUVs. Those cars, with their great bulk, convey a (false) sense of invulnerability, and that appeals to women, especially those who are driving with children. Many soccer moms like the high seating position of SUVs, as that gives them a sense of security. Others like the fact they can pack all their kis' stuff quickly without drawing out a chart in advance to make things fit in a small space. And here in MN any driver would be a fool to ignore the safety and convenience of AWD or 4WD.
How can you blame a soccer mom for being drawn to what she perceives as the roomiest and safest vehicle on the market? She might feel guilty about getting 11 MPG, but she's still going to choose the big, confidence-inspiring truck when it comes to driving around with her precious youngsters strapped in their carseats.
The Subaru does sound wonderful but the third row seat for an SUV and it's mini size is still a huge draw.....here we go again. But let me just say that if the Forester had it, I'd be all over it! The question then is finding the mini SUV, third row seat, that's affordable.
But Isuzu has ALWAYS made SUVs and would still be in business if the johnny come latelys didn't show up. Think of it this way, if they didn't have all these people who wanted to have CARS buying TRUCKS, then the market would be smaller and the # of manufacturers of SUVs would be even smaller, thereby allowing true SUV makers to sell MORE SUVs.
The reason for the Trooper demise was the LIES by CR.
But is the soccer mom really safe? I have a friend who swears by her large Tahoe because she says she feels safer but is she? So many of the large SUV's are top heavy and have a history of rolling, that is one of the main reasons people gravitate towards the mini van when they hate the look- for safety reasons only (not many dateline investigation on that unless we talk about seat belts). These days many of the mini SUV's are getting better reputations then their big brothers/sisters.
I find 3 rows of seats appealing, but ask yourself:
* do you really need to carry more than 5 people? * have you actually sampled some tiny 3rd rows? * why not drive two (more fun) cars on those rare occasions when you need 8 seats?
Thing is, you carry around all that bulk when you don't need it, and 90% of the time you are by yourself (typical driver). I don't find big trucks "fun", they are clumsy and heavy.
We tried the XL7 - the 3rd row is sort of a bad joke, and it feels way too long/narrow. I drove a Pilot and even if you overlook the fact that it was out of my price range, it's still not any fun to pilot (pardon the pun).
Isuzu's while still available in Canada are very limited. The only two models they sell are the Rodeo and the Trooper however the Trooper is by special order only - the dealers don't carry them at all.
I went to the N.A. autoshow in Detroit last January and fell in love with the convertible Rodeo Sport only to be disappointed as I cannot get one in Canada - that is partly how I wound up with a VUE. Saturn, Isuzu, Saab are all one dealership up here.
Maggoo: Point well taken. I've known several SUVs to flip over, and the terrible story of the Explorer accidents following tire failures might have put big dents in perception of SUVs as safe tanks. I wish soccer moms didn't see SUVs as safer than something like a Forester, but I find it hard to blame them for instinctively being drawn to vehicles that give the perception of ultimate safety. Most women I know would drive street sweepers if they thought that vehicle would get the kiddies from A to B most safely.
They are wrong, but I can't blame soccer moms for their choices.
I like to say that on the Wrangler board when people get into whether they should off-road their vehicles or not, have a top on or not, have doors on or not.
I'm hoping to be able to afford one of each - an off-roader and something like a Subaru or ? to commute in. I do think that 4WD is often misunderstood when it comes to snow, but my 4x4 does get me out of my driveway when my 2WD Taco can't. And I'd like to both get out of my driveway and commute to work in luxury.
I don't like the 3d seat - I have no use for it, and don't want to give up the cargo room (and why should I pay extra for something like that?). If someone has a need for a 3d seat, they should get something bigger. I really have a problem with people giving "extra points" for the 3d row seat vehicles - they are different "beasts" and shouldn't be compared. Leave the mini-SUVs alone as mini-SUVs - don't make them into something they aren't!
Comments
On the other hand, now that I'm looking for a snow/commuter car, I'm happy to have lots of choices. But I really do wonder about why the image of minivans has suffered so much, and what the appeal of SUVs is for most people not living in the snow belt or off-roaders. I've always thought that an SUV without 4WD was a waste. And yes, there are tons of 2WD vehicles in Canada that get along just fine. Unfortunately, California mountain areas just don't understand snow removal like Canadians do...
-mike
A buddy of mine had one as a company car, and still remembers it fondly. And he has no kids!
Previas had forced induction, but I think they were supercharged, right? And a little pricey. They still make 'em in Japan, I think.
-juice
-mike
Bob
-mike
My favorite Previa is the All-Trac, supercharged model (naturally...).
Bob
An SC model ran $30 grand back then, a little steep for the class. Most people just prefer a V6, for bragging rights, but the SC could hold its own.
I think it was too quirky for American tastes. This market wants conventional V6/FWD/sliding doors.
Or an SUV, of course. People don't want to drive what their parents drove.
In the 70s, that was station wagons. In the 80s, it slowly changed to minivans. In the 90s, it's become SUVs. Will there be a back lash against SUVs when these kids grow up and want something different than what their parents had?
-juice
-juice
I like quirky, that's why I like Subies...
Bob
Supposedly, the next Sienna is gonna be a true Odyssey fighter. We'll see.
-juice
-mike
Sorry for laughing... but that's an image for the ages...
No, he owns a monster truck (aka a heavily modified Trooper, designed to stomp on mini-vans, and eat them alive).
Again, my apologies, but you just made my day!
Bob
rsholland- laugh away! I did! Thanks for the info!
-mike
What models is he shopping for? Has he listed alternatives yet?
I ask because many times people have an idea in their head, and are just waiting for another opinion to confirm it.
One piece of advice I always give, my 2 cents' worth, is to never buy a car (or SUV) that you don't love. If he's "OK with it" imagine how he'll hate it 60 payments from now. You gotta find something that excites you, at least when it's new.
-juice
Bob
-mike
These guys are right. It's all image. Practical people less worried about image will always get a van as they offer more room, better mileage, better ride quality and more convenience for less money. Of course I'm assuming no off roading. "
============
Actually, if you compare a mini-van to any of the vehicles in this mini-suv class you'll find:
a. mini-suv's get better mileage
b. mini-suv's have better performance and handling
c. mini-suv's cost less than mini-vans for the same features.
d. ride quality is very similar (I prefer the slightly more firm and positive feel of the mini-suv such as the Escape vs. mini-vans which tend to have a more rolly feel.
Your point about mini-van having more room, your right. If your needs are more than 5 people capacity then minivan is a more clear choice.
Your also right about folks buy SUV's for image, but for many folks (even if they don't go off-road at all), the mini-suv is a more practical choice.
If you start comparing mini-vans to the midsize and larger SUV's, your points are all right on.
Don't you think there's an outside chance that these people (soccer moms, etc.) also buy SUVs because of their all weather capability, which mini-vans don't offer?
<< and cause the demise of real SUV Trucks >>
How so?? By purchasing them, they're keeping them in business, I would think... In fact, I'm sure that because of all the soccer moms out there, your Trooper (and other SUVs) have stayed in the market as long as they have. Without them, their production (of some SUVs) would probably have ended by now.
Bob
As for "all weather capabilities" up until about 2 years ago most of them didn't even have an AWD option so the soccer moms were driving around in RWD thinking they had a 4x4 in these adverse conditions. Also if they stuck to the mini-vans the manufacturers would have continued to develop AWD mini-vans instead of the half-baked SUVs out there!
< /rant >
-mike
PS: Sorry for going way way off topic in here.
That all said, we will likely get a small SUV next as my wife won't drive a van.
As regards to minivans vs SUVs, there is no doubt minivans deliver way more bang for the money...they will run circles around the SUVs, have less propensity to roll, have better safety features (check out NHTSA and IIA web-sites) and are actually faster than most SUVs. By the way, the best selling vehicle in Canada is not a truck, it is Dodge minivan....so go figure. Obviously, the snow capability of SUVs is highly overrated...
I, for one, do not understand the image thing of SUVs...to me they are just another soccer-kid mobiles with a hypocrite (those who are the first ones to take off their wedding ring when they enter a club) as a driver....double whammy. Talk to any SUV driver...you will know.
All said, why don't these Cute-Uters look at the wagons/hatchbacks which deliver the same punch for far less money?
1. Forester is the quiest one. Tribute and escape are the worest two. I could not bear the noise at all, even with its V6---no use at all. On the high way you will know what I mean. I tested drive twice(tribute and escape each)-----horrible! Tribute evn got strange noise in my left front side.
(Sorry, I am not sure if the tribute and escape, which are made in Taiwan are with the same quality as the ones in America or Canada)
2. Forester is more fuel economic. no need to say.
3. Too many tribute and escape in Taiwan. I like to have my own way.
4. I saw there are two steel bars in the rear wheel of escape and tribute, then I believe it's not a good off-road SUV. bingo! my neighbor drove his 3.0 V6 escape to the riverside to have a off-road test. When he came back, I saw him fulling a long face. I view it as a over-estimated expectation.
5. 2.0 is too small , 3.0 is too big for me. 2.5 is just right.
6. Crash test, --- of course, forester won again.
7. Forester is nimble and quick in start. Great feeling!
8. BIG moonroof. Wow! I have never seen anyone like this. In a sense, it's good.
BUT...
1. I like the shape of escape and tribute more, especially tribute. I just love it!!! Forester is a boring in shape and design.
2. It's rather expensive for forester to do the repair and maintenance in Taiwan, compared with tribute and escape. However, I assume forester is a more reliable one among these three cars. . little repair is needed, I assume...
3. Forester have an auto warming seat, which is useless in Taiwan. I have no chance at all to use it. The temperature is between 10 to 35 C in Taiwan.
4. The moonroof is too big, and the sun in Taiwan is too strong. A little bit of waste, huh?
5. The cupholder of forester is really a silly design.
6. No gas cap lock in forester, bad design. Anyone can "add" something into it. Any suggestion?
CR-V...yes I nearly forgot it. I ranked its performance as the second. However, I gave it up because HONDA Japan just ended its partnership with Sangyang (local dealer in Taiwan) in April this year. I did not want to take the risk being an orphan after the contract ended. However, I love it after the test drive, though 2.0 is a bit small for me. BTW, SUBARU just ended its partnership with Taiwan Da Ching (local dealer, importer), now Japan SUBARU is taking over for a new start. finger crossed!
Speaking of which, people there are wondering what happened to you - haven't seen you in a while.
Regarding soccer moms, I don't know why they should/would be singled out from soccer dads. Perhaps it's just a little easier to chastise a woman for making an image purchase than a man. But it's the same deal and I don't see the need to distinguish on the basis of gender.
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
I am a minivan proponent myself, compared to all this misdirected SUV buying that goes on, but the argument is less potent when considering the MINI-utes instead. The only advantage for minivans in this case is interior room.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-mike
-mike
One other wagon, but I am not sure if they still make it available: Ford Taurus...can you still get the wagon? If so, that is less than $20K too...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
tidesterHost- Here! Here!
Looks like I may need to go to Canada to trade my Dodge since I can't seem to get a good price in the US.
Something I've thought about a lot lately since entering this discussion. Another reason I don't like driving our mini van (when I have to) is I don't feel like I get there as quickly. Now hear me out before everyone starts to dog pile this issue but I generally feel like it takes me longer to get where I'm going (especially when I'm in a hurry- which is all the time), merging, changing lanes, parking, getting in and out, everything takes longer. The only thing that doesn't is putting my son in his carseat- that one step is quicker because of the height.
Everything is getting expensive! Vans are getting expensive. Pay attention to the length, every time I see a mini van I look at the length, you know those shorter versions, they're cheaper! Tented windows- cheaper, to cruise or not- more $$$$, they cost an arm and a leg, because they know- you need all of it, rear air-is that a necessity? Whoever knocked the Toyota Sienna, hasn't gotten in it- it's nice! The only down fall is they have put a majority of the functions on the two sticks behind the steering wheel which unless mastered can be confusing. But an addition for the soccer"persons" is the one touch sliding door release button that is pushed from the drivers seat opening the passenger sliding door meaning you never have to get out of the drivers seat in the rain!
Back to SUV's- the good thing is that now a majority of these mini's are adding the third row seats. This accommodates people in my situation who really don't need extra seating but once or twice a year but likes the height of the SUV/Mini van. Now manufacturers are opening up more possibilities to us! Before it was simply the Rav4 and CRV and standard size SUV but now there is a middle man and that is good- it just needs tweeking (and for everything to get a bit cheaper).
We all know that about 90% of these owners never go off road. Paisan says that these people should have bought other vehicles that perhaps(?) might better serve their needs. Okay, let's think about that for a moment...
If this 90% of SUV population, did as Mike said (buy other more appropriate vehicles to their needs), that leaves 10% of the market to true, hard-core SUV owners, who use them as they should (whatever that is).
Do you think you would have as many SUV choices from which to pick, if that were the case? Remember, we're talking about 10% of the market now. Think 90% is too severe? Okay, let's make that 60%, which would leave 40% of the current market to true SUV buyers...
Do you think that marginal (in terms of sales) SUV manufacturers would enter the SUV market here in the USA, if 60% of their market disappeared? I'm talking about Land Rover, Isuzu, Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Hundyai, Kai, etc. I bet they would drop out of the SUV market segment, because there wouldn't be a large enough slice of the SUV pie to make it worthwhile for them to enter.
Instead of being critical of all the SUV soccer moms/dads, you should be thanking them, because they allow you to drive the vehicle of your choice—the Isuzu Trooper, which would almost certainly have disappeared years ago, without their (soccer mom/dad) sales.
Bob
There are still plenty of body-on-frame trucks, like the Rodeo, XTerra, 3 different Vitaras, etc. Even the new 4Runner.
Then you have the unibody Grand Cherokee and Pathfinder, still SUVs, but maybe a little more civilized.
Then you get to the hybrid car-based ones, like the RX300, Highlander, Vue, Forester, Outlander, Escape, CR-V, RAV4, etc.
I think there are plenty of options.
We tested minivans - they feel universally heavy. The Ody EX with an extended warranty was close to $30 grand, or more than we wanted to spend. The Sedona had a lumpy seat, but otherwise was close. $25k or so for an MPV, and again we felt indifferent about it, where's the love? ;-)
So we "got over it" and bought a wagon - our Legacy L was $17,827. Even after adding a moonroof, alloys, and a 6CD changer we've only invested $19 grand.
Even so, I'll admit - the Forester is just more fun. More fun to drive, more nimble, more manueverable. The wagon is longer, smoother, quieter, and in every sense makes a better family car, but force me to choose and I'd still pick my Forester.
-juice
How can you blame a soccer mom for being drawn to what she perceives as the roomiest and safest vehicle on the market? She might feel guilty about getting 11 MPG, but she's still going to choose the big, confidence-inspiring truck when it comes to driving around with her precious youngsters strapped in their carseats.
Steve
The Subaru does sound wonderful but the third row seat for an SUV and it's mini size is still a huge draw.....here we go again. But let me just say that if the Forester had it, I'd be all over it! The question then is finding the mini SUV, third row seat, that's affordable.
The reason for the Trooper demise was the LIES by CR.
-mike
* do you really need to carry more than 5 people?
* have you actually sampled some tiny 3rd rows?
* why not drive two (more fun) cars on those rare occasions when you need 8 seats?
Thing is, you carry around all that bulk when you don't need it, and 90% of the time you are by yourself (typical driver). I don't find big trucks "fun", they are clumsy and heavy.
We tried the XL7 - the 3rd row is sort of a bad joke, and it feels way too long/narrow. I drove a Pilot and even if you overlook the fact that it was out of my price range, it's still not any fun to pilot (pardon the pun).
-juice
I went to the N.A. autoshow in Detroit last January and fell in love with the convertible Rodeo Sport only to be disappointed as I cannot get one in Canada - that is partly how I wound up with a VUE. Saturn, Isuzu, Saab are all one dealership up here.
They are wrong, but I can't blame soccer moms for their choices.
Steve
I'm hoping to be able to afford one of each - an off-roader and something like a Subaru or ? to commute in. I do think that 4WD is often misunderstood when it comes to snow, but my 4x4 does get me out of my driveway when my 2WD Taco can't. And I'd like to both get out of my driveway and commute to work in luxury.
I don't like the 3d seat - I have no use for it, and don't want to give up the cargo room (and why should I pay extra for something like that?). If someone has a need for a 3d seat, they should get something bigger. I really have a problem with people giving "extra points" for the 3d row seat vehicles - they are different "beasts" and shouldn't be compared. Leave the mini-SUVs alone as mini-SUVs - don't make them into something they aren't!