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Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,329
    the edmunds article mentions 3.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    4-hi (AWD), 4-hi lock, 2-lo lock & Neutral.

    Bob
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    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,329
    what is neutral? for being towed(like behind an rv)?
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Yep.

    Bob
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Next we'll here they upgraded to a 5 mode, just add:

    * broken
    * off

    LOL. Gimme a break.

    -juice
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Traditional old-time 4x4s all have a neutral position in the transfer case. Jeeps still do. My old '87 F-150 4x4 had a neutral position too. I think most Detroit full-size pickups still have that feature, at least the HD models do.

    Also, a lot of new 4x4s don't have a neutral in the transfer case, so I think it's a legit selling feature—and a worthwhile feature, if you need to be towed (and not just behind an RV). Old-time, hardcore off-roaders prefer having that feature.

    There's a good description of "Neutral" on this Jeep link, under Quadra-Trac II/Quadra-Drive II "Operating Instructions and Precautions":

    http://www.wkjeeps.com/wk_4x4.htm

    Bob
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I would think the AWD mode could handle towing scenarios. Mabye not, though.

    I guess for tow trucks that leave 2 tires on the ground, the neutral is useful.

    -juice
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    With a neutral position in the transfer case, you can tow with all 4 wheels on the ground. This is especially useful if you hook it up behind an RV motorhome, to be used as your runabout when you park that big rig.

    Also, since it's full-time 4WD, you won't require a rollback tow truck, should you break down.

    Bob
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Thats funny... I have an 01 XLT V6 4WD Escape and it has skid plates???? One :surprise: in front and one protecting the differential..
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    The only vehicles that are truely able to "offroad" here are the Jeep and the Xterra.. As much as Subaru pushes there offroad prowness... not going to cut it in the real world. I own an Escape and do visit the Cascade range to visit my favorite fishing holes. I use old logging roads but never wander off of them. Escape handles them just fine. But I would never, ever attempt what a Jeep or an Xterra could do....
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I agree. But then again the Forester doesn't ride like a Jeep or Xterra. Of course everybodys definition of off-road various, but I go off-road when I go to the mall.
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Subaru doesn't push off-road prowess as much as you may think. They know the car's limits. What they're saying is that for what most SUV owners actually use their vehicle for, a Subaru will handle those tasks as well if not better. That's all. That's includes light off-roading.

    Bob
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They push that image more in Australia than in the US. The aussies get a low range, full-size spares, and good aftermarket support for lift kits and low profile bumpers and such.

    Are the Escape's skid plates metal or plastic? I kind of doubt they're metal, it's probably just cosmetic.

    -juice
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Front one is a heavy plastic, one that covers the differential is metal. Fact is someone claimed NO skidplates at all... Wrong information. There are skidplates on the Ford Escape...Cosmetic? Why do you think this? Don't think Ford knows anyting about offroad gear? or how to protect the undercarrage of a vehicle? C'mon folks, these are not offroad vehicles. I can go anywhere in my Escape that a Forester can.. or a RAV4, or a VUE or a CRV.. I cannot go anywhere a Jeep or Xterra can go and I can live with that. I don't need to go where they go. I have had my Escape Burired just above the step bars in snow and it did fine. I have had it on some pretty beat-up logging roads and it did fine. I do however know this vehicles limits. This is a car frame, not a truck frame.. I have had my Escape pulling two watercraft, loaded with 4 adults, gear in back and ontop and it also did fine...Thats the difference between a Forester and an Escape! ;)
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    ozman62ozman62 Member Posts: 229
    "had my Escape pulling two watercraft, loaded with 4 adults, gear in back and ontop" Which of these can't the Forester do? :confuse:
    Owen
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I stand corrected on the skid plate. Relax, switch to de-caf, maybe. :P

    The rear diff may be protected, but the lower control arms of the suspensions are visibly exposed, well below the level of the rear diff. You can see that without from behind any Escape without even bending down. I'll try to get a pic to show what I mean.

    The Forester's under side is much cleaner and everything is tucked in. The photo below proves that.

    However, Escape doesn't have all that much payload, no more than a Forester. You might have exceeded the capacity, but that not mean it was safe to do so. You also probably voided the warranty on the shocks, springs, axles, wheel bearings, and brakes.

    Besides, personal watercraft are fairly light, I've hauled loaded like that, and here's a pic to prove it. That's 3 yards of wood chips on a 5'x8' trailer, a full load for a long-bed Ford F150 by the way.

    And if you want to talk about ultimate capacity, if you were pulling a full load plus a trailer up a mountain, a mile above sea level, you'd be much better off with a Forester XT, turbo pumping, than you would with any naturally aspirated Escape wheezing at that altitude with power loss due to thin air.

    -juice
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    This demonstrates my point perfectly, take a look at the pic below.

    You can clearly see the rear suspension dips way, way below the rear differential. In fact my guess is that skid plate you were so proud of is basically useless, you'd hit those lower arms in the suspension well before you ever hit the differential.

    Ford might claim 8" or more of ground clearance. Sure, at the rear diff. But look just to the sides, it's actually a lot less, and those are the type of things that can get hung up on rocks and get you stuck, or cause you to high center.

    The lowest point on a Forester, as you can see above, is the front cross member under the engine. That's strong enough to be a jacking point, so it won't be damaged even if you do bang it up and high center.

    -juice
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    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,329
    just measured the escape. 7 inches clearance at the lowest part of the rear control arms. rear center is at least 9 and half. lowest point in the front is 8 inches.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Which is adequate for light duties its intended for. Risk any more and you're likely to snag those and possibly cause damage.

    A big deal was being made about skid plates - they won't make a difference.

    -juice
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    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,329
    a skip plate would help if it is in the front. the back wouldn't need it as much. there is a fixed frame around the rear differential. the tires would probably get you in trouble before the suspension.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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    suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    ...that none of these units are rock-hoppers, and he's right, so why this discussion about clearances?

    Climbing in the snow, the Escape did very well, better than just about all the others, in that White Snow and the Eleven Dwarfs comparo article (C&D? R&T? A&P?).
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    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,329
    that clearance could come in handy when the neighborhood cat darts across your path while you are driving up the street. :)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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    p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Why argue the off-road merits (or lack there-of) of car-based SUVs? Clearly the Liberty or the Xterra would be the better choice if you truly need to wander far from the beathen path but any of these vehicles is more than capable of handling the limited "off-road" demands of the vast majority of drivers.

    -Frank
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    way out of hand. These are not offroad vehicles. Anyone who thinks so deserves a twisted frame or control arm. What do you mean take my de-caf? I was calm and explained that the Ford Escape does have what you claimed they did not.
    Forester can tow 3,500 lbs?? Don't want to get into a match about towing either.. If I wanted to tow I would buy a truck! Fact is though Escape has one of the best towing capacities in this segment...
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Fact is though Escape has one of the best towing capacities in this segment...

    Except for the Escape hybrid, which is rated to tow a measly 1000 pounds.

    Bob
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    In post 4607, you used caps (which is shouting) when you paraphrased what I said about skid plate, hence the de-caf comment. No biggie, it was meant in humor.

    -juice
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    zukimockzukimock Member Posts: 28
    Hi everyone,

    I gotta say that the Suzuki GV XL-7 04 (<-- this is my year ) is hands down the best overall SUV! It has the suspension, body structure and enough power for off-roading. It gets good MPG and has a fairly smooth ride. (What do you expect since it has a body on frame design for off-roading)

    The suspension is a 5-link and has a ladder frame.... can't beat that!!!
    It gets 20 mpg!!!
    The power might not be up to par with the Xterra, but it's all about the gearing if you wanna go off-roading.... that is what the lo 4wd is for!!!
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    jeep1988jeep1988 Member Posts: 40
    The problem with the escape, is, it is a Ford. Enough said. Of course, we have had our share of bad luck with Ford's and thus, will never buy one again. I would go with the Forester of the ones you looked at. However, you need to decide what you want. Off road-Jeep, bar none. All-wheel drive with fuel economy and ride, Forester. I get 22 mpg in the city with mine, I have 2006, and it has plenty of power, 173-hp and o-60 in about 8 seconds. Not bad for a 4-cyl.

    I cannot comment on the Santa Fe's and I have never driven one.

    The new Jeeps are much better than my 1997 Limited I had, the V-6 is plenty of power and not as bad on fuel as the thirsty V-8s. Good luck on your choices.
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    zukimockzukimock Member Posts: 28
    I have to agree with jeep1988 that Ford is a piece of doodoo.

    Also as for the Jeep and Forester, those are good choice depending on what you are looking for. However, I would recommend the Forester over the Jeep. I am sure that most of us here do not do any serious off roading, which neither can do well anyways. Most of us will use our vehicles for snow and rain, which is why the Forester would be the better choice. The AWD system is more suited for it and definitely get a lot better mileage, 22/29.

    I still consider the Suzuki Grand Vitara XL-7 the best of the bunch tho!!! :)
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    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,329
    i feel kind of disappointed that our '04 escape has had no problems in 18k miles. :surprise:
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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    zukimockzukimock Member Posts: 28
    Keyword: 18k :P
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I have 60K on my 01 Escape XLT 4WD V6 and no problems too! My wifes 04 Tribute ES V6 4WD now has 14K, no problems also. Kind of funny too how Consumer reports, MSN reliability reports rates the Escape as pretty doggone reliable? Gee, look at the last JD powers survey, Subaru doesn't score too well.... Hmm.. can we say stigma?? Fords are not as unreliable as some are lead to believe. Get the facts my friend. I have owned Ford products for years now and along with the other 3 Escape/Trib owners I know, they too have not had any issues.
    Forester over Jeep for what? I hope not offroading. You will twist that car frame on the Suburau far before the frame of the Jeep. Jeep and Xterra are your best choices for Offroading.. :shades:
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Every look above on this page at the Consumer ratings for the Escape? 20 reviews and the average still stands at 9.1??! Nope, Ford/Mazda cannot build a vehicle that people like right? :mad:
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    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,329
    18 months, 18k. everything is a-ok. my wife has not so good luck with her vehicles. this one has had the rear bumper fixed once and replaced once.
    other than that nothing has gone wrong.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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    p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    I will say that it seems that Ford has made great strides in the past couple of years to improve their product reliability (much like Hyundai has). After being consistent cellar dwellers in CR's reliability scoring, many Ford models are now rated as avg.

    -Frank
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    jeep1988jeep1988 Member Posts: 40
    Whoa there scape2, we are discussing cars, not a personal attack on a family member, so relax and have a beer or something. I have not had luck with the two Fords our family purchased a several years ago. Between the crappy transmission and customer service, they lost any respect I ever had for the car. Any vehicle can have lemons, I don't care what company it is, my experience with Ford was not a positive one. With that said Ford over the years has not been rated very high on reliabilty. Maybe now they are, but I have had my share of bad expereinces with them and thus, will never buy one again. Subaru is a very reliable car, maybe not for offroading, but for geneal everyday use and drivability, it is as every bit as good as a Toyota, Honda, or any other top rated vehicle. However, in the general public off roads on a regular basis anyway?

    I had my Grande Cherokee Limited for almost 9 years and it was a very good vehicle, but the gas milage was terrible. Thus, cost over the future years to have the "offroad" capability did out weigh the cost of gas. Also, at 125,000 miles, the little things were going wrong, not with the engine, but Quadra-Trac system, too expensive to repair for the worth of the vehicle. :surprise: :confuse:
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    zukimockzukimock Member Posts: 28
    First of all, it is not accurate to go by just one source to verify if a vehicle is good or not. Many magazines contradict one another.

    If the Escape is so darn good, why are there 8 recalls for them!

    As for my Subaru comment... read it again!!! I just said most of us here that buy these type of vehicles do not do any serious off roading. The Subaru has had one of the best AWD systems for years that work great in rain and snow!

    If you are going to go off roading, then the Xterra or Grand Vitara would be your choice. For you folks who are not familiar with the GV, it is built on a box ladder frame with a 5-link rear suspension.
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    zukimockzukimock Member Posts: 28
    Agreed.....
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Read the fine print, you looked at the score for Subaru as a brand, as a whole, not for the Forester specifically.

    Forester has made the top 3 in JD Power's IQ study multiple times, a list the Escape has never been on. Small SUVs that have made the list include the CR-V, RAV4, Element, Aztek, Santa Fe, and yes, the Forester.

    -juice
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    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,329
    recalls go like this; if you sell a lot of vehicles and a common part has a problem, you get a big recall. the recall may be something that only involves a small percentage of the group.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Actually, Escape is made in the USA. The engine is a Ford Duratec block.

    Mazda contributed on the design, sure, but Ford owns Mazda, so even that is debatable.

    -juice
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    A few name-calling posts have been removed. Let's keep it friendly folks.

    Steve, Host
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    zukimockzukimock Member Posts: 28
    You said in the title that the Escape is NOT a Ford, yet you just argued that it is??? :confuse:

    Anyways, FYI, Ford owns 1/3 of Mazda.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That was not me, that was another (new to this thread) user.

    Escape is very much a Ford, made in the USA, Duratec block and all. Both regular and hybrid models are made here.

    -juice
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    baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Anyways, FYI, Ford owns 1/3 of Mazda.

    It's actually a little more than a third and is enough, according to Japanese law, to be a controlling share. Ford does not own Mazda outright but they do call all of the shots for them.
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    suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    The matter of "controlling interest" under Japanese rules has come up before.
    IIRC, someone posted that 20% constitutes ci.
    What if one company holds 20%, another company holds 21%, another company holds 22%, etc, do they ALL have a "controlling interest?" How could that be? It doesn't add up.

    I'm nonplussed.
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    8 recalls.. when? and what for?
    Not asking this because I don't know.. I do. I am very well aware of the first year of Escape.. Now. do you know? Your post sounds like all 8 were this year? Also, how many recalls does the CRV have? or the Subaru? What years? How many total?
    Subaru didn't do so good in the last JD powers comparison.. does this make them completly undreliable now?
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I know my reply may have sounded harsh. I just get sick and tired of the constant Ford bashing. People don't look at facts before they jump. I have owned Fords all my life and never, ever have I had a problem so terrible it was to force me into another brand. This stigma of, if its a Ford, its will fall apart. Well, my last Ford went 101K, no issues. Mother and Father in-laws Taurus, over 150K.. I can go on and on in with the people, and family I know who have Ford products that are just fine. Granted, I know all are not perfect. Get out on the net. You will find peeved off Honda owners, Toyota owners, Subaru owners.. does this make them all unreliable, I don't belive so.. Reliability is way, way up across the board in all auto brands. The new buzz word in the auto industry is "refinement".. reliability is old news... I just cracked a beer... ;)
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    baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Got me. However I would assume that he who holds the most shares, rules.
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    zukimockzukimock Member Posts: 28
    I'm not saying that Honda, Toyota, etc. are perfect. All cars manufacturers have problems. I have also never owned a Ford, so I can't speak from any Ford experiences.

    However, my cousin had a Ford Taurus and he said a lot things went wrong and he would never buy another Ford again. I never asked exactly what were the problems, but I know the car overheated a lot and the interior seats had a lot of cracks. I also had a former co-worker who owned a Ford Escort which also broke down on the road and it had to be towed to a shop for repair. I regret I never asked either of them what exactly was wrong with their Fords but the Taurus was an early 90's model and the Escort was somewhere in the 90's.

    I've had personal experiences with a '94 & '98 Prelude, '95 Accord V6 and a '00 CR-V and have had no issues except for two things. One, '94 Prelude had a leak in the A/C which was easily fixed by the dealer under warranty and two, a creaking noise from the '98 Prelude's moon roof which I fixed by oiling every nut and bolt ;) .

    Anyways, I agree that Ford, Dodge and GM have greatly improved their cars and will not argue that their cars are dramatically better than before. I'm just relaying my experiences with everyone... (Wish I had a beer to crack... :P )
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