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1965 Mustang Value

cv3162cv3162 Posts: 4
Hey out there. I need a little help. I purchased a 1965 Mustang, 289 V8 automatic w/ps & pb. New paint job w/4-5 chips, new wheels, 290K on motor (however not sure right now if orginal motor) I don't have possession of it but paid TOP dollar for it on a USED car lot. 12.5K to be exact. And in doing my research a little late I discovered that I just may have paid TOO much and am quite upset about it. I also discovered that the right blinker doesn't operator and the there were no speakers for the radio (they said sounded great)... After 3 days of dinking around with these clowns at the dealership the day I THOUGHT I was bringing it home to my son saw white smoke coming out the tail pipe. Which they said was the distributor was misfiring. Others have said blown head gasket and/or carborator problems.. Anyways, I traded my 68 and only received 4k for mine! And you know what mine ran better after all the crap these guys put me through. At this time they still have the car. My pink was signed over to them but I have mine! Anyways, what do you think I could do? What is a fair price? For BOTH really. Knowing this is a 40 yr. old car doesn't the #'s matter for price as well? What can I do to get out of the contract if I can't make them bring the price down to a FAIR and REASONABLE cost. Please help. Thanks Cindi.
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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    It's hard to value a car without looking at it but offhand yes you may have paid too much by $4,000 more or less.

    This is really an issue for an attorney. I'm not one, but my opinion is that the only way you can break this contract is that if you can prove some kind of misrepresentation or fraud....otherwise "buyer beware" is the rule.

    A dealer can sell a car for whatever price he wants, as long as he doesn't misrepresent the merchandise as something it is not. If he/she TOLD you it was the original engine and it wasn't, or told you it was completely rebuilt last week and it wasn't, then you have something. But if they just said "nice car" and "runs like a top" that isn't misrepresentation, that's just "puffery" as they say---salesmanship.

    So my opinion is that you can't build a case just because the price was above market value. That was your job to know that. But you can build a case (perhaps) on misrepresentation.

    Of course, lawyers are expensive so you may wish to first visit your local District Attorney's office and see what they can offer you in terms of Consumer Protection Services of some sort. You may also consider Small Claims Court, but that often limits the amount of damage you can sue for, and I doubt it will be as high as the price of the car.

    Best thing to do is not panic, and get all your facts straight. If you accuse them of selling you a car with a bad head gasket and all it is, is a bad spark plug, then you're not going to look credible.

    At the very worst, you can stick with the car and fix it up. Prices are going up on these and maybe in a few years it will be worth what you paid for it.
  • cv3162cv3162 Posts: 4
    Thanks a lot for the reply. I am going to consider all avenues. I really don't think it's fair to take advantage of people like this. I really thought I could bring them down in price but they wouldn't budge. Then before you know it I'm signing the papers. How about the 68? What would be fair trade price for that one? Certainly not 4k. In this rip off of a case, 6k to them? Anyways, off to work. Thanks again for your advice and reply. Cindi.
  • burdawgburdawg Posts: 1,524
    A dealer has to almost always be the worst place to get a classic like this. They typically have little or no knowledge of the car, it's history or actual condition.
    Did you mean you traded a 68 Mustang? I would have kept it. I've owned both a 65 2+2 and a 69 Mach 1. In 65 a Mustang was basically (in most cases) a glorified Falcon. By 68 they were really starting to come into their own.
    Good luck getting satisfaction. You signed a contract and signed over your trade. I don't know what the laws are in the state you live in, but in most it's a legal and binding contract when signed. You may have a case if it was mis-represented, but you're probably going to need legal help to sort it all out.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,660
    one of my friends bought a 1966 Charger from some place down in Florida. It had a non-original 318 (the later wedge, not the earlier "wideblock" poly), and was advertised as "turn key". Well, it should have been "turn key at your own risk". I think he paid something like $8500 for it. And, well, it looked good in the pictures and the video they sent him!

    So, he had it delivered up here to Maryland, and it ran for about a week. I never even got to see the thing. It died, and my buddy took it to his mechanic, who went over it, and found that it basically needed a whole new engine. It had been run without antifreeze, and the cooling passages were all rusted/gunked up. It was springing leaks here and there. Needed a new radiator. Had sheetmetal rivited where the floorboards had been, and not too well, either. For a car that supposedly needed "nothing", I think this car ended up needing, in addition to a new engine and floorboards, about $3,000 in other odds and ends.

    My friend did manage to get them to take the car back, but it was a fight in doing so. It made the local newspapers around here, as well. In this case though, I think the puffery and "salesmanship" was borderline gross misrepresentation, so my buddy probably had a fairly good case.

    Oh, and at the same time as he bought the Charger, he also bought a 1973 or so Benz 450SL from them. I think it actually arrived before the Charger. It was in much better shape than the Charger, but then started having problems, and he unloaded it a couple years later for something like $7K, less than half of what he paid for it.
  • cv3162cv3162 Posts: 4
    Most definitely true. The owner of the business didn't know whether or not the car had matching numbers or if the engine had been rebuilt or not. I can't believe what happened tonight but for the 3-4 time in attempt to take possession of the car the car stalled and the blinkers still didn't work. The brake lights didn't work, the stereo went off at the touch of the brake and the most amusing was when I wanted to see whether or not the right blinker worked the left blinker on the dash lite up. In the end, the owner of the company is giving me full reimbursement and my 68 back. This has been a huge nightmare for me. My son took it like a man. I know I knew what I was talking about and didn't exactly have buyers remorse at all, I just wanted a fair market value for the purchase. I am taking the next few days off to unwind about this. And definitely next time I will do my research before hand. The odd thing is I was explaining to the dealer he shouldn't chg. full exc. condition prices for a classic car, I explainned too that dealers do not typical care to have classic cars on their lots because they do not profit from having them restored. It just takes someone who is passionate for making them beauties again and it takes pride in ownership as well ~ which the owner of this lot did not take pride in anything except trying to screw this women over. I raked him and questioned him and still couldn't get him to bring his cost down to a fair and reasonable price. In the end, I just caved and decided if anyone wanted something that bad they would pay the higher mark up. They have no remorse for screwing over people because they profit from it. I just surprised him and the rest of the employees there... I'm just glad it is over.
  • cv3162cv3162 Posts: 4
    FORTUNATELY, see other response with same regard, today was victory. The car on it's second test drive died and all electrical was still not functioning. The owner was in such disbelief and decided it was not meant to be and said he would reimburse all my money and give me back my 68. Please see the other response I made ~ it actually became humorious for a few seconds.... LOL. Take care. Cindi.
  • burdawgburdawg Posts: 1,524
    Good to hear that you got this resolved without any more trouble than that.
    Sales for classic Mustangs, just like many other makes, are rampant with fraud. A previous neighbor of mine bought what he thought was a 68 California Special, but I pointed out to him that the VIN was wrong and it was a regular model that had been modified. That happens a lot.
    You need to do your homework before jumping in to something like this. A car club is a good place to start, or even a car show. Here in Southern California there's huge Ford car shows every year and there's always hundreds of Mustangs, many for sale. Also, there's all the advice you would ever need.
    Even though I'm not into Mustangs anymore, my brother in law has a 64.5 first edition and he usually drags me along to a couple of shows a year.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    You are REALLY lucky to get out of this. The dealer probably could have stonewalled you for months...but maybe because the car misbehaved so badly he saw the handwriting on the wall.

    Had the car been running well and was just "overpriced", I doubt this happy ending would have occurred.

    Okay, next time let's do our homework!

    One thing you have to remember about '65 Mustangs, or the "early" Mustangs, is that so many of them have been all screwed up by previous owners---most of the coupes fell into the hands of people who paid little for them and thus could not take care of them---so over the years, they were passed hand to hand with one botch after another to the mechanicals. Very often the convertibles and fastbacks led a much happier life with appreciative owners, while the poor coupes ended up as junkyard dogs chained to a post.

    Some Typical Early Mustang Issues:

    1. Rust in the rear clip...the trunks rust out.

    2. Stretched timing chains...engine runs but is weak and sucks gas.

    3. Bad ball joints

    IMO, with an old Mustang, it's always better to buy one with a tight clean body and a few mechanical issues (they are so simple to fix) than any old coupe with questionable cosmetics....rust, bondo, etc., even if it runs well.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Great Northwest, West of the Cascades.Posts: 3,425
    You own a 65 Mustang 289 V8. Who can say what it's value is and if you paid too much. Don't know where you live, but chances are you are pretty close to a Mustang Club. You can start to locate such a club by going to www.mustang.org and they will refer you to your nearest club.

    Having owned a 66 Stang for over 40 years, one of the first things I recommend is you install a Pertronix Ignition in the distributor. It is the best thing I ever did to my Stang and my 302 Sea Ray. Each one of mine cost $59.95 and it took only a few minutes to install.

    Recommend you also subscribe to "Mustang Monthly" as it is worth the price for the knowledge you'll receive. "Mustang Times" is a publication of Mustang Club of America. Join that organization too, just for the magazine.

    http://motors.search.ebay.com/1966_Mustang_W0QQcatrefZC1QQfclZ3QQfromZR10QQfsooZ- 2QQfsopZ3QQsacatZ6236QQsamcmZ6001

    The above site will get you EBAY's sight for 66's, but you can modify that for the 65 when you get there.

    Cared for Vintage Mustangs are increasing in value all the time. I turned down 25k for mine last Summer. :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    It's pretty easy to determine the value of an early Mustang. There's a lot of good market information out there on these cars, to help people determine a fair price.

    Old cars don't increase in "value" unless you do something to them...if you leave them alone, all they are doing is increasing in "price", which is different. No value is added, so this increase in price is pure speculation and subject to collapse at any time.

    Having said that, if you buy, or own, the best quality, it will be most resistant to a drop in value (or price I mean).
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    I've never heard of a "Petronix Ignition" but I assume it replaces the points?

    Why would you feel that would be so important?

    My Mustangs always ran just find with the old points and condensors. I would change them once in awhile but that sure wasn't a big deal.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 49,624
    Yeah, that's an electronic ignition. I have electronic ignition in my fintail, and it is great...I put it in almost 6 years ago, and have never had to touch it. It was getting to be hard to find points for that old car, and I tired of having to clean and adjust them now and then.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    What's nice about the Pertronix is that you can keep the old points in the glovebox for when the electronic ignition goes south in Death Valley.

    I wouldn't do this to a K code Mustang though, as they use a special dual-point Mallory system and you should keep that stock.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    I liked my old cars to be as original as possible. At the car shows, I'm always attracted to cars that haven't been modified or "updated". I like them stock.

    If points caused problems I might feel differently but they really don't. I think one modification leads to another and pretty soon the cars can be pretty "mickey moused" up.

    But, that's me. I know others feel that modifications make the car better somehow.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    My rule is if you didn't drill, cut or weld, it's cool. Anything you bolt on, you can unbolt.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    I remember how they used to flare out the rear wheel openings on Corvettes. Now they look terrible that way.

    I know certain modifications make a car safer like seat belts and I have no problem with that.

    I don't like it when people convert drum brakes to discs and replace generators with alternators although I suppose they could be changed back.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    You can always tell if an early Mustang has been converted to alternator because there's still a "GEN" light on the instrument panel.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 49,624
    It may sound dumb, but I forget the name of the one I have in the fintail. It's not a pertronix...but it works fine anyway.

    It does have a generator too...I remember back when I was driving it daily, it was getting really fussy in damp weather...the MB specialist I knew said to get an electronic setup...and it solved the problem.

    I figure with the fintail, a little un-originality doesn't hurt, it's an unrestored 43 year old car. It's not a high dollar or demand car, nobody will notice...people rarely ask to see under the hood.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    That's right!

    I owned an early 1965. It was the 338th one built. It had the Oginianl Edition Mustang plaque on the dash with the owner's name. 260 V-8.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,660
    You can always tell if an early Mustang has been converted to alternator because there's still a "GEN" light on the instrument panel.

    Wow, Ford was really ahead of the curve there! I'm sure Pontiac converted to alternators eons before, but my '76 LeMans still has a light on it that says "GEN"! It also has this AC/DC-looking lightning bolt graphic on it. I think my '67 Catalina says "AMPS" though, although in that car it's a gauge and not an idiot light.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Mustang was a cheap car. They cut every corner possible.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,660
    Mustang was a cheap car. They cut every corner possible.

    So when the Mustang went to an alternator, what did they replace the GEN light with? AMPS? BATT? ALT? That's what I was getting at, that Ford would actually make the effort to CHANGE the GEN light as soon as they went to an alternator, whereas GM held onto the GEN well into the 70's!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    It says "ALT".

    I think Chrysler Corp. was first with the alternator in 1961, right? or 60? I ferget.

    The alternator was a good thing. Generators don't charge very well at slow idle, especially at night or with AC on.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,660
    Chrysler switched to alternators in 1961. Hey, would it be hard to convert something like my '57 DeSoto to an alternator? I've often wondered about that, but then, since I don't have to depend on it for daily transportation, it's probably not a big deal. I do remember though, how at night, especially stopped at a traffic light with the turn signal on, the needle would seem to drop precipitously low, in sync with the turn signal. Sometimes I'd drop it into neutral in such situations so it would rev a bit faster.

    Truthfully though, my '68 Dart would do the same thing, just not as bad. And sometimes, in the mornings, if I have the lights on and the heater/defrost going full blast, my '79 NYer's amp gauge will go just enough to the discharge side to make the idiot light come on. One thing that impresses me about that car is that, with all the cost cutting that went on in the late 70's, they actually went through the effort to make full gauges AND idiot lights standard on those cars. Of course, sometimes that can cause problems, like when the temp gauge reads normal but the idiot light comes on! At first I was worried about which one I should believe, until I noticed that sometimes the idiot light would come on at times when it couldn't possibly be too hot, like when first starting off. Oddly, my departed 1979 Newport occasionally did the same thing. So I guess that must make it a "feature" :P
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,600
    Chrysler introduced the alternator on the '60 Valiant, the first model year for that car. My family owned one. Great car, by the way.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    You're right. They were VERY cheap cars but they sure managed to hit the mark at the time.

    Nothing moe than a glorified Falcon!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    You are correct.

    The Falcon, Corvair and Valiants were the first of the new "Compact Cars".

    The Valiants were, by far, the best of that bunch!
  • fintailfintail Posts: 49,624
    On the electronic ignition idea...this is the kind I have in the fintail - several years later with virtually no problems, I am happy with it
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,600
    "The Valiants were, by far, the best of that bunch!"

    I agree, because in addition to the alternator, in place of a generator, the Valiant had an excellent 3-speed automatic, versus 2-speeds for the Falcon and Corvair, handled far better and was more rugged than the other two. The Corvair was interesting and the Falcon was a decent value, but the Valiant, while priced a little higher than the others, was worth the modest additional amount that it cost. Too bad none of the three offered a decent 4-speed manual (5-speeds came later even on European cars).
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    Tha alternator was no big deal but the whole car in general was much better. The slant six made the big difference along with the rugged torqueflight.

    The weakest part of those cars were the front ends. They were hard on ball joints and tie rod ends but so were the Falcons.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I agree, too. The Falcon, at least in its 6 cylinder, "three on the tree" configuration, could easily be serviced by a mechanic living in 1925. Nothing on that car would be alien to him, except perhaps the radio.

    The Corvair was the *potentially* most interesting and technically advanced car, but it was, and remained, seriously under-developed due to the usual GM habit of poking its own eyes out and complaining that it had been blinded by the government or foreigners.

    The Valiant was the first serious attempt to make a modern car in America for the world as it was then emerging--by that I mean the engineers got at least equal time with the stylists.
  • gardener3gardener3 Posts: 4
    I have a Mustang 65 I bought new, a long time ago. I had a refurbished engine put in and is in nice shape with several beige coats of paint. Often people ask if I want to sell it, but it isn't for sale.

    Don't feel bad about the price, fix it up and be happy with it, it's a great car. About the white smoke, I think it will disappear after it worms up. The engine is made for leaded gas and I don't know how much difference that makes?
    How much it is worth is hard to tell, you could pay a few thousand more or maybe less but it was set at the time of purchase. In a way it is like stocks on the market. :confuse:
  • My neighbor is giving me a 1965 mustang coupe for 500 dollars i dont really know if its worth it. The car has rust in the typical areas but pretty bad. It has the 289 and the floor pans are new. Is it worth it you think?
  • texasestexases Posts: 9,103
    Where is the rust? The whole body on these can go, it can be very expensive unless you like to do body work - do you? Was the cause of the floor pan rust (likely clogged drains or rusted out panels behind the dash) repaired? If not, the rust will return. Are critical areas, like the spring attachment points, rusty? Finally, these cars, even when completely restored, pose a high risk of passenger compartment fire in a rear end collision because the gas tank forms the floor of the trunk. Just so you know.
  • the frame is alright. interior is in good condition (no rust) and right now i am in an auto body class learning about this stuff. i believe he said the pans were replaced because of clogged drains. the guy who previously owned it put some new parts on it like the hood and new trunk lid and some other stuff. but do you think that its worth 500 dollars for it,for a project car.
  • texasestexases Posts: 9,103
    How's the engine/trans, and the front end? If it runs and can be driven, and you think you can do the body work, then $500 seems OK, as long as you know it'll be a lot of work and some $$ to get it right.
  • yeah everything on it is fine. but the guy has not started it up for about 2 or 3 months. thank you for helping me out.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Sure, it's a good simple car to learn on and you can always unload it when you're done. Just stay sober about your budget as you put labor and money into it. Once you've acquired the skills to to a full restoration, you might want to start with a car that isn't rusted. A GT coupe would be nice, 289 auto.
  • Converting to disc brakes is the smartest,best investment you can make to a Mustang. They don't stop for crap with drum brakes. I changed my fronts to disc brakes and it was the safest thing I did.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    Once again, I totally disagree.

    Yes, discs are better. No question about it. No argument there.

    But the drums work just fine too! I have owned at least four 1965-1966 Mustangs and a 1968. They all had drums and they all stopped just fine even under emergency situations.

    As long as things are up to snuff they are more than sufficient.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Great Northwest, West of the Cascades.Posts: 3,425
    Agree because at one time, we owned a 65 Fairlane 289 Sedan with drums in front while we also, and still have, owned a 66 Mustang GT with discs. Neither were power, but both worked very well. Drum brakes don't have warped rotors. ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    yeah but they get freaky in the rain and they will fade pretty fast. It kinda depends on how you drive the car, really.
  • texasestexases Posts: 9,103
    Case 1 - Drive in the country on nice days, parades, other low-demand use, drums OK
    Case 2 - Get one for junior to have a 'neat' car for school, drums no good.

    Drums were not so much of a problem when everyone had them, but now, with everyone else having discs/ABS, I'd hate to be driving drums when the guy in front of me stands on his brakes!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I think if I had power drum brakes with extra-grip linings and braided brake hoses and a 4-speed transmission I'd be okay...but manual brakes and an automatic mated to a V-8 and stock linings, I don't think so.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,225
    Again I have to disagree.

    YES, discs are better but they don't actually stop you THAT much faster.

    Yes, if you overheat them they will fade. It takes a LOT to make that happen however.

    Don't get me wrong. Given a choice I would rather have discs. To go to the trouble of changing a drum car to discs, it just wouldn't be worth it for me.

    I wouldn't drive an old car like I do my modern ones.
  • texasestexases Posts: 9,103
    Mustangs have two advantages - they're a dime-a-dozen (except for rare ones) and the kits to swap are common and fairly inexpensive. My old manual drum brakes 'Stang had fair brakes. Like I said, weekends, OK, heavy Dallas traffic, no fun.
  • I have a question since I am not very much into cars. My dad passed away and and in his estate which I am executor of he left a 1965 Ford Mustang amoung the three he owned. The cars are now out of probate, and I am being asked by the courts what a fair market value is for the vehicles. The other two were easy, but I am having a hard time finding out where to get information on the Mustang. Can anyone give me a good suggestion on where to get the information I need? Thanks...
  • texasestexases Posts: 9,103
    There are lots of places to see what people are asking (autotrader, cars.com, ebay), but the place I go to see what people are paying is ebay, get to 1965 Ford Mustang:
    Link to '65 Mustang
    Then click the 'completed listings' box on the left, then click 'show items'. Right now there are about 190 listings there. You need an ebay account to look at them. What options does your dad's Mustang have? What shape is it in? There's a huge variation, depending on these two things.
  • Okay thanks. That is at least a start. Unfortunately my brother decided back in 1976 to cut out the front dash and put in a pioneer stereo and the back dash to put in speakers. Needless to say he paid dearly for it and not in cash. Otherwise everything else is still original and when started it still runs smooth. Thanks for the leads.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    As texases said, there are huge variations in price depending on body style, condition, engine options, color, transmission etc.

    If you being asked by the courts, you'd best get an appraisal on it and submit that. If you are in California area I can point you to someone reliable.

    The problem with doing it yourself is that you could be way off and possibly not do yourself a service tax-wise, etc.

    BUT...if the courts will allow you to do it yourself, we can coach you to an accurate value if you give us the proper information in detail.

    First you have to GRADE the car, using this type of guide:

    http://manheimgold.com/value_faq.html

    THEN you have to list:

    body type (coupe, convertible, fastback)

    Then engine size (260 V8, 289 V8, 289V8w/271HP K code engine, or 6 cylinder engine)

    Then tranmission: automatic, 3-speed manual or 4-speed manual

    Then color

    Then whether there is rust or body damage

    With all that we could probably zero right in on it for you.
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