Doggone it tidester, that's my line! :0) It's exactly like the difference between renting and owning your own home.
I remember looking at a new JGC back in 97 when leasing had become the latest rage at the dealerships. Had some wet-behind-the-ears leasing rep (a kid) enthusiastically trying to talk me into leasing my next vehicle. He told me that by trading in my mint 93 and leasing a new one, he could put me into a brand new JGC equipped exactly like my 93 for $20/month less than what I was currently making in car payments. He would counter every argument I made that leasing wasn't for me... until I dropped your line above on him. It was like watching a balloon deflate.
Look, leasing may be practical for some people out there. For me it's not because I put on much more than 12K/year in mileage. Sure, you can tailor a lease for the amount of driving you do but have you ever looked at how much more this costs? Of all the people that've leased in the last 6 years, how many are satisfied that this was a good move and how many really got burned?
A typical lease runs three years. If you're unlucky enough to lease a problem vehicle, you're still stuck with it for three years. It's not easy to break a lease and can be quite costly if you do. And you have nothing to use towards the purchase or lease of the next one.
Granted, if you purchased a bad vehicle you'll end up taking a financial hit by trading or selling it earlier. At least you won't take as much as a lease hit and you should have some money coming out of it to put towards the next one. You can get out from under a purchased vehicle anytime you want to. That's a lot easier than having to break a lease.
Resale value is crappy on all vehicles today... purchased or leased. If I think I'm not getting enough in trade, then I can make the decision to drive it till it drops, wait/haggle for the best possible deal, or just take the hit and buy a new one. I'll get rid of it at a time of my choosing... not because my expiring lease is forcing me to.
Think about this... what advantage do you have when you walk into a dealership with an expiring lease and nothing else to deal with? You're totally at their mercy. They're like a pack of sharks smelling blood in the water.
The point I'm trying to make is that you buy a vehicle because you want to keep if for a long time with minimum hassle if possible. You are taking a huge chance in buying JGC. Whether you trade it in or sale it privately you will still get hit very hard in the pocket book unless you put a huge down payment. If you lease, you can enjoy the ride knowing that if there are problems you will not have any out of pocket expenses (other then lost time), your payment is less, and you can care less if there are problems down the road because three years later you can turn it in. Yes the depreciation is calculated in the lease price, but you don't have the headache of trying to sell it/ get rid of it. Oh, another thing, if you lease it and there are no problems with the vehicle you can choose to buy it, but when you lease you must first negotiate a good purchase price. You can argue pro/cons of leasing vs. buying till you are blue in the face. It may work for one but not for another. When I bought my JGC I did not have any confidence in driving the vehicle. My new SUV gives me the piece of mind that I need when I go on vacations--I bought this one as well.
I just have one question. How can you say when you buy a JGC you are more likely to get a bad one that a good one? You would have to know how many JGC's there are compared to how many lemons. Take a look back through these post's on this board and see how many people have owned two three or four JGC's. I know of many people who have owned several JGC's over the years and most with very few problems.
I'm mainly referring to 1999-2002 models. My "lemon" JGC knowledge is from obviously personal experience, my lawyer statement, my friend who was a mechanic for a dodge dealership (he started working there after I got rid of the JGC), and the service manager. I became pretty good friends with the service manager. Of course he would never admit to such a statement. The manager had a Wrangler with no problems at all. But his personal opinion is from the amount of JGC he has seen come in with the same problems--DC had no fix for numerous of them at that time (year 2000), he would not get one.
I won't argue with anyone whether leasing is better than buying. No one could win either side of this argument. That is a personal financial choice every individual must make for themselves. There are probably some good points in favor of leasing just as there are many against it. People who are in favor of leasing could say the same for buying. Like everyone else, I have an opinion on what works best for me and that's all I'm sharing with anyone. You can take it for whatever it's worth.
I buy a vehicle with the intention of keeping it long term. If it turns out to be a problem vehicle, I have more options on what to do with it than if I had leased it. I'm not "stuck" with it for 3 years and can get out from under it a lot cheaper than one I would've leased.
Yes, I put down a substantial down payment when I buy. How else am I going to keep my payments manageable? Would you care to compare monthly payments... mine vs your lease payments? Better yet, compare 3 year total cost of ownership vs your 3 year lease? Last but certainly not least... what each of us has left to show at the end of that 3 year period?
Nikiblue1, I don't have any more out of pocket expenses on the JGC I bought (vs a leased one) when something goes wrong. The same 3/36 and 7/100 warranties apply here. So I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make above.
With the volatility of the used vehicle market, how can anyone feel confident about negotiating a decent buyout price on their leased vehicle? Earlier leases had residual value seriously undervalued(?) by the leasing corporations, to the benefit of the consumer. That's not true today. When I buy, I don't worry about the headache of trying to get rid of it or trade it in down the road. At least I'm more in control of the final outcome than if it was an expiring lease... I'm in a position to bargain for the next one.
As for JGC reliability... I've said it a thousand times, it's no better or worse than anything else out there. Reliability is a subjective term. Of all the complaints you've read, how many were really for annoying things and how many actually led to catastrophic part failures or accidents?
I'm on my 4th JGC. I've owned a 93, 98, 99 and now an 02. Had relatively few problems with my 93. My 98 went back under the lemon law with no hassle from DC. They stood behind their product for me, so what more could I possibly expect from a manufacturer? My 99 had some of the minor problems people complained about and all were fixed under warranty to my satisfaction... again without any hassle. What more could I ask for there? So far, my 02 is running great and much quieter than my others were... plus it has more options than my 99 had and it's MSRP was $2K less than the 99 was. What's there to complain about on that?
My apologies for getting off topic... I realize there are more appropriate threads for this subject.
I just purchased a 96 JGC and very happy with it. The only thing I am worried about is the tires. They are wore down completely and are going to need replacing real soon. I am having trouble picking a tire. Has anyone had any experience with the BF Goodrich All Terrain T/A KO's? I like the way these look but am worried about road noise and how long they will last. I have also considered Michelin Cross Terrain and LTX M/S. I know the Michelins will be a better and quietier ride but I like the way the BF's look, and there cheaper. Does anyone have pictures of there JGC with BF's on there? What kind of tires do you all recommend that work well on Jeeps. This is my first jeep product and I don't know much about them. Thanks in advance any comments are appriciated Marty
Has anyone else out there had distributor and Cam sensor problems. My 2001 Grand Cherokee completly died in a remote area. Truck only has 16,500 miles on it. Dealer said it was a seized distributor and Cam Sensor. p.s. I must say Jeep 24 hour roadside assistance worked out pretty good.
I have had great success with Michelin LTX-AT tires on my JGC's. Very quiet on the road, great traction in snow and can't complain at all about treadwear. Had anywhere between 45-55K miles each on two Michelin equipped JGC's... never found out how long they lasted because I traded both vehicles before I wore them out! Yes, they're a little more than BFG's, but I thought it was money well spent.
Hey everyone, thank you for all the posts. I love the JGC, I think it's an excellent vehicle at a fair price, all the consumer reports/stories scare me but I agree with what all of you say - vehicles have problems, plain and simple. Even BMW's are recalled sometimes. Leasing isn't an option for me, my income is very limited and the JGC is at the top end of what I can afford as it is, so I'll definitely be buying. A few of my friends have leased and I fail to see how it makes any sense - one of them did a 5 year lease on a Chevy Tahoe - his total paid came out to be around $34,000 - for a few thousand more, he could have bought it. Some of the Japanese models are nice (I like the Pathfinder) but unforutnately I'm a very tall guy (6'4") and I don't fit in most of the Japanese or Compact SUV's. Thanks again for the info and the help. My current plan is to wait for the end of model year sales and jump on a deal (last year they were advertising JGC's in the paper for $8k off MSRP as they tried to get rid of the stock). Darion
First of all, GREAT POSTS by kkulig on this topic and also leasing/buying, dead accurate and well-stated all the way.
Nikiblue1: " built quality of JGC vs. other makes. I have a nissan, and two of my friends own fords SUV. Not a single problem with all three"
I also have a couple of friends, who have JGC's, and they have NOT had a single problem from day one - that proves that they are just as reliable as the Nissan and Fords then, right? And where do you get off commenting on "poor reliability for 1999-2002 models" when all you owned was a 2000? Show me some proof of ANY problems on a 2001 or 2002 worth mentioning.
Nikiblue1: "Go read Toyota LC, Nissan PF, Ford and other SUV messages, you will not find very many complaints. Yes, they will have some here and there, but not as much as for JGC"
WHAT boards are you reading? Toyota's have their share of problems, and the Explorers have so many you can't count them. The newly redesigned '02 model has been terribly problematic since the day it came out. Fit and finish is sub-par. Same with the new GM vehicles, pieces falling off of them before you take your first drive.
Everyone seems to rate the Jeeps on the one stand-out bad year they had - the redesign in 1999. The 2000-2002 JGC's have been incredibly reliable, much more so than most other SUV's out there in the current market.
About the only problems worth mentioning that Jeep has had the past couple years are the brakes - and a recent redesign of the brake pads and calipers appears to have solved that problem. Ask any Ford service manager how many Explorers come through their shop with warped rotors - "too many to count" will probably be their reply.
The newer JGC's are built much better these days, fit an finish far exceeds that of most other SUV manufacturers. And most of the problems that these other SUV's have are very annoying, things like water leaks, wind noise, weeping mirrors, sludge in the engines, poor fit and finish, rattles, sunroof leaks, doors that squeak, noisy engines, uncomfortable seating, and on and on. Awhile back someone counted up 40+ different problems on the new MDX. You don't find these kinds of problems in that quantity in the newer Jeeps. Go through some message boards and see how many problems you find on Jeeps that are NOT the 1999's. Too few to count, and certainly NO problems that make the vehicle inoperable and have to be towed to the garage like so many other brands.
I have owned 3 JGC's now, and I have NEVER had any of them in the shop for any repairs! You take your chances with any vehicle you buy, no matter who makes it, they all have their share of problems and Lemons. Look in the back of the April 2002 issue of Consumer Reports at the JGC reliabilty rankings and you will see "Better than average" red dots all over the chart for the last few years of the GC.
The JGC stomps the competition out there in not only looks but ride quality, handling, appearance, fit and finish, comfort, power, and of course off-road capabilty - and too many other positive features to list here.
My 2001 has been absolutely perfect. I know a lot of other owners who have 2001's and 2002's with zero problems. Jeep really has turned things around in reliabilty, while others who used to be reliable are now moving in the opposite direction.
I've already told my dealer to "put my order in" for the new 2004 JGC (coming out soon), and I look forward to buying another quality vehicle with, at a minimum, best-in-class performance and features!!
Hello tloke1, As I have previously mentioned you take a gamble. Yes, you are correct any vehicle can have a lemon. But as I said, even my lawyers stated he has a very high percentage of vehicles that he deals with are made by DC and he had numerous cases dealing directly with 1999, 2000 year JGC. Yes, I have only owned a 2000 JGC. I also have a couple friends that had 1999, 2001 JGC. The person who had 1999 JGC had problems with starter, power window problems, and paint pealing off. The person who had the 2001 model year with 6 cylinder did not have any mechanical problems other then running outside on the DAILY basis because the alarm kept going off--no there was nobody around trying to break in. And the dealer had replaced the alarm once. Still no correction. In re: power, gadgets, and off road capability. JGC is awesome. I loved that aspect of the SUV. (I have taken my JGC on a black diamond off road run--the JGC was awesome. I would not even want to try with my Nissan mainly due to lack of experience with off - road driving. But we are talking about reliability here.) Of course there is no comparison between JGC and Ford/Nissan. Toyota LC and JGC is another story--they are close. Personally I just did not want to deal with all the constant non-repairable problems that I had with my JGC. That is all that I'm saying. You are taking a greater gamble with JGC. I would not recommended this SUV to anybody considering purchasing a long term reliable vehicle. My opinion about leasing still stands. By the way I had two leaks in my jeep in two different places. This is just one of about 10-13 problems with my JGC. Now back to reliability issue. Here is the direct quote from consumer report. Yes, they have the red dots, but this is what they really think. "Aside from its powerful optional V8, the Grand Cherokee isn't terribly impressive. The standard in line six-cylinder engine is noisy and weak, and the automatic transmission it's mated to is neither smooth nor responsive. Versions with the V8 get a full-time 4WD system; a selectable system is available (but rare) on six-cylinder models. The Grand Cherokee's ride is unsettled, with constant side-to-side rocking on rough roads. Handling is secure though not nimble, with vague, imprecise steering. The cockpit is cramped, the front seats lack support, and the rear is tight. Where the Jeep still shines is in off-road excursions. A new-for-2002 Overland version gets a modified, 260-hp version of the V8 and a number of model-specific styling cues. Recently added options include side-curtain air bags and a tire-pressure monitoring system. Reliability has been consistently poor." (direct quote from Consumer report). Also edmunds review is not very flattering. "Noisy and unrefined, questionable reliability" (www.edmunds.com) The power and off road capability compliment is still there.
Gee, who really cares what Consumer Reports and Edmunds have to say about the JGC anyway? Hee hee. :0)
The proof's in the pudding, so to speak, and I've been happy with my ownership experience over the years.
Want to improve the ride and handling characteristics on a JGC? Then buy one with the Up-Country Suspension option... that will take care of most of the complaints in that department. The standard suspension is a real joke.
Note that Consumer Reports in their current auto issue for 2002 STILL uses the text from their 1999 JGC review!! So in the front they have a review several years old, but in the back, under the reliability charts the JGC shines in most all areas for 2000, 2001 and 2002.
As far as other brands being "so much more reliable" than Jeep? That's what I get tired of hearing all the time. As I said, Jeep has within the past couple years surpassed almost every other competitor out there. Todays Jeeps are remarkably reliable and have very few problems at all, they have made a total turn-around while the competition has slipped heavily...
For those who think that the competition is so much better, here is just a SMALL sampling of problems I pulled up on some other SUV's. This is not a complete list of course. I've had Jeeps for several years with no problems at all and I would sure hate to have to deal with some of these problems:
Acura MDX
Outside Mirrors - Continuous Water Drips After Washing Speakers - Rattle or Buzz Audio Unit - Buttons Stop Working Roof - Squeak Noise While Driving Over Bumps Second Row Seat - Does Not Recline/Fold Down Moonroof - Squeaks from Moonroof Seal Engine - Oil Leaks Body - excessive Wind noise
Just curious.. where did you get the info? I'd be very interested to review all those information. I think it would be helpful to all the readers if you list the web sites. This way people can compare all the makes and models.
To kkulig: My 2000 JGC Limited V8 had quadra drive, UP COUNTRY SUSPENSION, and all bells and whistles inside and out - fully loaded. It was beautiful! Too bad it was a $40000 piece of junk.
Oh, by the way, our other SUV besides the PF is a 2001 Ford Excursion 4x4 Limited - no problems still after 18000 miles. It's excellent at pulling toys and pretty good off- road! MPG is a different story!
TSB summaries can be found in the Edmunds Maintenance Guide as well as at alldata.com and the nhtsa.dot.gov site. Steve Host SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
The sources Steve listed are a good place to start...
I find it interesting that you traded in your JGC for.... a Pathfinder???? I think you took a step backwards as far as reliabilty goes. Here's a sampling of TSB's from the past couple of years:
A/C - New Leak Detector A/C - New Connections & O-Rings A/T - Oil Cooler Cleaning Procedure Brakes - Clunk/Pulsation/ABS Self Check Brakes - Noise Explanation Brakes - Noise/Judder/Feel Diagnosis & Repair Body - Repair Guidlines for Rust & Corrosion Cassette - Poor Sound Quality/Loss of Channel/Tape Jamed Drivers Seat - Will Not Move Forward or Back Engine - Piston Replacement Engine Controls - Hard Start Cold Temps/At High Altitude EVAP Vent Control Valve - DTC'S Stored in Memory EVAP Canister - Charcoal Leakage Interior - Dash Squeak/Rattle/Creak From Right Hand Side Interior - Squeak and Rattle Repair Supplies Lights - Plastic Lens Isopropyl Alcohol Caution MIL ON - DTC P0505 (Electronic Idle Control) Mirrors - Inside Rear View Mirror Is Loose or Falls Off PDI - Paint Guard Film Swell, Stains, and Spots Paint - Removal of Environmental Particles P/S Pump - Fluid Leaks at Fitting Seat Belt - Slow Retraction Squeak/Rattle Noise Steering - Vibration/Brake Pedal Pulsation Steering/Body - Vibration Between 60 & 70 Mph Steering/Suspension - Vehicle Pull Diagnosis Starting & Charging - Systems Description/Diagnostics Suspension - Strut Leak Guideline Steering/Suspension - Vehicle Pull Diagnosis Tailgate - Rear Hatch TCM - 1st to 2nd Gear Shift Flare Transfer Case - Won't Shift From 4WD to 2WD Transfer Case - Rumbling Noise From Companion Flange
I HAVE to ask you, after reading the above list do you really think that the Nissan's are MORE reliable than Jeeps? I hardly think so. Noise, rust, corrosion, leaks, paint problems, shift problems, squeaks, rattles, mirrors falling off, hard starting, clunks and so on HARDLY make for a "reliable" vehicle. These are annoying problems, MOST of which you will NOT find on Jeeps.
Oh, and "Brake pedal pulsation"?? What?, by what I have read on this board Jeep is the ONLY vehicle out there with warped rotors. Hmmm.
...AND, there are plenty of listings for Ford Excursions the past couple years as well. I'll make my point again, there are many more vehicles out there with a LOT more problems, and much more serious problems, than Jeeps. Is Jeep the best as far as reliabilty goes? NO, of course not. Are they the worst? NO, and in fact far from it. People just need to give credit where credit is due as Jeep has indeed come a long way to turn things around. Give them credit for that. Look what happened with the Explorer rollover situation and the problems with the brand new 2002 models - and I still hear people gloating about Explorers and trashing Jeeps. Amazing.
Finally, nikkiblue1, did you read the Edmunds review on the 1999.5 Pathfinder? As we all know, Jeep had a bad year in 1999 and by the looks of this review, Nissan had a much worse model at the same time, and the TSB list for the '99 PF seems endless. But I don't hear anyone trashing 1999 PF's (and the many other unreliable SUV's) like they do the Jeeps, I just don't get that.
the Jeep GC is one of the top selling vehicles out there. Are they as reliable as a Camry or Accord? No. But there are going to be alot more people with problems when they are selling 200,000+ vehicles per year. (i don't have my sales info with me so I'm guessing on the numbers). The JGC outsells the Nissan by a huge margin (4 to 1 or greater I believe) so there is by far going to be more problematic Jeeps out there. I see tons of complaints on most anything that sells huge quantities, even the ultra-reliable Camrys and Accords. The facts are, most all vehicles built today are pretty darn reliable. There are going to be lemons regardless, and when you're a top selling vehicle you're going to have more. And those people tend to voice there complaints 100 times more often than the typical driver that gets in his vehicle and puts 100K trouble free miles on it. I still believe in general the Toyotas and such are more reliable and have less "annoyance" type issues, but if they don't make a vehicle you want it doesn't do you much good.
And as far as what consumer reports says about the JGC, well who are they? Apparently the poor ride, side-to-side rocking, insecure handling, and vague steering is exactly what most people are looking for? Or are they comparing this to a car that can't tow, off-road, or get through severe weather conditions? I've driven plenty of SUV's and the ones that drive like cars aren't good for any utility functions. And compared to many others that can, the JGC does all of that better. Name another SUV in this class (both size and price) that has as strong of a motor that can off-road and has better handling, ride, & steering. Maybe when the new 4runner comes and that's what I'm waiting to see. And I've yet to drive a Toyota SUV that inspires much confidence in the handling/steering department.
I have a 2000 JGC and want to get XM. I could use the RF adapter and use the factory unit, but I'd kind of like to have an XM ready unit. Has anybody replaced their factory unit (I have the Infinity system) and kept a factory look? I could use a regular DIN style stereo, but I really want the dash looking as stock as possible.
Steve, it should be clear by now that any discussion regarding reliability of JGC made by tloke1 will only lead an endless amount of posts where he, tloke1, bashes other SUVs. Trying to prove ones SUV is better or more reliable then another by this method is just useless. A while back here many of us were pleading to get on to other topics that are of real importance. At that time the back and forth went on for days. Nikiblue1 is completely correct of course, and in quoting directly from consumer reports he showed that the truth is the JGC is not as reliable as tloke1 would have us believe. The opinion of one person verses the compiled matrix of many thousands by a major consumer magazine is what must be considered. Perhaps a new board titled "why my SUV is better then yours" by Tloke1 might help with the problem.
AS of now, I'm not aware of anyone making an XM ready stereo that is the GM/DC size. I swapped the factory unit with a Pioneer (non-XM) that's was made for DC size and it looks pretty good. Still not flush like a factory unit, but much closer and better looking than a single-din unit. I'd say just wait someone should be bringing the XM to the larger sized stereos. XM is just not rolling out in the factory units so there is a huge aftermarket waiting for good looking GM/DC replacements. Check crutchfield.com they'll have em as quick as anybody when they come out.
I am not bashing other SUV's in my posts, I am ONLY DEFENDING OTHER people BASHING Jeeps, do you not understand that gotothelight?
"and in quoting directly from consumer reports he showed that the truth is the JGC is not as reliable as tloke1 would have us believe"
IF you had read my posts, gotothelight, you would have noticed that I correctly stated that Consumer Reports has NOT updated their reliability comments on the Jeep since the 1999 model year. What you read in the front part of the listings refers ONLY to the 1999 model. IF you had read what I posted you would have also noticed that in the back where the reliability CHARTS are the JGC shines in reliability ratings, especially for 2001 and 2002. Even 2000 has plenty of "Better than average" dots. THAT'S what you should go by, the LATEST and most up-to-date ratings - and then compare with other brands in the same section.
"The opinion of one person verses the compiled matrix of many thousands by a major consumer magazine is what must be considered"
EXACTLY - isn't THAT what I said in my post, to LOOK at the CHARTS for the LATEST compilings??
I've NEVER said Jeeps were perfect, and I have never said that. What I am saying is that they are BETTER than what a lot of people on this board give them credit for. Everyone here takes a FEW examples and all of a sudden Jeep is one of the worst vehicles on the road.
And in my posts I have COMPLIMENTED many other SUV's. I have owned two Explorers in the past and loved them, they were 99% perfect in reliability. I have also owned a Chevrolet Trailblazer which I also enjoyed and was nearly problem-free.
I only compiled the list of problems from other SUV's because like many others I am tired of everyone saying how "perfect" they are. The list clearly shows that ALL brands have problems, like I have repeatedly stated. Gotothelight, I suppose you think I made up the Service Bulletin lists above? That was dead accurate info that will HELP a lot of potential future buyers or owners. Knowledge is power, IF it is accurate. I only posted that because the people on this board, like yourself, seem to thing that Jeep is the ONLY "unreliable" vehicle out there. My info proves otherwise, doesn't it?
Nikiblue1 complained about her Jeep and the reliabilty problems she had but then goes out and buys a Nissan that has been just as problematic, if not more so than the Jeeps. That's the part she left out - you see someone reading her posts will think ALL Jeeps are unreliable and that ALL Nissans are reliable. Is that fair?
I don't mind anyone saying negative things about Jeeps, IF they are TRUE, AND if they want to tell it like it is from BOTH sides.
So, gotothelight, WHEN have I EVER said that "My SUV" was "BETTER" than anyone else's? I have NEVER said that. NEVER. In fact I clearly have stated that Jeep "was NOT the best nor NOT the worst"...
If "gotothelight" had his way then no one on this board could reply and give their opinion. What should we do, gotothelight, just sit back and let one-sided and sometimes false information get posted all the time? Remember, this is a "discussion" board for Jeeps and I am simply giving my opinion and sharing my knowledge. I know a LOT of Jeep owners and do a LOT of research all the time so my statements are NOT just the opinion of "one person" as you carelessly stated. I have purchased over 30 brand new cars in the past 4 decades or so, and I have thousands of hours of mechanical experience working on all sorts of cars over the years - so I think I have enough expertise to comment on this and similar topics. I have also been a subscriber to Consumer Reports for nearly 30 years and have always stood behind 95% or more of what they claim or report. Every statement I have made here I will stand behind.
The biggest problem here is that people are recommending to others that they NOT buy a new Jeep, BASED on experiences or info from a model 3-4 years old!! These same people have NOT researched the CURRENT reliability, and so end up making FALSE statements that have no merit whatsoever. In fact some even recommend other brands that are WORSE reliability-wise! My point in my posts is to rightfully defend against those false and inaccurate statements and to tell it like it really is from BOTH sides. That is called being "FAIR" and that's all I have ever asked for.
If you guys are done pointing fingers at each other can we get back to civilly discussing the JGC? Please?
(We do have a "JGC problems" discussion linked in the left sidebar where you can learn all about real problems real owners have with their rides and what they did to fix them). Steve Host SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Thanks for the XM information. I did look at crutchfield.com and didn't see anything but a couple of Pioneers and jensens. I'm sure Pioneer will have something soon (perhaps December?). I SO love my XM that I want it now, but I really want the factory look as close as possible. Patience, little Grasshopper....
Actually, I believe there are many of us who side with tloke1. It is hard for us to understand the motivation of people who don't presently own a JGC to post endless messages regarding previous problems they have had on older models. We are more interested in hearing about the performance of the vehicles, interesting tales of adventures with the Jeeps, current service issues, add-ons and new features coming out.
My 2001 JGC Ltd. with V8 and Quadra Drive now has 24,000+ miles. As I previously posted, the only problem has been warped brakes replaced (along with the rotors) by the dealer at no cost at 14,000 miles (to be honest, my wife has another complaint... it's kind of unkempt inside). The Jeep is still running like new, and can't be beat in the snow.
By the way, I switched to Mobil 1 0W-30 and am changing the oil myself every 7,500 mi. I believe I could go further with no problems, but don't want to void the warrantee.
"It is hard for us to understand the motivation of people who don't presently own a JGC to post endless messages regarding previous problems they have had on older models... "
Livetodrive, I couldn't have summed it up better myself, perfectly said!!
On your brake problem, DC has (finally) just released new parts that appear will solve the long-overdue problems associated with the rotors and brakes. The TSB is number 05-00-302 and was issued last month.
As far as future models and new features, there are some great things coming in the new JGC's. The 2003 models have very few changes but will only be produced for a few months. The new 2004 models will be introduced early, this coming January, with a slightly redesigned front end and interior and some nice electronic improvements in audio, NAV and cellular.
Gee, I missed some great posts here in the last few days!
I totally agree with what sebring95, livetodrive, and especially tloke1 had to say. I too get extremely tired of all the Jeep bashing that goes on out here. It's refreshing to actually hear other people say something positive about the JGC and at the same time, temper those statements with the realism that like every other vehicle, the JGC isn't perfect either. That still doesn't stop them from liking or driving one. I respect those kinds of opinions more than any other. They're totally honest statements. Tloke1, you truly have my respect!
We are all entitled to our opinion and many of us like to share our knowledge with other JGC owners, or potential owners. Many people come here and get turned off on the JGC because of the amount of complaining done by a handful of people with very biased opinions. That's not entirely fair. I do realize that these people have had bad experiences with JGC and they have a right to post their thoughts. I certainly won't deny them that. Hey, I've had one go back under the lemon law, remember?
For the first time in a long time I'm starting to see some balance come into these threads. To me, it's refreshing and makes the whole thing more meaningful to be able to read some good with the bad. This has been sorely lacking in the majority of Edmunds discussions and should be encouraged as much as possible.
We all need to remember that to truly help others with vehicle problems or choices, we need to be frank, honest and realistic in what we say out here. We should be able to state the positives as well as the negatives when talking about our vehicles, right? Some of us do, many do not. If you can't do this, who are you really helping out here? The people who come here for info are expecting that from us. I strive for this whenever I interject my "2 cents worth" into a discussion. I try to listen to and understand all viewpoints and to give the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. Yes, I can be as passionate on a subject as well as anyone else. But I also try to be understanding of both sides of the issue... and both sides should get equal "air time" out here.
Steve... I understand that there are threads running specifically for JGC problems. This thread is simply titled "Jeep Grand Cherokee" so my assumption is that any topic can be discussed here. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see how anything could be "off topic" in this particular thread.
The boards naturally tend to wander around quite a bit and that's fine. But if you have a specific problem with your ride, chances are you are going to find more answers (or commiseration) in the "Problems" topics.
Nice post - guess it's human nature to gripe more than "discuss" at times. Steve Host SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Toyota, Nissan or Honda SUV Problem discussion? Could it be that they are just better made vehicles than the JGC and don't have as many owners with problems. Some have said that every type of vehicle has its share of problems and while that's true, it is the % that is important. It seems to be alot higher with the JGC than with other SUV's. Well the Explorer and GM products are not much better. That's why I recently switched. I used to be an owner of nothing but American made cars. I just got tired of getting half the miles that my friends got on their Japanese big 3 made vehicles.
"(problems) seem to be alot higher with the JGC than with other SUV's"
Bigorange30, what sources do you base your claim on? Are you talking about the 1999 JGC models like everyone else? I think the 2001 and 2002 JGC are JUST as reliable as the 2001/2002 Toyota's and Honda's. Hardly any problems at all with the newer Jeeps, and they are now in the TOP 2-3 reliable SUV brands, no doubt about it, far ahead of MOST SUV vehicles. Note that a LOT of manufacturers who used to be reliable in the past have slipped a notch or two in that area, so don't go by what you read years and years ago.
If you get a chance to stop by a Jeep dealer in the near future check out the 2002 Grand Cherokees - take a close look at fit and finish, from front to back, inside and out, and then compare with some other brands. You'll find these new JGC's far ahead of most of their competitors.
You need to take a look and study some of the message boards covering the other brands, and not just the ones on Edmunds, before you come to any conclusions about the JGC being "worse than other SUV's". You'll find plenty of problems on EVERY single brand out there, including the Japanese vehicles, and some of these problems are a lot more annoying than what you might find in Jeeps.
Nissan is another story and in my opinion should NOT be grouped in the same "reliable" category as Toyota and Honda. Take a look at the TSB list I posted a couple pages back and then tell me how reliable you still think they are. They are clearly WORSE than Jeep Grand Cherokees!
I have had a Jeep Wrangler for 10 years now and it has given me tons of enjoyment both off-road and on. I'm seriously considering upgrading to a 1999 Grand Cherokee. 2WD straight 6 4.0 liter with 28,000 miles on it. It's spotless inside and out. I had a mechanic friend look it over and he says it seems fine and well taken care of. I have friends with Cherokees and have never heard the degree of complaints I get from some of the message boards I've visited. Can someone please give me some honest, unbiased thoughts and advice on the JGC. The price I'm looking at is $15,000 and I've driven this vehicle many times at various speed and conditions. I'm just having a hard time believing some of these nightmare stories I read regarding the JGC. I understand no vehicle is without problems and some of these complaints have got to be legit...but my god..is it this bad? Is there no positive side to this vehicle? As I said I am a Wrangler owner and aside from normal problems that go wrong with a vehicle as old as mine, I can't complain. And there is no denying Jeep's capabilities off road. Someone please help me! Are there any SATISFIED JGC owners out there on these message boards??!! Thanks.
are my main sources. Please post a source if you have one that disputes what I am saying. I saw your TSB list but haven't experienced any of that yet. The Pathfinder continues to get very good marks. You can't say anything yet about 2002's of any kind and you can only tell about 2001's if it is REALLY bad. Therefore, you can't claim that the 2002 JGC's are better than their ancestors because you have no way of knowing that yet unless there are 10,000 of them with >60,000 miles on them. Why should I believe that DC just woke up in 2002 and all of a sudden took a giant leap to first place in reliability? It just doesn't happen that way. Talk to me in 5 years about my QX4 and I will be interested to hear how good that JGC is in 5 years.
BigOrange30, Yes in fact, I do have a source that disputes what you are saying - YOUR SOURCE!!! Page 84, Consumer Reports Annual Auto issue April 2002:
Consumer Reports Jeep Grand Cherokee Reliabilty Summary - "100"= highest possible score:
Jeep has nearly tripled their rating improvement since 1994 and has nearly doubled it since 1999. 92.8% is an incredibly high rating, far ahead of a good majority of other vehicles out there. My guess is that the 2002 models will come in around 96% or better.
2000 Grand Cherokee: "Red dots" (above average) in almost every single category. The ONLY "below average rating is for the brakes. 6 of the 14 categories received the highest rating for reliability. 5 more categories received "Above average".
2001 Grand Cherokee: "Red dots" in ALL 14 CATEGORIES! HIGHEST rating (full dot) in 10 of the categories! Above average in the other 4. Almost a PERFECT possible score from top to bottom!
So your statement about "DC just waking up in 2002 to take a giant leap in reliability" is totally without merit, and even more surprising is that you are making that inaccurate statement based on one of your own sources, Consumer Reports. It's apparent that you didn't even read or study the reliabilty charts! Furthermore, WHO said anything about the Jeep being in "First Place" in reliability? I have certainly NEVER made that claim in any of my posts, NEVER. Please try to be more accurate when you make statements like this.
And yes, I can comment about 2002 reliabilty. The JGC's have been out almost a year, with some owners already breaking 20,000+ miles. Vehicles that are typically repair-prone are not just perfect for the first couple years and then fall apart - they will exhibit lots of early problems and quirks during that first year. Owners of 2002s report almost 0 problems. But again, the proof is in the charts for the last 8 years. That is a very good indication of where Jeep has been and where they are going.
The bottom line:
For the most recent ratings year, 2001, Consumer Reports has given the JGC ITS HIGHEST RATING IN 11 OF THE 14 CATEGORIES AND 2ND HIGHEST IN THE OTHER 3. The QX4 was rated only SLIGHTLY higher for 2001. Note that in the past Nissan has had tons of reliabilty problems, so don't go bragging yet how well your QX4 will hold up in the years ahead as the QX4 has NO BETTER odds of being any more reliable in the future than the JGC.
If you've been reading through these posts, you'll find quite a few honest, unbiased opinions on the JGC. There are many satisfied JGC owner's out there... including me, even after I had one go back under the lemon law. Unfortunately, you need to remember that it's human nature to complain about something a lot more than it is to praise something. And you have to take what you read with a grain of salt sometimes.
Let's be realistic about some of these "nightmare" problems you've read about, and what the real definition of the term reliability is...
The major complaint always seem to center around warped brake rotors. I don't know about you, but I don't consider that to be a major problem and it's something that's very easy to fix once and for all with a decent set of aftermarket rotors.
With a 4WD system there are going to be complaints of drivetrain noise, vibration, etc. No doubt, the JGC has had its share of these problems. DC's been replacing driveshafts, differentials, etc. At least the 93-98 transmission failures seem to be a thing of the past now. My 99 was somewhat noisy, but hey, this is a 4WD and more of a truck than a car so some noise is to be expected. You can't compare any SUV to the way a car feels and sounds and it makes me wonder how many people are really doing this when they complain. The only thing I had replaced on my 99 was a driveshaft (for the bump-stop problem). I had 46K reliable miles on my 99 when I traded it for my 02... which by the way, is a much quieter vehicle.
I've also heard people complaining of a crank position sensor problem on the I6 engine. I have yet to hear anyone complain about the 4.7L V8 engine. It's been extremely reliable... quite possibly DC's best engine to date. Notice how no one talks about this engine because there's been nothing to complain about?
I've owned a 93, 98 (lemon), 99 and now an 02. Outside of a major vibration problem my dealer made several serious attempts to fix on my 98, I've been extrremely happy with the other 3. Yes, I've had some of the problems that others complained about on these model years but never anything my dealer wasn't able to fix. That's part of the "joy" of owning a vehicle. Notice I said "a" vehicle?
I'm not trying to make light of the things people have complained about in these threads, or that they aren't legitimate complaints. Nor am I defending DC or any other manufacturer or car dealership for their actions (or lack thereof). You spend that kind of money on a vehicle, you "expect" it to be near perfect. But, nobody builds that elusively "perfect" vehicle and I doubt if we'll ever see one in our lifetime. Most complaints are for the irritating/annoying problems... not things that have led to catastrophic part failures or left you stranded in the middle of nowhere. Even with JGC's faults, it still dependably gets you where you need to go (on or off-road). To me, that's the REAL definition of reliability.
I also wonder how many of the "bad" JGC ownership experiences are compounded by poor dealership service? No matter what vehicle you buy, it's going to have problems and need repair sooner or later. If you're taking it to an incompetent dealer, how is that going to affect your overall impression of the vehicle? Buying a vehicle from a reputable dealer is every bit (if not more) important than the make of vehicle you're buying. Anyone can sell a vehicle... only the good ones know how to service them. That's what brings me back to buy another.
You also need to work with the service department to solve a problem. Ragging on the service department makes no sense. They didn't build your vehicle but they're the poor slobs who're going to try to fix it for you. Why would you want to PO the people who're trying to fix your vehicle? That certainly doesn't inspire any desire on their part to make a serious attempt to find and fix the problem. Yet many people do this and contribute to their own bad vehicle ownership experience. You can read this between the lines in several posts out here. I don't feel sorry for these people either.
You say you've owned a Wrangler for 10 years and you've enjoyed it both on and off-road. Buying any vehicle is a crapshoot as far as getting a good one or a bad one goes. If you're really worried about quality or reliability, go out and buy an extended warranty for the peace of mind. Just remember, it's your money so buy what turns you on and enjoy it! You don't need to worry about what anyone thinks or says. For the number of JGC's on the road, I believe there are many more satisfied owners out there than these message boards lead you to believe.
I'm a little curious... after owning a Wrangler, why are you looking to step down to a 2WD vehicle? ;0)
but all I remember is that the QX4 was named the most reliable vehicle on the road. That's not the most reliable SUV but the most reliable of ALL vehicles. I do not specifically remember JGC's exact rating so I am not going to dispute what you say but am recalling their past performance. They need to demonstrate several years in a row of reliability for me to buy one. I also see initial quality and long term reliability as a manufacturer trait not a specific model trait. It might be separable by manufacturing site since different site management might have different philosophies on quality. I say all that to demonstrate that you have to look at DC's entire line of cars and their reliability. It is probably just a coincidence that the JGC is more reliable than the Ram or the Sebring or the Caravan. Are they gonna use more reliable parts or use a different assembly philosophy on one vehicle versus the other? I don't think so. Now, you might argue that a luxury version of the same vehicle (QX4 vs. Pathfinder) could be more reliable although I am not doing that here. The JGC may have improved in reliability but unless all others from DC are also improving, then it is probably an aberration. It is true that service is a key part of the owner satisfaction equation. I do like the loaners and personal attention I get at Infiniti.
Are you going to tow anything? My v8 hauls my 16' runabout effortlessly. Will you go off road? The 4 wheel drive option would be really handy, especially with rough terrain or in bad winter weather. Are you skittish about first year makes? The Grand Cherokee was first made in 1993 and completely redesigned in the 1999 model year. Did you compare prices on Edmund's or Kelly Blue Book? Get a reasonable idea of what you might pay for the model & options you're looking for at these sites. Carfax.com may help provide valuable information for a fee.
The gear whine issue has been covered extensively on this board. Most people report this problem with the 4 wheel drive systems. I don't recall anyone mentioning gear whine with a 2 WD system.
For what it's worth, my '02 JGC Ltd. has 8500 miles and runs like a charm. My '01 was traded in because of continuing electrical and drivetrain problems. A family friend purchased my '93 Laredo and it's still going strong.
Gather information from as many sources as possible. You need to be the judge of their credibility. Then, if the vehicle fits your needs, wants, and pocketbook, go for it chrisg6.
When I had trouble with my '01, I wanted everyone on this board to know exactly what was happening. I experienced a combination of poor service and a unique, poorly made vehicle. I have not generalized my experience to all other Jeep GC vehicles & owners. There is no way I, or anyone else, can fairly make such a generalization. Tons of valuable information about owning a Jeep can be found through the posts here. The valuable posts have specific information and clear, thoughtful replies. Look back at the NAMES of those making posts. It is shameful for anyone to make off the wall comments without backing. You can tell which posts are worth reading and which should be entirely ignored.
I find that the 2002 JGC get the worst reliability rating that can be given. It got a solid black circle meaning that more than 14.8% of owners have reported problems. They had almost twice as many owners reporting problems than the average mid-size SUV (a -91% comparison rating). That was the worst of all the SUV's in that category. Please show us where you get your information tloke. It's certainly not Consumer Reports.
As far as CS magazine stating the QX4 was the "most reliable of ALL vehicles" that claim I could not find anywhere, and it's really not true. In fact, several cars are rated above the highly rated QX4, Chrysler's PT Cruiser is among them (it had a perfect rating by the way, 14 out of 14 full red dots).
Quote from Bigorange: "but unless all others from DC are also improving, then it is probably an aberration"
I thought the topic here was the reliabilty issues of the Grand Cherokee. But now you're saying that if DC has other problematic vehicles then that will affect the Grand Cherokee's reliabilty after the "aberration" is over. And you are also saying how bad all DC vehicles are. While so very true that DC has had more than their share of unreliability for the past decade,they have made continual and astonishing gains in this area, and for the last couple of years have brought all those "black dots" to "red dots".
The April 2002 issue of CR (starting on page 81) lists a grand total of 26 different DC models in their used cars reliability charts index. Did you know that of all those models listed, and comparing the last two model years of 2000 and 2001, that there is a total of TWO, and ONLY two "black dots"!! - and even they are the "1/2 dots". That means in total for DC, 362 out of 364 category boxes had "red dots". Not too shabby.
As mentioned, the PT Cruiser was perfect. The 300M matched equally to and almost exactly the same as the QX4. The ONLY black dot for the Caravan in the past 4 years was for "brakes". You can clearly see in the charts where all DC vehicles have gone from a lot of "black dots" in the early to mid 1990s to almost all "red dots" across the board for EVERY vehicle. Sure, for DC there is room for improvement, but they have come a long, long way and are now rated well above average for most of their vehicles. Give them a lot of credit for that. Meanwhile, other auto companies, and not only domestic ones, have let their reliabilty ratings side downward, some below DC. Look what has happened to Ford recently.
Quote from Bigorange: "I do like the loaners and personal attention I get at Infiniti"
I would hope so. If I paid $6,000 extra for a "QX4" Pathfinder name badge, I'd expect nothing less. I've always received that same premium level of treatment at my Jeep dealer. In fact, they are the best dealers that I have ever worked with. The truth is, overall you will spend far more on maintenance for your QX4 than I will for my Jeep. In other words, due to the premium over-pricing you'll be experiencing at Infiniti, in 5 years you will have spent a lot more maintaining your QX4 than I will for my Jeep.
Bigorange, since you threw away your April issue of Consumer Reports before you finished reading it, I should mention one of the comments they made about the 2002 QX4: "Ride quality quickly deteriorates with passengers aboard and handling is secure but unimpressive". You could have saved a lot of money by buying the Pathfinder, which CS gives better handling marks for. You bought outstanding reliabilty, no argument there. The question is whether the trade-off is worth it. The QX4 is rated poorly for "off-road" use, but that also covers driving over the mountains, gravel and rocky roads, potholes, construction sites etc., things you may run into outside of those trips to the mall. And even to the mall if you add passengers or cargo you'll bottom-out along the way. And don't head into the country or back woods with the Infiniti, chances are a Jeep will have to tow you out of the mud somewhere.
Quote from Bigorange: "Please show us where you get your information tloke. It's certainly not Consumer Report."
I already clearly mentioned that information: April, 2002. "Reliabilty History Charts" for used cars. 14-pages, starts on page 76, ends on page 89. "Jeep Grand Cherokee" is shown on page 84, lower left corner. ALL red dots for 2001. I'm sure there are other readers out there than can verify this. Librarys keep copies on file. The "black dot" you are referring to is an old report for "predicted reliabilty". CS has not yet rated 2002 models for reliabilty anywhere that I can find, that info will be published in the April, 2003 issue. Don't forget that the point I have been defending here all along is NOT that the Jeep is "incredibly reliable" and "never has problems", BUT that the Jeep has steadily and noticeably improved during the past 8 years from "terrible" to the current "well above average". There is a reason the Jeep is the second-best selling SUV in America, it's truly wonderful vehicle. So much so it outsells the QX4 by a factor of more than 10-1. There's a reason tens of thousands of people buy Jeeps each and every month, "There's only one".
Aside from its powerful optional V8, the Grand Cherokee isn't terribly impressive. The standard inline six-cylinder engine is noisy and weak, and the automatic transmission it's mated to is neither smooth nor responsive. Versions with the V8 get a full-time 4WD system; a selectable system is available (but rare) on six-cylinder models. The Grand Cherokee's ride is unsettled, with constant side-to-side rocking on rough roads. Handling is secure though not nimble, with vague, imprecise steering. The cockpit is cramped, the front seats lack support, and the rear is tight. Where the Jeep still shines is in off-road excursions. A new-for-2002 Overland version gets a modified, 260-hp version of the V8 and a number of model-specific styling cues. Recently added options include side-curtain air bags and a tire-pressure monitoring system. Reliability has been consistently poor."
You ask why there are no problem groups for Toyota, Nissan, or Honda SUV's. My guess is there isn't enough posters on these boards to warrant starting a post. According to may sales numbers, Toyota sold a little less than half as many 4runners and Nissan sold 1/3 as many Pathfinders. Again I'm guessing, but when there are 3 times as many vehicles out there, there are probably 3 times as many people coming to these forums looking for info. I've been following the 4runner forum because the '03 is on my list. There are problems in that group just like this one. FWIW, there is a Tacoma problem group and the Tacoma is very similar to the 4runner. But there are alot more Tacomas on the road so maybe that warrants a seperate group for problems. I've owned plenty of Toyotas over the years and they are great vehicles but I'm hardling scared of a JGC. I've had Toyotas that went 200K without a glitch, and I've had a couple that had littly annoying things that are even more aggrivating when you spend more $$ and are used to rock-solid vehicles. It's all a crap-shoot anymore.
If the JGC is as disappointing as CR makes it out to be, why on earth do people buy them? Maybe those are the characteristics everyone likes. What does CR say about the other SUV's? I've been in and out of just about every SUV on the market and the JGC is no-different and certainly no worse than anything out there that has any characteristics of being an SUV. I stopped reading CR years ago because when they get something up thier butt they just never stop. They call the "standard" engine noisey and weak. I wonder what they thought of the "standard" 4cyl Toyota put in the 4runner years ago. I'll bet it was "rather smooth and economically slow". At least you have a choice for a larger motor. A 4.7L will outwork any of these high HP V6's the competition uses. The '03 4Runner has a V8 with less HP than the V6 they are offering. That should confuse the heck out of the average dum-dum.
My company library still has the April issue. It does have the red circles for the JGC for MY2001. The problem is that tloke doesn't know how to read these. The 4 half red cirlces shown for the JGC on brakes, body integrity, power equipment, body hardware and the black check (average reliability) become black circles and no check as the vehicle gets older. Only a few midsized SUVs have even hollow black circles (Mercedes M-class, BMW X-5 and Xterra). The 4Runner, Pathfinder and the RX300 have ALL solid red circles. The QX4 has 1 half red circle for power equipment but remember that it is pretty much like the Pathfinder. Now please turn to page 74 where the JGC is listed as a Used Car Reliability Risk. On page 50 it gets a solid black circle for reliability and a half black circle for satisfaction. I don't find the scores that tloke posted in #1181. I'm sure it will check out like his other information did (NOT). The bottom line is that the scores will get worse as the vehicle gets older. People don't buy JGC's for their reliability because they know they can expect problems. They buy them because they like the looks, they are a good off-road vehicle and the initial price is lower. However, if you check comparably equipped JGCs vs. QX4 on Edmunds "Total Cost of Ownership" you will find the JGC is actually higher because it depreciates faster and repair costs are higher.
The only JGC that has a higher cost of ownership is the Overland. The limited is optioned closer to the Q although is has a V8 over the Q's 6. The JGC ltd is $6837 less upfront (with rebate) and $2505 cheaper over 5 years. Although I don't know if I believe many of the numbers edmunds uses, but you seem comfortable with them. And to be totally anal, the repair costs of the JGC are cheaper than the Q. But I can tell by looking that these numbers aren't very reliable and are broad estimates.
I worked for a major corp. several years ago and spent alot of time with the vehicle fleet department. Initially I thought we could save money in the long-run by buying imports. The only way it would have worked is if we could have been nearly guaranteed hitting 200K withour a major repair. Alot can happen that last year in-service and if 10% needed major repairs during that period it would have blown the whole savings. We were better off to turn the fleet quicker.
FWIW: I had an issue with rear end whine/growl on a '99 JGCL 2WD. From the repair order: Growl sound and bad diff bearing. Necessary to replace fron and rear pinion bearings and both side carrier bearings. I will omit the long list of parts.. Repaired under warranty. Traded soon after for '00 JGCL that is pretty much identical to the '99. Replaced the warped front rotors (5 star dealer refused to cover them at 14,000 miles), power window motors, etc. But the '00 has been better than the '99 so far. Not sure if I would recommend a Jeep unless you opt for the extended warranty.
The Overland was the one I was comparing to. The stuff the Q has that the JGC Ltd. does not includes:
Xenon HID headlights tinted rear glass running boards side air-bags front independent suspension overhead console auto retracting antenna
Admittedly, the JGC has a bigger engine. The "cost to own" were almost exactly the same on the limited ($43,489) vs. the Q ($44,079) over 5 years. The JGC does go off-road better but as much as it breaks down, I'll take the Q.
I'm glad to finally agree with me, Bigorange30...but before you post additional information you should double-check your facts. You have been consistantly wrong in your posts and you have a knack of twisting information around.
Your list of "The stuff the Q has that the JGC Ltd. does not includes" is incorrect.
The Limited/Overland HAS: Side Air Bags (optional, standard on Overland) The Limited/Overland HAS: Tinted Rear Glass (standard) The Limited/Overland HAS: Overhead Console (standard, includes HomeLink Garage Door Opener system)
The QX4 Does NOT HAVE available:
Tire Pressure Monitor System Adjustable Pedals Rain Sense Wipers Up-Country Suspension Electroluminescent white-face gauges Infra-red dual zone air conditioning w/optional Air Filtration system Memory systems for seats, mirrors, pedals, radio etc. Skid Plate Group 5-Speed Transmission 17" wheels Standard
The QX4 REQUIRES Premium fuel, the Grand Cherokee Does not.
BigOrange, in your post above you state "Total Cost of Ownership you will find the JGC is actually higher because it depreciates faster and repair costs are higher..." BUT IN YOUR VERY NEXT POST YOU STATE: "The "cost to own" were almost exactly the same on the limited ($43,489) vs. the Q ($44,079) over 5 years". Which is it? Higher? Lower? Will it be different when you post tomorrow?
BigOrange, here's a tip - if you remove the spare tire to reduce weight on the suspension you might be able to haul a passenger without bottoming out.
Your credibility is fading fast with me and I'm sure a lot of others on this board. By the way, Consumer Reports gives the QX4 and the Grand Cherokee the SAME "Average" marks for Depreciation, contradictory to your claim that "the Grand Cherokee depreciates faster."
I just replaced my factory system with an Eclipse and with wire harness, and dash kits the new deck is very flush with the clean factory look and does not protrude. If I had a digicam I would snap a photo and paste it in here.
I dont have the XM Satellite radio and am not familar with them. What is it about this unit that will make the factory look disappear and the device look obtrusive ?
tloke: you did not read all of my post (like you didn't do with CR). I said that the Overland was what I was comparing to. It is higher in "Total Cost to Own". The Limited is what sebring95 thought I should compare to so that's why the next comparison changed. Your correction was not right either. From the Jeep website:
side air bags are $490 extra on the limited upcountry suspension $290 V-8 $370 5-speed $75 adjustable pedals $185 rain sensitive wipers $75 skid plate group $200
Again, READ my posts - I CLEARLY stated whether the item was "Optional or standard" for the Side Air Bags, Tinted Glass and Overhead console. On the additional list of features I stated "The QX4 does not have AVAILABLE:"
You can equip a GC Limited or Overland with ALL of those wonderful options and still be CHEAPER than a QX4.
I have NEVER had a problem with the antenna bending, on-road or off-road. What does happen though with the power antenna's is that they break all the time and you have to constantly listen to the whine of it going up and down every time you turn the radio off or on.
By the way, I am just curious - if the QX4 is poorly rated and handles badly for off-road use, and it is poorly rated for on-road use (bottoms out when you have cargo or passengers), then what good is it? You can't go off-road OR to the mall. Maybe you should have bought a minivan or something. Or, as I'm sure you now wish, a Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Comments
I remember looking at a new JGC back in 97 when leasing had become the latest rage at the dealerships. Had some wet-behind-the-ears leasing rep (a kid) enthusiastically trying to talk me into leasing my next vehicle. He told me that by trading in my mint 93 and leasing a new one, he could put me into a brand new JGC equipped exactly like my 93 for $20/month less than what I was currently making in car payments. He would counter every argument I made that leasing wasn't for me... until I dropped your line above on him. It was like watching a balloon deflate.
Look, leasing may be practical for some people out there. For me it's not because I put on much more than 12K/year in mileage. Sure, you can tailor a lease for the amount of driving you do but have you ever looked at how much more this costs? Of all the people that've leased in the last 6 years, how many are satisfied that this was a good move and how many really got burned?
A typical lease runs three years. If you're unlucky enough to lease a problem vehicle, you're still stuck with it for three years. It's not easy to break a lease and can be quite costly if you do. And you have nothing to use towards the purchase or lease of the next one.
Granted, if you purchased a bad vehicle you'll end up taking a financial hit by trading or selling it earlier. At least you won't take as much as a lease hit and you should have some money coming out of it to put towards the next one. You can get out from under a purchased vehicle anytime you want to. That's a lot easier than having to break a lease.
Resale value is crappy on all vehicles today... purchased or leased. If I think I'm not getting enough in trade, then I can make the decision to drive it till it drops, wait/haggle for the best possible deal, or just take the hit and buy a new one. I'll get rid of it at a time of my choosing... not because my expiring lease is forcing me to.
Think about this... what advantage do you have when you walk into a dealership with an expiring lease and nothing else to deal with? You're totally at their mercy. They're like a pack of sharks smelling blood in the water.
Excellent points!
Note to self: STOP stealing kkulig's thunder!
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
I buy a vehicle with the intention of keeping it long term. If it turns out to be a problem vehicle, I have more options on what to do with it than if I had leased it. I'm not "stuck" with it for 3 years and can get out from under it a lot cheaper than one I would've leased.
Yes, I put down a substantial down payment when I buy. How else am I going to keep my payments manageable? Would you care to compare monthly payments... mine vs your lease payments? Better yet, compare 3 year total cost of ownership vs your 3 year lease? Last but certainly not least... what each of us has left to show at the end of that 3 year period?
Nikiblue1, I don't have any more out of pocket expenses on the JGC I bought (vs a leased one) when something goes wrong. The same 3/36 and 7/100 warranties apply here. So I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make above.
With the volatility of the used vehicle market, how can anyone feel confident about negotiating a decent buyout price on their leased vehicle? Earlier leases had residual value seriously undervalued(?) by the leasing corporations, to the benefit of the consumer. That's not true today. When I buy, I don't worry about the headache of trying to get rid of it or trade it in down the road. At least I'm more in control of the final outcome than if it was an expiring lease... I'm in a position to bargain for the next one.
As for JGC reliability... I've said it a thousand times, it's no better or worse than anything else out there. Reliability is a subjective term. Of all the complaints you've read, how many were really for annoying things and how many actually led to catastrophic part failures or accidents?
I'm on my 4th JGC. I've owned a 93, 98, 99 and now an 02. Had relatively few problems with my 93. My 98 went back under the lemon law with no hassle from DC. They stood behind their product for me, so what more could I possibly expect from a manufacturer? My 99 had some of the minor problems people complained about and all were fixed under warranty to my satisfaction... again without any hassle. What more could I ask for there? So far, my 02 is running great and much quieter than my others were... plus it has more options than my 99 had and it's MSRP was $2K less than the 99 was. What's there to complain about on that?
My apologies for getting off topic... I realize there are more appropriate threads for this subject.
p.s. I must say Jeep 24 hour roadside assistance worked out pretty good.
Leasing isn't an option for me, my income is very limited and the JGC is at the top end of what I can afford as it is, so I'll definitely be buying. A few of my friends have leased and I fail to see how it makes any sense - one of them did a 5 year lease on a Chevy Tahoe - his total paid came out to be around $34,000 - for a few thousand more, he could have bought it.
Some of the Japanese models are nice (I like the Pathfinder) but unforutnately I'm a very tall guy (6'4") and I don't fit in most of the Japanese or Compact SUV's.
Thanks again for the info and the help.
Darion
Nikiblue1: " built quality of JGC vs. other makes. I have a nissan, and two of my friends own fords SUV. Not a single problem with all three"
I also have a couple of friends, who have JGC's, and they have NOT had a single problem from day one - that proves that they are just as reliable as the Nissan and Fords then, right? And where do you get off commenting on "poor reliability for 1999-2002 models" when all you owned was a 2000? Show me some proof of ANY problems on a 2001 or 2002 worth mentioning.
Nikiblue1: "Go read Toyota LC, Nissan PF, Ford and other SUV messages, you will not find very many complaints. Yes, they will have some here and there, but not as much as for JGC"
WHAT boards are you reading? Toyota's have their share of problems, and the Explorers have so many you can't count them. The newly redesigned '02 model has been terribly problematic since the day it came out. Fit and finish is sub-par. Same with the new GM vehicles, pieces falling off of them before you take your first drive.
Everyone seems to rate the Jeeps on the one stand-out bad year they had - the redesign in 1999. The 2000-2002 JGC's have been incredibly reliable, much more so than most other SUV's out there in the current market.
About the only problems worth mentioning that Jeep has had the past couple years are the brakes - and a recent redesign of the brake pads and calipers appears to have solved that problem. Ask any Ford service manager how many Explorers come through their shop with warped rotors - "too many to count" will probably be their reply.
The newer JGC's are built much better these days, fit an finish far exceeds that of most other SUV manufacturers. And most of the problems that these other SUV's have are very annoying, things like water leaks, wind noise, weeping mirrors, sludge in the engines, poor fit and finish, rattles, sunroof leaks, doors that squeak, noisy engines, uncomfortable seating, and on and on. Awhile back someone counted up 40+ different problems on the new MDX. You don't find these kinds of problems in that quantity in the newer Jeeps. Go through some message boards and see how many problems you find on Jeeps that are NOT the 1999's. Too few to count, and certainly NO problems that make the vehicle inoperable and have to be towed to the garage like so many other brands.
I have owned 3 JGC's now, and I have NEVER had any of them in the shop for any repairs! You take your chances with any vehicle you buy, no matter who makes it, they all have their share of problems and Lemons. Look in the back of the April 2002 issue of Consumer Reports at the JGC reliabilty rankings and you will see "Better than average" red dots all over the chart for the last few years of the GC.
The JGC stomps the competition out there in not only looks but ride quality, handling, appearance, fit and finish, comfort, power, and of course off-road capabilty - and too many other positive features to list here.
My 2001 has been absolutely perfect. I know a lot of other owners who have 2001's and 2002's with zero problems. Jeep really has turned things around in reliabilty, while others who used to be reliable are now moving in the opposite direction.
I've already told my dealer to "put my order in" for the new 2004 JGC (coming out soon), and I look forward to buying another quality vehicle with, at a minimum, best-in-class performance and features!!
As I have previously mentioned you take a gamble. Yes, you are correct any vehicle can have a lemon. But as I said, even my lawyers stated he has a very high percentage of vehicles that he deals with are made by DC and he had numerous cases dealing directly with 1999, 2000 year JGC. Yes, I have only owned a 2000 JGC. I also have a couple friends that had 1999, 2001 JGC. The person who had 1999 JGC had problems with starter, power window problems, and paint pealing off. The person who had the 2001 model year with 6 cylinder did not have any mechanical problems other then running outside on the DAILY basis because the alarm kept going off--no there was nobody around trying to break in. And the dealer had replaced the alarm once. Still no correction.
In re: power, gadgets, and off road capability. JGC is awesome. I loved that aspect of the SUV. (I have taken my JGC on a black diamond off road run--the JGC was awesome. I would not even want to try with my Nissan mainly due to lack of experience with off - road driving. But we are talking about reliability here.) Of course there is no comparison between JGC and Ford/Nissan. Toyota LC and JGC is another story--they are close. Personally I just did not want to deal with all the constant non-repairable problems that I had with my JGC. That is all that I'm saying. You are taking a greater gamble with JGC. I would not recommended this SUV to anybody considering purchasing a long term reliable vehicle. My opinion about leasing still stands. By the way I had two leaks in my jeep in two different places. This is just one of about 10-13 problems with my JGC.
Now back to reliability issue. Here is the direct quote from consumer report. Yes, they have the red dots, but this is what they really think.
"Aside from its powerful optional V8, the Grand Cherokee isn't terribly impressive. The standard in line six-cylinder engine is noisy and weak, and the automatic transmission it's mated to is neither smooth nor responsive. Versions with the V8 get a full-time 4WD system; a selectable system is available (but rare) on six-cylinder models. The Grand Cherokee's ride is unsettled, with constant side-to-side rocking on rough roads. Handling is secure though not nimble, with vague, imprecise steering. The cockpit is cramped, the front seats lack support, and the rear is tight. Where the Jeep still shines is in off-road excursions. A new-for-2002 Overland version gets a modified, 260-hp version of the V8 and a number of model-specific styling cues. Recently added options include side-curtain air bags and a tire-pressure monitoring system. Reliability has been consistently poor." (direct quote from Consumer report).
Also edmunds review is not very flattering. "Noisy and unrefined, questionable reliability" (www.edmunds.com) The power and off road capability compliment is still there.
The proof's in the pudding, so to speak, and I've been happy with my ownership experience over the years.
Want to improve the ride and handling characteristics on a JGC? Then buy one with the Up-Country Suspension option... that will take care of most of the complaints in that department. The standard suspension is a real joke.
As far as other brands being "so much more reliable" than Jeep? That's what I get tired of hearing all the time. As I said, Jeep has within the past couple years surpassed almost every other competitor out there. Todays Jeeps are remarkably reliable and have very few problems at all, they have made a total turn-around while the competition has slipped heavily...
For those who think that the competition is so much better, here is just a SMALL sampling of problems I pulled up on some other SUV's. This is not a complete list of course. I've had Jeeps for several years with no problems at all and I would sure hate to have to deal with some of these problems:
Acura MDX
Outside Mirrors - Continuous Water Drips After Washing
Speakers - Rattle or Buzz
Audio Unit - Buttons Stop Working
Roof - Squeak Noise While Driving Over Bumps
Second Row Seat - Does Not Recline/Fold Down
Moonroof - Squeaks from Moonroof Seal
Engine - Oil Leaks
Body - excessive Wind noise
2002 Explorer
Unable to Access/Program Ignition Key/No Start,
A/T - Buzzing Noise When Torque Converter Engaged
A/T - 5R55W Harsh Upshifts
A/T - 5R55W Ticking Noise
Driveability - Vacuum Leak Detection
Shift Interlock (BRAKE) - Inadvertent Disabling
Heater Core - Repeated Failure
A/T - 5R55W Whine/Howl When Cold
Engine - Hesitation on Hard Right Turns
Moonroof - Molding Loose/Sunshade Tearing
A/C - Blend Door Actuator Clicking Noise
A/T - 5R55W Converter Housing Fluid Leak
A/T - 5R55W Soft/Harsh 2nd - 3rd & 3rd - 4th Gear Shifts
Trailer Hitch - Insufficient Receiver Clearance
A/T - 5R55W Cooler Line Fluid Leak
Liftgate Glass Bracket Inspection
Xterra
Seat Belt - Slow Retraction
Steering/Suspension - Vehicle Pull Diagnosis
Roof Rack - Air Dam Seal Protector Replacement
EVAP Canister - Charcoal Leakage
Brakes - Noise/Judder/Feel Diagnosis & Repair
Hood/Fender - Paint Chipping
Suspension - Pop/Clunk Noise Under Floor
Air Bag Module - Air Bag Warning Lamp ON
Body/Interior - Squeak & Rattle Diagnosis/Repair
Engine - Piston Replacement
Paint - Finish Damage at Roof Rack Air Dam
Brakes - Noise/Judder/Feel Diagnosis & Repair
Driveshaft - Center Bearing Replacement Procedure
Steering - Vibration/Brake Pedal Pulsation
ECM - Idle Fluctuation
Seat Belts - Front Latch Plate Stopper Button Missing
Grille - Windshield Washer Solvent Stains
Bumper - Rattle Noise From Front
A/C - R134A Leak Detection (Dye)
Audio - Speaker Noise, Cellular Phone Interference
Suspension - Strut Leak Guideline
Interior - Squeak and Rattle Repair Supplies
Body - Repair Guidlines for Rust & Corrosion
Brakes - Noise Explanation
Cassette - Poor Sound Quality/Loss of Channel/Tape Jamed
Brakes - Clunk/Pulsation/ABS Self Check
Paint - Spotting Prevention & Repair
Brakes - Explanation of Common Noises
Lights - Plastic Lens Isopropyl Alcohol Caution
TRAILBLAZER
Electrical - No Start/Multiple Systems Inoperative
Heater - Insufficient Heat To Driver's Feet
Interior - New Odor Elimination Product
A/T - 4L60E/4L65E 2nd to 3rd Gear Upshift Clunk
A/T - Fluid Leak Diagnosis
A/T - Poor Performance/SES Lamp ON/DTC P0757 Set
A/T - Slipping/Missed Shifts Diagnostic Tips
Brake Rotor - Warranty Service Procedure
Instruments - PDI Travel Note Recorder Message Deletion
Tires - Sidewall Damage
Cigarette Lighter - Inoperative
HomeLink(R) Transmitter - Programming Difficulties
PCM - MIL ON/DTC's Set/Delayed A/T Downshift
Radio - Erratic or Intermittent Operation
Rear View Mirrors (Outside) - Click or Ratchet Sound
Wheel Nut Covers - Loose/Missing
A/T - Harsh 1 to 2 Gear Upshift Diagnostic Information
Radio Speakers - Intermittent, Random Noises
Center Mounted Stop Lamp - Applique Loose
Luggage Carrier - Windnoise
Memory/Heated Seats - Inoperative
Door Edge - New Protection
Hood Hinge - Rattle
Navigation System - Unable to Connect to OnStar(R)
Power Steering - Whine Noise on Start Up
A/C - Odor Emission in Hot Weather
Instrument Panel - Erratic Indicators/Gauges/Pointers
Rear Axle - Exchange Program
Engine - Exchange Program
Toyota ("engine sludge") & Also Nissan Pathfinder:
Way too many to list for all the different SUV models, but overall there are TONS of problems noted, especially on the Pathfinder.
********* I rest my case *************
To kkulig: My 2000 JGC Limited V8 had quadra drive, UP COUNTRY SUSPENSION, and all bells and whistles inside and out - fully loaded. It was beautiful! Too bad it was a $40000 piece of junk.
Oh, by the way, our other SUV besides the PF is a 2001 Ford Excursion 4x4 Limited - no problems still after 18000 miles. It's excellent at pulling toys and pretty good off- road! MPG is a different story!
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
I find it interesting that you traded in your JGC for.... a Pathfinder???? I think you took a step backwards as far as reliabilty goes. Here's a sampling of TSB's from the past couple of years:
A/C - New Leak Detector
A/C - New Connections & O-Rings
A/T - Oil Cooler Cleaning Procedure
Brakes - Clunk/Pulsation/ABS Self Check
Brakes - Noise Explanation
Brakes - Noise/Judder/Feel Diagnosis & Repair
Body - Repair Guidlines for Rust & Corrosion
Cassette - Poor Sound Quality/Loss of Channel/Tape Jamed
Drivers Seat - Will Not Move Forward or Back
Engine - Piston Replacement
Engine Controls - Hard Start Cold Temps/At High Altitude
EVAP Vent Control Valve - DTC'S Stored in Memory
EVAP Canister - Charcoal Leakage
Interior - Dash Squeak/Rattle/Creak From Right Hand Side
Interior - Squeak and Rattle Repair Supplies
Lights - Plastic Lens Isopropyl Alcohol Caution
MIL ON - DTC P0505 (Electronic Idle Control)
Mirrors - Inside Rear View Mirror Is Loose or Falls Off
PDI - Paint Guard Film Swell, Stains, and Spots
Paint - Removal of Environmental Particles
P/S Pump - Fluid Leaks at Fitting
Seat Belt - Slow Retraction
Squeak/Rattle Noise
Steering - Vibration/Brake Pedal Pulsation
Steering/Body - Vibration Between 60 & 70 Mph
Steering/Suspension - Vehicle Pull Diagnosis
Starting & Charging - Systems Description/Diagnostics
Suspension - Strut Leak Guideline
Steering/Suspension - Vehicle Pull Diagnosis
Tailgate - Rear Hatch
TCM - 1st to 2nd Gear Shift Flare
Transfer Case - Won't Shift From 4WD to 2WD
Transfer Case - Rumbling Noise From Companion Flange
I HAVE to ask you, after reading the above list do you really think that the Nissan's are MORE reliable than Jeeps? I hardly think so. Noise, rust, corrosion, leaks, paint problems, shift problems, squeaks, rattles, mirrors falling off, hard starting, clunks and so on HARDLY make for a "reliable" vehicle. These are annoying problems, MOST of which you will NOT find on Jeeps.
Oh, and "Brake pedal pulsation"?? What?, by what I have read on this board Jeep is the ONLY vehicle out there with warped rotors. Hmmm.
...AND, there are plenty of listings for Ford Excursions the past couple years as well. I'll make my point again, there are many more vehicles out there with a LOT more problems, and much more serious problems, than Jeeps. Is Jeep the best as far as reliabilty goes? NO, of course not. Are they the worst? NO, and in fact far from it. People just need to give credit where credit is due as Jeep has indeed come a long way to turn things around. Give them credit for that. Look what happened with the Explorer rollover situation and the problems with the brand new 2002 models - and I still hear people gloating about Explorers and trashing Jeeps. Amazing.
Finally, nikkiblue1, did you read the Edmunds review on the 1999.5 Pathfinder? As we all know, Jeep had a bad year in 1999 and by the looks of this review, Nissan had a much worse model at the same time, and the TSB list for the '99 PF seems endless. But I don't hear anyone trashing 1999 PF's (and the many other unreliable SUV's) like they do the Jeeps, I just don't get that.
And as far as what consumer reports says about the JGC, well who are they? Apparently the poor ride, side-to-side rocking, insecure handling, and vague steering is exactly what most people are looking for? Or are they comparing this to a car that can't tow, off-road, or get through severe weather conditions? I've driven plenty of SUV's and the ones that drive like cars aren't good for any utility functions. And compared to many others that can, the JGC does all of that better. Name another SUV in this class (both size and price) that has as strong of a motor that can off-road and has better handling, ride, & steering. Maybe when the new 4runner comes and that's what I'm waiting to see. And I've yet to drive a Toyota SUV that inspires much confidence in the handling/steering department.
Any thoughts?
-Paul
"and in quoting directly from consumer reports he showed that the truth is the JGC is not as reliable as tloke1 would have us believe"
IF you had read my posts, gotothelight, you would have noticed that I correctly stated that Consumer Reports has NOT updated their reliability comments on the Jeep since the 1999 model year. What you read in the front part of the listings refers ONLY to the 1999 model. IF you had read what I posted you would have also noticed that in the back where the reliability CHARTS are the JGC shines in reliability ratings, especially for 2001 and 2002. Even 2000 has plenty of "Better than average" dots. THAT'S what you should go by, the LATEST and most up-to-date ratings - and then compare with other brands in the same section.
"The opinion of one person verses the compiled matrix of many thousands by a major consumer magazine is what must be considered"
EXACTLY - isn't THAT what I said in my post, to LOOK at the CHARTS for the LATEST compilings??
I've NEVER said Jeeps were perfect, and I have never said that. What I am saying is that they are BETTER than what a lot of people on this board give them credit for. Everyone here takes a FEW examples and all of a sudden Jeep is one of the worst vehicles on the road.
And in my posts I have COMPLIMENTED many other SUV's. I have owned two Explorers in the past and loved them, they were 99% perfect in reliability. I have also owned a Chevrolet Trailblazer which I also enjoyed and was nearly problem-free.
I only compiled the list of problems from other SUV's because like many others I am tired of everyone saying how "perfect" they are. The list clearly shows that ALL brands have problems, like I have repeatedly stated. Gotothelight, I suppose you think I made up the Service Bulletin lists above? That was dead accurate info that will HELP a lot of potential future buyers or owners. Knowledge is power, IF it is accurate. I only posted that because the people on this board, like yourself, seem to thing that Jeep is the ONLY "unreliable" vehicle out there. My info proves otherwise, doesn't it?
Nikiblue1 complained about her Jeep and the reliabilty problems she had but then goes out and buys a Nissan that has been just as problematic, if not more so than the Jeeps. That's the part she left out - you see someone reading her posts will think ALL Jeeps are unreliable and that ALL Nissans are reliable. Is that fair?
I don't mind anyone saying negative things about Jeeps, IF they are TRUE, AND if they want to tell it like it is from BOTH sides.
So, gotothelight, WHEN have I EVER said that "My SUV" was "BETTER" than anyone else's? I have NEVER said that. NEVER. In fact I clearly have stated that Jeep "was NOT the best nor NOT the worst"...
If "gotothelight" had his way then no one on this board could reply and give their opinion. What should we do, gotothelight, just sit back and let one-sided and sometimes false information get posted all the time? Remember, this is a "discussion" board for Jeeps and I am simply giving my opinion and sharing my knowledge. I know a LOT of Jeep owners and do a LOT of research all the time so my statements are NOT just the opinion of "one person" as you carelessly stated. I have purchased over 30 brand new cars in the past 4 decades or so, and I have thousands of hours of mechanical experience working on all sorts of cars over the years - so I think I have enough expertise to comment on this and similar topics. I have also been a subscriber to Consumer Reports for nearly 30 years and have always stood behind 95% or more of what they claim or report. Every statement I have made here I will stand behind.
The biggest problem here is that people are recommending to others that they NOT buy a new Jeep, BASED on experiences or info from a model 3-4 years old!! These same people have NOT researched the CURRENT reliability, and so end up making FALSE statements that have no merit whatsoever. In fact some even recommend other brands that are WORSE reliability-wise! My point in my posts is to rightfully defend against those false and inaccurate statements and to tell it like it really is from BOTH sides. That is called being "FAIR" and that's all I have ever asked for.
(We do have a "JGC problems" discussion linked in the left sidebar where you can learn all about real problems real owners have with their rides and what they did to fix them).
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
-Paul
My 2001 JGC Ltd. with V8 and Quadra Drive now has 24,000+ miles. As I previously posted, the only problem has been warped brakes replaced (along with the rotors) by the dealer at no cost at 14,000 miles (to be honest, my wife has another complaint... it's kind of unkempt inside). The Jeep is still running like new, and can't be beat in the snow.
By the way, I switched to Mobil 1 0W-30 and am changing the oil myself every 7,500 mi. I believe I could go further with no problems, but don't want to void the warrantee.
Livetodrive, I couldn't have summed it up better myself, perfectly said!!
On your brake problem, DC has (finally) just released new parts that appear will solve the long-overdue problems associated with the rotors and brakes. The TSB is number 05-00-302 and was issued last month.
As far as future models and new features, there are some great things coming in the new JGC's. The 2003 models have very few changes but will only be produced for a few months. The new 2004 models will be introduced early, this coming January, with a slightly redesigned front end and interior and some nice electronic improvements in audio, NAV and cellular.
I totally agree with what sebring95, livetodrive, and especially tloke1 had to say. I too get extremely tired of all the Jeep bashing that goes on out here. It's refreshing to actually hear other people say something positive about the JGC and at the same time, temper those statements with the realism that like every other vehicle, the JGC isn't perfect either. That still doesn't stop them from liking or driving one. I respect those kinds of opinions more than any other. They're totally honest statements. Tloke1, you truly have my respect!
We are all entitled to our opinion and many of us like to share our knowledge with other JGC owners, or potential owners. Many people come here and get turned off on the JGC because of the amount of complaining done by a handful of people with very biased opinions. That's not entirely fair. I do realize that these people have had bad experiences with JGC and they have a right to post their thoughts. I certainly won't deny them that. Hey, I've had one go back under the lemon law, remember?
For the first time in a long time I'm starting to see some balance come into these threads. To me, it's refreshing and makes the whole thing more meaningful to be able to read some good with the bad. This has been sorely lacking in the majority of Edmunds discussions and should be encouraged as much as possible.
We all need to remember that to truly help others with vehicle problems or choices, we need to be frank, honest and realistic in what we say out here. We should be able to state the positives as well as the negatives when talking about our vehicles, right? Some of us do, many do not. If you can't do this, who are you really helping out here? The people who come here for info are expecting that from us. I strive for this whenever I interject my "2 cents worth" into a discussion. I try to listen to and understand all viewpoints and to give the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. Yes, I can be as passionate on a subject as well as anyone else. But I also try to be understanding of both sides of the issue... and both sides should get equal "air time" out here.
Steve... I understand that there are threads running specifically for JGC problems. This thread is simply titled "Jeep Grand Cherokee" so my assumption is that any topic can be discussed here. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see how anything could be "off topic" in this particular thread.
Nice post - guess it's human nature to gripe more than "discuss" at times.
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Bigorange30, what sources do you base your claim on? Are you talking about the 1999 JGC models like everyone else? I think the 2001 and 2002 JGC are JUST as reliable as the 2001/2002 Toyota's and Honda's. Hardly any problems at all with the newer Jeeps, and they are now in the TOP 2-3 reliable SUV brands, no doubt about it, far ahead of MOST SUV vehicles. Note that a LOT of manufacturers who used to be reliable in the past have slipped a notch or two in that area, so don't go by what you read years and years ago.
If you get a chance to stop by a Jeep dealer in the near future check out the 2002 Grand Cherokees - take a close look at fit and finish, from front to back, inside and out, and then compare with some other brands. You'll find these new JGC's far ahead of most of their competitors.
You need to take a look and study some of the message boards covering the other brands, and not just the ones on Edmunds, before you come to any conclusions about the JGC being "worse than other SUV's". You'll find plenty of problems on EVERY single brand out there, including the Japanese vehicles, and some of these problems are a lot more annoying than what you might find in Jeeps.
Nissan is another story and in my opinion should NOT be grouped in the same "reliable" category as Toyota and Honda. Take a look at the TSB list I posted a couple pages back and then tell me how reliable you still think they are. They are clearly WORSE than Jeep Grand Cherokees!
Consumer Reports Jeep Grand Cherokee Reliabilty Summary - "100"= highest possible score:
1994 - 33.9
1995 - 37.5
1996 - 38.6
1997 - 42.9
1998 - 58.9
1999 - 51.8
2000 - 78.6
2001 - 92.8
Jeep has nearly tripled their rating improvement since 1994 and has nearly doubled it since 1999. 92.8% is an incredibly high rating, far ahead of a good majority of other vehicles out there. My guess is that the 2002 models will come in around 96% or better.
2000 Grand Cherokee: "Red dots" (above average) in almost every single category. The ONLY "below average rating is for the brakes. 6 of the 14 categories received the highest rating for reliability. 5 more categories received "Above average".
2001 Grand Cherokee: "Red dots" in ALL 14 CATEGORIES! HIGHEST rating (full dot) in 10 of the categories! Above average in the other 4. Almost a PERFECT possible score from top to bottom!
So your statement about "DC just waking up in 2002 to take a giant leap in reliability" is totally without merit, and even more surprising is that you are making that inaccurate statement based on one of your own sources, Consumer Reports. It's apparent that you didn't even read or study the reliabilty charts! Furthermore, WHO said anything about the Jeep being in "First Place" in reliability? I have certainly NEVER made that claim in any of my posts, NEVER. Please try to be more accurate when you make statements like this.
And yes, I can comment about 2002 reliabilty. The JGC's have been out almost a year, with some owners already breaking 20,000+ miles. Vehicles that are typically repair-prone are not just perfect for the first couple years and then fall apart - they will exhibit lots of early problems and quirks during that first year. Owners of 2002s report almost 0 problems. But again, the proof is in the charts for the last 8 years. That is a very good indication of where Jeep has been and where they are going.
The bottom line:
For the most recent ratings year, 2001, Consumer Reports has given the JGC ITS HIGHEST RATING IN 11 OF THE 14 CATEGORIES AND 2ND HIGHEST IN THE OTHER 3. The QX4 was rated only SLIGHTLY higher for 2001. Note that in the past Nissan has had tons of reliabilty problems, so don't go bragging yet how well your QX4 will hold up in the years ahead as the QX4 has NO BETTER odds of being any more reliable in the future than the JGC.
Let's be realistic about some of these "nightmare" problems you've read about, and what the real definition of the term reliability is...
The major complaint always seem to center around warped brake rotors. I don't know about you, but I don't consider that to be a major problem and it's something that's very easy to fix once and for all with a decent set of aftermarket rotors.
With a 4WD system there are going to be complaints of drivetrain noise, vibration, etc. No doubt, the JGC has had its share of these problems. DC's been replacing driveshafts, differentials, etc. At least the 93-98 transmission failures seem to be a thing of the past now. My 99 was somewhat noisy, but hey, this is a 4WD and more of a truck than a car so some noise is to be expected. You can't compare any SUV to the way a car feels and sounds and it makes me wonder how many people are really doing this when they complain. The only thing I had replaced on my 99 was a driveshaft (for the bump-stop problem). I had 46K reliable miles on my 99 when I traded it for my 02... which by the way, is a much quieter vehicle.
I've also heard people complaining of a crank position sensor problem on the I6 engine. I have yet to hear anyone complain about the 4.7L V8 engine. It's been extremely reliable... quite possibly DC's best engine to date. Notice how no one talks about this engine because there's been nothing to complain about?
I've owned a 93, 98 (lemon), 99 and now an 02. Outside of a major vibration problem my dealer made several serious attempts to fix on my 98, I've been extrremely happy with the other 3. Yes, I've had some of the problems that others complained about on these model years but never anything my dealer wasn't able to fix. That's part of the "joy" of owning a vehicle. Notice I said "a" vehicle?
I'm not trying to make light of the things people have complained about in these threads, or that they aren't legitimate complaints. Nor am I defending DC or any other manufacturer or car dealership for their actions (or lack thereof). You spend that kind of money on a vehicle, you "expect" it to be near perfect. But, nobody builds that elusively "perfect" vehicle and I doubt if we'll ever see one in our lifetime. Most complaints are for the irritating/annoying problems... not things that have led to catastrophic part failures or left you stranded in the middle of nowhere. Even with JGC's faults, it still dependably gets you where you need to go (on or off-road). To me, that's the REAL definition of reliability.
I also wonder how many of the "bad" JGC ownership experiences are compounded by poor dealership service? No matter what vehicle you buy, it's going to have problems and need repair sooner or later. If you're taking it to an incompetent dealer, how is that going to affect your overall impression of the vehicle? Buying a vehicle from a reputable dealer is every bit (if not more) important than the make of vehicle you're buying. Anyone can sell a vehicle... only the good ones know how to service them. That's what brings me back to buy another.
You also need to work with the service department to solve a problem. Ragging on the service department makes no sense. They didn't build your vehicle but they're the poor slobs who're going to try to fix it for you. Why would you want to PO the people who're trying to fix your vehicle? That certainly doesn't inspire any desire on their part to make a serious attempt to find and fix the problem. Yet many people do this and contribute to their own bad vehicle ownership experience. You can read this between the lines in several posts out here. I don't feel sorry for these people either.
You say you've owned a Wrangler for 10 years and you've enjoyed it both on and off-road. Buying any vehicle is a crapshoot as far as getting a good one or a bad one goes. If you're really worried about quality or reliability, go out and buy an extended warranty for the peace of mind. Just remember, it's your money so buy what turns you on and enjoy it! You don't need to worry about what anyone thinks or says. For the number of JGC's on the road, I believe there are many more satisfied owners out there than these message boards lead you to believe.
I'm a little curious... after owning a Wrangler, why are you looking to step down to a 2WD vehicle? ;0)
Will you go off road? The 4 wheel drive option would be really handy, especially with rough terrain or in bad winter weather.
Are you skittish about first year makes? The Grand Cherokee was first made in 1993 and completely redesigned in the 1999 model year.
Did you compare prices on Edmund's or Kelly Blue Book? Get a reasonable idea of what you might pay for the model & options you're looking for at these sites. Carfax.com may help provide valuable information for a fee.
The gear whine issue has been covered extensively on this board. Most people report this problem with the 4 wheel drive systems. I don't recall anyone mentioning gear whine with a 2 WD system.
For what it's worth, my '02 JGC Ltd. has 8500 miles and runs like a charm. My '01 was traded in because of continuing electrical and drivetrain problems. A family friend purchased my '93 Laredo and it's still going strong.
Gather information from as many sources as possible. You need to be the judge of their credibility. Then, if the vehicle fits your needs, wants, and pocketbook, go for it chrisg6.
When I had trouble with my '01, I wanted everyone on this board to know exactly what was happening. I experienced a combination of poor service and a unique, poorly made vehicle. I have not generalized my experience to all other Jeep GC vehicles & owners. There is no way I, or anyone else, can fairly make such a generalization. Tons of valuable information about owning a Jeep can be found through the posts here. The valuable posts have specific information and clear, thoughtful replies. Look back at the NAMES of those making posts. It is shameful for anyone to make off the wall comments without backing. You can tell which posts are worth reading and which should be entirely ignored.
Quote from Bigorange:
"but unless all others from DC are also improving, then it is probably an aberration"
I thought the topic here was the reliabilty issues of the Grand Cherokee. But now you're saying that if DC has other problematic vehicles then that will affect the Grand Cherokee's reliabilty after the "aberration" is over. And you are also saying how bad all DC vehicles are. While so very true that DC has had more than their share of unreliability for the past decade,they have made continual and astonishing gains in this area, and for the last couple of years have brought all those "black dots" to "red dots".
The April 2002 issue of CR (starting on page 81) lists a grand total of 26 different DC models in their used cars reliability charts index. Did you know that of all those models listed, and comparing the last two model years of 2000 and 2001, that there is a total of TWO, and ONLY two "black dots"!! - and even they are the "1/2 dots". That means in total for DC, 362 out of 364 category boxes had "red dots". Not too shabby.
As mentioned, the PT Cruiser was perfect. The 300M matched equally to and almost exactly the same as the QX4. The ONLY black dot for the Caravan in the past 4 years was for "brakes". You can clearly see in the charts where all DC vehicles have gone from a lot of "black dots" in the early to mid 1990s to almost all "red dots" across the board for EVERY vehicle. Sure, for DC there is room for improvement, but they have come a long, long way and are now rated well above average for most of their vehicles. Give them a lot of credit for that. Meanwhile, other auto companies, and not only domestic ones, have let their reliabilty ratings side downward, some below DC. Look what has happened to Ford recently.
Quote from Bigorange:
"I do like the loaners and personal attention I get at Infiniti"
I would hope so. If I paid $6,000 extra for a "QX4" Pathfinder name badge, I'd expect nothing less. I've always received that same premium level of treatment at my Jeep dealer. In fact, they are the best dealers that I have ever worked with. The truth is, overall you will spend far more on maintenance for your QX4 than I will for my Jeep. In other words, due to the premium over-pricing you'll be experiencing at Infiniti, in 5 years you will have spent a lot more maintaining your QX4 than I will for my Jeep.
Bigorange, since you threw away your April issue of Consumer Reports before you finished reading it, I should mention one of the comments they made about the 2002 QX4: "Ride quality quickly deteriorates with passengers aboard and handling is secure but unimpressive". You could have saved a lot of money by buying the Pathfinder, which CS gives better handling marks for. You bought outstanding reliabilty, no
argument there. The question is whether the trade-off is worth it. The QX4 is rated poorly for "off-road" use, but that also covers driving over the mountains, gravel and rocky roads, potholes, construction sites etc., things you may run into outside of those trips to the mall. And even to the mall if you add passengers or cargo you'll bottom-out along the way. And don't head into the country or back woods with the Infiniti, chances are a Jeep will have to tow you out of the mud somewhere.
Quote from Bigorange:
"Please show us where you get your information tloke. It's certainly not Consumer Report."
I already clearly mentioned that information: April, 2002. "Reliabilty History Charts" for used cars. 14-pages, starts on page 76, ends on page 89. "Jeep Grand Cherokee" is shown on page 84, lower left corner. ALL red dots for 2001. I'm sure there are other readers out there than can verify this. Librarys keep copies on file.
The "black dot" you are referring to is an old report for "predicted reliabilty". CS has not yet rated 2002 models for reliabilty anywhere that I can find, that info will be published in the April, 2003 issue. Don't forget that the point I have been defending here all along is NOT that the Jeep is "incredibly reliable" and "never has problems", BUT that the Jeep has steadily and noticeably improved during the past 8 years from "terrible" to the current "well above average". There is a reason the Jeep is the second-best selling SUV in America, it's truly wonderful vehicle. So much so it outsells the QX4 by a factor of more than 10-1. There's a reason tens of thousands of people buy Jeeps each and every month, "There's only one".
Jeep Grand Cherokee
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click here for a guide to the Ratings and reviews
Aside from its powerful optional V8, the Grand Cherokee isn't terribly impressive. The standard inline six-cylinder engine is noisy and weak, and the automatic transmission it's mated to is neither smooth nor responsive. Versions with the V8 get a full-time 4WD system; a selectable system is available (but rare) on six-cylinder models. The Grand Cherokee's ride is unsettled, with constant side-to-side rocking on rough roads. Handling is secure though not nimble, with vague, imprecise steering. The cockpit is cramped, the front seats lack support, and the rear is tight. Where the Jeep still shines is in off-road excursions. A new-for-2002 Overland version gets a modified, 260-hp version of the V8 and a number of model-specific styling cues. Recently added options include side-curtain air bags and a tire-pressure monitoring system. Reliability has been consistently poor."
I worked for a major corp. several years ago and spent alot of time with the vehicle fleet department. Initially I thought we could save money in the long-run by buying imports. The only way it would have worked is if we could have been nearly guaranteed hitting 200K withour a major repair. Alot can happen that last year in-service and if 10% needed major repairs during that period it would have blown the whole savings. We were better off to turn the fleet quicker.
Xenon HID headlights
tinted rear glass
running boards
side air-bags
front independent suspension
overhead console
auto retracting antenna
Admittedly, the JGC has a bigger engine. The "cost to own" were almost exactly the same on the limited ($43,489) vs. the Q ($44,079) over 5 years. The JGC does go off-road better but as much as it breaks down, I'll take the Q.
Your list of "The stuff the Q has that the JGC Ltd. does not includes" is incorrect.
The Limited/Overland HAS: Side Air Bags (optional, standard on Overland)
The Limited/Overland HAS: Tinted Rear Glass (standard)
The Limited/Overland HAS: Overhead Console (standard, includes HomeLink Garage Door Opener system)
The QX4 Does NOT HAVE available:
Tire Pressure Monitor System
Adjustable Pedals
Rain Sense Wipers
Up-Country Suspension
Electroluminescent white-face gauges
Infra-red dual zone air conditioning w/optional Air Filtration system
Memory systems for seats, mirrors, pedals, radio etc.
Skid Plate Group
5-Speed Transmission
17" wheels Standard
The QX4 REQUIRES Premium fuel, the Grand Cherokee Does not.
BigOrange, in your post above you state "Total Cost of Ownership you will find the JGC is actually higher because it depreciates faster and repair costs are higher..."
BUT IN YOUR VERY NEXT POST YOU STATE: "The "cost to own" were almost exactly the same on the limited ($43,489) vs. the Q ($44,079) over 5 years". Which is it? Higher? Lower? Will it be different when you post tomorrow?
BigOrange, here's a tip - if you remove the spare tire to reduce weight on the suspension you might be able to haul a passenger without bottoming out.
Your credibility is fading fast with me and I'm sure a lot of others on this board. By the way, Consumer Reports gives the QX4 and the Grand Cherokee the SAME "Average" marks for Depreciation, contradictory to your claim that "the Grand Cherokee depreciates faster."
I dont have the XM Satellite radio and am not familar with them. What is it about this unit that will make the factory look disappear and the device look obtrusive ?
tloke: you did not read all of my post (like you didn't do with CR). I said that the Overland was what I was comparing to. It is higher in "Total Cost to Own". The Limited is what sebring95 thought I should compare to so that's why the next comparison changed. Your correction was not right either. From the Jeep website:
side air bags are $490 extra on the limited
upcountry suspension $290
V-8 $370
5-speed $75
adjustable pedals $185
rain sensitive wipers $75
skid plate group $200
That doesn't look standard to me.
Again, READ my posts - I CLEARLY stated whether the item was "Optional or standard" for the Side Air Bags, Tinted Glass and Overhead console. On the additional list of features I stated "The QX4 does not have AVAILABLE:"
You can equip a GC Limited or Overland with ALL of those wonderful options and still be CHEAPER than a QX4.
I have NEVER had a problem with the antenna bending, on-road or off-road. What does happen though with the power antenna's is that they break all the time and you have to constantly listen to the whine of it going up and down every time you turn the radio off or on.
By the way, I am just curious - if the QX4 is poorly rated and handles badly for off-road use, and it is poorly rated for on-road use (bottoms out when you have cargo or passengers), then what good is it? You can't go off-road OR to the mall. Maybe you should have bought a minivan or something. Or, as I'm sure you now wish, a Jeep Grand Cherokee.