Thanks for your post! Regarding the cut down engines that you saw, do you happen to know what engines they were? Another ML owner who posted here works for Mobil and he was mentioning that they use MB engines for tests and analysis.
IIRC, Castrol Syntec is a hydrocracked oil (a synthetic blend), and not a true man-made synthetic. Many have said that it's not as good as a true synthetic, but yet it's just as expensive.
I still can't believe that this many people, who usually consider themselves well educated, waste resources like that! An oil change every 2,500 or 3,000 miles is ludicrous, and not only by my books. Technological advances must have gone by some of our friends here, how else could this level of ignorance be explained?
A manufacturer (at least the European ones) only recommend cycles which have proven themselves in extensive tests. True, there could be a little reluctance on MB's part to change the oil more ofter (because they pay), but 7,500 mls for an oil change interval should be regarded as non-intrusive to a modern engine's life.
As usual, this is my personal opinion, but the recklessness with which some people treat our environment just makes me want to shout out loud.
Drew, do you remember whether the Rex has a "learning transmission", too?
The RX has an ECT-i doesn't it? "i" = intelligence, so I guess it can adapt the shift points as well. I've read the recent issues that you've been having. FWIW, the ML's tranny adaptations can be reset by the tech, so I would think that yours would have the same feature as well. Of course it does mean going back to that Lexus dealer of yours ;-)
Thanks for the heads-up. Well, sometimes (too often in life, anyway) you are forced to choose the lesser of the evils. I will stand by the people who handle my car this time, or install a webcam in the headliner beforehand, he, he.
John: It won't be $25 if you stick w/ the recommended oil. You need 8.5 qts of synth oil for MLs. That's $32 just for oil when it's on sale ($3.79/qt). Figure anothere $8-10 for filter...
Found out at the dealer yesterday that the combination of M7/3rd row seats AND Bose sound is available starting with mid-Oct. builds (maybe sooner; that was the first that met other criteria). So apparently that production problem has been resolved. However, none were yet at the dealership.
It's actually pretty silly to put a mileage requirement around oil changes.
I've had the luxury of being both schooled in engineering and having worked several years at a taxi garage while in college. The results? I've seen machines in labs, and under real world high-stress situations.
I agree - if you do mostly highway driving, 7500 miles is a good *estimate* of when to change the vehicle's oil. However - if you wait that long in stop-and-go NYC traffic, you're doing so at the expense of your engine.
Or how about if you regularly tow a boat? Or if you go offroad into really dirty conditions? Or operate the car 24 hours a day?
Mileage is a good *estimation* of when to change oil, because for 75% of the population, the driving is the same (mostly 12k miles/yr, mostly highway mileage). For the rest, it has to happen more often.
My MO has always been as follows - change during break in period at about 1500 miles. Then, change every season, varying viscosity as required by the manufacturer and the outside temperature. Check the oil regularly to see how dirty it is (that's as hokey as the opacity check of the FSS - but it's used in tandem with understanding your driving habits). If you do tow, or drive offroad, or through high-contamination areas - then change more often. If you're the typical highway/10-12k per year driver, two oil changes per year should suit you just fine.
As for Castrol Syntec vs. Mobil 1 - I'd never use Syntec again. I did once, in an S-10 Blazer I owned with 135k miles (now at 189k). Original engine, ran like a baby. For some reason, at the same viscosity, the Syntec made the engine run rougher, at higher RPM for the same speeds/loads. Engine temperature also increased.
We never had any problems with any of our cars running Mobil 1.
I was initially told to expect my car in November - since I ordered M7 and the Bose system. If they have figured it out sooner than initially expected, maybe I'll get my car sooner!
Does it exist? I looked around, but found other ones and not one for the M-class.
Also - does anyone have one that could send me a sample? I'm not necessarily asking for a copy - but I would like to see exactly what the content is like. I don't feel like dropping $100, when all I intend to do to the vehicle is oil changes (I do like to know how my car works though - I'm funny that way).
...if you do mostly highway driving, 7500 miles is a good *estimate* of when to change the vehicle's oil. However - if you wait that long in stop-and-go NYC traffic, you're doing so at the expense of your engine...
Are there people who actually do ALL their driving within city limits? Year 'round? No road trips?
Or if you go offroad into really dirty conditions? Or operate the car 24 hours a day?
Now, what is the percentage of SUV owners doing that?
...Mileage is a good *estimation* of when to change oil...
Correct, and I didn't mean to suggest an oil change after precisely 7,500mls, I was merely trying to bring forward the fact that the 3k interval is anachronistic. Whether 5k, 7.5k or 10k depends, as you pointed out, upon your specific circumstances. But there is still enough room for a more responsible mindset towards creating waste.
One of the engines that was cut apart was a Pontiac, the other a BMW. The suggested change interval on my first new MB, in 77 was 3000. I chose 2500 because it was an easy interval for me to pick out on all of the vehicles. In those days MB, while they approved synthetics (changed at the same 3000 mile interval), suggested that rather than use a more expensive oil, use a less expensive, though MB approved oil, and change it more often. The waste oil was burned for heat in an EPA approved burner which I used for heating the service area of my auto business for about 20 years.
This Mercedes has about 300.000 miles on the clock, first engine, and the V8 is running strong - no need to retire it any time soon. It has not seen a drop of synth which probably saved me a few thousand dollars.
Last week I took our 1999 ml320 to the local dealer to see about trading to a 2001. Our ml has 44,000 miles and is in excellent condition. The dealer offered us the 2001 ml for $ 41,980 and was going to give us $ 28,000.00 for ours. I did not think this was a good deal so we walked away. Has anyone else tried to trade for a 2001 or a 2002? What kind of deal were you offered?
dave01: My 02 ML has the M7 and Bose along with just about everything else and my build date is 10/17/01. I was officially give this date in writing from Alabama Friday 8/31/01. I am to pick up my ML at the factory on Mon 10/29/01.
Yes - there are people who do all city driving. Are there ML320's that work round the clock? You betcha. There are M-class vehicles being rented out, used as cabs in Europe, etc. Each of these cases would merit the oil being changed *much earlier* than 7,500 miles.
As far as your concern over waste oil - I wonder how much of this oil is being wasted, and how much of it is being recycled? My guess - a great deal of it.
Regarding the intrusiveness of changing oil at 7,500 miles as opposed to more often - you're off target here. Concerned about waste? Keep cars out of landfills, where waste is a bigger concern. Changing at 7,500 miles or greater is bound to do damage to a LOT of people whose driving habits don't merit it.
I will agree with you that the 3000 mark that most people have burnt into their heads is from a by-gone era. Of course, the requirement these days is deducted from a set of statistical averages, and at any given point will apply to no more than half the driving population.
I don't know if the date I saw (~10/13) is an earlier date, a change, or just when a '320 meeting other criteria happened to be in the queue. It seems consistent with seq'us' build date (congrats, BTW!). Since I can wait that long I'll probably opt for Bose. Now I just need a good price on one!
Sequoiasaurus--Why the lag between build and pick-up at the factory? Is that a Mercedes requirement?
We were offered $26,000 for our '99 ML320 with 37,000 miles. The car does have some scratches and bumps on it though. I checked edmunds and kbb for trade-in values and it seemed pretty fair. Why did you think $28k was not fair? I haven't settled on the deal yet and I want to see what I can bargain for an '02 ML320.
I am in the Chicago area, how about you?
Anyone know any bargaining M-B dealers in Chicago-area??
#4669 dave01: I believe b/c MBUSI has so many request for factory delivery these days. It's still sooner than I would receive if it were to come to the dealer though. Sometimes it takes longer once its built to get them shipped off.
Of course all can expect a detailed summary of my experiences with factory delivery once that occurs 42 days 1 hour and 14 minutes from today.
Yes I'm excited and can hardly wait. And its not even my vehicle its my wifes.
The key to FSS is a dielectric sensor in the oil pan that sends the computer information on the amount and type of contaminants in the liquid lubricant. It does this by passing a current through the oil and measuring its resistance, which is directly related to the level of contamination. For instance, the more metal particles present, the lower the ohms. The logic also takes into account input on rpm, throttle position, vacuum, and oil and coolant temperatures.
I humbly apologize for my error.
However I stand my ground on oil change frequency. I would point out that the experience of Rajesh, above is one of many. Too many as will be amply demonstrated in the next year or so that result from the useless FSS system. Yes, if you uses your vehicle primarily on the freeway, with light throttle settings, and don't sit in rush hour traffic, you can go longer intervals without oil changes. If you drive in stop and go traffic, frequent oil changes will vastly improve the engine life.
But it's your vehicle. Destroy it if you wish.
As to the person who suggests frequent oil changes is a waste of resources: In the first place, I find it laughable that someone who drives a 2.5 ton vehicle that averages around or under 20 MPG would have the shrewdness of mind to suggest frequent oil changes is a waste of resources. LOL. That aside, and in the second place, by frequent oil changes the odds are staggeringly in favor of much greater engine life than anyone who follows the FSS system. That means that barring accident, my ML will still be in service years after theirs will have burnt more oil than mine has had changed, and will be in a landfill as a piece of trash.
Something to think about.
And BTW, for those of you who do want the best chance at longevity investigate Redline products at http://www.redlineoil.com/
Lastly, Drew, as to how word processors have behaved over the years, yes, in fact, if you look back to Word Star going back to the mid 80's running on both CPM and IBM/MS DOS, Xywrite, PFS Write, Word Perfect, MS Works, MS Word, Nota Bene IBM Word Proof, Lotus Ami Pro, and virtually every word processor since the mid 80's (with the exception of text only processors, such as Brief, MS Edit, Quedit, Desqview Notepad), they ALL insert control codes into the text. Virtually every BBS in operation since about '91 was able to interpret these. The same is true for most web based sights today, including most newsgroups in existence. I have no idea why, outside of laziness or trying to stop people from composing off-line that the folks at Edmunds don't take the time to incorporate this capability into their code. But they don't. As far as recognizing HTML, that too, has been around since about '96, if I remember correctly, and is all but universally incorporated into web sites as well.
No need to apologise, we're all here to learn and I'm glad you managed to get some information out of it :-)
Regarding the development, our Town Hall software is developed and supported by Web Crossing. It probably has something to do with the amount of development money (and those guys charge mega $$$ per hour) that would have to be spent just for the small amount of people want to paste from MS Word without turning off Smartquotes. There are other more evident features that could probably be implemented with the cash ;-)
Good luck, Drew Host Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
If Ml has the same FSS(or whatever system they use to monitor the oil condition) as in the clk, how/where does it tell us when the next service is going to be.(by looking at the odometer and do the calculation ourself.)?
In my clk, there is a 4 by 2 screen under the speedometer, where you can find when your next service is going to be, how many gallons of gas left, your estimate mileage before u run out of gas, etc.
how does ML deliver those info to us?....can't wait to find out myself.
Thanks
it is so sad that many of us have no faith in MB's FSS. Wonder what MB think about that?
Oh brother, I'm truly sorry to have upset your stomach, but if you really put serious mileage on your vehicle (as opposed to others, who keep a car for fun), environmental considerations should be even more paramount!
If you don't like the FSS, fine, but don't you think it's a little overbearing to assume that everybody else must share an opinion, just because one can't ditch old habits?
If you wish to further discuss this matter, please take it to e-mail level. BTW, your "research" is (no surprise here) pathetically flawed!
Yep, I agree with Tarik - there is no need to call FSS-believers (such as myself - 46,000mi and counting on 3 FSS oil changes) idiots - post 4632. This means that by generalization, you have termed MB engineers that brought you this wonderful vehicle and who recommend FSS-determined oil change intervals idiots as well. Tsk, Tsk.
Funny how anyone who would not think twice about following FSS-intervals in their MB sedan would climb on a soap-box re ML. If FSS does not work, it is a warranty issue and should not be confused with changing oil as per FSS-determined interval.
Before you become to aggravated, remember that you basically labeled those who change their oils as ignorant and wasteful.
As an engineer, and someone who knows that 3000 miles is a lot to get out of oil in stop-and-go NYC traffic, I didn't appreciate that comment either.
Tracy beat me to it - if you're so concerned about waste - don't worry about the oil that is so heavily recycled. Get yourself a good Honda CRX and get 40MPG. Then you'll be doing a good thing for the environment.
I had intended to do so - while I went to my local dealer, his hours of operation and my work hours conflict (which is why I opted for him - he provides valet service for service appointments).
Has anyone on the forum actually bought this CD? I get this feeling that it is going to be serious overkill, and I'd rather not take the time out to visit the dealer strictly for that.
Just got my Ml500 blk/blk, sports package, xenons everything except 3rd row and phone. Walked in the dealership on Saturday evening just to look.( I had just sold my 98 E430 and was looking for a new vehicle. I had looked at the Lx470,X5 and even an Audi A6. But the ML best fits my need). Paid $1500 less than MSRP no haggling. It was still covered with plastic and needed to be prepped.
Changing oil before the FSS recommends may not be necessary, but it doesn't hurt, and may result in a little less wear and tear. In the scheme of things not really wasteful, but could be debatable weither risk/reward wins over cost over years and years.
To say following the FSS is misguided is not correct, or fair to a lot of well minded enthusiasts on this board.
I believe there are valid points all have made, and others can make up there minds without this digressing to a flame war here. We have lost a few great contributors in the past due to an aggressive opinion that put someone(s) out of joint.
Having said that, I'm sure that we have not exhausted all relevant facts and I'm sure that there may be a few links or sites dedicated to this oily topic. Lets be cognizant of peoples feelings, even when "you know they're wrong".
Rob 00 ml320 (following FSS) 86 944 (every 3000-4000K) flame retardant suit on ;-)
>As an engineer, and someone who knows that 3000 miles is a lot to get out of oil in stop-and-go NYC traffic
You will get as much out of the oil as an accurately functioning FSS will recommend. It does not matter if you drive stop'n'go in NYC or cruise I-94 in Montana - FSS will calculate YOUR personal interval depending on YOUR oil conditions. In NYC, your FSS will recommend an absolutely different interval then in Montana - maybe even 3000mi! Who knows?
As an engineer, I am surprised you put so little faith in your MB colleagues ;-)
tarik: Thanks for your comments. Go in peace. If it makes you feel more secure, merely discount my observations as the ranting of someone who has owned and maintained many motorized vehicles over the last 35 years.
hogster21: Thanks for your comments. The FSS system feeds on peoples reluctance to spend a little money to maintain the longevity of their vehicle(s). Oh and I'm not condemning the system that is in the ML. My comments were condemning the lame-o FSS system in total. At any rate, by all means, do as you wish with your vehicle(s). Please do think of my comments when you find your FSS vehicle needs an engine rebuild or is merely suffering from oil consumption.
I'll spend a little money up front and rest assured that this wont happen any time soon. I would guess this approach would never occur to you, which was the point of my earlier comments WRT those who "believe" in the FSS system.
Hugeness, I did not say it was not fair I just wanted to know what everyone thought about the deal. I called another dealer today and they offered me $ 26,500.00 for my 99 and the price of the 2001 was $ 39,000.00. This deal looked better than the first deal. The dealer is in Lexington, KY. I do not know what I am gonna do yet. The best interest rate they had was 7.9% and this seemed high to me considering we have 6.75% on our 99. I have not tried trading on a 2002....let me(us) know what you get worked out.
"The FSS system feeds on peoples reluctance to spend a little money to maintain the longevity of their vehicle(s)"
FSS is based on sound scientific/engineering principles. Just because it is also a great selling tool is no fault or to the detriment of MB ;-)
I just checked the oil in my 2 year old ML430 with over 46,000 all-purpose miles. 3FSS recommended oil changes with another to come in about 2,500mi or so. Knock on wood - hard - oil is up to the max and clean as a whistle.
Yes, Tracy, a year ago I have indeed considered comments such as yours, and purchased extended warranty. I chose to follow FSS recommendations and You chose to change oil more frequently - great for you! We all make our own choices and live with the consequences. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not everyone is welcome to impose it upon others.
I believe this thread is very important for prospective and current ML owners. FSS goes contrary to what conventional wisdom (and a lot of marketing, but that's another story) says about oil changes, and old habits die hard. Obviously, there is plenty of passion from both sides of the fence and I, personally, believe both sides are right in their convictions. I do not think you can go wrong by walking on either side of this fence. The choice is up to you. (5 cliches in one paragraph - beat that!)
I don't usually jump into the middle of hot topics, but, doesn't the amount amount of oil in a ML come into play? If I remember correctly, the vehicle I had before this was a v6 and used 4.5 quarts of oil. If the ML uses 8.5 that is nearly twice the oil to circulate through the engine. One would think that this amount of oil would allow us to lenthen the interval for oil changes. Using the synthetic should also lengthen the oil change interval. Does this make sense?
I have noticed that when I change the oil the FSS does not reset to 10,000 miles to service. I guess it must take other factors into account.
You have to manually reset the FSS to zero reference point. Procedure is in the manual - something like rub your tummy and your head at the same time while standing on your left foot;-) Sorry, couldn't resist - I do not have the manual handy...
"The counter can also be set by any individual. To do so:
1. Turn key in steering lock to position 2. 2. Immediately press button (1 - milage reset) twice within one second. 3. The present status for days or distance is displayed. Within 10 seconds turn key in steering lock to position 0. 4. Press and hold button (1), while turning key in steering lock to position 2 again. The present status for days or distance is displayed once more. Continue to hold button (1). After approx. 10 seconds a signal sounds, and the display shows 10,000 miles (Canada: 15 000 km) for approx. 10 seconds. 5. Release button (1)."
Ah, but synthetic is only a MBUSA policy. No such policy in Canada or in Europe. Maybe our mineral oil is better here ;-) ;-). No free 4 year schedule maintenance in Canada for those of you that don't know. Instead, we get a 2 year wear and tear warranty for items normally considered consumables (such as wiper blades, bulbs, brakes, but excluding tires).
BMW and the newer Jaguars (I think) also have flexible service systems similar to the MB's. BMW is actually on their second version. The previous one was a lot more simplistic and didn't take into account certain factors.The MB system has been in use in Europe since 1996.
Drew Host Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
Starting to sound like the oil discussion on the m-class mailing list a couple of months ago :-) I can't help but wonder if the engine rebuilds we heard about were because synth wasn't used. Oh well, we'll know in another year or two...
I too was concerned about driving my new 2001 ML320 to 10,000 miles before the first oil change. I called my service rep. and told him my concerns and he stated that the dealership recommends changing at 5,000 due to city driving. I haven't been that satisfied with his recommendations in the past and asked to speak with the head service engineer. He also stated that it would be a good idea to bring it in at 5,000 to have the oil changed due to my high level of stop and go driving. Thanks to all for keeping these informative postings alive.
is intact - my faith in their bean-counter bosses isn't.
Here are some simple facts - since you're a engineer, I'm assured you understand and appreciate them:
-MB pays for 4 years worth of maintenance. -MB warrantees the vehicle for 4 years. -MB profits from the reselling and repair of older vehicles.
How much would you be willing to bet (and I would have to dig deep inside MB to prove it, but what the heck, it would be fun!) that the FSS intervals were calculated, based on driving mileage and oil viscosity, such that only a fixed number of changes would occur in a 4 year period, independent of driving habits?
I'm willing to bet the house - I'm sure that if you worked an MB day and night, in stop and go traffic 24 hours a day (humor me; this is hypothetical), that you would still get about 8-10k miles out of that oil - as opposed to a non-stop, 4 hours per day highway commute running at an even 55 MPH speed for the entire duration.
This, despite the fact that the oil in case 1 would break down about 7k miles sooner than in case 2.
It's a sad fact that engineers don't have the ultimate say in how things are designed. I'm sure the periods between changes would be shorter, except someone figured out the cost of having an extra oil change per year, per vehicle, to be some astronomical amount, that MB didn't want to foot.
Furthermore - they also figured the number of failures within the warranty period didn't jump significantly, such that they could let those engines break down, and ultimately, either repair them (at a profit; out of warranty) or have the vehicles get traded in, so they can resell and make a bigger market in second-hand vehicles.
The bottom line:
I think it's unwise to follow the FSS as religion. That's preference; some people wax their cars, other's Zaino. There's no proof either way which is superior, except personal preferences.
I think it's downright *foolish* to change oil, regardless of driving habits, every 3000 miles. Of course, some people think it's foolish to spend 40k+ on a car. To each his own.
But there's no reason to come along and accusing people of wasting oil. If they're of the belief that an engine will be spared, then they're doing their part for the environment. The only thing better would be taking the bus.
On another ML list serve, the discussion has focused on people receiving a new updated MCS cds at no cost. Has anyone on this board received theirs? To date, I have not received one, just curious.
Seems like a lot of heat generated by the FSS. 2 cents:
Do not forget that one of the benefits of the 3 valve combustion chamber design, 2 spark plug firings per cylinder and the cleaner non leaded higher octane fuel recommended is a far cleaner engine in terms of carbon and contaminant build up, and therefore longer oil life.
Secondly, while having had the dealer change the oil on my '99 ML320 at 4-5,000 mi. I have reset the FSS several times if they did not simply to better guage the time between changes.
My first Mobil One synthetic change took place on August 9th. I have watched the FSS decline in remaining mileage at what appears to be the same rate as with the dino oil. Driving conditions have remained identical.
It's too early to tell if there is a difference between the two oils and the FSS calculations all else being equal.
I do however have faith in the FSS oil analysis. The kinds of particulate analysis performed have been used by long haul trucking companies for decades. That, augmented by MB's several other variables, should make for a reasonable oil change interval regardless of much more conservative an interval may be preferred by an individual.
I for one will presume a longer interval with the Mobil One synthetic. Just how long will be determined by watching the FSS countdown and comparing it to its former change per month per mile again all things being equal.
Comments
IIRC, Castrol Syntec is a hydrocracked oil (a synthetic blend), and not a true man-made synthetic. Many have said that it's not as good as a true synthetic, but yet it's just as expensive.
A manufacturer (at least the European ones) only recommend cycles which have proven themselves in extensive tests. True, there could be a little reluctance on MB's part to change the oil more ofter (because they pay), but 7,500 mls for an oil change interval should be regarded as non-intrusive to a modern engine's life.
As usual, this is my personal opinion, but the recklessness with which some people treat our environment just makes me want to shout out loud.
Drew, do you remember whether the Rex has a "learning transmission", too?
Thanks,
Tarik
Tarik
It won't be $25 if you stick w/ the recommended oil. You need 8.5 qts of synth oil for MLs. That's $32 just for oil when it's on sale ($3.79/qt). Figure anothere $8-10 for filter...
I've had the luxury of being both schooled in engineering and having worked several years at a taxi garage while in college. The results? I've seen machines in labs, and under real world high-stress situations.
I agree - if you do mostly highway driving, 7500 miles is a good *estimate* of when to change the vehicle's oil. However - if you wait that long in stop-and-go NYC traffic, you're doing so at the expense of your engine.
Or how about if you regularly tow a boat? Or if you go offroad into really dirty conditions? Or operate the car 24 hours a day?
Mileage is a good *estimation* of when to change oil, because for 75% of the population, the driving is the same (mostly 12k miles/yr, mostly highway mileage). For the rest, it has to happen more often.
My MO has always been as follows - change during break in period at about 1500 miles. Then, change every season, varying viscosity as required by the manufacturer and the outside temperature. Check the oil regularly to see how dirty it is (that's as hokey as the opacity check of the FSS - but it's used in tandem with understanding your driving habits). If you do tow, or drive offroad, or through high-contamination areas - then change more often. If you're the typical highway/10-12k per year driver, two oil changes per year should suit you just fine.
As for Castrol Syntec vs. Mobil 1 - I'd never use Syntec again. I did once, in an S-10 Blazer I owned with 135k miles (now at 189k). Original engine, ran like a baby. For some reason, at the same viscosity, the Syntec made the engine run rougher, at higher RPM for the same speeds/loads. Engine temperature also increased.
We never had any problems with any of our cars running Mobil 1.
Or - maybe I shouldn't get my hopes up....
Also - does anyone have one that could send me a sample? I'm not necessarily asking for a copy - but I would like to see exactly what the content is like. I don't feel like dropping $100, when all I intend to do to the vehicle is oil changes (I do like to know how my car works though - I'm funny that way).
Are there people who actually do ALL their driving within city limits? Year 'round? No road trips?
Or if you go offroad into really dirty conditions? Or operate the car 24 hours a day?
Now, what is the percentage of SUV owners doing that?
...Mileage is a good *estimation* of when to change oil...
Correct, and I didn't mean to suggest an oil change after precisely 7,500mls, I was merely trying to bring forward the fact that the 3k interval is anachronistic. Whether 5k, 7.5k or 10k depends, as you pointed out, upon your specific circumstances. But there is still enough room for a more responsible mindset towards creating waste.
Tarik
Wolfgang
MH
As far as your concern over waste oil - I wonder how much of this oil is being wasted, and how much of it is being recycled? My guess - a great deal of it.
Regarding the intrusiveness of changing oil at 7,500 miles as opposed to more often - you're off target here. Concerned about waste? Keep cars out of landfills, where waste is a bigger concern. Changing at 7,500 miles or greater is bound to do damage to a LOT of people whose driving habits don't merit it.
I will agree with you that the 3000 mark that most people have burnt into their heads is from a by-gone era. Of course, the requirement these days is deducted from a set of statistical averages, and at any given point will apply to no more than half the driving population.
Sequoiasaurus--Why the lag between build and pick-up at the factory? Is that a Mercedes requirement?
We were offered $26,000 for our '99 ML320 with 37,000 miles. The car does have some scratches and bumps on it though. I checked edmunds and kbb for trade-in values and it seemed pretty fair. Why did you think $28k was not fair? I haven't settled on the deal yet and I want to see what I can bargain for an '02 ML320.
I am in the Chicago area, how about you?
Anyone know any bargaining M-B dealers in Chicago-area??
thanks.
Of course all can expect a detailed summary of my experiences with factory delivery once that occurs 42 days 1 hour and 14 minutes from today.
Yes I'm excited and can hardly wait. And its not even my vehicle its my wifes.
You are right, and I was wrong, the FSS system does use, in part, a dielectric sensor. Here is a link to an article on the topic:
http://www.autotruck.net/ms/archives/1998/1198/1198bnz.asp
Here is an excerpt from that topic:
The key to FSS is a dielectric sensor in the oil pan that sends the computer information on the amount and type of contaminants in the liquid lubricant. It does this by passing a current through the oil and measuring its resistance, which is directly related to the level of contamination. For instance, the more metal particles present, the lower the ohms. The logic also takes into account input on rpm, throttle position, vacuum, and oil and coolant temperatures.
I humbly apologize for my error.
However I stand my ground on oil change frequency. I would point out that the experience of Rajesh, above is one of many. Too many as will be amply demonstrated in the next year or so that result from the useless FSS system. Yes, if you uses your vehicle primarily on the freeway, with light throttle settings, and don't sit in rush hour traffic, you can go longer intervals without oil changes. If you drive in stop and go traffic, frequent oil changes will vastly improve the engine life.
But it's your vehicle. Destroy it if you wish.
As to the person who suggests frequent oil changes is a waste of resources: In the first place, I find it laughable that someone who drives a 2.5 ton vehicle that averages around or under 20 MPG would have the shrewdness of mind to suggest frequent oil changes is a waste of resources. LOL. That aside, and in the second place, by frequent oil changes the odds are staggeringly in favor of much greater engine life than anyone who follows the FSS system. That means that barring accident, my ML will still be in service years after theirs will have burnt more oil than mine has had changed, and will be in a landfill as a piece of trash.
Something to think about.
And BTW, for those of you who do want the best chance at longevity investigate Redline products at http://www.redlineoil.com/
Lastly, Drew, as to how word processors have behaved over the years, yes, in fact, if you look back to Word Star going back to the mid 80's running on both CPM and IBM/MS DOS, Xywrite, PFS Write, Word Perfect, MS Works, MS Word, Nota Bene IBM Word Proof, Lotus Ami Pro, and virtually every word processor since the mid 80's (with the exception of text only processors, such as Brief, MS Edit, Quedit, Desqview Notepad), they ALL insert control codes into the text. Virtually every BBS in operation since about '91 was able to interpret these. The same is true for most web based sights today, including most newsgroups in existence. I have no idea why, outside of laziness or trying to stop people from composing off-line that the folks at Edmunds don't take the time to incorporate this capability into their code. But they don't. As far as recognizing HTML, that too, has been around since about '96, if I remember correctly, and is all but universally incorporated into web sites as well.
Regards
...Tracy
Regarding the development, our Town Hall software is developed and supported by Web Crossing. It probably has something to do with the amount of development money (and those guys charge mega $$$ per hour) that would have to be spent just for the small amount of people want to paste from MS Word without turning off Smartquotes. There are other more evident features that could probably be implemented with the cash ;-)
Good luck,
Drew
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In my clk, there is a 4 by 2 screen under the speedometer, where you can find when your next service is going to be, how many gallons of gas left, your estimate mileage before u run out of gas, etc.
how does ML deliver those info to us?....can't wait to find out myself.
Thanks
it is so sad that many of us have no faith in MB's FSS. Wonder what MB think about that?
Andy
If you don't like the FSS, fine, but don't you think it's a little overbearing to assume that everybody else must share an opinion, just because one can't ditch old habits?
If you wish to further discuss this matter, please take it to e-mail level. BTW, your "research" is (no surprise here) pathetically flawed!
Aggravated Tarik
Funny how anyone who would not think twice about following FSS-intervals in their MB sedan would climb on a soap-box re ML. If FSS does not work, it is a warranty issue and should not be confused with changing oil as per FSS-determined interval.
As an engineer, and someone who knows that 3000 miles is a lot to get out of oil in stop-and-go NYC traffic, I didn't appreciate that comment either.
Tracy beat me to it - if you're so concerned about waste - don't worry about the oil that is so heavily recycled. Get yourself a good Honda CRX and get 40MPG. Then you'll be doing a good thing for the environment.
Has anyone on the forum actually bought this CD? I get this feeling that it is going to be serious overkill, and I'd rather not take the time out to visit the dealer strictly for that.
To say following the FSS is misguided is not correct, or fair to a lot of well minded enthusiasts on this board.
I believe there are valid points all have made, and others can make up there minds without this digressing to a flame war here. We have lost a few great contributors in the past due to an aggressive opinion that put someone(s) out of joint.
Having said that, I'm sure that we have not exhausted all relevant facts and I'm sure that there may be a few links or sites dedicated to this oily topic. Lets be cognizant of peoples feelings, even when "you know they're wrong".
Rob
00 ml320 (following FSS)
86 944 (every 3000-4000K)
flame retardant suit on ;-)
You will get as much out of the oil as an accurately functioning FSS will recommend. It does not matter if you drive stop'n'go in NYC or cruise I-94 in Montana - FSS will calculate YOUR personal interval depending on YOUR oil conditions. In NYC, your FSS will recommend an absolutely different interval then in Montana - maybe even 3000mi! Who knows?
As an engineer, I am surprised you put so little faith in your MB colleagues ;-)
hogster21: Thanks for your comments. The FSS system feeds on peoples reluctance to spend a little money to maintain the longevity of their vehicle(s). Oh and I'm not condemning the system that is in the ML. My comments were condemning the lame-o FSS system in total. At any rate, by all means, do as you wish with your vehicle(s). Please do think of my comments when you find your FSS vehicle needs an engine rebuild or is merely suffering from oil consumption.
I'll spend a little money up front and rest assured that this wont happen any time soon. I would guess this approach would never occur to you, which was the point of my earlier comments WRT those who "believe" in the FSS system.
Regards to the faithful
...Tracy
Who make this 'lame-o FSS' system? Some Hyundai engineers?
If you don't believe in MB. don't buy it! With the money you saved, you can change oil whenever you come back from shopRite if you want to.
:-)
Synth along with FSS is a better combination then each separately or a dinosaur alternative.
Nothing is perfect and can always benefit from an improvement. Look at MY98 vs MY02 ML's ;-)
DMH10
FSS is based on sound scientific/engineering principles. Just because it is also a great selling tool is no fault or to the detriment of MB ;-)
I just checked the oil in my 2 year old ML430 with over 46,000 all-purpose miles. 3FSS recommended oil changes with another to come in about 2,500mi or so. Knock on wood - hard - oil is up to the max and clean as a whistle.
Yes, Tracy, a year ago I have indeed considered comments such as yours, and purchased extended warranty. I chose to follow FSS recommendations and You chose to change oil more frequently - great for you! We all make our own choices and live with the consequences. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not everyone is welcome to impose it upon others.
I believe this thread is very important for prospective and current ML owners. FSS goes contrary to what conventional wisdom (and a lot of marketing, but that's another story) says about oil changes, and old habits die hard. Obviously, there is plenty of passion from both sides of the fence and I, personally, believe both sides are right in their convictions. I do not think you can go wrong by walking on either side of this fence. The choice is up to you. (5 cliches in one paragraph - beat that!)
I have noticed that when I change the oil the FSS does not reset to 10,000 miles to service. I guess it must take other factors into account.
I dug up my MY99 manual, page 88:
"The counter can also be set by any individual. To do so:
1. Turn key in steering lock to position 2.
2. Immediately press button (1 - milage reset) twice within one second.
3. The present status for days or distance is displayed. Within 10 seconds turn key in steering lock to position 0.
4. Press and hold button (1), while turning key in steering lock to position 2 again. The present status for days or distance is displayed once more. Continue to hold button (1).
After approx. 10 seconds a signal sounds, and the display shows 10,000 miles (Canada: 15 000 km) for approx. 10 seconds.
5. Release button (1)."
BMW and the newer Jaguars (I think) also have flexible service systems similar to the MB's. BMW is actually on their second version. The previous one was a lot more simplistic and didn't take into account certain factors.The MB system has been in use in Europe since 1996.
Drew
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MERCEDES-BENZ INTRODUCES FIRST SENSOR FOR ENGINE OIL QUALITY PRESS RELEASE
Wolfgang
I can't help but wonder if the engine rebuilds we heard about were because synth wasn't used. Oh well, we'll know in another year or two...
tlwwso
Here are some simple facts - since you're a engineer, I'm assured you understand and appreciate them:
-MB pays for 4 years worth of maintenance.
-MB warrantees the vehicle for 4 years.
-MB profits from the reselling and repair of older vehicles.
How much would you be willing to bet (and I would have to dig deep inside MB to prove it, but what the heck, it would be fun!) that the FSS intervals were calculated, based on driving mileage and oil viscosity, such that only a fixed number of changes would occur in a 4 year period, independent of driving habits?
I'm willing to bet the house - I'm sure that if you worked an MB day and night, in stop and go traffic 24 hours a day (humor me; this is hypothetical), that you would still get about 8-10k miles out of that oil - as opposed to a non-stop, 4 hours per day highway commute running at an even 55 MPH speed for the entire duration.
This, despite the fact that the oil in case 1 would break down about 7k miles sooner than in case 2.
It's a sad fact that engineers don't have the ultimate say in how things are designed. I'm sure the periods between changes would be shorter, except someone figured out the cost of having an extra oil change per year, per vehicle, to be some astronomical amount, that MB didn't want to foot.
Furthermore - they also figured the number of failures within the warranty period didn't jump significantly, such that they could let those engines break down, and ultimately, either repair them (at a profit; out of warranty) or have the vehicles get traded in, so they can resell and make a bigger market in second-hand vehicles.
The bottom line:
I think it's unwise to follow the FSS as religion. That's preference; some people wax their cars, other's Zaino. There's no proof either way which is superior, except personal preferences.
I think it's downright *foolish* to change oil, regardless of driving habits, every 3000 miles. Of course, some people think it's foolish to spend 40k+ on a car. To each his own.
But there's no reason to come along and accusing people of wasting oil. If they're of the belief that an engine will be spared, then they're doing their part for the environment. The only thing better would be taking the bus.
2 cents:
Do not forget that one of the benefits of the 3 valve combustion chamber design, 2 spark plug firings per cylinder and the cleaner non leaded higher octane fuel recommended is a far cleaner engine in terms of carbon and contaminant build up, and therefore longer oil life.
Secondly, while having had the dealer change the oil on my '99 ML320 at 4-5,000 mi. I have reset the FSS several times if they did not simply to better guage the time between changes.
My first Mobil One synthetic change took place on August 9th. I have watched the FSS decline in remaining mileage at what appears to be the same rate as with the dino oil. Driving conditions have remained identical.
It's too early to tell if there is a difference between the two oils and the FSS calculations all else being equal.
I do however have faith in the FSS oil analysis. The kinds of particulate analysis performed have been used by long haul trucking companies for decades. That, augmented by MB's several other variables, should make for a reasonable oil change interval regardless of much more conservative an interval may be preferred by an individual.
I for one will presume a longer interval with the Mobil One synthetic. Just how long will be determined by watching the FSS countdown and comparing it to its former change per month per mile again all things being equal.
Best of luck,
Drew
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