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Comments
IIRC, Castrol Syntec is a hydrocracked oil (a synthetic blend), and not a true man-made synthetic. Many have said that it's not as good as a true synthetic, but yet it's just as expensive.
A manufacturer (at least the European ones) only recommend cycles which have proven themselves in extensive tests. True, there could be a little reluctance on MB's part to change the oil more ofter (because they pay), but 7,500 mls for an oil change interval should be regarded as non-intrusive to a modern engine's life.
As usual, this is my personal opinion, but the recklessness with which some people treat our environment just makes me want to shout out loud.
Drew, do you remember whether the Rex has a "learning transmission", too?
Thanks,
Tarik
Tarik
It won't be $25 if you stick w/ the recommended oil. You need 8.5 qts of synth oil for MLs. That's $32 just for oil when it's on sale ($3.79/qt). Figure anothere $8-10 for filter...
I've had the luxury of being both schooled in engineering and having worked several years at a taxi garage while in college. The results? I've seen machines in labs, and under real world high-stress situations.
I agree - if you do mostly highway driving, 7500 miles is a good *estimate* of when to change the vehicle's oil. However - if you wait that long in stop-and-go NYC traffic, you're doing so at the expense of your engine.
Or how about if you regularly tow a boat? Or if you go offroad into really dirty conditions? Or operate the car 24 hours a day?
Mileage is a good *estimation* of when to change oil, because for 75% of the population, the driving is the same (mostly 12k miles/yr, mostly highway mileage). For the rest, it has to happen more often.
My MO has always been as follows - change during break in period at about 1500 miles. Then, change every season, varying viscosity as required by the manufacturer and the outside temperature. Check the oil regularly to see how dirty it is (that's as hokey as the opacity check of the FSS - but it's used in tandem with understanding your driving habits). If you do tow, or drive offroad, or through high-contamination areas - then change more often. If you're the typical highway/10-12k per year driver, two oil changes per year should suit you just fine.
As for Castrol Syntec vs. Mobil 1 - I'd never use Syntec again. I did once, in an S-10 Blazer I owned with 135k miles (now at 189k). Original engine, ran like a baby. For some reason, at the same viscosity, the Syntec made the engine run rougher, at higher RPM for the same speeds/loads. Engine temperature also increased.
We never had any problems with any of our cars running Mobil 1.
Or - maybe I shouldn't get my hopes up....
Also - does anyone have one that could send me a sample? I'm not necessarily asking for a copy - but I would like to see exactly what the content is like. I don't feel like dropping $100, when all I intend to do to the vehicle is oil changes (I do like to know how my car works though - I'm funny that way).
Are there people who actually do ALL their driving within city limits? Year 'round? No road trips?
Or if you go offroad into really dirty conditions? Or operate the car 24 hours a day?
Now, what is the percentage of SUV owners doing that?
...Mileage is a good *estimation* of when to change oil...
Correct, and I didn't mean to suggest an oil change after precisely 7,500mls, I was merely trying to bring forward the fact that the 3k interval is anachronistic. Whether 5k, 7.5k or 10k depends, as you pointed out, upon your specific circumstances. But there is still enough room for a more responsible mindset towards creating waste.
Tarik
Wolfgang
MH
As far as your concern over waste oil - I wonder how much of this oil is being wasted, and how much of it is being recycled? My guess - a great deal of it.
Regarding the intrusiveness of changing oil at 7,500 miles as opposed to more often - you're off target here. Concerned about waste? Keep cars out of landfills, where waste is a bigger concern. Changing at 7,500 miles or greater is bound to do damage to a LOT of people whose driving habits don't merit it.
I will agree with you that the 3000 mark that most people have burnt into their heads is from a by-gone era. Of course, the requirement these days is deducted from a set of statistical averages, and at any given point will apply to no more than half the driving population.
Sequoiasaurus--Why the lag between build and pick-up at the factory? Is that a Mercedes requirement?
We were offered $26,000 for our '99 ML320 with 37,000 miles. The car does have some scratches and bumps on it though. I checked edmunds and kbb for trade-in values and it seemed pretty fair. Why did you think $28k was not fair? I haven't settled on the deal yet and I want to see what I can bargain for an '02 ML320.
I am in the Chicago area, how about you?
Anyone know any bargaining M-B dealers in Chicago-area??
thanks.
Of course all can expect a detailed summary of my experiences with factory delivery once that occurs 42 days 1 hour and 14 minutes from today.
Yes I'm excited and can hardly wait. And its not even my vehicle its my wifes.
You are right, and I was wrong, the FSS system does use, in part, a dielectric sensor. Here is a link to an article on the topic:
http://www.autotruck.net/ms/archives/1998/1198/1198bnz.asp
Here is an excerpt from that topic:
The key to FSS is a dielectric sensor in the oil pan that sends the computer information on the amount and type of contaminants in the liquid lubricant. It does this by passing a current through the oil and measuring its resistance, which is directly related to the level of contamination. For instance, the more metal particles present, the lower the ohms. The logic also takes into account input on rpm, throttle position, vacuum, and oil and coolant temperatures.
I humbly apologize for my error.
However I stand my ground on oil change frequency. I would point out that the experience of Rajesh, above is one of many. Too many as will be amply demonstrated in the next year or so that result from the useless FSS system. Yes, if you uses your vehicle primarily on the freeway, with light throttle settings, and don't sit in rush hour traffic, you can go longer intervals without oil changes. If you drive in stop and go traffic, frequent oil changes will vastly improve the engine life.
But it's your vehicle. Destroy it if you wish.
As to the person who suggests frequent oil changes is a waste of resources: In the first place, I find it laughable that someone who drives a 2.5 ton vehicle that averages around or under 20 MPG would have the shrewdness of mind to suggest frequent oil changes is a waste of resources. LOL. That aside, and in the second place, by frequent oil changes the odds are staggeringly in favor of much greater engine life than anyone who follows the FSS system. That means that barring accident, my ML will still be in service years after theirs will have burnt more oil than mine has had changed, and will be in a landfill as a piece of trash.
Something to think about.
And BTW, for those of you who do want the best chance at longevity investigate Redline products at http://www.redlineoil.com/
Lastly, Drew, as to how word processors have behaved over the years, yes, in fact, if you look back to Word Star going back to the mid 80's running on both CPM and IBM/MS DOS, Xywrite, PFS Write, Word Perfect, MS Works, MS Word, Nota Bene IBM Word Proof, Lotus Ami Pro, and virtually every word processor since the mid 80's (with the exception of text only processors, such as Brief, MS Edit, Quedit, Desqview Notepad), they ALL insert control codes into the text. Virtually every BBS in operation since about '91 was able to interpret these. The same is true for most web based sights today, including most newsgroups in existence. I have no idea why, outside of laziness or trying to stop people from composing off-line that the folks at Edmunds don't take the time to incorporate this capability into their code. But they don't. As far as recognizing HTML, that too, has been around since about '96, if I remember correctly, and is all but universally incorporated into web sites as well.
Regards
...Tracy
Regarding the development, our Town Hall software is developed and supported by Web Crossing. It probably has something to do with the amount of development money (and those guys charge mega $$$ per hour) that would have to be spent just for the small amount of people want to paste from MS Word without turning off Smartquotes. There are other more evident features that could probably be implemented with the cash ;-)
Good luck,
Drew
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In my clk, there is a 4 by 2 screen under the speedometer, where you can find when your next service is going to be, how many gallons of gas left, your estimate mileage before u run out of gas, etc.
how does ML deliver those info to us?....can't wait to find out myself.
Thanks
it is so sad that many of us have no faith in MB's FSS. Wonder what MB think about that?
Andy
If you don't like the FSS, fine, but don't you think it's a little overbearing to assume that everybody else must share an opinion, just because one can't ditch old habits?
If you wish to further discuss this matter, please take it to e-mail level. BTW, your "research" is (no surprise here) pathetically flawed!
Aggravated Tarik
Funny how anyone who would not think twice about following FSS-intervals in their MB sedan would climb on a soap-box re ML. If FSS does not work, it is a warranty issue and should not be confused with changing oil as per FSS-determined interval.
As an engineer, and someone who knows that 3000 miles is a lot to get out of oil in stop-and-go NYC traffic, I didn't appreciate that comment either.
Tracy beat me to it - if you're so concerned about waste - don't worry about the oil that is so heavily recycled. Get yourself a good Honda CRX and get 40MPG. Then you'll be doing a good thing for the environment.
Has anyone on the forum actually bought this CD? I get this feeling that it is going to be serious overkill, and I'd rather not take the time out to visit the dealer strictly for that.
To say following the FSS is misguided is not correct, or fair to a lot of well minded enthusiasts on this board.
I believe there are valid points all have made, and others can make up there minds without this digressing to a flame war here. We have lost a few great contributors in the past due to an aggressive opinion that put someone(s) out of joint.
Having said that, I'm sure that we have not exhausted all relevant facts and I'm sure that there may be a few links or sites dedicated to this oily topic. Lets be cognizant of peoples feelings, even when "you know they're wrong".
Rob
00 ml320 (following FSS)
86 944 (every 3000-4000K)
flame retardant suit on ;-)
You will get as much out of the oil as an accurately functioning FSS will recommend. It does not matter if you drive stop'n'go in NYC or cruise I-94 in Montana - FSS will calculate YOUR personal interval depending on YOUR oil conditions. In NYC, your FSS will recommend an absolutely different interval then in Montana - maybe even 3000mi! Who knows?
As an engineer, I am surprised you put so little faith in your MB colleagues ;-)
hogster21: Thanks for your comments. The FSS system feeds on peoples reluctance to spend a little money to maintain the longevity of their vehicle(s). Oh and I'm not condemning the system that is in the ML. My comments were condemning the lame-o FSS system in total. At any rate, by all means, do as you wish with your vehicle(s). Please do think of my comments when you find your FSS vehicle needs an engine rebuild or is merely suffering from oil consumption.
I'll spend a little money up front and rest assured that this wont happen any time soon. I would guess this approach would never occur to you, which was the point of my earlier comments WRT those who "believe" in the FSS system.
Regards to the faithful
...Tracy
Who make this 'lame-o FSS' system? Some Hyundai engineers?
If you don't believe in MB. don't buy it! With the money you saved, you can change oil whenever you come back from shopRite if you want to.
:-)
Synth along with FSS is a better combination then each separately or a dinosaur alternative.
Nothing is perfect and can always benefit from an improvement. Look at MY98 vs MY02 ML's ;-)
DMH10
FSS is based on sound scientific/engineering principles. Just because it is also a great selling tool is no fault or to the detriment of MB ;-)
I just checked the oil in my 2 year old ML430 with over 46,000 all-purpose miles. 3FSS recommended oil changes with another to come in about 2,500mi or so. Knock on wood - hard - oil is up to the max and clean as a whistle.
Yes, Tracy, a year ago I have indeed considered comments such as yours, and purchased extended warranty. I chose to follow FSS recommendations and You chose to change oil more frequently - great for you! We all make our own choices and live with the consequences. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not everyone is welcome to impose it upon others.
I believe this thread is very important for prospective and current ML owners. FSS goes contrary to what conventional wisdom (and a lot of marketing, but that's another story) says about oil changes, and old habits die hard. Obviously, there is plenty of passion from both sides of the fence and I, personally, believe both sides are right in their convictions. I do not think you can go wrong by walking on either side of this fence. The choice is up to you. (5 cliches in one paragraph - beat that!)
I have noticed that when I change the oil the FSS does not reset to 10,000 miles to service. I guess it must take other factors into account.
I dug up my MY99 manual, page 88:
"The counter can also be set by any individual. To do so:
1. Turn key in steering lock to position 2.
2. Immediately press button (1 - milage reset) twice within one second.
3. The present status for days or distance is displayed. Within 10 seconds turn key in steering lock to position 0.
4. Press and hold button (1), while turning key in steering lock to position 2 again. The present status for days or distance is displayed once more. Continue to hold button (1).
After approx. 10 seconds a signal sounds, and the display shows 10,000 miles (Canada: 15 000 km) for approx. 10 seconds.
5. Release button (1)."
BMW and the newer Jaguars (I think) also have flexible service systems similar to the MB's. BMW is actually on their second version. The previous one was a lot more simplistic and didn't take into account certain factors.The MB system has been in use in Europe since 1996.
Drew
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MERCEDES-BENZ INTRODUCES FIRST SENSOR FOR ENGINE OIL QUALITY PRESS RELEASE
Wolfgang
I can't help but wonder if the engine rebuilds we heard about were because synth wasn't used. Oh well, we'll know in another year or two...
tlwwso
Here are some simple facts - since you're a engineer, I'm assured you understand and appreciate them:
-MB pays for 4 years worth of maintenance.
-MB warrantees the vehicle for 4 years.
-MB profits from the reselling and repair of older vehicles.
How much would you be willing to bet (and I would have to dig deep inside MB to prove it, but what the heck, it would be fun!) that the FSS intervals were calculated, based on driving mileage and oil viscosity, such that only a fixed number of changes would occur in a 4 year period, independent of driving habits?
I'm willing to bet the house - I'm sure that if you worked an MB day and night, in stop and go traffic 24 hours a day (humor me; this is hypothetical), that you would still get about 8-10k miles out of that oil - as opposed to a non-stop, 4 hours per day highway commute running at an even 55 MPH speed for the entire duration.
This, despite the fact that the oil in case 1 would break down about 7k miles sooner than in case 2.
It's a sad fact that engineers don't have the ultimate say in how things are designed. I'm sure the periods between changes would be shorter, except someone figured out the cost of having an extra oil change per year, per vehicle, to be some astronomical amount, that MB didn't want to foot.
Furthermore - they also figured the number of failures within the warranty period didn't jump significantly, such that they could let those engines break down, and ultimately, either repair them (at a profit; out of warranty) or have the vehicles get traded in, so they can resell and make a bigger market in second-hand vehicles.
The bottom line:
I think it's unwise to follow the FSS as religion. That's preference; some people wax their cars, other's Zaino. There's no proof either way which is superior, except personal preferences.
I think it's downright *foolish* to change oil, regardless of driving habits, every 3000 miles. Of course, some people think it's foolish to spend 40k+ on a car. To each his own.
But there's no reason to come along and accusing people of wasting oil. If they're of the belief that an engine will be spared, then they're doing their part for the environment. The only thing better would be taking the bus.
2 cents:
Do not forget that one of the benefits of the 3 valve combustion chamber design, 2 spark plug firings per cylinder and the cleaner non leaded higher octane fuel recommended is a far cleaner engine in terms of carbon and contaminant build up, and therefore longer oil life.
Secondly, while having had the dealer change the oil on my '99 ML320 at 4-5,000 mi. I have reset the FSS several times if they did not simply to better guage the time between changes.
My first Mobil One synthetic change took place on August 9th. I have watched the FSS decline in remaining mileage at what appears to be the same rate as with the dino oil. Driving conditions have remained identical.
It's too early to tell if there is a difference between the two oils and the FSS calculations all else being equal.
I do however have faith in the FSS oil analysis. The kinds of particulate analysis performed have been used by long haul trucking companies for decades. That, augmented by MB's several other variables, should make for a reasonable oil change interval regardless of much more conservative an interval may be preferred by an individual.
I for one will presume a longer interval with the Mobil One synthetic. Just how long will be determined by watching the FSS countdown and comparing it to its former change per month per mile again all things being equal.
Best of luck,
Drew
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