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Electronic Stability Program (ESP®) ESP compares the driver's intended course, via steering and braking inputs, to the vehicle's response, via lateral acceleration, rotation (yaw), and individual wheel speeds. ESP then brakes individual front or rear wheels and/or reduces excess engine power as needed to help correct understeer (plowing) or oversteer (fishtailing). ESP also integrates all-speed traction control, which senses drive-wheel slip under acceleration and individually brakes the slipping wheel or wheels, and/or reduces excess engine power, until control is regained.
So its stability control with traction control, not LSD. ESP also integrates all-speed traction control, which senses drive-wheel slip under acceleration and individually brakes the slipping wheel or wheels, and/or reduces excess engine power, until control is regained. Which has to be good because I know my car is much faster with the brakes on and reduced engine power...
Well.. I guess it's still faster than using GRGT (Guard Rail Guidance Technology) or the ARDS (All Roof Drive System)
Now you are getting into a fundamental debate on the merits of stability control, which isn't what the post was about. Since stability control doesn't provide a pass from the laws of physics, it really isn't going to be that much help for a trained driver. That said, in the hands of a 17 year old on a cell phone, it might be very helpful.
Actually, GRGT is a fundamental part of stability control. It makes sure you hit the wall with the front of the car instead of fishtailing and hitting it with the back.
Additionally, when was the last time you saw a passenger car in an inverted position that didn't involve a direct t-bone hit (where stability control isn't going to help a lot) or launching off the road into a ditch (where, since the wheels aren't on the ground, stability control isn't going to help a lot).
The same thing will happen with stability control as with ABS. The type of accident will change (with ABS being widely adopted, rear end collisions went down, single vehicle off road collisions went up.)
In the end, it is what it is. Pull up a stool and cry in your beer with the tradtionalist BMW folks about braking based stability systems ruining a car. With stability control coming online as mandatory, this will affect many other brands too I expect.
I think Paisan's opinion here reflects Subaru's attitude - if it's all about track performance get the STi. True, it's a little unfair for some Gen. 1 WRX owners who preferred the raw feel without the price-tag, but now if those people want a car they can track, they will need to shell out for a real raceable car...
a Miata or an ITR ;-)
Subaru may have taken the correct gamble - namely that the new design will win more new buyers than it will alienate old ones.
As a footnote, I never said the the VDC ABLS was better or faster than a traditional LSD in the hands of a professional driver on a closed course, however where I drive 80-90% of my miles and most folks reading this drive 99.9% of their miles, on the road, VDC will be safer in the end.
-mike
When the moon is in the correct house on leap year when a U is in the letter of the day name...:P I agree with that, just like with ABS some rear-end collisions were avoided, occasionally at the expense of a single-vehicle-off-road accident.
Nor did you refute my claim that either would slow you down considerably.
Now I know you're the guy in front of me on the freeway with his brake lights on
Sorry for over analyzing, its force of habit.
Of course, so would a 65 mpg speed limiter...
65 miles per gallon?
Seriously though, do you really think that in the hands of non-enthusiastic, non-car people, that an LSD is safer than traction control? There are always folks who will fall outside the bell curve and for those people there are STis and Spec Bs.
Do you also believe that people are safer w/o ABS?
It's an age old argument that isn't going to be solved on here ABS, Airbags, Seatbelts, Traction Control, Radial Tires, Disc Brakes, Automatic Transmissions, Synchronized MTs, AWD, FWD, etc. etc.
-mike
In lieu of actually teaching someone to drive, I would suggest a system similar to Mercedes and Volvo that will not physically let the vehicle get close enough to another vehicle to have a collision.
There are always folks who will fall outside the bell curve and for those people there are STis and Spec Bs.
I dunno, I don't think "non-car people" are going to buy a 225 hp turbo vehicle that requires premium unleaded and gets mediocre mileage relative to a Civic. That price bump is pretty intense too.
Do you also believe that people are safer w/o ABS?
Oh heck no. I think ABS is one of the greatest inventions in the 20th century. Now instead of the cell-phone yapping moron behind me crashing into me wheels locked sawing at the wheel, he goes off the road and takes out some shrubs.
I don't have a problem with stability control, I just don't like it being touted as a performance boost. It compensates for lack of driver skill by lowering the overall limits of the vehicle.
Am also curious just how long these packs can "slip" before something overheats in the differential/transmission case.
Does the transmission Oil Cooler compensate?
-mike
In lieu of actually teaching someone to drive, I would suggest a system similar to Mercedes and Volvo that will not physically let the vehicle get close enough to another vehicle to have a collision.
Well this is america and no one wants to learn anythng here!
There are always folks who will fall outside the bell curve and for those people there are STis and Spec Bs.
I dunno, I don't think "non-car people" are going to buy a 225 hp turbo vehicle that requires premium unleaded and gets mediocre mileage relative to a Civic. That price bump is pretty intense too.
The performance of a WRX even w/VDC instead of an LSD is still not even in the class of a civic. It's all about image in this country, same reason people buy non Z06 Vettes, etc. etc. Not everyone needs that top performing vehicle on the ragged edge.
Do you also believe that people are safer w/o ABS?
Oh heck no. I think ABS is one of the greatest inventions in the 20th century. Now instead of the cell-phone yapping moron behind me crashing into me wheels locked sawing at the wheel, he goes off the road and takes out some shrubs.
I agree
I don't have a problem with stability control, I just don't like it being touted as a performance boost. It compensates for lack of driver skill by lowering the overall limits of the vehicle.
Well this is America! We compensate for everything. "No Child Left Behind", equal playing time in school sports for good and bad players so that the kids don't feel bad, etc. etc. VDC will provide a performance boost in lieu of driver skills. If you don't have skills the VDC system will make you a faster better driver. As a track instructor, I would love for everyone to come out to the track and learn how to drive their car properly but unfortunately that's just not going to happen, and in the hands of the average joe, not you or I, VDC will yield better performance and more importantly safer performance on the street, in my opinion.
While we are on the topic, what are your thoughts about the VDC system found in the 08 STi. This includes F/R Diffys AND VDC, a dual mode VDC at that where you can have it Off, On (with throttle control and brake control), On (with only brake control).
-mike
Actually, more along the lines of the kids are starting a small range war in the back seat, the wife is adding to the vocal excitement, it's night, I'm accelerating through the apex of a turn and my outside drive wheel just hit a patch of black ice. A small shimmy and slight power reduction, the DSC light on the dash illuminates briefly, no real drama... I'm around the turn and back to family bliss... True story.
Sure, we like to pride ourselves on be driving enthusiasts. Sometimes real life interferes with the purity of the driving experience. I applaud about any technology that keeps my butt on the blacktop, even if doesn't conform to a purist standard.
Is the newer center-diff-less design the best solution for AWD in a car dealing with bad weather?
2.5i with manual transmission: Continuous All Wheel Drive, symmetrical viscous coupling 50/50 power split, Limited Slip rear axle.
2.5i with Automatic 4spd Sportshift: electronically controlled, constantly varying, front bias with Limited Slip rear axle. New starting July 2007 delivery VDC with traction control is standard on 2.5i Limited and 2.5i Limited LL Bean starting 7/07 delivery.
XT turbo with manual transmission: Continuous All Wheel Drive, symmetrical viscous coupling 50/50 power split, Limited Slip rear axle, with VDC and traction control.
XT, 3.0R LL Bean with automatic 5 speed transmission: VDC with VTD all wheel drive. VDC stability system measures variables such as steering input, braking and vehicle angle, and applies individual brakes and/or reduces engine power to counteract skids or slides to help keep you in control. VTD variable torque distribution varies the power 45/55 front-rear, is rear wheel performance balanced.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
4EATs = 80/20
5EATs = 45/55
STi = Variable w/Lock to 50/50
-mike
-mike
The above is Edmunds comment after checking out the Lancer Ralliart with its front mechanical Helical LSD, rear mechanical LSD and center Active Differential, while Subaru has cheapened the 2008 WRX by eliminating the prior model's rear Viscous LSD and in case of the 4EAT, eliminating the center Differential and the rear LSD. Way to go Mitsubishi.
Soggy WRX to an early refresh.....Ouch !!!
Frankly, the Subies are outclassed by any measure, when we evaluate the re-designed Impreza/Lancer versions. :sick:
Despite the fact that people are upset about the decontenting of the new WRX, it set better performance handling numbers in tests didn't it?
I'm drooling, can't stop thinking about diesel Subaru's.
The last nail in the 08 WRX's coffin was the fact that its direct competitor, the Ralliart Lancer, has come out with AWD hardware that resembles the one in the STI, while the WRX has cheapened and downgraded its hardware when compared to prior years....slimmer tires, 4-piston/2-piston brakes of the prior version going down to 2-piston/1-piston versions, removal of rear LSD in the 08 and a variety of other cheap-shots that Subaru hoped no one would notice. Well, the buying public certainly seems to have noticed. When Mitsubishi introduced a game-changer with the Lancer EVO/Ralliart, Subaru introduced a wet dishrag.
I am still gung-ho about the STI, with the only factor holding me back being the high price of entry. If the base STI version was at the $30K mark (roughly the price at which the prior version sold with Forged BBS wheels et al), it would have been a lot more palatable...at $35K, several other options come to mind, unfortunately (for the STI).
Frankly, if the Lancer EVO came in wagon format, I would not even be looking at the STI at all, even though I have had several Subarus in the past. Unfortunately, the Lancer is Sedan-only and I am not interested in a Sedan. I am waiting and watching.
As for the brakes and LSD, it's been proven to be faster through the slaloms than the previous version, so your arguement there doesn't hold any weight. Sorry.
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
Subaru has not provided a breakdown for trims on their Impreza sales, yet. I suspect they just don't want to get embarrassed. I'm pretty convinced the record numbers came from 2.5i, which we all agree is a steal. WRX - not so much ... :lemon: They underdelivered, overpriced, and underwhelmed market, managed to alienate their existing base and not pull many more "mainstream-schmainstream" people at the same time - which again we kind of predicted.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
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The incentives are only a sign that Subaru set pricing too high.
Look at the Forester - the base X model is $1200 lower, the LL Bean is $700 lower, for 2009. Hence no incentives needed.
Nail in the coffin - please! Wet dishrag? Give me a break.
Noone can even offer some concrete numbers to support these depressing theories of doom and gloom. Show me the money.
EVO 5 door is here, please go buy one and then go drag down the mood in the Mitsubishi forums.
I can't say we'll miss all the whining. :P
The incentives are only a sign that Subaru set pricing too high.
So? You proved my point. Because either:
1. The price was set too high, but there are still tons of profit after the incentives, it means some idiot thought they could get a home run without delivering real goods - which makes them delusional, especially in slowing economy and increased competition in the segment. Now all they can do is damage control and risk the "domestication" of the brand because of it. As you know, customers learn quickly and will not take "now we are at value price so no incentives are coming" at face value - i.e. shedding the incentives may cost them volume, or:
2. There is no/very little profit left after the incentive - which is much, much worse, because that means they have a true financial loser with no real prospects for improvements (it's a new model, remember? They are supposed to live for a few years and bring profits, aren't they?).
Either way, it's bad when you have to shed 2 grand just to make people look at your reborn legend after just a few month in the marketplace.
And it is "glass half empty" you meant we (i.e. those who dare to not fall in love with that reborn legend) are, not "half full" - I'm sure :P
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I can't believe you actually believe something coming out of NASIOC! I'm member #197 over there but even I know that place is full of 12 year old mentality fools for the most part.
Subaru never breaks down their sales figures.
As for incentives, even Toyota offers incentives. The Tundra which is probably one of the best full size pickups has an incentive and/or financing on it, so what's your point?
-mike
Are you seriously comparing "incentive ground zero" pickup truck market in mids of fuel price crisis aimed at mostly rural and traditionally domestic audience with hot compact segment where many others sell around or above stickers? I can empathize with your desperation to make a point for your (and mine) beloved brand, but please - think before you write - cause that was (to put it mildly) deranged...
BTW, it wasn't me you were quoting, but that's allright. I wish NASIOC was right - they should make some changes quickly or they will move to screamer 3 grand cash plus zero down and zero payment for 12 months... :P
2018 430i Gran Coupe
You simply will put down the brand at all costs my friend, as they say in business, don't let the door hit you on the way out!
-mike
Here (or so I thought) I don't have to pretend that everything is allright. It's only when we tell the truth, we can move forward - or so I thought.
If they make certain choices it's their prerogative and it's yours to like those choices no matter what and praise them here. So is mine to not to and say it loud and clear. I earned it with 26K I shelled out last time. I know, I know - it's less than you, Bob and Juice did, but it was my very first new car and third used, so I didn't have many opportunities.
And, BTW, just for clarity, it's not the brand I put down - just their marketing and planning team. They should be fired, then hired and fired again - maybe even once more.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I remember seeing the last-generation WRX selling for $20,500 on Fitz, in fact that tempted me to buy one.
The lowest prices now are around $22 grand. So prices are still up $1500.
You can't have your cake and eat it. In one breath you guys say that WRX prices are way too high compared to the 2.5i, and then you say the incentives are huge and they are losing money.
Which is it? Are prices too high? Or too low?
Are incentives too high, so prices are too low and they are losing money?
Make up your minds.
At least I've been consistent. I said all along, prices were set high, with room for incentives in mind from the get-go. Very predictable, IMHO.
paisan made a good point. Sure the pickup market is brutal, but the Tundra had more than $7000 in incentives (including financing) recently. $7 grand!
The $2 grand on the WRX is a drop in the bucket in comparion.
Which is it? Are prices too high? Or too low?
It can be both at the same time. If your cost is higher than your competition, you may set up initial price too high for the marketplace to bear, i.e. competition may have better product for less just because they know how to make it cheaper. Then forced by the negative market response, you lower the price by incentives just to remain competitve - which of course comes at expense of profitability. Not very hard to understand, as we have several showcases in domestic manufacturers. Their product is too expensive for its value (asking price), hence it has to be discounted, which pretty much destroys profitability. Moreover, the incentives prove to be a trap for the manufacturers over and over - and it looks Subaru is falling to it deeper and deeper each year.
The trick is to have it product that is both profitable and desired by the market at mabufacturer's price level. Subaru's WRX is definitely struggling with that right now.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The GTI and MazdaSpeed3 seem cheap, but they're FWD. The R32 costs a fortune and performs more like the WRX than the STI. VW is OK only because the supply of that model is very, very small.
Honestly, I think they have to stop trying to increase sales volumes, as it's only gotten them in trouble.
The rumored WRX-based Celica could be a big help. They could build it in Gunma next to the WRX, and get some economies of scale. Make it RWD to save on costs a bit (no front halfshafts, simpler and lighter front end, cheaper production). Use the same engine, again more economies of scale.
Market it as a Toyota (maybe even Scion?) so it would not fly in the face of Subaru's AWD image.
That's win-win.
Just get creative on how to spread the costs a little. I just don't like it that they keep trying to increase sales volume when the market overall is tanking badly.
On price - Mazda3 seems to be the most appropriate comparison choice. Its MSRP for loaded version was barely topping 25K. Add AWD for 1500 so you get 26.5K-27K for virtual car that has more hp, more equipment and is frankly better looking than 28K "premium" WRX. That was my base of complaint for being overpriced. The 2 grand incentive brings it to comparable levels and selling at invoice may just tip the scales a bit (MS3 is going for sticker for most part). My complaint was, it should have been there at the first place. The real question is whether the 28K price tag was an "honest" assessment of cost or "dishonest" attempt of squizzing more profit than "reasonable" (I'm putting quotations here on purpose, so we don't get into semantic discussions, OK?). If it was the former, they are in trouble (cost overruns), if latter, it was a marketing blunder and insult to intelligence of the customer (did they really think we would bite?).
I don't know which one it ultimately is (we will see it in a few months when financial reports come - not only volumes). Either way - they have something to think about and I honestly believe I have something to complain about.
Again - it's not that I'm dismissing the car completely. Some aspects (clear taillights or not-so-hot transmissions) I could live with, but some other ones would have to be fixed (interior - just give me Legacy consoles and gages and I'm happy, sunroof/leather availability), before I would seriously consider it. But also to be honest to myself - I was lost to WRX even before the change, as I really want a midsize wagon, not compact (even larger one).
So it is academic to me, anyway. I'm more pissed on them for striking Legacy wagon and manual trannies than for anything else. Those other things simply add insults to the injury.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
It's gone. Period. Too late. We don't like that they cancelled it, but I didn't buy one, so I can't complain. Two Subaru Crew regulars (Lucien and Frank) have that model, but Edmunds members do not represent the mainstream well. Apparently they bought 20% of the production for an entire month.
And remember, the US gets the 2.5T, because other markets got a 2.0l turbo Forester. So it was 10 cars, globally. For a whole month.
It's dead.
I'm sure they would bring up similar arguments for the Legacy wagon manual, then the wagon entirely, the Outback sedan, the Baja, then whatever other favorite model you had.
Go buy one of the last few 2008 Forester XTs while you still can.
It's hard to be able to make money while chasing the enthusiasts' dollar. You used Mazda and example, and so will I. Remember in the mid 90s, when Mazda had the RX7, the Miata, a tiny V6 MX3, a gorgeous MX6 coupe, a 626 V6 mid-size mainstream sedan with (GASP!) a manual transmission?
Mazda lost money like mad. They nearly didn't survive.
You wonder how long the MazdaSpeed series will last. The 6 failed. They will do a Miata soon. If you like the 3, hurry up and buy it now before they come to their senses.
I'll venture to guess that Mazda loses money on every MazdaSpeed3 that they sell.
I kind of doubt that. The 3 is already a decently selling, low priced car. The engine for the Mazdaspeed version had already been developed for the MS 6 and is being used in the CX-7 also. That keeps the development and tooling costs spread out. Most MS 3's are selling for sticker. I was happy to pay that for the first time in my life. I don't think they're making a HUGE profit on the MS3, but some.