Honda CR-V Rear Differential Problem?

blueiedgod

You apparently believe that Honda's staff isn't smart enough or educated enough to publish an owner's manual that reflects the nature of the vehicle, including one with a Honda RT4WD differential.
If it happens that they've produced a differential that needs its oil changed and its clutch plates burnished every 7,000 miles or so, they screwed up. (And I expect they know it.) They seem to believe the engine needs oil changes every 10,000 miles. And of course a differential would be expected to go much longer between changes, even one named R2-D2 or whatever.

Two words: Marketing and Accountants.

When you have engineers design a very good product and then hand it off to Marketing and Accountants, they are bound to mess it up.

I have Owner's manuals for the 83 Magna and 88 Prelude, and Honda sent sticky pages to paste over the ones in the book. But, with the addition of Lawyers to the corporate staff, they won't do it, because it would be equivalent to admission of guilt.

So, now it is 3 words; Marketing, Accountants, and Lawyers.

stever

The times I've seen sticky pages in owner's manuals, it was part of a TSB to correct errors or omissions. Quick example for an '04 CR-V (first item).

judylink

Often times there are metal shavings found in the oil. Is the oil causing the diff to break down or is the diff contaminating the oil? That screws up your nifty equation.

blueiedgod

Often times there are metal shavings found in the oil. Is the oil causing the diff to break down or is the diff contaminating the oil? That screws up your nifty equation.

Diff breaksdown the oil with use. Anyone living where they activate AWD should be changing fluid about once a year.

Metal shavings would indicate that someone waited too long to change fluid, and ignored the early warning signs.

tedtcb

Let’s see, I have 64K on my 06 and last month I had my Diff clutch burnished and “Dual II Pumped” for the third time. The first time by Honda for free and the two other times by my trusty mechanic who follows the TSB to the letter.
I suppose if my CR-V was my first Honda I might be miffed about this rear diff issue, but since it’s my 15th or so since 1977, I’m as big a fan as ever…And will remain so.

blueiedgod

Let’s see, I have 64K on my 06 and last month I had my Diff clutch burnished and “Dual II Pumped” for the third time. The first time by Honda for free and the two other times by my trusty mechanic who follows the TSB to the letter.
I suppose if my CR-V was my first Honda I might be miffed about this rear diff issue, but since it’s my 15th or so since 1977, I’m as big a fan as ever…And will remain so.

Sounds about right, change the fluid once a year and the car is happy.

tedtcb

Just changed front breaks/[email protected] 64K
Drove from the Catskills to Burlington Vt last Sat got close to 29 mph on the way up(Just me and my wife) and with one extra person on the way back (80mph) for 235 Mi about 24 MPH
The 29 was the best I ever got.

jpettibone

So, if you add the rear differential to the A/C problem, plus the transmission sensors that people have had problems with, is this still a reilable car? Or, at the very least, has it been below Honda's high level of quality?

Honestly, next to a Neon that I was a fool to buy, the cr-v has been the least reliable car I've owned.

Also, nice to see blueiedgod over here trumpeting reliability in the face of evidence again. He really gets around these message boards.

blueiedgod

Also, nice to see blueiedgod over here trumpeting reliability in the face of evidence again. He really gets around these message boards.

I know, it is just too much to ask people to maintain their vehicles as they are supposed to. How dare a manufacturer require people change their fluids and oils on schedule.

I agree, once you buy a vehicle, it should run a million miles without the owner spending a penny or taking it into the shop, and preferrably all done on the same tank of fuel....

alas, the reality bites....

vincel1

Hi I'm new to the forums, I usually don't join but just browse the useful info. But I'm considering a 2009 CRV AWD auto. Has there been any differential problems with the later model CRVs? The service bulletin addresses the 02 - 07 model years.
Thanks, vincel

mickd

I have an 07 CRV with 62K miles ( 1/2 are hwy). I had the diff. fluid changed at no cost at 32K because it was making noise. I have not had to do it again. As far as mileage. I often get 30mpg on trips going over mountains on the east coast. I got 35mpg drive across the flat midwest on HWY 90 last year (60mph) and got 40 mpg (65-70mph) one day on the way back east across the flats with a stiff tailwind. I was amazed. I put on new tires with an aggressive tread last fall and the mileage dropped by 3 mpg overall. Bummer, but the tires are good in snow and rain. Hope I get as good an mpg this summer when I drive west again.

tedtcb

As I said before jpettibone, were this my first Honda I would probably be "Miffed" at the unusual number of irregularities that have plagued this model…Personally, I’ve had no problems other than the rear Diff and a fuel tank sensor.
The fact is the CR-V is still the top selling Crossover SUV and I continue to see Vs of all generations on the road.
If anything needs to be done by Honda it would be to offer all of us (Consumers and Retailers) “Transparency” when it comes to problems that are universal to the model.

tedtcb

Sorry I missed your post Mick
Your reported MPG is outrageously phenomenal...with what octane?
t

jpettibone

This was my first Honda, and we were pretty upset at the reliability of this car. I very much agree with your last point- I wish they would at least come clean on the AC compressor issue. When there is a single violation of a rule, people tend to either think of it as an exception that does not disprove the rule, or they defend the rule to the point of excluding data to the contrary. I don't see how anyone could see the last model CR-V as anything but sub-par reliability wise for Honda standards, although maybe not by GM standards. Just look at consumer reports for the '02 to '05 year, and you'll see a handful of black and open circles- unheard of for Honda products. If they'd be honest about this, then I'll take it as the exception and continue to buy honda. But to continue to bang the gong of user error, especially when that claim is not falsifiable by the user? I did not expect that from Honda either.

jpettibone

Not what I said at all. You are arguing against a stereotype- not me.

Francisder

My 2006 CRV is up to 57K miles, and I thought I should get my complaint in the system before the 60K mark. They first told me that it would be $150, especially because they would have to change the fluid 3 times, and I had sure waited a long time to get this done.

When I came to pick it up, they didn't give me the bill, they just walked me over to the cashier. When I finally got to see it, I pulled out the TSB (thanks to whoever posted it) and said "This tells me it is under warranty". They answered "This tells me it's not". I said "Why? the car is less than 5 years old, and less than 60,000 miles. This is a drive train problem." Then, he looked at me and said, "You have a point, let me write out a new bill for you." And he did. For zero.

It looks as though they try a couple of times to get you to swallow their warranty cost, and see if you back down. If you don't (and it sure helps to have a copy of their TSB) they change gears, presumably pretending it was an honest error. Another dealer (the one I had bought the car from) had also told me on the phone this was maintenance, not warranty work.

I'm happy with the outcome, but still annoyed they try this sleazeball crap.

Thanks for all the discussion. Without this board, I would never have had enough info to exercise my rights.

F

mickd

Just regular 87 octane. I got this before I hit the states with higher ethanol in their fuel. My tires needed to be replaced by the time I got back. Tire tread REALLY makes a difference.

vincel1

I'm considering a 2009 CRV AWD auto. Has there been any differential problems with the later model CRVs? The service bulletin addresses the 02 - 07 model years.
Thanks, vincel

dtstof

I have a 2007 CRV, and have owned 2 Accords over the years. I live in SOCAL and don't need AWD, even though my last car was an Audi Quattro and ran flawless without any yearly differential oil changes or problems. If I needed an AWD vehicle, I would have not chosen the CRV. I am really surprised that Honda has not changed the design. Must be economics...
Poor excuse.

tedtcb

Mickd writes: Just regular 87 octane.
Do you notice an increase in acceleration/MPG when /or of you use Plus or Premium..I absolutely do, but then again it could all be psychological or just plain psycho

blueiedgod

I have a 2007 CRV, and have owned 2 Accords over the years. I live in SOCAL and don't need AWD, even though my last car was an Audi Quattro and ran flawless without any yearly differential oil changes or problems. If I needed an AWD vehicle, I would have not chosen the CRV. I am really surprised that Honda has not changed the design. Must be economics...

Sounds like someone has no clue what the difference is between "quattro" and "Real Time 4WD"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_(four_wheel_drive_system)

http://www.hondanews.com/categories/844/releases/3653

Ignorance is truly bliss...

Two completely different system using different approaches and different technologies. Very similar to someone complaining that apples taste like oranges, while in reality one is eating an orange, but thinks it is an apple. :surprise:

dtstof

Fortunately I do know the difference. Thank you for the information. Bottom line here is : "Real Time™ 4WD is also low maintenance. The Maintenance Minder system will indicate that the dual pump fluid should be changed at about 60,000 miles. " From the posts on this board, Honda has failed,

isellhondas

This differential "problem" has been blown way out of proportion as is common on these boards.

The guys in our shop do suggest 30,000 mile rear diff oil changes instead of the 60K in the manuals. Not expensive to do.

courtney89

I have 'spoken' out on this site several times about this issue. Pay attention to your car, listen to your car. Without being on this thread, I heard the noise, took it to the dealer and got it fixed. I've had 6 Honda's, two of those being CRV's. At one pointed I traded in a year old mini van for a civic - I missed my Honda. I'm sorry to say I haven't treated them with the utmost care, but have used the adage if it ain't broke, don't fix it. My civic after 10 years and little maintenance - one break job and one muffller, sold for in 2 days for an amazingly high resale value. That's when I bought my first CRV. I agree this has been blown out of proportion, Judylink will respond to this no doubt, but I have decided I am finished listening to this and won't be sent any more notations from this thread - Judy, I'm glad you weren't hurt in your wreck, hope your latest car is doing well and that the maintenance doesn't need anything other than a bell or whistle that goes off when your car needs something.

tedtcb

Not to beat a dead horse and to stay out of typical BBS flame zones, the rear diff problem wouldn't be a problem if Honda had addressed the issue from the get go.
In reality, it isn't the Dual Pump fluid or the rear diff design, they are contributing factors obviously, the real problem (as always) is the misinformation, disinformation and general angst of “Not knowing”…all products of Honda Corporate policy.
Yes, Judy had a catastrophic failure, but that’s way the exception.
Would I buy another CRV….No, I don’t like the seats, I find it unconscionable that Honda did not include intermittent (variable) wipers on the Leather SE O6 version as well as other nitpicks but none of the reasons are mechanical in nature.

yarmie

My '05 Honda CRV manual "suggests" a 90,000 rear diff. oil change, and it cost me $80.00 and that was for one oil change not two that is recommended, why so expensive? I can get my engine oil changed for $17.99. And, why couldn't Honda even have the curtesy to inform us that there is a problem. Maybe you are, but I'm not used to having my oil changed front and back. I feel deceived by Honda, and my local dealership, Piazza Honda in Reading PA, told me it was a misprint in the manual because they were afraid I was going to ask for it free.
Maybe this is all overblown, but on principal, I'm angry about it. I don't like being deceived, lied to and treated like I'm stupid!

isellhondas

How do you get an oil change for 17.99?

Sopme people go the 90,000 miles without changing the rear diff oil and have no problems. I listen to the guys in our shop and I change mine every 30K and have had no problems like the majority of people.

Big difference between changing engine oil and diff fluid!

mickd

The only time I've used a midgrade gas was in Minnesota. Their midgrade has a higher Ethanol content and was cheaper than the regular gas but I didn't see any difference in MPG or acceleration. Just go back from a 300 mile trip from PA to Md over the mountains and the best MPG I could get was 28.5. Still lots of tread on those new tires!

blueiedgod

My '05 Honda CRV manual "suggests" a 90,000 rear diff. oil change, and it cost me $80.00 and that was for one oil change not two that is recommended, why so expensive? I can get my engine oil changed for $17.99. And, why couldn't Honda even have the curtesy to inform us that there is a problem. Maybe you are, but I'm not used to having my oil changed front and back. I feel deceived by Honda, and my local dealership, Piazza Honda in Reading PA, told me it was a misprint in the manual because they were afraid I was going to ask for it free.
Maybe this is all overblown, but on principal, I'm angry about it. I don't like being deceived, lied to and treated like I'm stupid!

Honda corporate does not really have too much control what goes on at the dealership level, unless customer brings it to their attention. The TSB clearaly states that differential fluid changes prior to the scheduled ones are covered by the warranty, and are eligible for out of warranty consideration.

Problem is greedy dealers. Dealers are individually owned and operated. And I would not be surpized that some are billing Honda for fluid changes as well as the customer.

As to the $17.99 oil changes... It costs me about $5 to do an oil change with Group III synthetic oils (Mobil1, Pennzoil Platinum, Quaker Horsepower, Valvoline, Castrol Syntec), and Honda flter.

While the 2 bottles of differential fluid and 2 crush washers are about $9. I usually buy 4 bottles for 4 changes.

The best is to do it once a year, along with tranny fluid change, and brake cleaning. It takes me a good chunk of saturday morning to do oil and filter, air filter, cabin filters, differential, tranny, rotate tires, and clean and lubricate brakes moving parts, but then it is done for the year.

05 should have had its brake and power steering fluids changed last year, as well.

njlou1960

Well, add another to the list. I encountered the same "grinding" noise, a friend said it could be the differential. I did my net search, found this forum as well as others before taking in my CRV to the dealership. When I took it into the dealership, they told me they would look at it and let me know. They called me 2 hours later and told me the differential fluid needed to be changed (32k), would do it for free. That is when I told them I was aware of TSB07-21 and and TSB07-24. During my conversation, the :"shift" was always towards consumer blame on behalf of the dealership and claimed that the manual does state changes every 15-20K(not). They agreed to do the fluid change and burnishing free of charge this time, but told me there would be a charge in the future, as if they expect it to happen again. My main concern is what happens if the differential locks up? I have the Honda Care extended warranty, but it states that "mechanical breakdowns due to contaminated fluids are not covered". The way Tsb07-24 is worded is "noise from contaminated fluid" appears to indicate a loophole for convering differential replacement resulting from their problem. Should I contact Honda Corporate? Concerned my $$$ was wasted on the extended warranty for defective craftsmanship................

mickd

I have a 2007 CR-V. I heard the grinding sound on sharp turns and had the differential fluid changed at no charge (after some discussion) at my dealership. That was at around 30K miles. The sound has not returned. I now have 63K miles and am planning a cross-country road trip soon so I made an appointment to have the fluid change again. The cost will be $59.99. I don't think this is unreasonable. This is my 2nd CR-V and 3rd Honda. No, I have never had to do this with any of my other cars. Sure, it would be nice if Honda admitted that there is a problem here. But Honda makes great cars. I will continue to own Hondas and considering the low cost of owning a Honda in general, I will just consider this maintenance, just like oil changes. (What bothers me more is NOT changing my oil every 3-4K miles).

tedtcb

Mickd Writes: (What bothers me more is NOT changing my oil every 3-4K miles).

Why don't you? I change my oil every 3K, always have, always will

blueiedgod

Well, add another to the list. I encountered the same "grinding" noise, a friend said it could be the differential. I did my net search, found this forum as well as others before taking in my CRV to the dealership. When I took it into the dealership, they told me they would look at it and let me know. They called me 2 hours later and told me the differential fluid needed to be changed (32k), would do it for free. That is when I told them I was aware of TSB07-21 and and TSB07-24. During my conversation, the :"shift" was always towards consumer blame on behalf of the dealership and claimed that the manual does state changes every 15-20K(not). They agreed to do the fluid change and burnishing free of charge this time, but told me there would be a charge in the future, as if they expect it to happen again. My main concern is what happens if the differential locks up? I have the Honda Care extended warranty, but it states that "mechanical breakdowns due to contaminated fluids are not covered". The way Tsb07-24 is worded is "noise from contaminated fluid" appears to indicate a loophole for convering differential replacement resulting from their problem. Should I contact Honda Corporate? Concerned my $$$ was wasted on the extended warranty for defective craftsmanship................

How is changing differential fluid a defective craftsmanship? Sounds like part of regular maintenance regimen.

However, since we are all experts on what defective craftsmanship and what is not, on these boards...

Please tell us, in your expert opinion, what do you expect the dual pump fluid to last (distance and time) in this particular application?

Also, what chemical modifications would you, as an expert, perform to prolong the life of the dual pump differential fluid?

Perhaps provide a sample chemical formulation for the new and improved dual pump fluid that satisfies the regimen outlined in the first suggestion.

Feel free to use organic and inorganic friction and viscosity modifiers, and bear in mind the cost limitation of the per quart value that average consumer is willing to pay.

Thank you. Looking forward to expert's advice.

:shades:

stever

The fluid should last as long as the owner's manual says it should. I assume Honda breaks it down by miles/time and normal or severe service. Is the manual wrong?

tedtcb

Steve writes: Is the manual wrong?

You're joking right?

stever

No.

And I change my oil every 7,500 miles too. Just like my manual says to do. Any more frequent is just a waste of good oil imo. I guess it's fine if you are one of those oil change hobbyists but that's not me.

Why wouldn't you want to follow the service recommendations as published by Honda. Don't you trust their engineers?

mickd

The last time I had the oil changed (at around 5K/ 60% on the maintenance minder) the mechanic said I was wasting my money to do it more often than when the maintenance minder got down to 20-30%. He said he used to work for a Honda shop and these cars are so "efficient" that the oil just doesn't need to be changed more often. I am old school and it just feels WRONG to go that long. But I am not the expert...

tedtcb

For my first 15- 20 years as a Honda owner, I changed the oil myself.
For the least 10-15 my mechanic does a “service” every 3K. We drive 240 miles a weekend up north and back and the way I figure it, yes, it’s overkill, but no one ever robbed life from a vehicle by changing the oil too much.

Did I forget to mention that I also change my transmission fluid with every fill up?

tidester

Did I forget to mention that I also change my transmission fluid with every fill up?

Weren't you the guy who said you could change your transmission fluid in 30 seconds flat? :P

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

tedtcb

No tidester, you're confusing me with some other lunatic

t

isellhondas

Some people are adverse to spending one more nickle on maintenance than they have to. Those maximum numbers are for those kind of people. Other people like to take better care of their cars than that.

So, how much longer will an engine last that has had 3-4000 mile oil changes vs. one that only gets an oil change every 7500 miles?

I don't really know. I do know they guys in our shop change the oil in their own cars pretty often.

stever

The Europeans have been on 10k plus oil change intervals for lots longer than the US and I can't believe their engineering and oil standards are that much better than ours, or that they have worse driving conditions. My van has 132k on it with 7,500+ mile intervals on the oil, and one drain and fill on the transmission, and I think it's more likely to die from non-oil or transmission fluid related causes.

The data I've read over the years (the infamous CR taxi study and all the fleet reports) doesn't show that more frequent fluid changes increases the life of the drivetrain for most people.

If Honda's engineers thought that the pumpkin needed to be lubed every 30k, I think they would have put that in the owner's manual.

isellhondas

If Honda's engineers thought that the pumpin needed to be lubed every 30K I think they would have put that in their owner's manual"

Yep but different people drive their cars under different condtions. If I still lived in So. Calif, it is doubtful that our CRV would ever engage 4WD. In that case the fluid maight last the life of the car.

In a snowy climate or under hard use, 90,000 might be pushing it.

It snows here sometimes so I changed mind at 30K. Not expensive to do and no big deal!

blueiedgod

If Honda's engineers thought that the pumpkin needed to be lubed every 30k, I think they would have put that in the owner's manual.

Apparantely, the maintenance minder system does require differential change at around 15,000 miles now, and people are complaining about it being too often.

You can't win.

scrapperanne

We have the opportunity to purchase a 2005 CRV EX with only 29K miles on it at a very good price. The ownership record is as good as one could ask for (one owner, purchased/serviced regularly and traded in for the newest same model all at the same dealership from which we're looking to purchase). I had seen the Consumer Reports ding on the '05/'06 and began investigations which led me to this thread. :-}

I've read each and every post to date. I'm naturally inclined to lean toward the group that views this as a maintenance issue realizing we need to change the differential fluid more often than the manual may state. My husband is a most competent DIYer. Is the fluid change/clutch burnishing something he should be able to contend with himself? My biggest concern there is his time. It is valuable to us and we'd need to decide, based on time required, whether it's worth it to take it in to the dealership to do.

Past that, I guess I'm just looking for a bit more peace of mind since I have just read through all the posts (good and the bad). This car will be for our teen driver (who has learned to drive on our Tundra and Sienna so the size of this vehicle is not an issue). We shopped primarily for VSC and our journey has led us to this car which is being "certified" (7 yr/100,000mi power train warranty) in the Honda shop Monday.

We're to test drive it Tuesday am after the certification process and detailing are complete. Meanwhile, my sister in law test drove it yesterday. (The dealership is out of town from us but where she lives). She noted an intermittent noise that seemed to emit from the front left tire at around 40 mph but nothing like what has been described in this thread that others have experienced with their rear differential.

The salesman informed me that, due to the already terrific price on the vehicle, if it needs new tires (he also heard the noise and suspects possible steel belt breakage in the tire) we would need to fund them. We're fine with that (unless, of course, the problem is traced to the rear differential issue). I'll be calling them first thing tomorrow morning to share with them what I've learned and to make sure that that aspect (RD) of this car is thoroughly evaluated. Is there anything in particular you'd recommend I say?

Past that, with reason, please share your thoughts on the reliability/serviceability of this particular car for our teen driver. (I'm sure there will be a few in this thread who would respond with something to the effect "No way, Jose!" because of your individual issues with your car). I'm looking for a more general consensus based on the history of the car over all rather than an isolated incident here or there.

We aim to purchase something for her that will see her through college and would buy new, if necessary, to have a car with the VSC. Meanwhile, we found this one and it has look really good to us thus far, primarily because of the ownership record and the low mileage.

Thanks in advance.

scrapperanne

I meant to ask, too - we live in southeastern United States. How often would you recommend we change the differential fluid if there are no symptoms (groaning/moaning with turns, etc) of trouble?

Francisder

Scrapperanne, I am an owner of a 2006. My only problem with it has been this rear differential problem. The car has been fine otherwise.

If you read the technical bulletin, you will see that the car has to be lifted on a lift and left to run for 10 minutes before the fluid is changed again. I don't know how much equipment your husband has, but this is (in my book) a bit beyond a DIY job.

Francis

scrapperanne

Thanks for the response. Would you buy your car if you had it to do over again? We are long time Honda/Toyota drivers (more than two decades of ownership now) and believe in the relative quality of their products. Have the pros outweighed this con for you in your mind regarding your vehicle?

2001hondacrv

I have a 2001 CRV which I purchased in 2003 with 27,000 miles. I still have my CRV as my only vehicle and it now is getting ready to turn over 80,000 miles. If you are able to get a 2005 with only 29,000 miles on it at a great price, I'd go for it. This will be a fantastic car for your son.

My dealer told me that the rear diff needs to be changed approximately every 15K miles. Now, given that I've put 50,000 miles on my car in the last 6 years, I don't drive it all that much. I've had my rear diff changed twice and it's due again. I live in Ohio, it runs me about $120 to have done and I wait for it.

I've done normal maintenance on my car over the last six years, timing belt change, new clutch, oil changes, etc. and this CRV is absolutely the best car I've had to date hands down (I've had Toyotas and other Hondas as well). I think especially for a teen, this will be a great vehicle in good weather and bad - I have a 16 yo son who is learning to drive now, although isn't able to drive my 5 speed yet, but I wouldn't hesitate to get him the same thing.

Good luck with the test drive - I would ask the dealer to make sure the rear diff is changed before you do take it - when I first bought mine (out of state), they told me it was the brakes, which I had replaced at that time. The rear diff is an easy fix.

scrapperanne

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Our teen driver (a daughter, actually) turns 17 this November. She's not driving actively just yet, either, but when this opportunity presented itself, we couldn't look the other way. I figure if she waits another year to drive, I can at least use this vehicle to escort her to her various and sundry activities and save the mileage on my Sienna which is a 2005 and has $86,000K on it! :P