Is Ford's End Right Behind Chrysler's?

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Comments

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,989
    that reinforces my point.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Too sweet! ;)

    Another excellent decision, passing on redesigning the Focus and 3 together, so Focus could suck up some (but not all) of it's goodness.

    Good Call!

    Another bad decision: The Crown Vic should be made available to every 80 year-old who wants one (that's the real market ;) )!

    Mets win again. (Yawn here.)

    DrFill
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,989
    i am sure it is worth the extra 6k over a focus. :surprise:
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    It's more like 2-3k max, depending on how each is optioned. Remember, now Mazda has the bigger optional engine, optional hatchback config...things that just aren't available on a Focus after the refresh (nav system comes to mind too, I think that's still unavailable in a Focus). Plus the 3 has MUCH better seats, which is also important.

    Why buy the Focus when you can go buy the 3 and get this stuff on an updated platform, instead of Ford's outdated platform without those options? Mazda3, with this stuff, is selling like hotcakes, as well as maintaining high resale value. Focus, cheaper but without this stuff....isn't. Doesn't take a genius to figure this out. ;)
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I've got a Schwinn that's worth $6k more than a Focus. :blush:

    DrFill
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    i am sure it is worth the extra 6k over a focus.

    The Mazda 3 is actually cheaper than the Focus, if you buy it new and sell before it falls apart.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    drfill: Another bad decision: The Crown Vic should be made available to every 80 year-old who wants one (that's the real market )!

    They can still buy a Mercury Grand Marquis.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Cops are not supposed to chase cars. Too many deaths attributed to hot pursuit. They have radios and should have heat seeking missiles for the real bad guys.

    Many of the Crown Vics in CA are CNG to cut pollution. They do not need to be designed for speed. There will always be something faster.
  • john_324john_324 Member Posts: 974
    Totally. Seems as though the real prizes in cop cars are durability and ease of repair..which the Crown Vic nicely meets.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "If only the Five Hundred had a bigger engine, sales would have SOARED!". How do we know that? It's a totally anonymous sedan, which doesn't stand out in any way. Most professional reviews called the power OK, not inadequate.

    It will still be anonymous when it becomes the Taurus, and even with a whole year of sales of the 3.5 under its belt, I don't think it's going to jump way up in sales.

    As for Escape, they CALLED it a "total redesign", but I would like someone in the know to tell me what was redesigned besides the plastic on the ends of the vehicle. It has the same powertrains, doesn't it?

    That is about as TOTAL a redesign as the "new" Focus, going into year eight with nothing more than fewer configuration options and a spiffy new face, not all that different from the old spiffy face.

    I saw an Edge on the street for the first time yesterday - liked the look in person. It seems heavy on paper, and not having a third-row seat in a vehicle like this seems to be a very bad idea.

    When we look at "what's old" at Ford, we see that it is VERY old. When we look at "what's new", it just doesn't seem to be all that.

    From the looks of the new vehicles at Chrysler, it looks like they have pretty much given up, hoping that gimmickry will somehow save their hides. While Ford SAYS they are going full steam ahead, there isn't a lot of hard evidence, seems to me. But hey, it's GRRREAT they're selling the Taurus again! :confuse:

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    You never get a second chance to make a first impression, so putting a good engine into a dog doesn't get rid of fleas at this point.

    Edge is decent, but a CX-7 is more than decent.

    The problem with Ford is always the same. They can't think but five minutes in front of there faces. :sick:

    DrFill
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Am I the only one think that the new Ford "3-bar-grille" only looks decent on Fusion and half-way decent on Edge but looks totally crappy on every other models?

    Just curious.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,989
    what kind of impression is the tundra making with up to 5k on the hood already? :P
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,989
    carmax says different.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I'm sure Toyota's view on this is get the trucks on the street, and word of mouth will do the rest.

    GM is no better, as they are discounting just as much. Name a full-size that isn't pulling out all the stops?

    Perception is everything. If Toyota gets sales numbers up, and more and more are seen on the street, momentum is what Toyota wants.

    I don't think they care how they get the ball rolling, as long as it rolls.

    Last month was a good month. Let's see where things go from here.

    The domestics are no better off, from what I can tell

    DrFill
  • odie6lodie6l Member Posts: 1,173
    You know Ford will probably turn around and pay Daimler what they ask and purchase the entire Chrysler brand (Jeep, Dodge, & Chrysler) and turn everything around.

    Okay, that would only happen in somebody's sick dream.

    Odie
    Odie's Carspace
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Would you call it Cord or Fysler?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Can't call it Cord, I think that name is still owned by someone. And Fysler just sucks. ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Fodge was commonly used when Ford tried to build trucks as ugly as the Dodge Ram.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    is looking for a buyer that will do business with the UAW, not so much for cash. Ford is just about THE LAST company to come through with sweet-talking the union. My money's on Kerkorian to get Chrysler back, all too himself...

    And just a wee fact to throw into the churning mix of Edmunds posting: the maximum cash rebate on any model of the new Tundra is $2000, and there are no incentives at all on the CrewMax models. Sales of the extended cab are zinging along so far, and availability of the CrewMax will now be building up until there is a normal supply at dealers.

    Anyway, Toyota and Dodge are not what Ford is worrying about for the F-150, it is the MIGHTY Silverado!! ;-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Ford lost me a long time ago when they followed Dodge in trying to make a truck look ugly, thinking that was a rugged look. The new Silverado is an improvement on the last few years. Chevy really messed up the front end in about 2002. GM full sized trucks are outselling Ford, and selling better than last year. Ford, Titan and Tundra are all off from last year. Even Dodge is gaining sales this year. The only Japanese truck that is doing better this year than last is the Tacoma. All GM trucks are up this year.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Don't know about this year overall but in March, according to CNN:

    Chevrolet Silverado down 11.8 percent
    GMC Sierra down 18.1 percent
    F-Series down 15.1 percent
    Dodge Ram pickup truck down 5 percent
    Tundra up 7.8 percent

    Looks like Tundra sale is the only one went up in March in the full-size pickup segment.

    Reference: March Sales Data
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Better check year to date sales. Much more significant than one month.

    http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/homesedan.asp
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    YTD isn't important because 2007 Tundras are just now becoming widely available in all body styles.

    13k for Tundra last month is one of it's best months ever, and CrewMax is just now becoming available.

    The 2nd quarter will be much more revealing than the first quarter.

    DrFill
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    I read that as well in AutoWeek a few weeks back. The Tundras that are considered "slow" sellers were the regular cab. The dealers couldn't keep the other configurations on the lots. Also there was mention that most buyers thought the regular cabs had too much equipment, which was taken in one of two ways:

    Most was so used to the regular cabs being bare bones stripper work models from the other makes they didn't know how to react when a regular cab had so much equipment

    Toyota doesn't have a stripper model as bare bones as GM/Ford/Dodge so some thought they were forcing a highly optioned model on them

    The commercials most be working...
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,989
    2k customer cash, 1k trade in assistance, 2k dealer cash. looks like 5k to me.
    i know it is not for every model, but who can say the incentives won't get larger?
    they are having to play the same game as the other truck producers.
    i think all the pickup truck manufacturers are unhappy, right now. the only one i've seen that i can say for sure is an '07, was a ridgeline. it was still shiny underneath.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Even with the sky is falling rhetoric you read Ford is worldwide and not just North America. Ford is doing well in Europe and Asia. Ford of North America is changing and will forever be changed in the coming decade. I see Ford of North America becoming a smaller, leaner, meaner Ford. I see Ford sales equal to about Honda levels in the coming decade. This due to Hyundai, Kia and soon to have Chinese vehicles available to the consumers. I am a Ford fan. But I sure don't see Ford ever being #2 again in the U.S. auto market. I see Ford sitting right about #4 or 5.. Nasser should have started these changes back in the 90's when everyone could see the market shifting. Now Ford needs to make these changes all at once instead of over time. This does not look good to the consumer and the financial folks have a hayday with it. ;)
  • jpmeirjpmeir Member Posts: 4
    The Big 2 1/2 are in denial. They mock the American buyer with terrible cars year in and out. I've traveled all over the world and see Fords on European roads. There good vehicals but can't buy them in the States. Why? Somehow Ford forget the "phrase give them what they want"! Poor leadership, bad designes equal slumping sales. For years America made the best truck in the world..period. Today, we can't make that claim. Instead of giving us well made mid size cars to compete with Asia and Europe we get the "500" or the Tarus.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Just curious, who makes the best truck?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Just curious, who makes the best truck?

    Depends on what you need in a truck. One person's best is another's worst.

    Some want power (Tundra 381 horsepower, 6-speed Auto GREAT, F150 300 horsepower, 4-speed Auto NOT SO GREAT)

    Some want classy looks inside and out (F150/New GM twins tie for the win IMO, Tundra definitely doesn't with its black and white interior)

    Some want the best interior room (Dodge wins with its MegaCab)

    With the Ford F150 being the last to have any substantial updates (along with the Nissan Titan, I believe?), Ford needs to catch up in the acceleration department.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    The Tundra CrewMax trumps MegaCab rear legroom (kinda says it in the commercials).

    First truck with power rear windows in the extended cab ("Double Cab") models, plus fully-independent rear doors. :surprise:

    DrFill
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Thanks, Dodge pretty much said differently in their commercials, or so I thought. I probably didn't listen fully. I'll edit my post if I can!

    EDIT: Just got this from Edmunds.com

    --This makes for a lot of "biggest" and "first" claims for the Mega Cab: The largest, longest cab in its class, at 142.2 cubic feet and 111.1 inches, respectively. Largest interior cargo volume of any full-size pickup, largest second-row legroom

    Apparently this was before they had Tundra measurements?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think you need to look at the comparison here on Edmund's the CrewMax has 2 inches less headroom in back and only 3/10 of an inch more leg room. If you want the most room in the cab vs overall size the Tundra wins out as the Mega Cab is 19 inches longer overall. I looked at the Dodge and liked the rear seats for sure. The truck was too long for my garage. If you want a truck that will seat 6 comfortably the Mega Cab is the only one out there. I will go check out the Tundra Crew Max when the smoke clears and they are giving incentives. Right now they are about $45k before TL. You can get the Dodge Mega Cab for under $38k comparably equipped. Ford and GM do not have a competitor in the class. I think Chevy/GMC beat the class in standard crew cab PU trucks. GM also offers the most power in the Denali 6.2L with 6 speed auto. Lots of choices in trucks.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    is intimately tied up in just how quickly GM can get its act in gear. The moves GM is making right now make me think it is going to all but kick Ford's [non-permissible content removed] right out of North America in the next five years.

    The Cerberus buyout at Chrysler specifies a period of 5 years that Cerberus will invest in future product and pension liabilities at Chrysler, and after that if they haven't turned it around entirely, I am sure we will see Chrysler sliced and diced and sold to the highest bidders.

    That gives Ford the same five years, seems to me. I see good odds that GM will SIGNIFICANTLY infringe on Ford's already-dropping market share and sales in that time period. I do NOT see Ford turning things around by 2009 (as they have stated) with their current plan, in fact I doubt they will have much to celebrate in the next five years.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I have a SR5 CrewMax on my lot for $33k.

    Stop in for a test drive! ;)

    Was surprised when the Sierra Denali with 6.2 still couldn't run with the 5.7 Tundra. :surprise:

    DrFill
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Is Your SR5 the 5.7L with 4WD? It does have leather and NAV, right?

    And what part of the Denali Tail lights were you seeing while driving the Tundra? Texas is a long drive from here. I have one dealer here that is civil. I will test drive one there. I would not want a stripped SR5. The limited would have to be real special to beat out the Denali. I do not See XM even offered. Is this an oversight or is Toyota still in the dark ages. A vehicle without XM is like a vehicle without an engine, almost.

    PS
    I have read about Toyota being XM ready. Then the dealer sticks it to you for a grand. Anything over $200 for integrated XM is a rip-off.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
  • john_324john_324 Member Posts: 974
    What was really salient to me was the point about Ford's dealer network being designed for the environment of more than half a century ago. Guess it goes along with Ford's view of how to best compete in the marketplace... :(

    The thing that kept both of these antique concepts viable, the WWII generation of buyers, is going, going, GONE.

    Best thing Ford NA could do is seriously study how its global subsidiaries manage to do well in the very competitive markets in which they sell.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Ford could do worse than invest some money in increasing Mazda's production capacity and seeding some dealership switchovers to Mazda from Ford. Especially dealerships that are already multi-brand. That way they could reduce the density of the Ford dealerships in regions where that is a problem.

    Not to mention, it has been in the auto news more than once lately that the constriction on sales at Mazda of late has not been demand but rather production capacity nd a restricted number of outlets. Mazda rarely has trouble selling its vehicles - if only it had a bigger dealer network and more vehicles each year to sell, who knows what it might be able to do.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I like that idea.

    I kind of wonder why the local "family of dealerships," which is polite speak for "if you want to buy in town we're about it," doesn't add Mazda. They are already FordLincolnMercury as well as other makes.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • Key being "almost" all. Let's remember, last year's comparable sales figures were themselves nothing to write home about. And GM has cut fleet sales too, but their figures show a real increase.

    Ford has a long way to go to dig out of this hole they voluntarily threw themselves in. Good thing they have the Edge, although it seems to be further eroding Explorer sales. Like the MKX seems to be replacing some of the Nav sales. But at least they have those vehicles to fill in.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Explorer sales are doomed anyway with the move to CUVs. At least Ford is keeping those buyers - this time last year they probably would have switched brands.

    Let's face it - Ford is treading water for the next 18 months until they can implement the changes that started last year.

    Frankly I'm ok with slightly reduced volume IF it means more profit (less incentives). The problem with Ford's average incentives is you have high incentives on a few high profit vehicles like the F150 and Town Car/Grand Marquis where it doesn't hurt that are skewing the overall results. With the Edge/MKX, Fusion/Milano/MKZ and Taurus/Sable/Taurus X I bet the average incentive is around $1000 - which is far below the $3K overall average and is a definite step in the right direction.

    Market share and sales volume doesn't mean anything without profits.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    But the Detroit News says they lose $5 grand on every vehicle they make in North America. So that's a plus - the fewer they sell, the less they lose. Maybe that's the plan?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That's based on a lot of one-time charges for employee buyouts and plant closings which hurt the 2006 numbers but will really help the 2007/2008 numbers. They're replacing little to no profit vehicles like the Taurus with profitable Fusions and Tauri and Edges.

    But I guess you'd rather take things out of context for bashing instead of looking at the real facts.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    "But I guess you'd rather take things out of context for bashing instead of looking at the real facts."

    Well I guess I'm not privy to the 'facts' like you are. Do you work for Ford? I merely repeated what the Detroit News said. They compared Fords' #s to everyone else and once again, Ford came out looking like sh%$.

    I guess you'd rather be a sychophant for crappy, non-competitive product and an apologist for a company recently passed by Toyota in sales, passed by Hyundai in quality and exceeded only by Enron in stupidity of management decisions?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    No, I'd rather take figures like the one the Detroit News published in context (something the Detroit News didn't do either). The one time charges were clearly spelled out when Ford announced their $12B loss last year. This isn't inside information.

    Ford is not even close to being passed by Hyundai in quality - where did you read that?

    Ford's stupid management decisions of the past have now been corrected. In case you didn't hear Fields and Mulally are now in charge and making much better decisions. But you won't see the fruits of these changes across the company for another 18-24 months.

    Try understanding something before you blindly start bashing.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    OK, I'll leave it alone. I can see that Mulally has things in hand, what with renaming the 500 to Taurus and all. That's one of his brilliant decisions, eh?

    Motor Trend this month has the Interceptor on it's cover. Says that it's a make it or break it for Ford. And sets 2012 as release date. It really takes Ford 5 years to get a car out the door? And about 10 to get a decent copy of a successful Chrysler product on the market?

    As for Hyundai, I was referring to the Verzcruz which according to all tests I've seen bests everything in it's class including the Lexus, with the MKX at the bottom of the heap. Does it not bother you that Lincoln can not even compete with Hyundai??? And I havent seen comparos between the MKZ and the Azera, but I think I know how they would turn out.

    Somebody at Ford better start designing and releasing competitve product SOON or even I will be driving a Korean or Chinese import.

    As to the moderator, you expect information that is helpful to prospective purchasers, but you want to prevent the fact that the MKX has inferior brakes to be brought up again? If you applied that rule to all problems and all forums, you'd be down about 80% in total number of posts.
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    "brought up again? "

    I don't have a problem with "again". But again, again & again gets boring, and causes me to question the objectivity and motivation of the poster.

    Venting is OK, but please spare us and do it somewhere else.

    Have you written to Ford expressing your concerns and profound understanding of what they should do, and the mistakes they have made?

    If not, then it's clear that the motivation is to vent, damage Ford, and/or bash, and not to contribute anything positive.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    OK, fine. I'm outta here.

    Everything is hunky-dory with Ford and the MKX can stop on a dime.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I can see that Mulally has things in hand, what with renaming the 500 to Taurus and all. That's one of his brilliant decisions, eh?

    Once again you don't have the facts straight. It wasn't his idea - but he approved it quickly and for good reason.

    The 500 name had a recognition factor around 30% - the Taurus name has a 80% recognition factor. There are millions - yes, millions - of satisfied Taurus owners who never knew the 500 existed (or didn't care) but who are excited about the "new" Taurus. Let's come back to this discussion in about 6 months. I guarantee a significant increase in sales for the Taurus compared to the current 500.

    As for the VeraCruz being better - that's subjective. Let's compare sales figures in a few months.
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