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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Part of the reason for the younger buyer, I guess.

    Not to mention the boy-racer Altezza-style lamps. I'm 20, and these don't appeal to me.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    you therefore must not really care for the looks of the Fulan or 6 either?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Not particularly. I really don't care for the cheap taillamps of the Fusion. In a $20k car, there should be a seperate blinking bulb from the brake/taillamp (the Explorer, Expedition, F150, etc.. all suffer from this, as do many American cars. If the foreign guys could seperate the blinker in the 70s or 80s, the Americans should do this on all its cars by now.

    image
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    So, if you are correct about the very different ratios of V6 to I4 engines, maybe in the actual on-the-road fleet of cars, the Mazda6, Fusion, and Milan have greater average HP than the Altima, Camry, or Accord.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I prefer better sources on numbers than what a dealer has to provide. And, I'm in Texas actually. Altima 3.5SE/SL is a rare sight, Camry V6 is rarer. V6 is most common with Accord among the Japanese trio. And even with Accord, Honda forecasts half of sales will be of EX/EX-L trims (probably based on the past). It used to be LX trim back in late 90s.

    Nissan has made HP a selling point for a long time. When Accord I-4 topped out at 145 HP, Altima had 150 HP. When Honda upped the output (1998 Accord) to 150 HP, Nissan added 5 HP to Altima. At this time, Accord V6 had 200 HP (Maxima had 190 HP). A year or two later, Maxima went up to 222 HP. At this point, Acura TL had 225 HP, and Infiniti had to one-up it with 227 HP.

    When 2003 Accord V6 arrived with 240 HP, Nissan bumped Altima to 245 HP (a similar trend can be seen between Infiniti and Acura). It may have helped Nissan grab headlines, however (nobody remember Pontiac Grand Prix's 240 HP motor). Clearly, Nissan has marketed it well.

    To be honest, I am a little disappointed with Honda trying to stay on top in power game. Personally, I would rather have lower but more usable top end. As it is now, Accord's 268 HP can be used only in second gear, and above 65-70 mph, useful only in highway passing situations. While doing spec sheet/mag racing, it is easy to lose sight of this fundamental reality.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    really doubt that this is s function of cost - how much can an extra light bulb cost - not to mention the now more commonplace LED assemblies which can certainly take the costs of repair to new heights.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    It's not the bulb that would add cost, but I'm guessing extra engineering cost. Something Ford doesn't have much of I'm thinking.

    I know it's nit-picky, but hey, I'm allowed to be when it is my car, right? ;)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    That has been a long time pet peeve of mine. It is clearly an effect of cost cutting, because when it comes to going slightly upscale, these automakers do adjust. Take Saturn Aura and its identical twin Pontiac G6. Inside that shiny plastic stuff in the Aura, Saturn did incorporate multi-function arrangement that the Pontiac doesn’t have. I think Ford does it on Milan but not on Fusion (could be wrong, but haven’t seen that car from rear up close much).

    And then there is that back up light. I have noticed in some GM vehicles that the back up light stays on if the lights are left on with doors locked. This provides an impression that the vehicle is in reverse gear when in reality, it is actually parked. But this is a whole another story.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    And then there is that back up light. I have noticed in some GM vehicles that the back up light stays on if the lights are left on with doors locked. This provides an impression that the vehicle is in reverse gear when in reality, it is actually parked. But this is a whole another story.

    This is to provide perimeter lighting when entering or exiting the car in the dark (when lights are on). Quite handy in a dark lot/parking deck.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    I continue to be amused by the Zoom-Zoom mentality of today's automotive testers/reviewers and the horsepower race among manufacturers.

    I believe the Zoom-Zoom ads work because: A) They appeal to younger drivers; B) They appeal to older drivers who want to be younger drivers.

    The horsepower races are another story. Just how much git up and go does a mid-size sedan really need anyway? Are 0-60 times really relevant in a meaningful way?

    Our 2007 3.0-liter Duratec V6 SEL AWD Ford Fusion does the 0-60 run in about 7.5 to 8.0 seconds, making it one of the slowest V6s in the segment, yet it's a much better time than some of the so-called muscle cars of yesteryear.

    Our car is plenty fast for our needs and the engine is tried and true. (Read dependable.) I don't believe that people who participate in these automotive forums are "typical" owners, instead falling into the category of "enthusiasts."

    But it stands to reason that there should be more Accord and Camry participants simply because there are more Camcord owners, by far, to begin with. Fusion and Mazda owners are greatly outnumbered.

    The good thing about the mid-size segment is that most all of the cars are now competitive when it comes to features, performance, price. While the Camcords far outsell the rest, the qualities of the others are now apparent, too.

    Comparisons of these mid-sizers amount to splitting hairs and subjective matters, like styling. To be sure, the Fusions have the most distinctive styling: They don't resemble anything else. That is a huge plus in my book but might be a minus in someone else's. (There's no mistaking the first Edsel for anything else either. :) )

    Will Ford, GM or Chrysler ever produce a mid-size that outsells the Camry or Accord? I seriously doubt it, unless Toyota or Honda stumbles terribly. That is not likely.

    Still, FoMoCo would be well-advised to renew its old slogan, "Have you driven a Ford lately?" because of all the advances it has made in the last five years or so. The Fusion is a prime example of this.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I suppose if someone wants to drop $35k+ on a compact car, they will buy a 3 Series. Other people who "think young" might get something like a Mazda6, or even a Mazda3 or something like a Fit. Lots of choices for young-thinking drivers that cost less than a 3 Series. :)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and I'll agree that 7 or 8 second 0-60, or 16-18 sec quarter miles is 'plenty quick' by yesterday's definitions and for that matter any real practical definition.
    I guess the point really is - what if you can have 6 sec 0-60 and still be able to expect 30mpg highway - there are some cars in this group that'll do that. If you told me that I could get 35 or 40 mpg by sacrificing that 50 hp (or so) then you would have a point, but that doesn't seem to be the way this works - with that'unnecessary' 270 hp comes the efficiency needed for the the FE. Have your cake and eat it too anybody?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If you told me that I could get 35 or 40 mpg by sacrificing that 50 hp (or so) then you would have a point, but that doesn't seem to be the way this works - with that'unnecessary' 270 hp comes the efficiency needed for the the FE. Have your cake and eat it too anybody?

    I get 35MPG+ (usually 37-39) regularly on the highway in my 4-cyl Accord when running 75MPH. I guess I'm having some particularly efficient cake. Carrot cake maybe? :)
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    To someone's comment that the 6 is targeted at 18-year-olds

    Who ever posted that is pretty ignorant. Many 18yr olds are not capable of purchasing a vehicle.

    This according to Mazda:

    " Mazda6 buyers tend to be in their mid to late 30's and lead busy lives while exhibiting a 'bring it on' attitude. Financially comfortable, they own their own home and live in an urban or suburban area.

    The Mazda6 Sports Sedan is targeted at vehicle enthusiasts who believe midsized cars can be fun and youthful in addition to sophisticated, comfortable and practical. The Mazda5 5-door caters to those who want sport-coupe styling with the functionality of 5 doors. The Mazda6 Sport Wagon directs itself at those who desire a combination of utility and performance."

    This was written 5 years ago, people.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Its a nuisance. And those lights do nothing to light up the surrounding area (which is only the rear).
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I beg to differ. They light up the area you are backing up into, so you can see at night. Trust me, I back into a space every night. The reverse lights light up the path for me. They may not be REALLY bright, but work instead like puddle lamps.

    They provide enough light in my deep dark yard to park between the house and the other Accord.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    BMWs sell on lease for most part, and they are very impressive deals. Besides, there is the used car market. If it is about looking cool and young, one could do better than see oneself in an economical mainstream car. Most folks around 50 are expected to be in a better financial position as well.

    And then, there is the Accord, and Altima, and Camry, if not those two-seat sports cars (interestingly enough, most Solstice/Sky drivers that I have noticed are older).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    When you have locked the vehicle, you're not really backing up into something (that is the purpose of the lamp). It isn't supposed to provide illumination.

    When someone at a parking lot has parked the vehicle and left (assumiung the lights go off in 30 seconds or so), a person entering the lot may stop as a courtesy (or caution) to let the car back up (again, the purpose of the mandated reverse lamp). Not backing up can create a dangerous situation because it leaves other people guessing.

    If there is a need for puddle light, it should be done in the rear, like it is done up front. Reverse lamp should be left for what it is supposed to be. But, we're digressing from the topic. I don't remember having seen midsize sedans with it (except those with reverse lights gone wrong). :shades:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    actual on-the-road fleet of cars, the Mazda6, Fusion, and Milan have greater average HP than the Altima, Camry, or Accord.
    So- your V6 Fulans etc. would also be consuming a whole lot more fuel as well - what exactly is your point, that only those mfgrs. of Camcordimas can seem to make 4 cylinder engines that you can live with or that Fulans/6s/Sonatas are cheaper? I think we already knew both those things.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    think that the upcoming diesel Accord may redefine these parameters, providing probably 30mpg overall and hwy approaching 50 mpg. The biggest thing since the Prius if FE means a lot to you.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    30 mpg overall won't be a huge incentive, given that I already get 26 mpg in my Accord in mixed driving. And thats an Accord from ten years ago and 182K miles. Then I figure in $2.65/gallon for regular grade gasoline versus $3.10/gallon for diesel that I saw couple of days ago in my neighborhood.

    Diesels may be promising, but I will believe it, when I see it. The way most folks drive, it is rather hard to get good mileage. And I'm not talking high speed, quite the opposite actually. :P
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    was really talking new EPS 'City' 30 mpg - and I understand your 26 mpg, that's what my wife gets on her Altima 3.5 and FTM what I get on my Avalon albeit with a high percentage of hwy in the mix.
    Had the opputunity to drive the E320CDI a few months back, it is car that 'feels' quick because of all its torque, a rather constant reminder of what engine braking is all about, posts similar power numbers to MBs 3.5 liter high tech (premium gas) V6, but also will run about 10-15 miles further on gallon of fuel. There is a recent article about it in CR.
    May be the immediate future these clean diesels.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Mazda6 buyers tend to be in their mid to late 30's and lead busy lives while exhibiting a 'bring it on' attitude. Financially comfortable, they own their own home and live in an urban or suburban area.

    Mazda can say anything it wants, and maybe that explains why the are not head and heels above Honda.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    FMVSS says a vehicle should have separate bulbs for tail-lamp and stop-turn. The most common bulb is the 1157NA dual filament and one of the filaments does the tail lamp while the other is the combined stop-turn. There is a allowance in there for vehicles with amber signals in the rear.
    Many people like the look of the solid color vs the 3 color tail lamp lenses. You will also notice trailers are almost always a single dual filament red bulb.
    The outgoing Accord was also all red.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    In most vehicles, removing the key from the ignition or simply turning the ignition to off disables the reverse lights. This is pretty important since most manual transmission vehicles are left in reverse when parked.
    In slushbox vehicles, the key won't come out with the car in gear, so that layer of confusion is mostly eliminated, while the path is illuminated.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    The issue isn't about color of the lens, but having functions separated. My TL has all red lens but LED clusters in two rows serve as night/brake lamps, and there is an additional bulb for side indicator, plus one (each side) for reverse which has to be white. There are four bulbs in each cluster in the tail lamp of my Accord. One for side indicator, one for reverse and two for night lamp/brakes.

    The problem starts when there is just one bulb for side, night and brake lamp duties.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The outgoing Accord was also all red.

    Yes, I'm aware (I've got a 2006, my dad's 2005 was all red as well). That's not what I take issue with. It may be all red, but the "brake" lamp is seperate from the blinker. See what I mean?

    image

    On cars like the Fusion, say you are turning left. Hit the brakes with your signal on, and you get the CHMSL, and the right brakelight. There is no seperate left brakelight.

    I was behind a Taurus (2000-2004) whose CHMSL was burned out, and there was a sunlight glare on the opposing brakelight when they were turning left. I couldn't tell they were slowing down to turn as opposed to just changing lanes.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Mazda can say anything it wants, and maybe that explains why the are not head and heels above Honda.

    That is the target audience, aka demographic. What does that have to do with being "not head and heels above Honda"? I don't understand.

    Some here do not realize that Mazda does not have the manufacturing capacity of Honda. Mazda will never outsell Honda, because they cannot produce more cars then them. Plus, Honda goes for the masses, while Mazda goes for the enthusiast, and starting to expand upon that.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I don't think the question is of outselling, but of selling well. In another thread a discussion is around Honda Fit. It isn't a car that is selling in big numbers. The reasons are there, but one of them doesn't include "no demand".
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If it is about looking cool and young, one could do better than see oneself in an economical mainstream car.

    It's not. It's about feeling young. I really don't give a rodent's rear end what other people think of me as they see me drive by.

    Most folks around 50 are expected to be in a better financial position as well.


    Meaning, if someone makes good money, they will naturally want to spend it on a $35k+ compact car rather than on something else that interests them--like maybe retiring early? What is wrong with driving a car that is less expensive than you can afford to buy?

    If I did buy a 3 Series someday, it would be a used one.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Some here do not realize that Mazda does not have the manufacturing capacity of Honda. Mazda will never outsell Honda,
    Mazda never being able to outsell Honda is a function of demand not plant capacities - rest assured if enough people really wanted the 6, Mazda would be more than happy to build new plants (or convert closing Ford plants) to accommodate it. Then they could have problems like Chrysler has to this day - too much inventory from using some of that capacity and no buyers despite 'lifetime' warranties that should be more properly termed 'company lifetime - subject to the fine print contained hereon'.
    Besides which, the day that they can sell all the 6s they can make, at whatever level that is, is probably the same day that they can stop offering 20-30% discounts on it.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    ...if enough people really wanted the 6, Mazda would be more than happy...to accommodate it. Then they could have problems like Chrysler has to this day...

    Sounds like that would be a great plan...be like Chrysler :sick:
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    If its about feeling young again, I think a family sedan won't cut it. Younger folks don't buy or lean towards 4-door family sedans. Their coupe versions, may be. Which may explain why, at least in case of Hondas, the average age of coupe buyers, be it Civic or Accord, is about five years less than sedan buyers.

    Older folks who "feel" old, buy Avalon, the Buicks, Cadillacs, Lincolns etc, obviously depending on their budget. I just don't see older folks who want to "feel" younger (I wonder why that would be the case), would skip Accord, Camry or Altima. I somehow can't envision them competing with their kids (and their friends) in making their own choices.

    What is wrong with driving a car that is less expensive than you can afford to buy?

    There is nothing wrong. But in America, things don't work that way. If you can't afford to buy, you lease (especially true with BMW folks, I know quite a few). There's a $0 down/$299/month campaign running on 3-series right now. Thats not bad. OTOH, a typical buyer, putting $5K down, might pay $450/month on "buying" an Accord.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I somehow can't envision them competing with their kids (and their friends) in making their own choices.

    agreed, The older I get the less I would care about what others might think, whereas my 25 year old son does care what his peers think about his fancy dan SUV and probably similarily little about what his father thinks of it.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Not in all cases.

    My parents own a car that, if you take sticker price, is 1/9th of their combined total income. They only have the one car. They always buy brand new.

    They have other investments, such as a condo at the beach. They have said why spend that much money on something that'll depreciate, when I'm perfectly happy with this?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    JD Powers has demographic information on their website. Here are some numbers for percent of buyers in the 16-35 age range for various midsize sedans:

    Malibu 13%
    Sebring 19%
    Accord 20%
    Aura 22%
    Camry 27%
    G6 30%
    Fusion 31%
    Altima 37%
    Mazda6 39%
    Legacy 46%
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I just don't see older folks who want to "feel" younger (I wonder why that would be the case), would skip Accord, Camry or Altima.

    You're wondering why "older folks" who want to feel younger would skip a Camry? I think that's pretty clear, isn't it? Have you driven a Camry vs. a Mazda6 lately?

    Tell me the generally-available real-world price of an Accord, Camry, or Altima with the following equipment, and I'll give you a few reasons--actually a few thousand reasons--why people might go for the Mazda6, handling and looks aside:

    17" alloys
    Sport seats with power driver's seat
    Ground effects and rear spoiler
    I4 with 5-speed manumatic
    CD changer
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I would like to know where JD Powers found 16 year olds buying these cars.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,946
    "Older folks who "feel" old, buy Avalon, the Buicks, Cadillacs, Lincolns etc, obviously depending on their budget."

    I guess that there is always an exception to the rule, but I certainly don't feel any "older" driving my Avalon at 29.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Yes there are. I, for one, was about 20 years younger than an average Accord sedan buyer. But with middle ground cars like the Accord, there is a potential to attract people from both ends of the spectrum, and in the middle.

    I guess, some things never change. Found this related article from ten years ago (on MY1998 Accord):

    "Honda marketers see coupe and sedan buyers sharing many demographics, with an average age in the 30's to 50's and household income of $60,000." (link)

    That would be the age to target, with a family sedan/coupe.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    When you're 65, you can drive a Civic Si 6-speed with a coffee can muffler. :)

    I'm with you man. I'm 6'4" and appreciate a roomy sedan (Accord driver here).
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Besides which, the day that they can sell all the 6s they can make, at whatever level that is, is probably the same day that they can stop offering 20-30% discounts on it.

    Mazda is not offering those discounts, privately owned dealers are. Mazda North American Operations is offering less then 10% off from MSRP.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Older folks that might go for Avalon, might go with Camry (the younger version). They are not going to jump into something that hurts their bottom (these folks like those kind of cars for a reason). As a result, they will have better alternatives. Again, if style was truly important, why go with four door sedan? Accord Coupe (if one can find one sitting at the lot) or Altima Coupe would do a far better job.

    And really, are their 50 year olds who wouldn't feel younger without ground effects, rear spoiler and 17" alloys? BTW, I've seen you mention 17" rims more than once. Other than base Accord sedan, wider 17" rims are standard in most trims (and all trims of coupe, except 6MT which gets 18").

    why people might go for the Mazda6

    I will keep my eyes open for a 50-year old trying to feel younger in his/her Mazda6.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I don't think the question is of outselling, but of selling well

    There is no question that the sales have sunk. I am not debating that. However, when the 6 came out, it was a big success for Mazda. The Mazda6 is now 5 years old, and in dire need of an overhaul. Lets see how the new 6 does, and bring the topic up again then.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Instead of sales talk, we can talk of the cars themselves.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Again, if style was truly important, why go with four door sedan?

    Who said style was truly important? You did, not I. Just because someone likes driving something sportier than a Camry doesn't mean he/she doesn't have kids (maybe BIG kids) to haul around, or other adults. Coupes are great if you don't need to use the rear seat often. That's not my situation.

    What is that real-world selling price then for the Accord with the 17" alloys? The lowest-priced model like that is the EX I4, isn't it? What does that go for? Anywhere near $16k? Even with 16" alloys and power seat, we're looking at a LX-P. What do those go for with the 5-speed AT? Anywhere close to $16k?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Instead of sales talk, we can talk of the cars themselves.

    Thumbs up!!
  • knichols007knichols007 Member Posts: 10
    Imagine....
    1. I'm standing on the corner. I black 2008 porsche coming down the road. passes me. Parks parallel in front about 50 yards. The door opens. I see a womans leg in low heels. She gets out. Average, 30-50, looking/build. Walks away. What am I thinking...HOT!

    2. I'm standing on the corner. I black 2008 porsche coming down the road. passes me. Parks parallel in front about 50 yards. The door opens. I see a mans pant leg. He gets out. Average 30-50, looking/build. Walks away. What am I thinking...Car salesman /waiter holdin' onto childhood.

    3. I'm standing on the corner. I black 2008 s600 Benz coming down the road. passes me. Parks parallel in front about 50 yards. The door opens. I see a mans pant leg. He gets out. Average 30-50, looking/build. Walks away. What am I thinking...THE MANs got it together.

    4. I'm standing on the corner. I black 2008 s600 Benz coming down the road. passes me. Parks parrallel in front about 50 yards. The door opens. I see a ladies leg. Low heels. She gets out. Average 30-50, looking/build. Walks away. What am I thinking...rich husband.

    What is style?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Aren't how they sell apart of the discussion?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I don't get to decide that, but it seems like the sales horse is dead and bloody (we all know sales for the 6 are down). I still think it is worthy of discussion (the car, anyway) since it is on sale, and the only competitor Mazda has in this race at the moment.
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