Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options

Midsize Sedans 2.0

1136137139141142544

Comments

  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The problem is with that word. "PREDICT". I understand that the system can REACT to INPUT from steering or throttle or INPUT from wheel slip sensors. The system can only REACT to something, and not PREDICT anything. If the word "predict" is included in Ford's description, it is misleading and false, IMO.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I'm sure it applies to a lot of people, but reliability ratings on CR or from JD Powers doesn't govern people's choice over everything else. Beyond personal experience, experiences from friends and family, preference for the type of car (soft, sporty or something in between, size), price structure/options, reputation built over time etc play a major role.

    Also, In my case, beyond personal experience I also happen to observe cars that are still abundant on roads while being from at least two generations out (8-plus years) vouches for their durability/reliability more than any survey could ever provide. Another way to look at is how a brand does when it comes to brand loyalty.

    In the longer term, it is the reality that takes over. If a brand keeps growing and sells on its name, there must be a good reason for it.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Yep. I didn’t see predict in Ford’s PR. It is written along the same lines as Honda’s PR on Real Time AWD system. They make it sound like the system engages before slip occurs.

    It does happen in some systems that I have mentioned, but they are not predicting, they are just designed to engage all wheels under some conditions without requiring detection of slip. Acceleration torque control module in VTM-4 (Pilot) is an example. You accelerate, you basically engage all wheels. But it is reacting to acceleration, not predicting slippage. That is one of the conditions built in the design. I don’t see something similar mentioned in any of PR from Ford.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I completely agree that ratings from any single source shouldn't govern someone's choice of a car. But I and others find third-party data re reliability useful. It's one source, just like looking at how many cars from two generations back are seen on the road is a source of info. Each source has its plusses and minuses. For example, if you go by how many cars from two generations back are seen on the road, that favors the volume sellers (Accord, Camry, Taurus, Malibu, Century etc.) over cars that sold in lower volume. It also doesn't take into account big improvements in quality and reliability by some brands over the past decade. Looking at brand loyalty has that same drawback. Personally I use a combination of long-term and shorter-term data to help with my car-buying decisions, so I don't overlook a car that is a good choice now, even though two generations ago I might not have given it a moment's consideration.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    When looking at older cars still being abundant on the road, I do account for proportions. I don't expect a Sonata from 1996 to be as common as an Accord from that period. But I do expect a Taurus and a Camry from that period to be as common. And I should have at least an occasional sighting of lower volume cars as well if they seem fairly abundant when they are launched.

    As far as relying on surveys from CR and JD Powers goes, I consider them, but don't take them too seriously. Besides, if someone told me that a car had 2 problems per 100 sold and another had 1.5 problems per 100 sold, I would need more information than just that to really figure out what the problem really is. Both might fall under above average category, but does that by itself help?

    Besides, since when did we start relying on the past to create expectations around the new ones? :shades:
  • ccostableccostable Member Posts: 55
    That is a beautiful car. Do you know if Mazda is keeping the hatchback for the new 6? I had some travel that diverted my flight about two and a half hours from home during a snow storm pretty recently, where I got a 6 for a rental. I really enjoyed driving that car for the short time I had it. Handled the snow perfectly too.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Now I'm confused... isn't looking for how many cars from the past two generations are driving around "relying on the past to create expectations around the new ones", at least in part? :confuse:
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    You don't see it because you don't want to see it. Everyone else did.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I haven't had trouble relying on the past and using it towards expectations for newer models. :)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Who's everyone else?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Whatever works for you. I think it's more prudent to consider the past when deciding which car to buy, but not rely on it, since the automotive market moves pretty fast and designs change--oftentimes for the better, but sometimes not.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Thats what I said. A lot more goes into buying a car than reading up CR and JDP survey, worse, taking them to the heart.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I read that 80% of Accord owners are repeat buyers. 30% of them did not even consider other cars, and just went to the Honda dealer for a new Accord. While this is telling, in it's own way, what is more impressive is that 50% considered other cars, and still went back to the Accord. Seems Accord owners have a hard time finding another car (in it's price range) that can measure up to what they are accustomed to.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    effectively shutting their brains down to new and exciting product out there.

    Oh well. I'm glad it's not me buying the hideously dull looking Camcord. Have mercy.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Didn't you read the previous post?

    50% of the repeat Accord buyers considered other cars before going back for another Accord. Which part of that tells you that they are "shutting down theirs brains to new and exciting products"?

    :confuse:

    Also, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, counting out a car based on its looks is not going to gain you any credibility. Based on that thought, BMW might as well just pack up and go home...
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    for "credibility", just for starters. I have found that looking for a car is a very personal decision that can only be made by that person.

    IMHO the Honda Accord is one homely knight and the Toyota Camry is too. Don't worry, the homeliest cars on the planet besides the Pontiac Aztek are Subaru's.

    I'd rather be forced to listen to Britney Spear's new CD nonstop for 250 hours at high volumes than buy a CamCord. They are hideous and not even worth considering.

    What's nice is that there are so many choices in midsize that even if I was interested in a mid-size car I could consider a Fusion, Mazda6, Optima or a Malibu and each and every one of those would be reliable and trustworthy cars.

    Having to pick a CamCord would be an ugly, nasty day in paradise for me. So this is good...there are alternates to the sheep-fests out there available to one and all and they are no slouches in the price and reliability and performance variety. Not to mention price. This thread has taught me that well. It would be nice if Toyota would take some of those millions and work on designing a nice looking car. So far they are inept at it, even though the American people bail them out by buying CamCords. Go figure, Higgard. ;)

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Of course all that is in YHO. By the sales numbers, seems like Toyota has already figured out their target market and produced a product that satisifies that demand. Not to make them right and you wrong. Toyota isn't for everyone and it's nice to have alternatives.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    I consider all brands when buying a car. I just don't like Toyota and Honda's midsize or large cars nor do I care for their SUV's. To each his own.

    Now, as far as smaller cars go, I was close to buying a 2006 Scion xA in Polar White and 5-speeds. If not for my wife poo-pooing the deal I'd no doubt be driving one now. She didn't even want to consider a Scion xA, but I enjoyed my test-drive in one and was ready to deal. Oh well.

    And I had my eye on a 2007 Toyota Yaris sedan for the longest time in Idaho, too. Just wasn't the right time to buy on each of those rigs.

    I am glad I waited to trade our '01 Kia Sportage 4X4 in for a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. Oh I am so glad because this new Lancer GTS in Rally Red is a great car that I grow fonder of each passing day.

    But my point is that someone may love their Toyota Camry and Honda Accord and to each his own. It's just that I require a lot more body design integrity than Toy-Hon offers in this size class. Plain Jane fact, man.

    Carry on.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Everyone except you, apparently. You seem to be the only one who can't comprehend what the article said and I explained at least 3 times. If you don't get it by now you never will so just move on.

    BTW - how does the AWD system work on the Accord, Camry and Maxima?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    effectively shutting their brains down to new and exciting product out there.

    It is okay to have an opinion, but here is a piece of advise. Don't put that on your resume, if you ever apply for a job in sales/marketing. If you make it there, I can only imagine what you would say to a long time repeat customer who has been extremely happy with the products your company sells.

    People aren't idiots.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Haven't you already? But since you asked...

    how does the AWD system work on the Accord, Camry and Maxima?
    Is there a point to the question? Or are you unaware that AWD isn't offered in these cars in America?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    :mad:

    I find that designs may change, but car companies and its employees do not, or at least they don't change fast enough.

    Car companies in general are huge behemoths that move and change very slowly. They are gigantic goliaths that take over 50 years to figure out how to make a decent automobile sometimes...... how they stay in business for so long, I can never fathom.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    I believe the vast majority of Camcord buyers are just looking for the best CAR for the money. The best value in automobiles. I don't think there are really too many Camcord buyers THAT LOVE the way they look. They might like it, but not usually love it.

    It's not the looks, it's what's on the indside that counts! ;)
    It's the way it drives, the way it moves, the way it works. The way it gets the most power and the most gas mileage at the same time.

    It's kind of like a woman that way.... she may not be the prettiest, but she sure is the best in bed, and she won't die on you prematurely. :P Guaranteed satisfaction for 15 years or 200,000 miles. :)
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    They are gigantic goliaths that take over 50 years to figure out how to make a decent automobile sometimes...

    So, since none of the current mid-sized car nameplates has been around for 50 years (most of them far less than that), is none of them "decent"?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Toyota's existed in one form or another for over 50 years I believe.

    GM, Chrysler, and Ford have definitely existed that long.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    Thank you very much! I'm still smitten by how my Mazda6 looks... it still makes me smile when I walk up to it; partly because I love how sleek and sensuous it looks, but probably also because I know I'm going to enjoy driving it. Even though my car is a couple years old, I still get lots of compliments on it.

    I've heard the new Mazda6 will be available in Europe as a sedan, wagon, and hatchback. But unfortunately, details on what we'll get in North America haven't been officially released. I hope they do though... I love how the Mazda6 hatchback is a powerful mix of great hauling capability and good looks which makes it a very unique choice in this midsize segment.

    I can't say I was too thrilled with driving my Mazda 6 in the snow like you though. But it's probably less to do with how the car handles vs how inexperienced I am at driving in snow... Portland seems to get very little snow in the last decade. But I think the biggest reason I didn't enjoy driving it in the snow was because I was paranoid that I might crash my newish car!
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    If some of you want to twist, churn, and spin the data coming from CR and JD Powers, that is fine, and it's your right to do so. However, taking a direct look and interpreting the information in a straight forward manner, the yield and results are this:

    There are a few above average midsize sedans in terms of long term reliability.

    There are quite a few AVERAGE midsize sedans in terms of longterm reliability.

    There are a few below average midsize sedans in regards to long term reliability.

    Some of you might be OK with mediocre and below vehicles.

    I'm not; I always want something that is AT LEAST above average, as a minimum.


    Your experience with your transmission needing to be replaced in your Accord goes to show that even cars that have been “more” reliable than others have significant problems.

    But I think in general, we agree that we both want very reliable cars. If you were to look past the overly simplistic symbols that exaggerate the differences in reliability and instead look at the percentage differences that those symbols represent in Consumer Reports reliability surveys, you’ll find the difference between above average and below average to be pretty insignificant where just a matter of a few percentage points over a five year period separate the above average to below average. Now I do have some problems with the methodology of Consumer Reports reliability surveys, but their data seems to be consistent with JD Powers’ data where they have reported that over a five year period, the difference between the most reliable and below average cars is about one extra problem over that five year period.

    Personally, I don’t really care if the car I buy is rated “below” average if the difference between below average and above average is barely statistically significant.

    But lets say you dismiss the small actual percentage differences between the above and below average cars and insist on buying the most reliable… well that would be the Ford Fusion.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I'm still smitten by how my Mazda6 looks... it still makes me smile when I walk up to it; partly because I love how sleek and sensuous it looks

    Would you, and your car :confuse: like to be alone? :surprise: If it were a Porsche or a Ferrari, maybe I could understand. But not a Mazda. Please.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    who are you to judge what I should and should not feel? are you saying because I can't afford an exotic and I need something practical, I should not enjoy driving my car or appreciate how it looks? save your snobbery and perversions for someone else. please.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    While this is telling, in it's own way, what is more impressive is that 50% considered other cars

    I would not be too impressed by this, claiming to have "considered" other cars does not necessarily mean much. One example is a co-worker of mine who has bought only Honda and Toyota for at least the last 15 years. I've gave him a hard time about not even considering anything else, when he was recently looking at minivans. He claimed he was considering others, yet he never even took a test drive in anything else.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    who are you to judge what I should and should not feel? are you saying because I can't afford an exotic and I need something practical, I should not enjoy driving my car or appreciate how it looks? save your snobbery and perversions for someone else. please.

    Its an CamCord thing. How could you get attached to that? Cars that have a soul facilitate a much more rewarding relationship. :P I have never been this unattached to an automobile before.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Funny you should mention I purchased a vehicle that is rated far above average (the amazing Accord), and I still experienced a few problems during warranty (all minor) not including the transmission (major). Of course, the tranny didn't die until after the official warranty was over and done with, but Honda has the secret 100,000 mile warranty.

    So if an above average vehicle can have it's fair share of issues, why in the world would I want to take a chance on a below average one? If an above average car can have 10 problems in 4 years, it stands reasonable to assume a below aveage one could just as easily have 20 problems in those 4 years. Believing you will always hit the median is a bad idea.

    Take a hall of fame baseball player... say.... Wade Boggs. Since he averaged close to hitting .350 for so many years, his lifetime batting average easily eclipsed .300 for his career. Now if he didn't have a half dozen or so .350+ years, his average wouldn't have been so high for his career. But even in his bad years he was hitting well over .300, but not always over .350.

    Now take your below average baseball player, and maybe he has ONE year where he can hit .300, but in most years, he's very mediocre, and in some years, he might hit .220. Barely carrying his weight.

    I'll take the Hall of Famer.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, Toyota and other car companies have existed for over 50 years. But notice I was talking specifically about mid-sized cars--you know, the subject of this discussion? So much for trying to get things back on track...
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    I've never subscribed to Consumer Reports so I never got one of their report forms, but I understand correctly it doesn't weigh for seriousness of the problem (I didn't check this before posting so I'll probably be corrected if I'm wrong). If I am correct that means your transmission counts less than a reoccurring electrical problem that cost a tenth as much to fix.

    The other problem with your baseball analogy is that cars have all gotten a lot better than in the past but Consumer Reports still grades on the curve. So if twenty five years ago the equivalent of 70% on a test was a gentleman's C and 80 a B, 90% now gets you a C and 93% a B. In other words, every thing's now better and every thing's now closer together but the teacher still flunks a fixed percentage of students. In baseball parlance, sort of like the team average being .300 and the top hitter going .315.

    In the meantime, the Camcords have gotten progressively more conservative and less interesting. Compare a the original Sonata, a 1988 Celebrity and a 1988 Accord. Now look at the comparisons between the 08 Sonata, the 08 Malibu and the 08 Accord. Can't you see that the difference is narrowing and that Honda is no longer the daring, innovative company that it was twenty years ago?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    From their FAQ:

    ...we ask subscribers to note any problems with their cars that occurred in the past 12 months. They are asked to identify problems that they considered serious (because of cost, failure, safety, or downtime). We ask them to include problems covered by warranty, but not the ones resulting from accident damage or recall. We also ask them not to include replacement of normal maintenance items (like brake pads, batteries, and mufflers) unless they were replaced much sooner or more often than expected.

    To me, one of the biggest weaknesses is it is too dependant on the the opinions of the person filling out the survey (eg. was the problem "serious"). I thought their survey was weak, when I was a subscriber long ago...I've discounted their information ever since then...meaning I don't ignore it, but I also don't give it too much weight.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I think CR's ratings are useful, to a point. When CR had the 2001 Malibu as a "recommended" car, and my personal experience with that car, was far from something I would recommend. CR recommends cars, that I would not.
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    Is there a point to the question? Or are you unaware that AWD isn't offered in these cars in America?

    Now that was funny. :surprise:
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    Personally, I don’t really care if the car I buy is rated “below” average if the difference between below average and above average is barely statistically significant.

    Agree wholeheartedly.

    That being the case you would think the car that does it for you should be the overriding factor in your decision making.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    ...but I understand correctly it doesn't weigh for seriousness of the problem (I didn't check this before posting so I'll probably be corrected if I'm wrong).

    You are absolutely right... about being corrected if you're wrong. :) CR's reliability ratings do weigh some problems more than others, e.g. powertrain problems carry more weight. That may explain why they un-recommended the Camry V6--it's had transmission problems.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    But that may not be reflected in overall reliability ratings. "Recommendation" is not quite the same as overall rating. Two cars may have same overall rating, but one of them may be recommended over the other.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    It's just that I require a lot more body design integrity than Toy-Hon offers in this size class. Plain Jane fact, man.

    This begs the question, why don't you apply these lofty standards to other car classes then?

    You coveted cars such as the Scion aA and Yaris and now you drive a Lancer. Not that these cars lack style but they're offensive to look at (in my opinion of course). Yaris! Yikes!!! Must be an age difference thing.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    On the other hand, JD Powers does weigh problems the same.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say, in relation to my post. If CR rates two cars the same based on their own tests, and it's at least a "Good" score, but one has a poor crash test score and/or below average predicted reliability, than CR won't recommend it but would recommend the other car, assuming it doesn't have those same issues. There's no mystery there--CR is very clear about under what conditions they recommend a car.

    Maybe if you or others want to get into a discussion about how CR rates cars in general, we should take it to the appropriate discussion, e.g. the one about CR and JD Power.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    This is not the place to debate the merits or demerits of Consumer Reporst and JD Power as we've noted previously. There is a very handy discussion for that over in Smart Shopper.

    I want to also make the point (again) that sarcasm is not doing anything to move this conversation forward. If you have a point to make, make it, but being sarcastic about your point just makes people roll their eyes and move on - at best. It changes no one's mind about the subject, but it may change some people's minds about the poster. I'm really not sure why anyone would want to put their credibility on the line in that manner.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Anyone else besides Mazda making their cars lighter?

    source StoneyCreekNews-
    At the Frankfurt Motor Show, Mazda Motor Corporation underscores its "Sustainable Zoom-Zoom" vision for developing technologies that have less impact on the environment. The world premiere of the all-new Mazda6 took centre stage and this latest model continues Mazda's lightweight strategy. Despite its increased dimensions and more comprehensive equipment, it is slightly lighter, uses less fuel and produces less CO2 than its predecessor.
    The all-new Mazda2, now on sale in Europe was the first model to break the upward spiral of ever-heavier cars.-end

    My fingers are crossed that Mazda will introduce the same midsize Mazda6 in US that was introduced in Europe.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Mazda needs to do something - as all they have now is a substandard V6 and recently discontinuing the one engine that could sustain some 'zoom-zoom'. Lets see the Camry SE moves 13.5lbs. of car for each HP it has - the Mazda 6 between 16 and 17 lbs. therefore all Mazda has to do is to get the 6 in at about 2800 lbs. (or about a 600lb. reduction!) and that's just to match the Toyota's 'zoom'. Yes yes I know I'm missing the point - because 6 drivers are all enjoying taking corners at breakneck speeds ( or throwing themselves thru the windshield with their brakes) and never have any cause to use what is more useful - straight line power. Taking several hundreds pounds off a car in this class is not gonna happen in these days anyway, as the cars get bigger and bigger and also generally safer and safer. The new Accord and the Sonata are both classified as large cars with things like the Altima/Camry not far behind, do you really think that a 4 door sedan that can't hold 4 adults comfortably is going to sell?
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    Geez, I hope discussing vehicle weights isn't consider out of bounds.

    There's nothing wrong with Mazda offering a fun to drive, smaller, lighter car. With VW discontinuing the Jetta 2.0t there's nothing else out there unless you move up to the premium brands. I know there's a VW GLI but not every one wants all the boy racer effects that come with the car. Doesn't seem like Audi, Acura, BMW, or M-B have any trouble selling 4 door sedans that can't hold 4 adults comfortably. Where's it written that smallish 4 door sedans have to be limited to the economy or premium classes? Only in this country it appears.

    For pete sakes we're becoming a whole bunch of fat pigs in this country. What do you think Honda meant when they said their customers are getting bigger so they made the Accord bigger?

    I'll applaud Mazda if they hold the weight and size of the next 6.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Well I agree, except what's with this ridiculous idea that 4 adults can't fit comfortably in a Mazda6? The car is plenty big enough for 4 adults. Even CR said The rear is comfortable for two adults, but three is a squeeze. in their review of the 6.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Mazda needs to do something - as all they have now is a substandard V6 and recently discontinuing the one engine that could sustain some 'zoom-zoom'.

    Not true. Going by the sticker prices you can get a MAZDASPEED6 for roughly the same price as an Accord V6 or Camry V6 and you get AWD with the Mazda to boot. Real world prices? The Mazda is cheaper than the other two making it a screaming bargain.

    So if you are so hung up on power and performance, which your statement eludes to, then the Accord and Camry are lame ducks compared to the Mazda6 in it's current form. :P
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Yes yes I know I'm missing the point - because 6 drivers are all enjoying taking corners at breakneck speeds ( or throwing themselves thru the windshield with their brakes) and never have any cause to use what is more useful - straight line power.

    That might be a regional thing. If you live in Nebraska or Kansas, or even Texas, I could see straight line acceleration as being paramount, especially I would expect one to be leaving any of those states as quickly as possible. In mountain regions, or even in Michigan where country roads wrap around property lines and farmer's fields, I find having a car that can corner to be more rewarding than one that can go fast in a straight line.
    I also think when times are within 1 second (as the case between the new Camry and the Mazda's substandard V6, power is mostly about bragging rights and not anything actually measurable anyway. Oh, and that time is with an auto, since the fuddy duddy car doesn't offer a manual.
    Of course, even my 4 cylinder Accord feels peppy enough and has a 7 sec 0-60 w/a manual.
Sign In or Register to comment.