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Also, In my case, beyond personal experience I also happen to observe cars that are still abundant on roads while being from at least two generations out (8-plus years) vouches for their durability/reliability more than any survey could ever provide. Another way to look at is how a brand does when it comes to brand loyalty.
In the longer term, it is the reality that takes over. If a brand keeps growing and sells on its name, there must be a good reason for it.
It does happen in some systems that I have mentioned, but they are not predicting, they are just designed to engage all wheels under some conditions without requiring detection of slip. Acceleration torque control module in VTM-4 (Pilot) is an example. You accelerate, you basically engage all wheels. But it is reacting to acceleration, not predicting slippage. That is one of the conditions built in the design. I don’t see something similar mentioned in any of PR from Ford.
As far as relying on surveys from CR and JD Powers goes, I consider them, but don't take them too seriously. Besides, if someone told me that a car had 2 problems per 100 sold and another had 1.5 problems per 100 sold, I would need more information than just that to really figure out what the problem really is. Both might fall under above average category, but does that by itself help?
Besides, since when did we start relying on the past to create expectations around the new ones? :shades:
Oh well. I'm glad it's not me buying the hideously dull looking Camcord. Have mercy.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
50% of the repeat Accord buyers considered other cars before going back for another Accord. Which part of that tells you that they are "shutting down theirs brains to new and exciting products"?
:confuse:
Also, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, counting out a car based on its looks is not going to gain you any credibility. Based on that thought, BMW might as well just pack up and go home...
IMHO the Honda Accord is one homely knight and the Toyota Camry is too. Don't worry, the homeliest cars on the planet besides the Pontiac Aztek are Subaru's.
I'd rather be forced to listen to Britney Spear's new CD nonstop for 250 hours at high volumes than buy a CamCord. They are hideous and not even worth considering.
What's nice is that there are so many choices in midsize that even if I was interested in a mid-size car I could consider a Fusion, Mazda6, Optima or a Malibu and each and every one of those would be reliable and trustworthy cars.
Having to pick a CamCord would be an ugly, nasty day in paradise for me. So this is good...there are alternates to the sheep-fests out there available to one and all and they are no slouches in the price and reliability and performance variety. Not to mention price. This thread has taught me that well. It would be nice if Toyota would take some of those millions and work on designing a nice looking car. So far they are inept at it, even though the American people bail them out by buying CamCords. Go figure, Higgard.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Now, as far as smaller cars go, I was close to buying a 2006 Scion xA in Polar White and 5-speeds. If not for my wife poo-pooing the deal I'd no doubt be driving one now. She didn't even want to consider a Scion xA, but I enjoyed my test-drive in one and was ready to deal. Oh well.
And I had my eye on a 2007 Toyota Yaris sedan for the longest time in Idaho, too. Just wasn't the right time to buy on each of those rigs.
I am glad I waited to trade our '01 Kia Sportage 4X4 in for a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. Oh I am so glad because this new Lancer GTS in Rally Red is a great car that I grow fonder of each passing day.
But my point is that someone may love their Toyota Camry and Honda Accord and to each his own. It's just that I require a lot more body design integrity than Toy-Hon offers in this size class. Plain Jane fact, man.
Carry on.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
BTW - how does the AWD system work on the Accord, Camry and Maxima?
It is okay to have an opinion, but here is a piece of advise. Don't put that on your resume, if you ever apply for a job in sales/marketing. If you make it there, I can only imagine what you would say to a long time repeat customer who has been extremely happy with the products your company sells.
People aren't idiots.
how does the AWD system work on the Accord, Camry and Maxima?
Is there a point to the question? Or are you unaware that AWD isn't offered in these cars in America?
I find that designs may change, but car companies and its employees do not, or at least they don't change fast enough.
Car companies in general are huge behemoths that move and change very slowly. They are gigantic goliaths that take over 50 years to figure out how to make a decent automobile sometimes...... how they stay in business for so long, I can never fathom.
It's not the looks, it's what's on the indside that counts!
It's the way it drives, the way it moves, the way it works. The way it gets the most power and the most gas mileage at the same time.
It's kind of like a woman that way.... she may not be the prettiest, but she sure is the best in bed, and she won't die on you prematurely. :P Guaranteed satisfaction for 15 years or 200,000 miles.
So, since none of the current mid-sized car nameplates has been around for 50 years (most of them far less than that), is none of them "decent"?
GM, Chrysler, and Ford have definitely existed that long.
I've heard the new Mazda6 will be available in Europe as a sedan, wagon, and hatchback. But unfortunately, details on what we'll get in North America haven't been officially released. I hope they do though... I love how the Mazda6 hatchback is a powerful mix of great hauling capability and good looks which makes it a very unique choice in this midsize segment.
I can't say I was too thrilled with driving my Mazda 6 in the snow like you though. But it's probably less to do with how the car handles vs how inexperienced I am at driving in snow... Portland seems to get very little snow in the last decade. But I think the biggest reason I didn't enjoy driving it in the snow was because I was paranoid that I might crash my newish car!
There are a few above average midsize sedans in terms of long term reliability.
There are quite a few AVERAGE midsize sedans in terms of longterm reliability.
There are a few below average midsize sedans in regards to long term reliability.
Some of you might be OK with mediocre and below vehicles.
I'm not; I always want something that is AT LEAST above average, as a minimum.
Your experience with your transmission needing to be replaced in your Accord goes to show that even cars that have been “more” reliable than others have significant problems.
But I think in general, we agree that we both want very reliable cars. If you were to look past the overly simplistic symbols that exaggerate the differences in reliability and instead look at the percentage differences that those symbols represent in Consumer Reports reliability surveys, you’ll find the difference between above average and below average to be pretty insignificant where just a matter of a few percentage points over a five year period separate the above average to below average. Now I do have some problems with the methodology of Consumer Reports reliability surveys, but their data seems to be consistent with JD Powers’ data where they have reported that over a five year period, the difference between the most reliable and below average cars is about one extra problem over that five year period.
Personally, I don’t really care if the car I buy is rated “below” average if the difference between below average and above average is barely statistically significant.
But lets say you dismiss the small actual percentage differences between the above and below average cars and insist on buying the most reliable well that would be the Ford Fusion.
Would you, and your car :confuse: like to be alone? :surprise: If it were a Porsche or a Ferrari, maybe I could understand. But not a Mazda. Please.
I would not be too impressed by this, claiming to have "considered" other cars does not necessarily mean much. One example is a co-worker of mine who has bought only Honda and Toyota for at least the last 15 years. I've gave him a hard time about not even considering anything else, when he was recently looking at minivans. He claimed he was considering others, yet he never even took a test drive in anything else.
Its an CamCord thing. How could you get attached to that? Cars that have a soul facilitate a much more rewarding relationship. :P I have never been this unattached to an automobile before.
So if an above average vehicle can have it's fair share of issues, why in the world would I want to take a chance on a below average one? If an above average car can have 10 problems in 4 years, it stands reasonable to assume a below aveage one could just as easily have 20 problems in those 4 years. Believing you will always hit the median is a bad idea.
Take a hall of fame baseball player... say.... Wade Boggs. Since he averaged close to hitting .350 for so many years, his lifetime batting average easily eclipsed .300 for his career. Now if he didn't have a half dozen or so .350+ years, his average wouldn't have been so high for his career. But even in his bad years he was hitting well over .300, but not always over .350.
Now take your below average baseball player, and maybe he has ONE year where he can hit .300, but in most years, he's very mediocre, and in some years, he might hit .220. Barely carrying his weight.
I'll take the Hall of Famer.
The other problem with your baseball analogy is that cars have all gotten a lot better than in the past but Consumer Reports still grades on the curve. So if twenty five years ago the equivalent of 70% on a test was a gentleman's C and 80 a B, 90% now gets you a C and 93% a B. In other words, every thing's now better and every thing's now closer together but the teacher still flunks a fixed percentage of students. In baseball parlance, sort of like the team average being .300 and the top hitter going .315.
In the meantime, the Camcords have gotten progressively more conservative and less interesting. Compare a the original Sonata, a 1988 Celebrity and a 1988 Accord. Now look at the comparisons between the 08 Sonata, the 08 Malibu and the 08 Accord. Can't you see that the difference is narrowing and that Honda is no longer the daring, innovative company that it was twenty years ago?
...we ask subscribers to note any problems with their cars that occurred in the past 12 months. They are asked to identify problems that they considered serious (because of cost, failure, safety, or downtime). We ask them to include problems covered by warranty, but not the ones resulting from accident damage or recall. We also ask them not to include replacement of normal maintenance items (like brake pads, batteries, and mufflers) unless they were replaced much sooner or more often than expected.
To me, one of the biggest weaknesses is it is too dependant on the the opinions of the person filling out the survey (eg. was the problem "serious"). I thought their survey was weak, when I was a subscriber long ago...I've discounted their information ever since then...meaning I don't ignore it, but I also don't give it too much weight.
Now that was funny. :surprise:
Agree wholeheartedly.
That being the case you would think the car that does it for you should be the overriding factor in your decision making.
You are absolutely right... about being corrected if you're wrong.
This begs the question, why don't you apply these lofty standards to other car classes then?
You coveted cars such as the Scion aA and Yaris and now you drive a Lancer. Not that these cars lack style but they're offensive to look at (in my opinion of course). Yaris! Yikes!!! Must be an age difference thing.
Maybe if you or others want to get into a discussion about how CR rates cars in general, we should take it to the appropriate discussion, e.g. the one about CR and JD Power.
I want to also make the point (again) that sarcasm is not doing anything to move this conversation forward. If you have a point to make, make it, but being sarcastic about your point just makes people roll their eyes and move on - at best. It changes no one's mind about the subject, but it may change some people's minds about the poster. I'm really not sure why anyone would want to put their credibility on the line in that manner.
source StoneyCreekNews-
At the Frankfurt Motor Show, Mazda Motor Corporation underscores its "Sustainable Zoom-Zoom" vision for developing technologies that have less impact on the environment. The world premiere of the all-new Mazda6 took centre stage and this latest model continues Mazda's lightweight strategy. Despite its increased dimensions and more comprehensive equipment, it is slightly lighter, uses less fuel and produces less CO2 than its predecessor.
The all-new Mazda2, now on sale in Europe was the first model to break the upward spiral of ever-heavier cars.-end
My fingers are crossed that Mazda will introduce the same midsize Mazda6 in US that was introduced in Europe.
There's nothing wrong with Mazda offering a fun to drive, smaller, lighter car. With VW discontinuing the Jetta 2.0t there's nothing else out there unless you move up to the premium brands. I know there's a VW GLI but not every one wants all the boy racer effects that come with the car. Doesn't seem like Audi, Acura, BMW, or M-B have any trouble selling 4 door sedans that can't hold 4 adults comfortably. Where's it written that smallish 4 door sedans have to be limited to the economy or premium classes? Only in this country it appears.
For pete sakes we're becoming a whole bunch of fat pigs in this country. What do you think Honda meant when they said their customers are getting bigger so they made the Accord bigger?
I'll applaud Mazda if they hold the weight and size of the next 6.
Not true. Going by the sticker prices you can get a MAZDASPEED6 for roughly the same price as an Accord V6 or Camry V6 and you get AWD with the Mazda to boot. Real world prices? The Mazda is cheaper than the other two making it a screaming bargain.
So if you are so hung up on power and performance, which your statement eludes to, then the Accord and Camry are lame ducks compared to the Mazda6 in it's current form. :P
That might be a regional thing. If you live in Nebraska or Kansas, or even Texas, I could see straight line acceleration as being paramount, especially I would expect one to be leaving any of those states as quickly as possible. In mountain regions, or even in Michigan where country roads wrap around property lines and farmer's fields, I find having a car that can corner to be more rewarding than one that can go fast in a straight line.
I also think when times are within 1 second (as the case between the new Camry and the Mazda's substandard V6, power is mostly about bragging rights and not anything actually measurable anyway. Oh, and that time is with an auto, since the fuddy duddy car doesn't offer a manual.
Of course, even my 4 cylinder Accord feels peppy enough and has a 7 sec 0-60 w/a manual.