Midsize Sedans 2.0

akirby

Actually, the host has already prevented it from being added to the Mainstream Large Sedans discussion.

Main Entry: tongue-in-cheek
Function: adjective
: characterized by insincerity, irony, or whimsical exaggeration

mz6greyghost

What defines fun? In my opinion there is a fine line between having "fun" while driving and reckless driving.

Not if it's done right. There are plenty of opportunities to have "fun" without even being close to breaking the law. It's all in how you look at it.

Zzzoom is right. All of us spend a fair amount of time reading, talking, and debating about cars, more than the average joe (and MUCH more than my wife!) That's why we're passionate about our cars, because they're much more than just "moving appliances" to us. I'm proud of that, and you should be as well. If not, I don't think this board is right for you.

Just because the majority of us drives midsize sedans, doesn't mean that we CAN'T enjoy what (and how) we drive. I'd LOVE to have a two-door, two-seat supercar, but it's not practical for me and my life. Why can't we have our cake and eat it too?

jeffyscott

Also ask VW what they would consider excessive oil consumption for an engine. It is 8/10 Qt. per 1,000 miles. To me that is plain wrong. Now, what I do not know is if this is some standard reply in the industry.

Yes, the typical industry standard is that up to 1 quart per 1000 miles is okay. So this is not a VW thing. Our VW has not used a detectible amount in 20,000+ miles.

I think the actual reliability differences are a lot less than many think. When my wife bought the brand new model Jetta in 2005, a no deductible extended warranty to 7 years/100,000 miles was about $1500. For an Accord, the exact same warranty from the same source (our credit union) would have cost about $1000.

VW's are ususally highly rated by CR in terms of quality and drivability. They only complain about the reliability, based on data from their flawed survey.

mz6greyghost

VW's are ususally highly rated by CR in terms of quality and drivability. They only complain about the reliability, based on data from their flawed survey.

I'm no fan of CR by any means, but VW reliability (or lack of) goes beyond their surveys.

Ask the dozen or so people I know that have owned a VW over the past decade, with their flawed electrical systems (constantly burning out bulbs, faulty door locks/alarm system, windshield wipers, dash gauges, etc.), transmissions (both manual and auto) failing after 25K-30K miles, faulty ECMs, faulty turbos on the TDIs, etc.

Their lack of reliability is no isolated incident.

robbieg

I haven't driven one but from what I have read the new Taurus is a much better car than the Five Hunderd.

With the new engine Ford fixed the major "flaw" in the Five Hundred. Since everyone knew that the engine in the Five Hundred was grossly inadequate from the onset, why did Ford even release the Five Hundred with that engine?

thegraduate

Yeah, smart guy, I picked up on that. :P

I wrote what I did for the many people that may pop in to read, and then try to look for the Accord in the full-size room, since the host said we get a lot of reader traffic as opposed to a very small fraction of those readers that post (a lot of people may likely be first timers).

zzzoom6

Fun CAN be good for the soul...but hard on the wallet if you get caught!!

You don't have to be reckless to have fun. I guess I'm lucky I'm not the drag racer type since that kind of driving is much more likely to result in tickets. And before I decide to take a corner at "fun" speeds, I always make sure I can see far enough ahead to make sure that there aren't any surprises in front of me. If there are things in the way where it's difficult to see, it's not worth the risk.

colloquor

From what I've heard, the 3.5L simply wasn't ready. After having driven both, and lived with the 3.5L for the 1,400 mile trip, I can assure you the 3.5L has some serious "grunt," and it's quiet too, not thrashy. I drove about 15% in the city, and 85% on interstates, with a 28.8MPG average. And, in response to Loren's post, on twisty two lane roads in Mississippi and Alabama, it wasn't too bad either - no Accord mind you, but equal to or better than the Camry SE I last rented.

Also, I prefer the upright seating position akin to a SAAB, Volvo, or many European cars, compared to the "legs out" position of other cars. After miles and miles of interstate driving, I'm still comfortable, unlike when I'm driving a car without that seating position. In some respects, the Five Hundred/New Taurus is a more affordable Volvo anyway, since it's built on the Volvo S80 platform - not a bad thing.

targettuning

I am old enough to have had some of the premier ( mostly MOPAR 383's @ 440's with one 340 thrown in and an occasional 390/406 Ford) muscle cars of the 60's and early 70's with my last being a 1970 Chevelle SS 396. Fun then was defined as street drag racing late at night. Well I guess that still goes on doesn't it? As I said I too like my fun but now drive sedately most of the time as I would bet 99% of the owners of these (Camry..Accord...Sonata etc.) do. I was thinking a Z-06 Corvette would be nice though.

akirby

Actually, the new Taurus is built on the D3 platform which is a modified version of the previous gen S80 platform.

And the 3.5L engine was at least 2 years later than anticipated so they would have had to postpone the Five Hundred, Freestyle and Montego for 2 years if they waited for the engine. The 3.0L was simply a stopgap measure. Same is true for the Zephyr - it was supposed to debut as the MKZ with the 3.5L but they needed something for Lincoln/Mercury dealers to sell last year after they killed the LS.

jeffyscott

I'm no fan of CR by any means, but VW reliability (or lack of) goes beyond their surveys.

Well, what I said was differences are less than many think and that CR only dislikes VWs based on reliability issues.

If I happened to like the Passat best amongst the midsize cars, reliability fears would not keep me from buying. Most (but not all) cars these days are reliable enough that it is a non-issue for me.

nissmazlover

EXCELLENT post! BRAVO! I feel the EXACT same way; and I couldn't have said it better myself. Driving my car is TOTALLY a therapeutic and rewarding experience. There aren't forums about refrigerator enthusiasts. But, car/driving enthusiasts? Too many to mention. It's for a reason.

targettuning

Yeah but even an enthusiast doesn't drive in a what?...yeah, an enthusiastic manner 100% of the time. I absolutely love cars and everything about them and as I noted in my O.P. about what defines an appliance I do care that my car is reasonably quick, quiet, comfortable, fuel efficient, handles well etc. etc. but I believe most who insist a Mazda 6, for instance, is so "head and shoulders" above the rest in all performance categories that a part-time enthusiast couldn't be happy without one are deluding themselves (well maybe deluding is too strong a word but for a lack of a better one for now I'll let it stand). Most of us only drive at less than 50% of the capability of most modern cars in this class anyhow. A V-6 Sonata for instance is fast enough (as fast as or faster than 90% here) gets similar fuel economy, is as quiet as any here, and handles and stops as well also so it is the appliance of choice for thousands ($$$ for thousands LESS $$$). It becomes nit-picking trying to define what is an enthusiasts sedan. I can scare the hell out of myself in an Accord as easily as in a Camry..just before I drop back down into a sedate cruise for the remainder of my trip. Nah, those who say they drive in such a manner as to demand a more "responsive" car all the time are kidding themselves.

benderofbows

One of my all-time favorite things to do, ever, is to drag race a cop. I'm not kidding, it is hilarious. Almost every car being discussed here can really hand it to a Crown Vic off the line.

I love it when one is next to me at a red light and after it turns green, I hear that Ford V8 start to rumble. I'll scoot as fast as I possibly can up to the speed limit, wasting the cop car in the process, and then cruise along. Every single time I have tried this, without fail, the cop leaves it floored and absolutely blasts past me at 15-20 mph over the limit. If we get caught again at the next light, we just repeat. Every cop has repeated.

Don't peel tires, just floor it to the speed limit. Nothing illegal about that. And it is so much fun.

m1miata

Well I have heard plenty of complaints about the i4 engines though and electrical problems. I remain cautious of the brand. The V6 seems better. The i5 engine is an old Audi, by any chance ???
L

moparbad

Well I have heard plenty of complaints about the i4 engines though and electrical problems.

The i4 engines are great. Just add diesel fuel and change the timing belt at recommended interval and they go forever.

elroy5

but I believe most who insist a Mazda 6, for instance, is so "head and shoulders" above the rest in all performance categories that a part-time enthusiast couldn't be happy without one are deluding themselves

I second that! None of these cars are considered appliances, by the people who drive them. And none of these cars are true sports cars either.

m1miata

no I meant the i4 gas engines, with adding a quart of oil every 1,000 miles. I know they have an i5 now. Wonder about both of those two engines though for reliability. If, that is if they are reliable, the VW Rabbit, Jetta and the Bug may be a good by.
L

jeffyscott

The I5 is only in the Jetta, not in the midsize Passat. Passat base engine is and has been a turbo 4.

We have had no problems with our I5, but at 21,000 miles or so that does not mean a whole lot...but it certainly is not burning oil.

My kid, just this week, bought a '96 Jetta I4 with just about 100K mi. I guess we'll be seeing if that one uses any oil...

mz6greyghost

...I believe most who insist a Mazda 6, for instance, is so "head and shoulders" above the rest in all performance categories that a part-time enthusiast couldn't be happy without one are deluding themselves...Nah, those who say they drive in such a manner as to demand a more "responsive" car all the time are kidding themselves.

Speak for yourself.

Yes, I don't drive at full bore 100% of the time, nor do I participate in SCCA events, but I'll buy a bicycle before settling for a softly-sprung land yacht because it "supposedly" suits the majority of my driving.

And yes, there's a LARGE difference between the way my 6 reacts when accelerating on a highway on-ramp (taut, composed) compared to a Camry and Accord (lots of body roll and lean). This, among lots of other day-to-day situations, make all the difference to me.

baggs32

And none of these cars are true sports cars either.


Owners of the SPEED6 or Legacy GT might want to argue with you about that. I know they aren't in the list of cars compared here but their prices are right in line with the V6 models of the two best sellers here and will put everything else to shame any day of the week and still serve as fully competent daily drivers.

03accordman

"And yes, there's a LARGE difference between the way my 6 reacts when accelerating on a highway on-ramp (taut, composed) compared to a Camry and Accord (lots of body roll and lean). This, among lots of other day-to-day situations, make all the difference to me."

Do you mean that the Accord and Camry react in a similar manner with regard to body roll and lean? And that the Accord is a land yatch compared to a 6?

03accordman

"Owners of the SPEED6 or Legacy GT might want to argue with you about that. I know they aren't in the list of cars compared here but their prices are right in line with the V6 models of the two best sellers here and will put everything else to shame any day of the week and still serve as fully competent daily drivers"

Well, there is something missing here, because both these cars a collosal flops (which I am puzzled about, especially for the Speed6, which seems to be a very competent car). One would tend to think they would have a niche market, but clearly that's not happened. Also, these are not cheap cars, the reason one can buy them cheap is because the major discounts on them (which is a good thing for someone really wanting one of these). I am not saying that these are not good cars, but maybe drivers preffered (at least in case of the Speed6) the lighter V6 6, compared to the AWD Speed6? Never know how the market is going to react.

targettuning

When I clearly stated "I believe" I WAS speaking for myself. Further I really don't think any car in this class really qualifies as a "land yacht" and I have yet to be flung off the road by anything I have driven in this class. You are participating in the "nit-picking" contest I spoke of. OK if a Mazda 6 is the only thing that will satisfy your perhaps overinflated need for being "one with the road" then have at it but don't presume to call everything else a "land yacht"..it isn't the only thing that won't fall on its side in a corner.

louiswei

And yes, there's a LARGE difference between the way my 6 reacts when accelerating on a highway on-ramp (taut, composed) compared to a Camry and Accord (lots of body roll and lean).

LOL, yeah right...

I have no argument about the 6 is the king of performance in the midsizer segment but it's not like it is in another class all by itself. The difference between the 6 and Accord is small but noticeable when push hard. Camry SE can hold its own against any car in this class as well. Okay, so the regular Camry is a yacht but it's mission is to satisfy a bigger crowd than the 6.

Oh, by the way, one of the difference between the V6 Mazda6, Accord V6 and Camry V6 on a highway on-ramp is that the 6 is get outrun by the other 2.

:P

backy

Another big difference between the Mazda6, Accord, and Camry is that right now I (and anyone else) can walk into my local Mazda dealer and get a very well equipped 6 MT for a bit over $16k + T&L with no haggling. What kind of Accord or Camry would you get for that price? Would it have power seat, 17" alloys, CD changer, ground effects, etc.? Plus the handling and great looks of a Mazda6?

03accordman

The Mazda6 has been going at very low prices for a long time; and it is a tough value to beat (especially now with a new gen coming out). They never did sell well; so Mazda has had to dole out discounts by the dozen to get people to buy them, unlike the Mazda3. Maybe the next gen 6 will change this, since it is supposed to be a larger car to cater to American tastes.

BTW, the year end clearance at Honda has been great as well; I have seen fairly low prices for the Accord as its ends it current cycle. However, these wouldn't comapre with Mazda6 prices.

baggs32

Also, these are not cheap cars, the reason one can buy them cheap is because the major discounts on them

That's right, and I pointed that out. They do sticker, well equipped, somewhere around $30k which is also roughly the starting price for the sportiest Camry and next Accord. I say that for the latter because all reviews of it so far say the EX V6 will start at $30k. If your intentions are sporting then you are much better off with a SPEED6 or Legacy GT IMO. Those two are true sports cars and fall in this class.

baggs32

Oh, by the way, one of the difference between the V6 Mazda6, Accord V6 and Camry V6 on a highway on-ramp is that the 6 is get outrun by the other 2.


If the 6 in question has an MTX then it will stay right with them particularly if the ramp has a curve in it which most do. At least around here anyway.

03accordman

"If the 6 in question has an MTX then it will stay right with them particularly if the ramp has a curve in it which most do. At least around here anyway. "

Not really, is the Accord has MT as well. Will still pull away.