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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    huh? Premium is NOT required for either the VQ or the 2GR either.

    VQ:

    For improved vehicle performance, NISSAN recommends
    the use of unleaded premium gasoline
    with an octane rating of at least 91 AKI number
    (Research octane number 96).

    Page 9-3 of 2006 Nissan Altima Owner's Manual

    2005 Toyota Avalon Performance & Efficiency Standard Features
    - 3,456 cc 3.5 liters V 6 front engine with 94 mm bore, 83 mm stroke, 10.8 compression ratio, double overhead cam, variable valve timing/camshaft and four valves per cylinder 2GR-FE
    - Premium unleaded fuel 91
    - Fuel economy EPA highway (mpg): 31 and EPA city (mpg): 22
    - Multi-point injection fuel system
    - 18.5 gallon main premium unleaded fuel tank
    - Power: 209 kW , 280 HP SAE @ 6,200 rpm; 260 ft lb , 353 Nm @ 4,700 rpm

    Incidentally, the GM 3.6 recommends premium as well in the CTS.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    That meets the definition of not required to me. Of course, the caveat is worse gas mileage and poorer performance on non-premium gas.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Your condescension is not appreciated. :mad:

    I'm sorry, but the clear meaning of that sentence, as written in that two sentence paragraph, is that Honda had 3 vehicles in the top 10 in March. There is absolutely no indication that they are talking about anything other than March sales, in the paragraph. If they wanted the meaning that you are giving it, then they should have written it differently. Either way, while a minor mistake, it is poor editing.

    Are we done now?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    recommending and requiring are certainly 2 different things - the Toyota 2GR in the Camry is rated at 268hp running reqular, the mechanically identical ES is rated at 272 hp running premium - the Avalon when it first came out was rated way up at 280hp with premium as you note, a combination of some rating rule changes as well as the gas change to regular has it now at 268hp as well. The engine (from 2005) has NOT changed, the 268hp 2006+ is the same only that regular gas and the SAE testing rule changes caused many mfgrs. to rerate their engines as I suspect you know. I happen to own both the 2GR(in an 05 Avalon) and a VQ in an 03 Altima- both engines have been singing along now for over 150k (combined) on Regular gas - there may be a very slight power drop (apparently ~4 HP) but there is no discernable loss in FE at all. I don't believe that any of the more current manuals say 'for maximum performance - use premium' anymore which only makes sense - people are getting much more sensitive to gas prices.
    Many of these newer V6s BTW courtesy of these more advanced engine control systems can and will run quite well on lower octanes and further can effectively use the higher octanes. For those folks out there that might have a new 3.3 in a Sonata and want a few extra HP simply put in the higher octane gas although I doubt that any normal driver will notice the difference if he/she is not on a dragstrip.
    As far as the CTS is concerned, I'm not sure how flexible that engine really is and/or how much the direct injection effects this flexiblility but it is a good engine that obviously runs fine on regular in the Malibu (and several other GM vehicles) and likely would do the same at least in the lower performance Caddys.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the caveat is worse gas mileage and poorer performance on non-premium gas
    this would seemingly only make sense although my observation is that the HP difference is as inconsequential as the Camry/ES rating difference would seem to say it is and further that there is even less difference in FE. I have a suspicion that once we get into some of this direct injection stuff found in the 2GR-FSE IS350 Lexus for example and FTM in those wonderful high performance German engines that the engine's tolerance for the lower octane stuff may be limited. Somehow I can't imagine that somebody willing to pay a premium for the privilege of driving cars like that are really too concerned about 30 or 40 cents a gallon, and those mfgrs. know that.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Since 270 HP (or whatever), in a midsize FWD sedan is ridiculously excessive, I'd think folks could probably manage to get by with the reduced performance from using non-premium gas.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Cars, in general, are selling...

    http://www.autoobserver.com/2008/05/april-car-sales.html#more

    As U.S. consumers definitively reacted to $3.50-a-gallon gasoline, passenger cars outsold truck-based vehicles for the first time in at least 20 years. The move comprised a shift of six percentage points for the industry compared with last April, to 54 percent car sales.

    Demand for cars rose 5 percent, to at least 655,000 units in April, compared with 2007, while sales of light trucks – including pickups, traditional SUVs, car-based crossovers, and minivans – plummeted by more than 17 percent, to about 716,000 from 591,000.


    Specifically mentions increased sales for several mid-sizes: Malibu, Fusion, Camry, Altima, Sonata
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Your condescension is not appreciated.

    Sorry, :cry: but it was not an editing error. It was a reading error. I understood what they meant.

    It seems you don't mind pointing out errors you think someone else made, but don't like it when someone points out your own. If you live in a glass house,.....
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    I don't know where edmunds gets its numbers, but those are wrong camry sold 40k units in march, not 31k

    link title

    and here is a second source:

    link title

    I couldn't help but laugh when I read it. edmunds has always had a bias toward the accord, but this takes the cake. they actually post incorrect sales figures so they can write an article about how wonderful and loved the new accord is despite its consitient monthly decreases in sales.

    I guess when you don't like reality, you just change it.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    hey cap, did you notice just about all the duratec engined vehicles went up in sales for april, and most are up the the year too! HA! HA! ;)
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Edmunds.com must be counting the Solara separately from the Camry, while other sources do not.

    So I wonder if they are consistent and count the Matrix separately from the Corolla?
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    who knows, I just found it amusing. when I saw the numbers, I knew something was wrong. accord sales have been going south since the redesign. well, with the exception of the first month or two all the people waiting on it rushed out to buy one. I guess that bothered edmunds enough (since they welcomed it as the second coming) to manipulate the numbers to make it look like the best selling vehicle, and then write some article claiming as much. the only thing I've never understood is the why. Does the staff all own accords or something? do they own stock in honda? I mean it one thing to write questionable comparisons to other vehicles, but it quite another to engage in the kind of sloppy journalism that the before mentioned article engaged in.

    and the better question would be, if they count the coupe version (and probably the hybrid) separately with the camry, why not the accord?
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    Thought you were talking about "refinement". The 3.0 Liter version of the Duratec in my car makes about 240 HP and 206 Ft-Lbs of torque. It's high compression (10.5 to 1) and has a triple level induction system on it. Totally stock - It'll pull strongly from off idle to redline with the smoothness of a gas turbine. It gives my heavy AWD car very respectable performance and decent fuel economy.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Ok, so we already know that Consumer Reports is Honda biased. And apparently Edmunds is now part of the conspiracy. Can you enlighten me as to what other publications have been brainwashed by Honda? Do you think Car&Driver are in on it too? :surprise: A Congressional Hearing may be in order. ;)
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    image

    image
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    Will you please stop beating that dead horse.......
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    well, what would you call edmunds manipulating the numbers to make a false claim elroy? sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. but it's not a big deal, and nothing most people don't already know. Just a little surprising that they would risk their integrity like that.

    the part I found amusing was more the reaction here. the way people declared that honda really was right in making it bigger, and it just took people a little longer to "warm up" to it. when in reality the assumptions are based on misleading, if not false, numbers. And in the end, the 2008 accord is selling worse than the 2007.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    the better question would be, if they count the coupe version (and probably the hybrid) separately with the camry, why not the accord?

    While the model name is the reason, they certainly should have at least mentioned this. Dare I suggest that this is another sign of poor editing/writing ;) ?

    Not that it would change "best selling model", but this problem is not limited to the Solara issue. GM, Ford, and Chrysler often have multiple versions of the same vehicle. Should Fusion, Milan, and MKZ be added together? Should Malibu and it's siblings be added together? Sebring and Avenger?
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Actually, I was more impressed that the Accord outsold the F150 in March and probably April. Or did they manipulate those numbers too?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Could it possibly be fleet sales were excluded? What you term manipulating may be accurate reporting. Although the article probably should have noted that.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    More significant than any individual model's sales, is April had cars, overall, outselling trucks for the first time in 20 years, per article linked in post 9523.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    For all those interested. Mazda's Canadian web site has posted numerous 2009 Mazda6 pics, including interior shots. IMO, the car looks very sharp. Great job by Mazda's design team.

    http://www.mazda.ca/root.asp
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Who knows who is manipulating what? I just thought it was about time people stopped buying full size trucks and SUVs they didn't need, and using them as commuter vehicles. Too bad gas prices had to get extreme, before many saw the error of their ways. Most midsize cars (even with V6 engines) get almost twice the mileage of large trucks and SUVs.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Well 50% better, based on EPA numbers anyway. Accord V6 auto is rated 19/29 while F150 is 13/17 or 14/19 depending on engine. This comes to maybe $800-1500 per year less spent on gas for most.

    Many are apparently trading pick ups for small cars, that would get double the mpg or better, though. They'd likely be saving $100-200 per month on gas at the current price.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Many are apparently trading pick ups for small cars, that would get double the mpg or better, though. They'd likely be saving $100-200 per month on gas at the current price.

    All midsize cars are selling well right now, so I think many truck and SUV owners are switching to them. They still want something roomy, comfortable, and relatively powerful, so the V6 models are doing very well. Someone who's been driving a Tahoe, is not likely to go all the way down to an Aveo.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Not clear what "small car means, but the article includes this:

    Now at last one pickup is on the top-10 trade-in list for nearly every small car model, according to George Pipas, chief U.S. sales analyst for Ford.

    Midsize sales are up, but so are small cars, the ones I see mentioned are:

    Chevrolet Aveo +23 percent in April
    Focus +44%
    Yaris +58%
    Mazda3 +15%
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    Just like Edmund's TCO figures are wrong. If you look at the Sonata, the TCO estimates are based on a purchase price well in excess of real street prices for someone getting a "fair" deal compared to a "real good" deal.

    Even Edmund's TMV uses a different purchase price than the TOC price. Quite puzzling.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    Here is something I noticed....It seems Push button start is going to be apart of a "Technology Pkg" of some sort because Push button isn't standard...

    Have a look for yourselves. The lower center console is different on Nav and Non-Nav model. Push button is on the center console of the Navigation model, traditional key is found on the lower side of the steering column.

    Not crazy about the "blonde" wood trim.
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    According to the June issue of Car & Driver, page 31, the 2010 Suzuki Kizashi 3 will go on sale in Japan in late 2009 and reach U.S. dealerships in early 2010. Arguable the Kizashi 3 will be the sexiest sport sedan on the road in 2010.
    http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/20/new-york-2008-suzuki-unveils-kizashi-3-concep- - t-coming-in-2010/

    The Kizashi 3 is a tad smaller than a Mazda6 but slightly larger than a BMW 3 Series sedan and will be powered by a (front or all-wheel drive) 2.5 inline-four or a 260 hp 3.6-liter DOHC V6 engine derived from GM’s high-feature V-6, the same engine found in the Cadillac CTS and Malibu. Base prices will start in the $21,000-to-$28,000 price range.

    The Kizashi 3 will sit on 110.2-inch wheelbase identical to the Honda Accord. The new sedan will spawn a wagon version and a crossover to replace the current XL7.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    What is so special about this? Visually it's ugly. 21 inch wheels are outrageously bad, in the real world smaller is better. The 3.6 liter engine? So what? Is Suzuki trying the Hyundai Genesis approach. Load 'er up with a lot of gadgets and doo-dads and hope it sells?
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    kdshapiro, I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder but perhaps you missed this video.
    http://videos.streetfire.net/video/New-York-2008-Suzuki-Kizashi-3-concept-reveal- ed_154702.htm
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The show car had 21" wheels. I think the odds of those making production, except maybe as an option, are close to nil. The 3.6L V6 is supposed to be the same as the one in the Aurabu, and in that application it's no slouch.

    The previous Suzuki mid-sizer, the Verona, wasn't competitive. This new design looks on paper to be fully competitive. So I think that is a good thing--yet another option for mid-sized sedan buyers, and a Japanese-made car at that. In fact, when it arrives it could be the only mid-sized family sedan sold in the U.S. sourced entirely from Japan.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    The front looks like a Buddha having a big laugh.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I think there is a trend towards facial expressions on Japanese vehicles. That Toyota iCar thing I think started it, but like even the new Mazda6 looks like its smiling. I always thought the E36 front looked menacing.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I have been poking around in a few non-Mazda forums gathering non-Mazda owners opinions on the new Mazda6, and there seems to be a consensus among them that the car is the greatest thing since sliced bread. That is something that Mazda is looking for. However, the current Mazda owners seems to think the complete opposite, and are bashing the car. That, Mazda was definitely not expecting.

    I'm still reserving my final judgment until I drive it. I do like what I see so far. If I had never seen the JDM Mazda6, I would like this one even better.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Aviboy, I noticed the same thing! It appears that the new Mazda 6 might bring a lot more buyers to the brand even if it turns off a few Mazda loyalists.

    From what I have seen so far, the 2009 Mazda 6 would absolutely be at the top of my list among mid-size sedans. I have had several of the current generation Mazda 6s as rentals and like them OK - except for the noisy 4 cyl engine - but I would never have considering buying one. The 2009 with the 3.7 engine will be a definite possibility, though.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I have noticed the same thing simply by chance, not really looking for it. I have thought the new design was great from the beginning, especially the view from the rear. Now that I have seen the video I think it is really sharp overall. I think some Mazda6 owners will not be satisfied until it looks and drives like a Ferrari but still costs $20,000 or so. Cake and eat it too syndrome in my opinion.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    I think some Mazda6 owners will not be satisfied until it looks and drives like a Ferrari but still costs $20,000 or so. Cake and eat it too syndrome in my opinion.

    Or:
    1. They're a little annoyed that they didn't wait to get the '09 and got a '07-'08 instead.
    2. They're too young and/or ignorant to fully realize that the Mazda6 is supposed to be a Midsize Sedan, and not a riced-out Civic with graphics, 22" wheels and a two-tiered wing that can double as a set of bleachers. :)

    Of the other Midsize Sedans, Mazda's got a winner IMO. Being a current 6 owner, I'd like to think that my tastes have matured since 2004, and so has the second-gen 6.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I have noticed the same thing simply by chance, not really looking for it

    Initially, I noticed it by chance, then I said to myself "myself, I wonder if this really is the thought out there". So, I looked and I confirmed my suspicions.

    I think some Mazda6 owners will not be satisfied until it looks and drives like a Ferrari but still costs $20,000

    I think most Mazda owners are bummed about no hatch and no mtx in the V6, as am I. However, I will still look at it, because Mazda has appeared to improve on what needed improvement. From what I am hearing on the Mazda front, the pricing will relatively stay close to what it is now. That's a good thing.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Of the other Midsize Sedans, Mazda's got a winner IMO. Being a current 6 owner, I'd like to think that my tastes have matured since 2004, and so has the second-gen 6.

    I'm right there with you on that.

    What I have been hearing is that our new 6 got quite bigger. Not as big as Camcord, but quite possibly near the size of the Altima. The more and more I hear from my Mazda buddies, the more I begin to think Mazda looked at Nissan's success with the Altima, and went that route in engineering the Mazda6.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Well, neither of your two options apply to me and I do not care about the hatchback or V6 (with or without manual trans), but then I'm not hating the new one. I just like the one I got better (appearance is about all that I can evaluate at this time) and am glad I didn't wait. I had considered waiting, as I thought maybe slightly bigger (Fusion size) would be good.

    Because a number of cars were equally acceptable based on more important attributes, appearance and price were really the deciding factors for me in choosing the Mazda6. I doubt the pricing will be as favorable and appearance-wise, I'm not sure if the new mazda6 would be my top pick. I don't really think there is anything that will be out next year that would clearly stand out for me in terms of appearance, like the mazda6 did in 2006-07. But, of course, personal tastes in styling varies.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    the more I begin to think Mazda looked at Nissan's success with the Altima, and went that route in engineering the Mazda6

    I think it had a LOT more to do with sharing Ford's CD platform (I forget if it's CD3 - Fusion - or EUCD - Mondeo - or some combination) which is larger than the previous Mazda6.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    The NA Mazda6 is built on the same platform as the 2009 JDM Mazda6 and 2003-2008 NA Mazda6, which is the GG/GY platform that Ford adopted and renamed CD3. Technically, it is a Mazda platform.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It started as a Mazda platform but Ford modified it for the Fusion, then modified it again for the Edge. It doesn't make sense that Mazda would re-engineer the 03-08 platform to make it larger when the CD3 platform was already available.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    It doesn't make sense that Mazda would re-engineer the 03-08 platform to make it larger when the CD3 platform was already available.

    But they did, since it was theirs to modify in the first place. It's also known that the next Fusion will be also on the updated CD3 platform.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    So why would Mazda spend all that money to re-engineer the old platform when Ford had already done most of that work with CD3? I'm not saying they didn't change anything, but I'm sure they started with the CD3 platform instead of their old Mazda6 platform. The CD3 was already large enough for the D37 engine.

    When the CD3 and EUCD platforms merge I'm sure the Mazda6 will use that one as well. Successful companies don't reinvent the wheel.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I think most Mazda owners are bummed about no hatch and no mtx in the V6, as am I.

    I see a lot of that but a lot are also calling the front end downright ugly and add that the euro styling rear is a lot sharper which I think is a crock. I love the NA version exhaust pipes.

    Also, I don't have to dislike my current 07 "6" to appreciate the looks of the new one.
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    Personally I've found the 2009 Sonatas are currently about 1500-2000 more compared to the older model currently. A decent spread, but not enough to push anyone away from the obviously better car. It's in my opinion that the new 2009 interior of the sonata is fully comparable and/or better than anything in the accord/camry/fusion/etc. Although I can't say too much about the american mid-sized boys without actually sitting inside.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Here's some interesting news:

    Hyundai and Microsoft team up

    MS press release

    In brief, Hyundai and Microsoft are working on a "Sync"-like system that will be available in some Hyundai products beginning in 2010. Should be interesting to see how much technology they actually incorporate into it.

    And please, no BSOD jokes! ;)
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    I think the whole aspect of ford using this as a huge marketing device in the focus is making other companies pay attention. Also it's damn cheap to make and use from what I've heard. Way less than other audio systems out there. I just hope nobody needs to start rebooting their audio systems ;) (See no BSOD JOKE!)
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