Midsize Sedans 2.0

pat

The email notifications are by individual discussions, not by a message subject within a discussion. As I said, you will only get an email notification for the first unread message posted in the discussion where you requested email notifications. After you have logged in and read that message, you will get an email notification for the next new message.

Let's say a new message is posted after you have read all the messages in the discussion. You will get an email notification for that message. But let's say you do not log in and read that message right away and then ten more new messages are posted before you get there. You will not receive notifications for each of those since you've not yet read the first one about which you were notified. So when you get to the discussion, you will have had one email notification about the first of the eleven new messages waiting for you. (And again, this is regardless of subject line, it applies to all new messages in the discussion.)

Is that clearer? The bottom line is that it may appear to be intermittent, but there is a method and a reason for it, honest! Understanding how it works is the best way to make it work for you instead of just confusing you.

backy

Looking at it from an outsider's viewpoint, MT recently reviewed 10 cars in this class and ranked the Optima 6th overall. A decent showing for a car that is (incredibly) one of the oldest designs in the class now. It was topped by the Passat (which costs a LOT more and has a lot more power), the 2009 Sonata SE (which benefits from mid-gen improvements, many of which the Optima receives for 2009), the Accord, and two others that I don't specifically recall offhand but maybe they were the Camry and Fusion SEL. So is Optima best-in-class? Likely not. But is it a capable, pleasant, quality mid-sized sedan available at a bargain price? Definitely. For those (like me) who have no need to drive a car that others consider best-in-class if it meets my needs, the Optima is a fine choice.

jeffyscott

Well, CR also called the ride "supple". To me that means soft and would agree with my own impression.

The car does not happen appeal to me for a number of reasons that I stated on here a couple times. It does appeal to others, such as yourself. Not sure why you see that a problem. There would not be much to discuss here, if there were no differences of opinion.

mickeyrom

I did not know that the Jags had 4 wheel drive.He has a 2003 S model,maybe it's different. I'm sure it's a better car than my $22K Optima,but then it should be when you consider the price and the "snob" value. It obviously one of it's selling point.
BTW he bought it used,so I don't know what it cost him,but I believe the S is in the 60K range when new.Am I mistaken?
BTW again,my stepson has the big Jag,and honestly I love it,but it did not feel very "sporty" to me.

akirby

Only the Jag X-type had AWD, not the S-type.

mickeyrom

There is no problem,just surprised on how harsh your criticism was.Maybe you didn't mean it that way.Am I being paranoid?
You did not mention what you drove,so it would be nice to what it came out second best.Quoting reviews from test drives falls short of driving it for almost two years and 20K miles.

mickeyrom

Thank you,now I know

mickeyrom

That was my point Jeffy.To see the Optima as a a soft ride,you must be driving a Corvette.Comprende my friend ? In other words the Vette rides so hard that almost anything else sems soft.

jeffyscott

Never been a a Corvette.

My anti-optima-ism is not really about the ride, it is the handling. But overly "supple" (to use CR's term, whom I quoted merely to back-up my own impressions) rides and undesireable (to me) handling characteristics generally seem to go together in this class of cars.

I drive a Mazda6 and while the ride is certainly firmer than an optima, I would not call it uncomfortable or hard and certainly not harsh. The handling is so much tighter and more responsive, than the rental optima that I had to be very careful to keep my car under control when I drove my Mazda home from the airport. "Oh, I turn the wheel just a little and the car changes direction instead of continuing in a straight line" .

What did you drive before the Optima?

explorerx4

kind of hesitant interrupting the discussion, but in my experience, many rental cars have the tire pressure set very low. i guess they get less complaints about soft handling versus a hard ride.

mickeyrom

I have never been in a Mazda,let alone driven one.I have heard good things about them,so I am not about to argue with you about it's qualities. I am not sure what the term "handling" means to you,but to me it's how responsive it is to the driver's touch on the wheel. I am quite satisfied with it's handilng maybe because my other car is a Chrysler Town and Country.Now that one does not handle very well.
I keep my tires at 35Psi and the ride is very firm.If I had the 17 wheels,I think it would be almost unbearable.Oh well..."different strokes for different folks"
PS I would bet that mazda 6 as well equipped as my Optima (leather, heated seats,moonroof,six disc changer,etc.etc.etc)would probably cost a lot more,and I think value has it's own quality.

oldcem

OK - I'm with you now. I have an X Type - It's the only Jag Model with AWD. The S was a good bit more expensive new than what I'm driving. When I priced the S in 06, the new 6 cylinder models were running in the upper $40 K range, and, the top of the line 400 HP V8 R models were around $60K. The dealer had a certified pre-owned 6 cylinder one that he kept trying to sell me, but, the car, while very plush inside, just didn't appeal to me. I didn't even test drive it, and, have to agree with you. Didn't think it was worth the money.

Regards:
Oldengineer

backy

I have driven the Mazda6 numerous times and it does handle more crisply than the Optima. But the Optima is definitely a sharper handler than cars like the Camry and Sonata, and even the 2008 Accord, while it does have a "supple" ride (which I see as a positive and not the same as "soft"). So someone who highly values crisp handling would probably not find the Optima to his liking, nor would he like most cars in this class.

jeffyscott

I would bet that mazda 6 as well equipped as my Optima (leather, heated seats,moonroof,six disc changer,etc.etc.etc)would probably cost a lot more,and I think value has it's own quality.

You might be have been surprised, they were commonly available at about $5000 below MSRP in many areas, after all rebates and discounts. I paid $16K, but mine does not have leather or moonroof (because, I don't like leather or moonroofs) so can't really compare. Assuming I'd have gotten the same $5000 off on the leatherized Mazda6i touring with moon roof, it appears that it would have been about $18,700.

mickeyrom

I went to a Mazda site and built a 6 to make it comparable with mine.It came to just under 25 grand,which is almost 3K more than mine. Nobody in my area is discounting (any make) 4 cylinder sedans by 5K and Mazda is not discounting at all.
I live in Illinois near the Iowa border,and you will not find any of those ridiculous discounts unless you're looking at an expensive minivan or SUV,and only certain brands,like Hyundai or KIA.

m6user

I think the key word in Jeffy's response was "were" on the Mazda6 pricing. He is referring to the 2008/2007s before the new Mazda6 which is what you are pricing on the Mazda web. Don't know why you would compare a newly redesigned model that just came out with no discounting to your Optima pricing.

a 2008 Mazda6 equipped as he described was selling all over Chicagoland for $5k to $5.5k off sticker. Chicago area is not that far from where you live and I'm sure heavy discounting went out to Central IL just to stay competitive with the Chicago market. That is not far from where you live.

mickeyrom

.....Wrooooong!
I priced a 2008, and I have never seen a current model of any brand with a 4 cylinder engine discounted anywhere close to $5000.At any rate we are going way off subject,so ...have a nice day...peace...

akirby

2008 Mazda6 4 cylinder currently has a $2750 factory rebate, so $5K total discount sounds pretty close.

moveover

.....Wrooooong!
I priced a 2008, and I have never seen a current model of any brand with a 4 cylinder engine discounted anywhere close to $5000.At any rate we are going way off subject,so ...have a nice day...peace...

I just bought a 2008 Mazda6 4 cylinder with a MSRP of $22.1K for $17K before taxes and DMV fees. so a 5.1K discount.

I also had the option to buy a fully loaded IGT for 20.5K which included leather, heated seats, sunroof, Bi-XEON's etc

mickeyrom

PS..I just researched this discount.It is only for the 4 door Mazda6 sport,not the touring,unless you get the 5 door hatchback.In other words I could not match what I have now without spending at least a couple mote thou.That is my only point.

akirby

To use your words.....Wrrooonnngggg!

The $2750 is for all Mazda6 sedans and hatchbacks. Where did it say otherwise?

mickeyrom

On the Lujack motors site.It's located in Davenport Ia....Look,I am not buying a Mazda or anything else.When I bought my car,that option did not exist,so can we drop the subject.God how I wish I had not strted this thread.I think I will just delete it.Have a nice day,
Allan Birmantas

jeffyscott

we are going way off subject

:confuse:

Is comparing the pricing of midsize sedans is considered to be off-topic here in the midsize sedans comparison discussion?

Clearly you are surprised by what the actual selling price of the Mazda6 had been, as I had postulated . The point being that Kia and Hyundai are not the only lower priced options in the midsize segment. The Mazda6 and at times Ford Fusion (which had $4000 rebates not too long ago, IIRC) have presented similar values (to Sonata and Optima) in terms of selling prices.

The 2008 Mazda6i touring, with the optional moonroof added, has MSRP of $23760 and invoice is $21,926. You must be looking at a grand touring to get up to $25K in a 4 cyl. Based on edmunds model review the grand touring vs. the touring adds: xenon headlights, foglamps, a sunroof, electroluminescent gauges, automatic climate control and an auto-dimming rearview mirror.

These were usually selling at or below invoice in the Chicago and Milwaukee areas, so that would be around $21,900 for the touring and $23,000 for the grand touring. They have had rebates of $2500-3000 nearly continuously for at least 2-3 years...so that puts the final price at about $19,000-$19,500 for the touring and $20,000 to $20,500 for the grand touring for just about anyone who asked.

At auto show time (in 2007, not sure about 2008) Mazda even had an extra $1000 rebate in this area, that was available on top of the normal $3000ish rebates.

Not sure why you are so defensive/irritated, we are just sharing information. No one is saying "hey, you should have bought something else", we are just comparing mid-size sedan info...kind of the point here, I thought.

backy

I've tracked Mazda6 and Optima prices for some time and I can verify that it is indeed possible to get a discount of $5k or so on a 2008 Mazda6. At a little over $16k for a Mazda6i VE, it was a pretty compelling deal for me... EXCEPT no ESC on the 2008 Mazda6i (it's hard to find on the Optima, but possible). However, the Optima LX is available pretty nicely equipped e.g. 17" alloys, fogs, leather wheel etc. with ESC for around $15k or less, depending on the rebates (they are a little lower now than earlier in the year). With the ESC, better fuel economy, interior room, and warranty, plus the better price, I still have my eyes on the Optima but not on the 2008 Mazda6i.

jeffyscott

I was curious about Optima pricing, so I took a look at that and it turns out the Optima currently has a $3000 to $4000 rebate on the 2008 :surprise: . That is a huge rebate for a car that is already cheap. Looks like the top of the line would now be available at perhaps around $18,000 and maybe $13,000 for the base.

mickeyrom

I started this thread only because there were no other threads about a Kia Optima.As far as the price,I was talking MSRP...mine was around 23K aand a comparable Mazda6 was around 25K.I consider 2K a LOT of money,maybe some don't.I got very little discount when I bought my KIA because at the time it was a brand new redisign.I had terrible timing.KIA does have one indisputable advantage.That is the warranty.(or has Mazda copied that too?) If Mazda is discounting their cars so much,does that devalue their used ones ?and those should have no more value than KIAs and Hyundais

mickeyrom

You're kidding!!!!!!!!!

moveover

In 2006 MAZDA had the 50/4 yr bumper to bumper and reduced that in 2007 to 36/3 yr with a 60/5yr drive train

According to a leading German publication the Mazda6 is the most reliable car for the first 100,000 km

Btw. 2007 Mazda6 ex-rentals (Hertz) are selling for $15-16k with 30K

m6user

Btw. 2007 Mazda6 ex-rentals (Hertz) are selling for $15-16k with 30K

That would be nice but Mickeyrom is correct I feel about the discounting/rebates affecting resale values. I don't doubt that Hertz is asking that much for them but I would highly doubt they are getting close to those prices.

Unless of course they take them to somewhere in the country where "people have never seen $5000 off of MSRP for a 4 cyl. car" before.

jeffyscott

It may be that edmunds is mistaken on the rebates it appears they were, perhaps, combining rebates that can not be combined...so might be $2000-3000 instead:

http://www.kia.com/incentives/apr_cashback_central.php

Note that I also assume that one could buy at invoice, since the car is no longer a new model.

mickeyrom

The $3K discount,or cash back,applies only to the 6 cyl Optima.The 2008 Optima I4 gets $2K back.Tried to find one with MSRP of #16K. Good luck...I tried.Hyundai has a bigger discount,but the MSRP is higher.

m6user

If you look to the right you will see that the 2009 Sonata has 66 consumer reviews and the 2009 Camry has 54 reviews. I believe the 2009 Camry started selling a few weeks before the 09 Sonata.

My question is: Why is there more Sonata reviews when the Camry must have outsold the Sonata by huge numbers?

jeffyscott

Hertz is like carmax, their web site says:

With our low fixed prices you have the advantage. You get all the value and savings without the aggravation of pushy salesmen and high-price negotiations.

http://www.hertzcarsales.com/advantages/advantage.jsp

I see $14-15K on their site, only lists cars in CA and HI, but still...

They probably figure people will be comparing them to the 2009 model, so selling them for probably about what they paid might just work. It is nuts, though...I've only got 13K on my 2007, maybe I can sell for more than the $16K that I paid .

backy

Maybe because fewer Camry shoppers/owners visit sites like Edmunds.com? Who needs to visit sites like this to do research etc. when the decision is a foregone conclusion? Just a thought...

m6user

You might be right. Although the Camry forums seem to be pretty active. Maybe they figure that what more is there to say about a Camry. Actually, I think Camrys are good cars and I refuse to slam them just because there's so many of them. IMHO they have slid some in quality in recent years(both material and build) but are still very competitive. I really believe some people just can't stand them because they have been #1 for so long. It's more fun rooting for the underdog.

Hey, maybe that's why the Sonata owners offer more reviews....they are sticking up for the underdog!

Any psychologists think that may be the answer?

backy

The Camry is a good car, definitely. But look to the right--there's LOTS of "good cars" there. That's not enough any more to stand out in this class. Reliability? Others have good records there too. I would have no problem putting my family into a Camry.... IF it were in the same price ballpark as solid options like the Fulan, Mazda6, Optima, and Sonata. I'm just not willing to pay extra for the Camry, especially since it is deficient in some areas e.g. handling, and interior/exterior design, compared to others in this class.

mickeyrom

Hey Backy,fancy meeting you here.Where do you live,and what do you own?

backy

Twin Cities. Elantra GT, Mazda 626, Mazda MPV. And soon one more... TBD.

moveover

Just look at the Carmax site, they are selling a 2007 Mazda6 I Sport, (not VE) with 20k for $17.7 stock #: 5366031 Rebates might effect resale value, but those rebates might be gone next year. i.e. don't think the 2009 will have a rebate. Not every one is hanging out at these forums looking at prices paid :sick: Even Mickeyrom admitted he might have paid too much for his Optima.

m6user

I hear you on the 09s however I think auto sales are in the tank so bad the manufacturers may have to do things that they normally wouldn't do in the past. It wouldn't shock me to see rebates on the 09 Mazda6 by Jan/Feb timeframe. Lots of other cars in the annual car shows will start to take center stage and Mazda just may have to sell some cars.

It would be really interesting to see the actual prices these cars eventually go for. That price is $1200 more than I paid for my 07 and I have 17,000 miles. I understand Carmax is a no negotiation place but that doesn't mean they never lower there stated prices. I have yet to hear somebody report or chime in "OMG I didn't know these things sold for $16500 new...I just paid $17,700 for one with 20k on it".

I just went on Cars.com and pulled up used Mazda6s for sale in Chicago area and the majority of the the 07s with similar mileage have asking prices of around $14,900. I assume those prices are negotiated down to something between $13k and $14k. Even if it's $13k---that's not bad 1st year depreciation from $16500. That's 21% and lots of cars suffer that or more depreciation in the first year. Now if you're talking off of original MSRP, it's closer to 38% but nobody paid MSRP.

aviboy97

"I don't doubt that Hertz is asking that much for them but I would highly doubt they are getting close to those prices. "

Oh, they are getting those prices. That is about the prices at the auctions as well. Crazy huh??? So much for crappy resale....

I just passed on a 2004 Mazda6 i Sport (spoiler, fog lights, side skirts, sport front and rear bumpers) with leather / moon roof / Bose Audio / automatic with 53,000 on the clock for $12,500 at the auction!

mickeyrom

What is a TBD? You should watch "Car Crazy" on the speed channel.Or better yet watch the hour long "Top Gear" on BBC America.It's a great show for people who like cars.You must be a "car guy" like me.Just like em for some silly reason.

m6user

I just did a search on for 2007 Mazda6s within 50 miles of my zip code in NW Chicago suburbs which would include a lot of Milwaukee and Chicago and there were 84 2007 Mazda6 listings. Only one was over $17499 and that was a crazy price of $19,982 for an I4 GT. Yeah, I'm sure that Ford dealer will get that.

Anyway, of these 84, the vast majority are asking below $16,000. Only 23 are asking above that. I underlined asking as you know as well as I do that used cars prices are highly negotiable, even moreso than new car prices usually. So, I don't know what kind of auctions you guys attend, but I would think that wholesale prices are well below these amounts. I mean how can new car dealers sell 2007 Mazda6s for $15,000 if they are paying anything near that at auctions or for trade-ins???

aviboy97

Wow, not in my area. I went to cars.com and in my area ( NY, CT, NJ ) 07's are going for at least $17,000!! As I said before, CRAZY!!

m6user

Boy, we should start a business of buying them for $12-13k in Chicago(that's what they have to go for at wholesale I would think), transporting them to your area and selling them for $16k or so. If we could make $2-3k guaranteed it would easily pay for transport and a nice $2000-$2500 profit on each one.

Now, if I thought for a minute that was actually possible I might just do it. But there is something wrong with this picture. Are the asking and getting prices in your area crazy? By that I mean do people ask $18,000 but end up selling for $13000 and is that common?.

aviboy97

By that I mean do people ask $18,000 but end up selling for $13000 and is that common?.

Nope.

As I said, these stikin' Mazda's go for crazy money at the auctions over here. They are going for $2,000-$3,000 over Glaves Book. Not to mention that most of the cars end up needing some sort of re conditioning like tires and fluid changes. Add that to shipping costs, they get quite pricey. That is why you see them listing for $17,000. If you want to get technical, $16,990.

backy

TBD = To Be Determined, meaning I haven't decided which car yet. Have several in my sights, including the 2008 Optima and 2009 Sonata. Looking for something close to $15k max before TT&L. I really, really want ESC on it so that narrows down the field quite a bit.

moveover

In my area used car prices for 4 cylinders have gone way up. Have not seen the new one's going up as much. Many people who buy these car frequently have a harder time getting financing etc. Probably paying over 10% for a car loan. When I came to this country from Europe in 1980 and wanted to buy a new car I ended up paying 20% interest, I paid that thing off in a year. :sick:

A big dealer here in the DC area with many brands sold their last Mazda6 VE last week for around $17200. (no haggle internet price) A similair car used at their sister Nissan store is also $17200 :confuse: http://www.fitzmall.com/fitzway/carfind/RESULTSB.ASP?V_XREFID=R13WR0022839654390- - 62

I started shopping for my car in early May and the best deals were to be had around memorial day on Mazda's both 3 and 6's. Right now the 3's are at least $500 above invoice. I do see discounting on the 09 6's already, as seen at Fitzmall.com

kartez

Sorry grad, I've been quite busy over the last few days.

My friend was referring to the inside of the car not the skin and the way it drove. I don't think I conveyed it clearly. Also, I agree with most folks that voted against the Passat. The new Passat, I feel, is a step down from the B5/B5.5. When time comes to replace my Passat (in 6-8 months), I will most likely will not look at the cars listed in this forum and probably because I will be buying a wagon. My criteria is that it should be a) reasonably sized, b) is fun to drive, c) have decent fuel economy and d) have stick shift.

I am open to suggestions.

m6user

Now I would agree with you about the financing if it were not for the fact that the Chicago area has one of the largest immigrant population in the US. BTW, mortgage interest rates in 1980 were around 11-12% so a car loan for 20% wasn't all that bad.

The $17,200 for the 08 Mazda6 is probably about $600-$800 more than they are going for in Chicago although there are very few 08s left. I've seen some used priced at maybe 16,900 with very low miles but that is obviously not what they are getting for them. I would think that $17,200 used car will end up getting bought for no more than $16000 if that.