Midsize Sedans 2.0

kdshapiro

What you cite is not the case on the 550, 650, 750, 335. I just got done driving 'em all (2007 models), all the while being able to easily use i-drive at 50 mph. The DSC was either on, partially on or off. Simply controlled by a button on the console. Having been used to a stability system for a few years, I trusted the way it works in these vehicles. (I do agree the 750 is a techno dream come true).

So let's say I couldn't disagree more with your post about the way BMW DSC works. The purpose of a stability system is to control the car in ways you can't. You do not have to be Mario Andretti to appreciate a good DSC saving your bacon, while not being intrusive.

kdshapiro

"We bought the option as a safety feature, but pushing the car to the point where it might intervene is asking for trouble because it might not be able to save you. It is really for emergencies."

You are correct, it's sort of like believing air-bags will save your life in a collision no matter what. All of these safety features combine in an attempt to keep you out of the morgue if possible.

explorerx4

i think urnews can expect the gas mileage to rise 3-5% per year for at least the next couple of years. i am not sure when it will peak. there are a lot of parts that need to break in with an awd vehicle.

urnews

The good indicator is that urnews got 22 MPG on the route his Fusion goes on now.

Whoa, TheGraduate, not I. But I wish it were so. Our SEL AWD 2007 Fusion get 14.8 mpg in city driving. On the one road trip we took, 360 miles round trip, we got 26 mpg going and 24 mpg returning.

For the first 2,000 miles on the car we got an insane 13 mpg. The 14.8 figure is an improvement achieved over the last 1,000 miles. The car now has 3,000 miles on it.

I'd have a pleasurable heart attack if the Fusion ever delivered 22 mpg in city driving. You have me confused with someone else. The revised EPA estimates for this power train are 17 mpg city, 24 highway.

The people who are squawking the loudest about the Fusion's poor mileage are the AWD owners. Regular V6 and I4 owners are reporting descent mileage.

My wife (who doesn't really care about mileage) and I really like everything else about the car, are totally satisfied.

Our 2000 Ford Focus station wagon, I4 2.0 liter, 4-speed automatic, delivers 22 mpg over the same commute route. That's a little low too, but not so noticeable.

akirby

Interesting that none of you who are spouting off about stability control could explain how it works.

In a car it senses whether the car is understeering (you're turning left but the car keeps going straight) or oversteering (the rear end starts to slide around) and corrects it by cutting the throttle or torque and/or applying brakes to one or more wheels. In the case of understeer (on a left turn) it will apply brakes to the left rear wheel which will pull the front back to the left in line with the steering input.

This is monitored with a yaw sensor and requires 4 channel ABS so that one wheel can be independently braked. Since the Fusion (and I assume the Mazda6) only have 3 channel ABS they can't do it. The next generation will have it. I believe Ford has committed to have it on all vehicles by 2010.

Lincoln had stability control on the Lincoln LS way back in 1999. It was obviously not judged to be important enough to mandate the 4 channel ABS in the CD3 cars.

explorerx4

your focus has an epa city rating of 25 or 26 mpg. the math seems similar.

baggs32

Remember the Focus also had it for a few years as a very inexpensive option too. No one opted for it and dealers rarely ordered it for their stock so Ford discontinued it. I think it went away for MY2005 IIRC.

scape2

a non-scientific poll. But over the last few days I have noticed a few new Kia Optima's on the road. I also noticedd the ones I am seeing are v6 models that look loaded. Looks like the secrets out. Just out of curiosity I'm going to go test drive one this weekend and see how they feel/look.

thegraduate

No, I was talking about your Focus that got 22 MPG (which is below its EPA estimate too). Not the Fusion getting 22MPG. My point was both of your cars got modestly below EPA numbers. You are getting 15 MPG in your Fusion, which is supposed to get 17. Your Focus got 22 MPG, which is 2 MPG below its rating of 24 MPG (City). Looks pretty darn similar to me. Your driving route is the problem, not your car.

kyrpto

Some of you don't seem aware of the EPA's new ' 08 CAFE standards and estimates. They are significantly lower. Most folks we know with new vehicles from HD trucks and SUVs to family sedans do not get the EPA sticker estimates in real world.

I find the Consumer Reports numbers to be closer to mine but our Highlander Hybrid can be driven in such a way that we can get 26 -28 mpg. Car & Driver published a long term test of the Lexus 400h and the editor in AZ averaged 27mpg for several months while he had it. BTW, our Hh and the 400h have blazing acceleration - 0 to 60 in 6.8 seconds with fully charged traction batteries. The other SUVs that are this quick suck gas like crazy.

On ESC - NIHSTA is mandating it for all passenger vehicles sold in the US by 2010 or 2012. They, CR, and several insurance companies are convinced ESC will save more lives than any other safety feature.

backy

At least some Mazda6's can be had with stability control.

If Ford has stability control on all its vehicles by 2010, it will be one year ahead of the Federal mandate for stability control on all new passenger vehicles by September 2011.

captain2

What you cite is not the case on the 550, 650, 750, 335.
From what I understand - BMW did make some modifications to the 'i-drive' in an attempt to make it more user friendly - something it certainly wasn't in its first renditions. As far as SC setting go in the the 545. I could not get it to activate regardless of what the driving setting was, probably due to my own lack of nerve, skill, respect for traffic laws or possibly the fact that it is a friend's car. This is not the case in some of these more mundane cars I've driven so equipped but is the way it should be - SC settings should be at some level very close to what the car is capable of NOT what some computer programmer or lawyer thinks the driver is capable of.

akirby

That's why they advertised the 2010 date - they'll be voluntarily meeting the Federal guidelines a year or two early.

jeffyscott

Only the Mazdaspeed6 has stability control, it is not available in any other Mazda6.

captain2

If Ford has stability control on all its vehicles by 2010, it will be one year ahead of the Federal mandate for stability control on all new passenger vehicles by September 2011
a sad commentary of the state of things of at Ford, given that all the mfgrs. knew several years in advance of the upcoming 'mandate'. There is a reason, that the Sonata, for example, has standard SC since its introduction 2 years ago - Hyundai knew it was coming, further understood that things like this SELL, and had the money and the ability to integrate all the components into a working system (yaw sensors, multi channel brake systems, DBW throttle and tranny control and, of course, that silly computer program that tells everything what to do).
And this whole PC push, is largely a knee-jerk reaction to some poorly designed FORD SUVs on some crappy tires. Ford should not be lauded for being about the last to comply, they should have been in the forefront.

jeffyscott

That is the way to use the EPA mileage estimates...if you get less than the rated figure now, expect to get about the same amount less with your new car. Apparently some think that if the EPA sticker says 19 for their new car that this means they will get that, even though their old car has an EPA rating of 26 and they get 22 with it :confuse: .

I have seen this sort of comment before, where someone is complaining about the mileage in their new car. Then you ask what they drove before and what their mpg was and it turns out it was getting just as much below the EPA numbers as the new car.

When I turned over my old Windstar to my kid to drive the mpg dropped from the 19 I had typically been getting to 15 or less for him. This is because he drives 3 miles to school and 2 miles to work, while I drive 9.5 miles to work.

I noticed that it seems that the CR city test is actually much harder on 4 cylinders than V6s. For example the Fusion I4 gets 23 city from EPA, but only 15 from CR. The V6 Fusion gets EPA 20 and CR 14. So the I4 drops by 9 mpg and 39%, while the V6 drops by "only" 5 mpg and 25%.

baggs32

Ford should not be lauded for being about the last to comply, they should have been in the forefront.


The Explorer has had AdvanceTrak with RSC standard for 3 years now. RSC was at the forefront because no one else had that extra measure of protection. I think GM is the only other to have something similar now.

IIRC all of their SUVs and CUVs have it now. They just don't have it in their cars and that's not just them.

kdshapiro

"This is not the case in some of these more mundane cars I've driven so equipped but is the way it should be - SC settings should be at some level very close to what the car is capable of NOT what some computer programmer or lawyer thinks the driver is capable of."

Didn't you just hit the nail on the head? You bashed stability control technology for it's lousy implementation on a Hyundai. Maybe it's a great reason not to buy the Hyundai if it drives as you said due to lousy stability control. But other cars have it right, in any case it's coming your way like it or not. Lawyers and computer programmers will have a say how you drive your car.

As far as idrive, it is set it and forget it. BMW and some other manufacturers have done stability control right for years.

captain2

Lawyers and computer programmers will have a say how you drive your car.
and this is really where my problem is - those lawyers and computer programmers have no idea who I am and from a driving perspective what I'm capable or not capable of. I never said that SC wouldn't save a bunch of lives (particularily the single vehicle kind of accidents). The 'low' tolerance settings on many of these SC systems is much more common than you think, and not necessarily just based on that Sonata I 'tested'. Many Sonata owners here, I'm sure, would testify that they have been driving their cars for a year or two and have never experienced any SC intervention. In that particular car it is not that invasive, in BMWs (MBs and Porsches come to mind as well) case I guess we are going to agree that it is not invasive at all. Toyota/Lexus both seemingly take a more aggressive approach in their SC programming perhaps heeding their lawyers advice too much. There is a reason why a non SC AWD Fusion V6 will outhandle and be more fun to drive (despite having maybe half the engine) than a softly suspended FWD Camry XLE V6 equipped with SC - and it is not just because of the 'loose suspension'.

captain2

They just don't have it in their cars and that's not just them.
OK, true it is an extra cost option on I think all the cars in this group except for Hyundai where it is standard and that one laggard Ford where, of course it is not even available. Talk about being in the forefront? Maybe Ford should be a truck manufacturer and not a car manufacturer.
Whoops, hasn't this already happened?

backy

The mandate for standard ESC came out last month, so I'm not sure how Ford could have known a few years ago about this mandate. Why pick on Ford re ESC? Hyundai has standard ESC on the Sonata, but ESC is not even available on its mid-sized Elantra, and it's optional (and not available on all trims) on Kia's Optima. ESC is optional on the Camry, not available on I4 Accords, optional on the Altima, rare on GM mid-sizers, etc.

urnews

Maybe Ford should be a truck manufacturer and not a car manufacturer.
Whoops, hasn't this already happened?

I think you are right Captain2. That would seem to be the trend wouldn't it? Our local dealer, Sherwood Ford, Lincoln, Mercury of Salisbury, Md., has more Ford trucks on his lot than anything else.

There were hundreds to choose from but there were only eight Fusions when we bought ours. For the last six weeks he has only had two Fusions to choose from.

One of the sales managers told me he wished they had even more trucks to sell, the demand is that high. Of course, the F-150 is FoMoCo's bread and butter these days. Once upon a time that honor was held by the Taurus.

Sherwood is a very successful dealer and a very good one to deal with, too. I wouldn't go anywhere else for service.

captain2

of course they did - IHTSA makes annoucements like this after consulting with the major mfgrs. meaning what they (the IHTSA) would like to do vs what is possible for the mfgrs. to do. Do you really think that Ford, for example, accidentally, has announcements prepared for the following day outlining their plans for compliance? Would guess the same thing happens with changes in CAFE standards as well.
GM would logically figure to be slightly behind the technology curve as well (it all has something to do with money) - but their most current car in this class the Aura comes with SC (in XR trim) soon to be followed by the rebadged 08 Malibu. As I said in my previous post, SC is optional (or standard) in all the cars in this group except for the Fusion.

lilengineerboy

Only the Mazdaspeed6 has stability control, it is not available in any other Mazda6.

Wooohooo Justification at last. Honey, I need the 270 hp awd 93 octane turbo car because it has stability control... :P

akirby

It was also optional on the Focus way back in 2001 and nobody wanted it. I'm sure that factored into the decision of whether to offer it on the first gen Fusion. And they're selling all the Fusions they can make right now with minimal incentives so it's obviously not hurting sales.

captain2

yep, I believe that the F-150 #1 and the Silverado #2 each far outsell even the Camry/Accord - to the tune of 750,000 copies a year each. Supposedly even higher profit margins in trucks than there is in cars, and yet neither Ford or GM can make money overall - perhaps a testimony of how much money they must be losing trying to manufacture and sell cars!
Down here in Texas, a pickup truck or some sort of SUV easily make up 60%-70% of what you see on your way to work.

captain2

if Fusions were selling real well and they were 'selling all they can make' - there would be NO incentives. The reason why you might have an awfully long wait for those precious incentives on things like Camcords. And I would imagine the only thing that factored in any decision to put in a little more sophisticated braking system and some associated electronic crappola was MONEY...

captain2

Honey, I need the 270 hp awd 93 octane turbo car because it has stability control...
and maybe the last place where you would want it

mz6greyghost

a sad commentary of the state of things of at Ford, given that all the mfgrs. knew several years in advance of the upcoming 'mandate'...And this whole PC push, is largely a knee-jerk reaction to some poorly designed FORD SUVs on some crappy tires. Ford should not be lauded for being about the last to comply, they should have been in the forefront.

Ford Bashing once again, huh?

No wonder why Pat gets so annoyed, considering that "manufacturer issues" and "manufacturer vs. manufacturer" isn't to be discussed here.

On-topic:

But over the last few days I have noticed a few new Kia Optima's on the road. I also noticedd the ones I am seeing are v6 models that look loaded. Looks like the secrets out. Just out of curiosity I'm going to go test drive one this weekend and see how they feel/look.

I too have seen a lot of new Optimas on the road. My wife's looking into a new car this summer, and it's on her list, because she likes how it looks. It's growing on me as well...

urnews

Just vacuum cleaned our Fusion today. I was surprised at how cheap and flimsy the carpeting was. I wasn't expecting a wool carpet but this stuff is really cheesy. Bean counters at work?

How is the carpeting in other mid-sized sedans? It's not something that I ordinarily notice when new-car shopping since carpeting is standard in all. It really is noticeable in the Fusion when you break out the vacuum though.

lilengineerboy

Given that most of the carpeting has 1 or 2 floor mats over it, it seems like automakers in general have taken to minimizing the carpeting in their vehicles, especially at the commodity car price points. The last LS430 I rode in had beautiful carpeting and leather surfaces, while more mainstay CamCordSions aren't so fancy.

I have yet to replace the carpeting in a modern (post-1970s) vehicle due to wear. What did you have before the Fusion? Does the Fusion seem comparable to what is in the Focus?

urnews

What did you have before the Fusion? Does the Fusion seem comparable to what is in the Focus?

We traded a 2000 Mazda Miata (with 7,500 honest miles on it) in on the Fusion. The carpeting seemed OK. I honestly believe the carpeting in our 2000 Ford Focus station wagon is of slightly better (more durable) than what's on the Fusion. Maybe it's my imagination but what's in the Fusion seems flimsy enough to have come from Wal-Mart.

Guess I'm going to have to invest in some full-sized rubber mats, or carpeted ones, from Wal-Mart to protect the Fusion's flooring. It is noticeably thin.

Given what cars cost today, you would think that carpeting would matter, that it would be of descent quality, without having to move up to a Lexus or Caddy.

The carpeting is not something that the professional car reviewers usually mention. Indeed, I didn't even notice it in our Fusion until I applied the vacuum.

The best I ever had was in a 1957 Cadillac that I owned in 1964-66. That stuff was plush and durable. I sure do miss that car; have many fond memories of it.

captain2

despite joe131s protestions otherwise cars as well as many other things really don't cost more today than they did in '57. At a simple 6% rate of inflation, the $3500.00 (I'm guessing) that Cadillac costed is now the same as over $64000.00 today (6% compounded over 50 years). Think you could buy a nice Cadillac (or two) for 64 grand?
Have our wages kept up, closer than you would think since back then $10k was damn near doctor's wages, and 3 or 4k was a normal 'white collar' wage. Do most of us get raises and/or cost of living wage increases that cover those kind of increases, generally yes. Are things built more cheaply despite all of this - maybe so, the craftsmen has long since disappeared in this country and been replaced by accountants.

thegraduate

The carpeting of my 2006 Accord EX is much better feeling than that in my 1996 Accord LX. It isn't something you'd want in your bedroom, but it is fairly thick feeling.

elroy5

The carpeting of my 2006 Accord EX is much better feeling than that in my 1996 Accord LX.

That difference may be more about LX vs. EX, than 06 vs. 96. I know in 92 the materials used in the EX (seats, carpeting) were of better quality in the EX than the LX.

thegraduate

Seating, yes, there is a difference (a friend of mine has a 1994 EX Accord with gray cloth). Carpeting, I'm not so sure there's a difference.

akirby

They built in a $500 rebate to the pricing because many buyers still won't buy without some incentive. It's been there since day 1 even when inventories were low so there is no other explanation. IF they weren't selling well there would be at least $2K on the hood.

scape2

In my region there are incentives on Camry and Honda is offering "low APR" on all Accords and Civics..

thegraduate

Yep. My dad is looking to get his second Civic (he's in Oklahoma City now), and was told they have 2.9 APR right now (they moved there in February, and the neighbor is a Honda dealer!:)). Final-year Accords are going for great discounts in anticipation of the new for 2008 model, as well. Whatdya know, they DON'T cost $5000 more than the competition. :-)

imidazol97

>Final-year Accords are going for great discounts

I love that statement. I recall when the Honda folks would brag arrogantly how Honda NEVER had to use discounts and rebates, heaven forbid, to sell their product because they were so desirable...

louiswei

For some reason, the new Accord looks much better in a darker color...

goodegg

Guess I'm going to have to invest in some full-sized rubber mats, or carpeted ones, from Wal-Mart to protect the Fusion's flooring. It is noticeably thin.

Go to link title (weathertech's website)and search for custom cut floor liners for your car. They're awesome.

thenebean

from the front it looks like an altima, and from the back and side it looks like a hyundai sonata...

doesn't really look honda-ish anymore...honda always had a distinguishable (if bland) look...

-thene

lilengineerboy

I don't know, I think I am more partial to the silver WRX going the other way in the first picture.
Anyway, my next question is where are they? They have Ohio MFG plates, but I am thinking they are in California heading to a ski resort area. I haven't seen another state have the "inverted" rumble strip type thing on the center line like that.

urnews

Go to link title (weathertech's website)and search for custom cut floor liners for your car. They're awesome.

Wow! They sure are pricey. When you say they are "awesome" I assume you are speaking from experience? If so, how long have you had yours? Did you get the $99 version or the $149 one?

backy

Maybe some of you noticed that the Taurus and Sable are now IIHS "Top Safety Picks". Yes, they are classed as "large cars" by interior volume, but then so is the Sonata. I also noticed how many Honda and Toyota sedans are IIHS Top Safety Picks: zero. Since the Taurus (ok, Five Hundred for now) is available in my town for around $18k well equipped, an excellent price for a V6 sedan, I expect many buyers will cross-shop it with mid-sizers. If Ford doesn't offer ESC on the Fusion for 2008, maybe the Taurus will steal sales from the Fusion.

backy

I see a lot of resemblance to the Optima, except the taillights, which do look to me like (truncated) Sonata or Lexus lamps. Since Honda obviously did not set out to mimic a Kia, it just shows once again that there are only so many wants to bend sheet metal on a sedan.

jeffyscott

I'd have considered the 500/newTaurus, except for the lack of telescoping steering wheel. Not being a fan of the chrome grill on the Fusion, I doubt I will like the newTaurus.

Although...I happened to recently see a caravan of the new Taurus and TaurusX being tested...the Taurus grill was covered up but the TaurusX looked like they had a "black chrome" grill (unless that was just a disguise).

tallman1

I haven't seen another state have the "inverted" rumble strip type thing on the center line like that.

Washington state has those on the sides of many roads now.... separating the lane from the shoulder.

baggs32

I don't know, I think I am more partial to the silver WRX going the other way in the first picture.
Anyway, my next question is where are they? They have Ohio MFG plates, but I am thinking they are in California heading to a ski resort area. I haven't seen another state have the "inverted" rumble strip type thing on the center line like that.

I hope no one from Honda is monotoring this thread if all we notice in the pics of their new bread and butter model are the rumble strips on the road. :P