Midsize Sedans 2.0

jeffyscott

Maybe that's what they mean by "4-door coupe"...it's got 4 doors, but it is still difficult to get into the back seat .

alicebettyanna

This is a fun place to discuss cars.

In the end, we went with a 2010 Altima V6 3.5 with the sports, audio and premium package. It just fit us better and was more fun for us to drive. Plan on getting 10+ years and will be back in about 3, when my husband gets new car fever again.

I'm sure I'll be at the Detroit Auto Show in 2010' love to see the cars coming up.

I'll report on our Nissan. Happy 2010 to all!

m6user

I'll be interested to see how entry into the back seat of the new Sonata will be. It has a little of that "coupe" styling. Haven't really seen any negative comments about the back seat entry from the reviews I've read but then there is so much new to write about on the '11 Sonata the ease of entry into the back seat may just not have been written about.

I'll check it out when I go to the Chicago auto show in about 6 weeks.

m6user

Reply to self: Found a reference to the ease of entry question for the new Sonata in a review on cars.com as follows:

"The sleek new exterior design has consequences for backseat passenger space. While legroom is good — it's close to what you'll find in a Camry or Accord — there's not much extra headroom for taller adults, and those same people might find that they have to dip their head when exiting to avoid bumping it on the headliner."

colloquor

That's publisher or magazine speak for "it's kind of difficult to get out of." If you look at the rear door window of the CC and the 2011 Sonata, they look quite similar. Yes, I think a 4-door coupe is probably the best way to describe both. As I previously mentioned, the CC is a beautiful car, and from photos, the new Sonata looks very nice as well. But, one has to live with them too, and I'd rather have a 4-door sedan that's easy for adults to enter and exit. However, this paradigm is counter to most of the designers' desires these days.

tallman1

In the end, we went with a 2010 Altima V6 3.5 with the sports, audio and premium package.

Congrats!

m6user

I carry adults in my backseat but a few times a year so a 2-dr would almost suffice but I still like the shorter doors and convenience of a 4 dr. I like the design of the CC and new Sonata roofline. Gives them a sleek, fast and more streamlined look.

backy

I think Hyundai is going after a younger demographic with the 2011 Sonata, one in which either children or spry younger adults will be inhabiting the back seat. A demographic that will appreciate more swoopy styling than is typical on a mid-sized family car. That leaves the Azera and Genesis for older, er, more mature, adults.

m6user

Has anyone heard anything about the new Optima? Is it being radically redesigned like the Sonata? If so, any idea when we'll hear or see something?

backy

Spy photos are out.. looks a little like the Sonata in terms of roofline.

http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2009/08/spy-photos-2011-kia-optima-gets- -eye-catching-new-design.html

colloquor

At the rate Hyundai and Kia are launching new models, with all the high-tech amenities and improved powertrains, I firmly believe that Honda and Toyota are looking over their shoulders - if they weren't already.

Kia has had a pretty bad reputation in the USA, more so than Hyundai. Ironically, this is not the case in Europe where Kia is more accepted.

Both Hyundai and Kia are going to be a force to be reckoned with, and all those who've laughed at them in the recent past may have to reconsider their opinions. Their evolution into a quality product is really not that much different that the Japanese marques evolution through the '60s to the present. The South Koreans are just doing it in shorter time span.

tlong

1 - GM and Ford are not making profit so nothing is going anywhere

Revenue, not profit. Revenue pays salaries of engineers and designers located in multiple locations. Buying an vehicle made by a "domestic" OEM supports engineering and design employees.

Agreed. My original response was because there was a post about buying American because the "profit goes to the US". I was pointing out how simplistic and incorrect that argument is.

lilengineerboy

Agreed. My original response was because there was a post about buying American because the "profit goes to the US". I was pointing out how simplistic and incorrect that argument is.

I agree with your agreeing, especially since profits go to shareholders.

mz6greyghost

Congrats on your choice, and I wish you years of good luck with the Altima.

And yes, it IS a fun place to discuss cars, MOST of the time...

hackattack5

"profit goes to the US". I was pointing out how simplistic and incorrect that argument is"

(Looks like I see the word "PROFIT" in this report)

Ford reported net income of $997 million, or 29 cents per share, an improvement of $1.2 billion from the third quarter of 2008. Pre-tax operating profit totaled $1.1 billion, an improvement of $3.9 billion from a year ago. It is Ford’s first pre-tax operating profit since the first quarter of 2008
•Ford North America posted a pre-tax operating profit of $357 million, its first profitable quarter since the first quarter of 2005

dave8697

And then along came the robot Civic factory in Greensburg, Indiana. 900 robots and 900 humans was the initial full run rate plan. Then along came the recession and they had to let half the humans go home. Meanwhile, they are busy bodies back in Japan developing the robots that can eliminate the remaining humans from the nice new Civic factory. Yes, there will always be some humans needed. Yes, they don't ship all components from Japan. They have to get bulky frame and fender parts stamped here. Yes, they bring many suppliers over with them and source their hi value components with them. Yes, they grow soybean on the vacant factory land, and ship it in the return containers that bring the hi-value components in from Japan, like radios, navs, ecm's, etc. That way they don't need to buy soy sauce from the US.

dave8697

if it isn't greatly contributed to anti-American car and truck attitudes being fostered here? I actually don't like to see our economy in a shambles, in spite of how falsely foreign manufacturers can paint their cars as American. 10 Years from now when we are still shunning the cars built and designed by our neighbors, will our neighbors be immigrants from the Asian countries whose cars we prefer? Then it won't matter. The Americans who lost their jobs will all live in shelters for the homeless and taxes will be up 15% on all who still have a job. All this so that we can own the Asian car with the perceived betterness?

10% overall unemployment
16% including underemployment
36% unemployment among some minority groups

I recently heard on news that 48 consecutive months at adding 150,000 new jobs per month will reduce unemployment down to 9%.

jimbres

I'm a hard-headed capitalist - not a one-man employment agency. Before I spend my precious after-tax dollars on a new car, I look for something that pleases me at a price that I'm willing to pay. If GM or Ford wants my business, they should figure out what I like & how much I'm willing to pay for it. Then they should build it for me.

Don't give me a sob story about lost jobs. Focus on what I want, & you might just get some of my money. It's that simple.

I won't spend my money on something that doesn't make me happy just to help someone 4 states away keep his/her job. That's not how free markets work.

tlong

And then along came the robot Civic factory in Greensburg, Indiana. 900 robots and 900 humans was the initial full run rate plan. Then along came the recession and they had to let half the humans go home. Meanwhile, they are busy bodies back in Japan developing the robots that can eliminate the remaining humans from the nice new Civic factory. Yes, there will always be some humans needed. Yes, they don't ship all components from Japan. They have to get bulky frame and fender parts stamped here. Yes, they bring many suppliers over with them and source their hi value components with them. Yes, they grow soybean on the vacant factory land, and ship it in the return containers that bring the hi-value components in from Japan, like radios, navs, ecm's, etc. That way they don't need to buy soy sauce from the US.

So you are saying that even if this country can be more efficient, we should stay with the inefficiency because that will keep more jobs? :confuse:

That's just a great way for the US high labor costs to stay competitive in a world market, Yup, U.S. can stay #1 by trying to keep its factories inefficient. No quicker way to drive jobs overseas than that.

tlong

I actually don't like to see our economy in a shambles, in spite of how falsely foreign manufacturers can paint their cars as American.

So perhaps GM should hire 5 million employees. They can each work 5 minutes a week -- sweet the floor a few times, or take out the trash. Or put a bolt on a new Malibu. Pay each one $50K/year. That would reduce unemployment even further. And the UAW would add 5 million to the membership. The rest of us would pay bigger taxes (our "fair share") to keep bailing GM, and the Malibu becomes the midsized car that supports US jobs!

dodgeman07

I recently heard on news that 48 consecutive months at adding 150,000 new jobs per month will reduce unemployment down to 9%.

-----------------------------------

There's a lot of misinformation flying around. The current U.S. labor force is 150 million in round numbers. Adding or subtracting 1.5 million jobs would then raise or lower the unemployment rate 1%. If we add 150,000 jobs/months for 10 months the unemployment rate would drop to 9% (from it's currently reported 10%).

The problem is the "reported" number is about half of the actual number. Part-timers/temps/contract workers/day-laborers/etc are not being included (& haven't been included for nearly 30 years). Our real unemployment rate today is close to 20% and would be 17% under the reporting methods used in 1970's.

It's going to take 2-3 years to get back to a strong economy. It will happen but will take a good long while. In the mean-time hang in there and have a Merry Christmas!

backy

Did anyone except Alice wake up this morning to find a mid-sized sedan under the tree... maybe under the tree next to their driveway?

If not, but you could have... which mid-sized sedan would it be?

Since I just got a "new" mid-sized sedan (new for me, anyway) last month, no car under the tree here. And Santa didn't have the 2011 Sonata in his stock yet. But that new Legacy looks like a nice ride, especially today with a blizzard raging outside. Or the Fulan and Kizashi come in AWD also.

One thing for sure... those looking for something in this class have lots of great choices.

m6user

It seems odd to me that the new Sonata will be in dealerships within a month and there are no press "test drives" of the US version. Did a google search and the only one I could find was of the Korean issue with 167hp four cyl back in August. The new Sorento doesn't hit dealerships until Jan/Feb timeframe and their have been numerous on-the-road reviews of it. Wonder is Hyundai is just trying to make as big as spash as possible :confuse or something is wrong and they don't want the press to drive it right now. :confuse:

backy

The February auto mags are out in a few days... maybe we'll see some reviews then, timed to coincide with availability of the car--to help build demand. To make the big splash, as you say. Also, sometimes marketers intentionally withhold info on cars to build interest. Honda is really good at that... you don't see/hear anything about their new models until right before they are in the dealerships.

I doubt it's because something is "wrong" with the car. It's been available in the ROK for several months. It's also possible HMA is waiting for the U.S.-built/U.S. spec cars to be available for the U.S. press to review.

Anyway, if we were experts in automotive marketing, we'd have fat jobs with an automaker, right?

kdhspyder

NIce presentation. This is pretty accurate with a few minor modifications. A lot of the info can be found herein at Edmunds. The rest of the data is in financials and a few simple Googles.

From Toyota's financials.. a typical net profit is ~5%. However the Gross Margin runs about 15-20%. As you note one of the largest 'costs groups' is the expense to bring the vehicle from plant to buyer, it's about 20-25% of the MSRP.. This is almost all paid to US workers/companies.

kdhspyder

This is purely a UAW/CAW issue. When the foreign nameplates began making vehicles here in the 80s that whole argument about not employing US workers went out the window. That's when the 'Domestic Content' law was pushed through Congress by the UAW and its legislators. But the sister union the CAW said 'Hey what about us aren't we siblings?' So it became 'US and Canada' content.

Mexico of course is non-union in these plants so they might as well be in Peru or Thailand.

kdhspyder

I too like the designs that Korea is bringing out. They are more stylish IMO than most other vehicles. The sales figures need to be analyzed closely to see who's winning and who's not.

The big losers it seems are the Sebring and Accord.
The big winner(s) are the new Fusion and the Sonata. The latter is way up but it's gaining all the fleet sales that GM, Ford and Chrysler are walking away from.
The Camry and the Malibu are stable as is the Altima.

It appears to me that the Fusion's gains are the Accord's losses. Otherwise not much has changed.

backy

The latter is way up but it's gaining all the fleet sales that GM, Ford and Chrysler are walking away from.

At 20% of sales, no way Hyundai is picking up all the slack left from the other automakers in the fleet market. That's less than 100k total vehicles a year, just a fraction of the fleet market. When I go to a rental lot, I see about the same proportion of Sonatas and other Hyundais as I see makes like Nissan, Toyota, Chevy, and Ford. I see lots of Altimas, Camrys, Malibus, and Fusions in rental fleets, at least at airport rental lots. Some Sonatas and Optimas too, but no more than the others. About the only mid-sizer I don't see much of on rental lots is the Passat, and Accords are fairly rare also. I see fewer Mazda6's than I did before the redesign.

Anyway, that is probably short-lived (re Sonata sales to fleets), as HMA is trying to quickly get rid of the old-design 2010 Sonatas to make way for the 2011s. I doubt we'll see that many of the new cars going to fleets.

m6user

I've been reading that rental companies are trimming their fleets and running cars longer. I even read on here that somebody noticed the rental cars they have been renting lately have had higher miles than in the past from their experience. I rarely rent cars anymore since I stopped traveling for business so I have no personal knowledge.

I agree that Hyundai is not picking up all that has been dropped by the domestics by any means but that 20% you mention may be a lot bigger chunk of the rental fleets if they are reducing their total numbers.

lilengineerboy

So my mom bought a Ford Fusion Hybrid this past week. I was pretty luke warm at best on the hybrid given past experiences with a previous generation ('05-08?) Prius but apparently I was just off base. The car drives remarkably well. I also didn't think I would like the CVT (again after driving the Prius) and the Fusion hybrid seemed pretty seamless. It feels powerful, confident on the road, and the steering and handling feel competent.

It also didn't hurt that she got an absolutely loaded one with all the safety features. So far, the blind spot monitoring has been her favorite, but it also has this "cross traffic alert" that uses the park aid sensors to look for traffic in a parking lot - helpful when backing out between two SUVs. My dad's favorite thing is the trip summary when you turn the car off - it tells you how much fuel you used on that trip and your mpg.

The car has 2 little computer screens on either side of the speedometer that have vehicle info. I am curious how fast she will learn how to work all that stuff, or if she even feels a need to in the first place.

She is pretty excited, after ~20 years of driving mini-vans she has a sedan again. I am pleased too as since the van is pretty much worthless monetarily, they are hanging on to it so we have something to drive when in town (no more constantly switching car seats between parent's/in-laws cars...and that Prius).

kdhspyder

Not all the sales. GM and Ford and Chrysler haven't walked away from the fleet market entirely but where they have Hyundai has stepped in. It's a smart move. It covers the overhead at the plant and it may introduce the vehicle to a new group of buyers.

But overdoing it is risky. That remains to be seen.

backy

No, not all the fleet sales nor all the fleet sales the other automakers have passed on, which is what you asserted earlier..

I agree there are some positives to putting a car into fleets... exposure is one, and adding incremental profit is another. Also getting rid of an older model before the new one arrives, as I mentioned.

dave8697

So you are saying that even if this country can be more efficient, we should stay with the inefficiency because that will keep more jobs?

Not really. I'm just trying to clear up any misunderstanding that buying a Civic helps America.

If you are efficiently colonizing me, I still don't like it.

What I like most is a Honda in every other driveway and every 5th house to be occupied by unemployed people, don't you?

One day we will come to our senses. The nonsense that America should not build it's own cars is just that.

Just found out that a large pet dog has the same carbon footprint as a large SUV, and that if we in America all stopped driving for the next 20 years, the Earth's temperature would be kept from rising an additional by 1/17 th of one degree over those 20 years.

dave8697

They were taking into consideration the monthly influx into the employment market from HS grads, HS dropouts, college grads, college dropouts, those exiting the military, those still losing jobs, those being replaced by robots and computers, and immigration into the US. 150k new jobs does not reduce unemployment by 150k. It could be as little as one third of that.

m6user

People do retire and die so you would have to subtract those numbers. Just because a job is eliminated doesn't mean someone goes into unemployment. Elimination of a job can be not replacing someone who leaves the company, retires or dies. Those exiting the military aren't necessarily unemployed as many have jobs that they attained prior to discharge/resignation. It's a very fluid statitistic which is hard to pin down exactly so rough numbers would be about as close as you can get.

Back on subject. Wasn't the new Suzuki Kizashi supposed to be in dealers in December? Has anyone seen one up close and personal?

thegraduate

The nonsense that America should not build it's own cars is just that.

Luckily, our government is not (yet, anyway :sick: ) so dictatorial as to think this way.

kdhspyder

Sorry not what I asserted previously. I never asserted nor implied that the D3 had walked away from all fleet sales. What I said was that Hyundai had taken up the fleet sales that the D3 had walked away from.

The latter is way up but it's gaining all the fleet sales that GM, Ford and Chrysler are walking away from.

Obviously Hyundai is not gaining the fleet sales that the D3 are keeping.

backy

Yes, and that is what I said. Sorry you did not understand my post, in which I said (emphasis added for clarity):

No, not all the fleet sales nor all the fleet sales the other automakers have passed on, which is what you asserted earlier.

My point is that Hyundai could NOT be gaining all the fleet sales that GM, Ford, and Chrysler are walking away from, contrary to your statement. That's way too many cars for Hyundai to pick up the slack for, given Hyundai was already selling to fleets and their total fleet sales is about 20% now, and total annual US sales something under 500,000, so no way they could pick up that many more fleet sales. For example, if their total sales to fleets were 15% before, now 20%, that's less than 25,000 more sales to fleets. Add up the fleet sales GM, Ford, and Chrysler walked away from (probably moreso for GM and Ford than Chrysler). I'll bet it's a lot more than 25,000.

plekto

The nonsense that America should not build it's own cars is just that.

Luckily, our government is not (yet, anyway ) so dictatorial as to think this way.

****

Of course, the U.S. doesn't make its own TVs or Computers anymore and very few people seem to be concerned any more about it.

pat

I hope everyone is having a nice long holiday weekend and no one was adversely affected by the harsh weather. If Santa came to see you, hope he was good to you!

We're getting a bit too far afield of our topic, midsize sedans. Let's refocus on the vehicles themselves, okay? There are topics on the Auto News board that cover the subjects under recent discussion.

Thanks!

tlong

I'm just trying to clear up any misunderstanding that buying a Civic helps America.

I'm sure the Honda dealer, the mechanics, the advertising agency, the guy driving the Honda transport truck, the Honda assembly plant workers, the engine plant workers, the people at the electrical company supplying the plants, the trash men picking up trash from the plant, etc., etc,. etc., would be thrilled to not have Civics being sold. They don't need their jobs. Those jobs don't help America.

8babies1dog

I don't think Hyundai USA can possibly compete w/ as you call them (D-3) in
any type of sales. Hyundai USA with only 1 car plant in the US making only
Sonatas in the car class it would be a tough project. This is IMO. I'm not
very learned on the fleet sales. I think the Alabama plant is about at 100%
of production capability at this time.

8babies1dog

backy

Plus that same Alabama plant makes Santa Fes, with total capacity of 300k vehicles.

gtgtcobra

Hyundai does NOT have only 1 car plant in the USA. It also builds the Santa Fe and the Tuscon SUV's here in the USA.

mickeyrom

Have you seen the new Tucson? Verrrrrrrry impressive,and 32MPG with the 6 speed auto.

gtgtcobra

I didn't know that the 2010 Tuscon got that much MPG fuel economy. I used to own a 2001 Sants Fe 2.7L, 6 cylinder automatic AWD which only got 18 to 19 MPG overall fuel economy.
Does the 2010 Tuscon get 32 MPG because it has a 4 cylinder engine in it?

tenpin288

Hyundai does NOT have only 1 car plant in the USA. It also builds the Santa Fe and the Tuscon SUV's here in the USA.

Hyundai does have only one plant here for Hyundai models, http://www.hmmausa.com. Only the Santa Fe and Sonata are made here in the USA. The Tucson for the US market is made in Korea at this time. Hyundai does have a plant in Europe that will build the Tucson/ix35 there for the European market.

Kia is just bringing a new plant online now that will build the new 2011 Sorento and other models TBD. http://www.kmmgusa.com/index.aspx

backy

As of now, Hyundai does have only one car factory in the USA--in Alabama--and it makes Sonatas and Santa Fes. There is talk of adding the Elantra in the near future, but the Tucson is made in the ROK:

Assembled in South Korea, the Tucson benefits from Hyundai’s newest “fluidic sculpture” design themes.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/hyundai-tucson.html

Now, Kia has a new factory in Georgia, which started production of the new Sorrento a few weeks ago. It might make other Kias later.

EDIT: Ha ha, I see someone else had the same info--posted as I was typing!

dave8697

Honda Dealer...One Person
the mechanics.....who gets their Honda fixed? If they didn't have a Honda it would break less?

honda assy workers....you mean robots half the time
engine plant workers....5% of the car including materials. When will that become robotized? When 2-3% is worth going after...pretty soon.

Electric power plant employees....one person per state
trash men.....pollute our country for profits sent to Japan. This may be the Best part of Colonizing, aside from tax abatements followed by a recession to justify a much smaller training program.

advertising agency....at least somebody who went to college got a job, or does Japan own the advertising seller?

Madison County only lost 31,000 auto jobs. No pain from that.