Midsize Sedans 2.0

baggs32

Maybe you forgot Ford removed Taurus fleet completely, so let's think about this logically.

Good point, and I did forget that. However my point was that the only proof I've seen so far of Sonata fleet sales being down is a 5-month old news article stating that all of Hyundai fleet sales are down. If that's what we're going by here, and without real numbers yet, then according to the latest news Fusion fleet sales are down too.

While typing this I found the link I was referring to. Turns out the numbers I saw are from mid-2006. Sonata fleet sales were just over 50% and Fusion fleet sales were 18.8%. Anyone know if the new numbers are actually closer now?

explorerx4

this just struck a(c)cord with me. my neighbor across the street had an accord that was in 3 major accidents. the first was when it was a few months old. based on what my neighbor told me, the insurance company wanted to total it, but he would not let them, so it got fixed. anyways, he put it out on the corner and some guy bought it for his daughter. when he was putting the plates on it, he gave me a look while i was mowing my lawn, like 'i got a deal'.
i really wanted to say something, but i didn't.
my point is, a lot of buyers of used cars don't have a clue.

scape2

"Wrong on both counts. Fusion fleets are actually going up as we speak"

Please prove this. you can't because its not true. Ford does sell some Fusions to fleets but its much, much lower than at the levels of the Taurus. This is all over the net. And what about the Toyota fleet sales of the Camry??

elroy5

paying 6000 for a 12yr old car with 150,000 miles on it is just stupid.

Who said $6,000? Fact is, the car was well worth $5,000 and I would not have sold it for less. I still wonder if I made the right decision to sell it. The fact that I needed to have a truck, made selling the car a necessity.

scape2

"Ford needs to discount to sell the 6 (or the Fusion). In any case,"

Ever thought Ford/Hyundia just decided to sell a great car at a great value and maybe Honda/Toyota are taking you for a ride?

"Cheap now will almost always equal cheap later, and the reverse is also true" Cheap in what way? Or is this just because its a Ford product?

N

scape2

"From a dead stop, a manual 4-cyl Accord will hold its own against an auto V6 Fusion."

No, it won't.

scape2

"That is where you lose me. Honestly, I am trying to understand why you think resale value is so all important."

I agree. Honda folks love to tought resale value. Yet, they leave out the initial higher price paid, along with the higher interest over the lifetime of the loan..

Cars are not an investment either...

Another thing here. Resale on the internet is an average. Real world is where resales come in. I had a 2000 Accord LX and 3 dealerships wouldn't give me more than 10,000 in 2004 for it! Perception to the public is also key on resale value. It has been bashed into our heads that Honda/Toyota are so much more reliable and they are "worth it". In my experience they are not. The internet has all kinds of information about reliability data. Get out and take a look. You will be surprised. :surprise:

bhmr59

According to the 12/1/06 statement pasted in #831, Hyundai started curtailing fleet sales dramatically in 11/06. If they established a new policy in November, they would not keep issuing the same press release month after month. While such monthly press releases wouldn't be a "5 month old new article",they would certainly be "old news."

Hyundai added XM radio to Sonata's built in late 2006. They had a press release about that. While they advertise that XM is included, they don't issue press releases each month to announce that XM is included.

goodegg

Honda/Toyota are so much more reliable and they are "worth it". In my experience they are not

My experience is the total opposite. My 2 Fords have been very weak compared to the satisfaction my 3 Hondas and 2 Toyotas deliver. Ford's burned me twice. I doubt I'd ever buy one again. My 15 year old won't see one in the driveway either. Leaning towards an Elantra.

And I get "out on the internet". I don't need it to tell me to steer clear of Ford.

goodegg

My experience is the total opposite. My 2 Fords have been very weak compared to the satisfaction my 3 Hondas and 2 Toyotas deliver.

I feel the same. Ford needs to step it up to earn my business. The Fusion seems to be an OK car, but its too new on the scene for it to be judged in the esteemed light of an Accord (yea I'm Honda-biased but for a good reason). Lets see how it holds together with 90,000 miles on it. The Aura looks good too, but how do we know what it'll be like with 90,000 on it?

I'm pulling for GM tho with its new models - the Aura, the new Malibu, and the new CTS. C'mon GM.

zzzoom6

that's weird, I got a quote on my insurance for an accord that was $150 more every 6 months compared to a mazda 6...and a civic SI was like $300 more every 6 months! Car insurance is just strange. Like a zip code where you live can have a big impact on insurance even if you park your car in a locked garage, while work addresses aren't considered and cars there are out in the open. Ah well, what do you do?

wardco

The Honda is one of the most stolen cars in the USA. That's likely why the higher insurance rates.

motownusa

Dont you find it difficult driving a manual in stop and go driving. I personally hated it. Besides you can't chat on the cell phone and drive if you drive a stick :P

benderofbows

Me: "From a dead stop, a manual 4-cyl Accord will hold its own against an auto V6 Fusion."

Scape: "No, it won't."

Well, I've tried supporting my argument by stating that I have driven both cars and own one of them. However it seems we'll have to take another look at some numbers. Car and Driver clocked the 2007 Accord I4 manual as having a very respectable 7.5 second 0-60 time, slightly slower than the new Altima 4. I couldn't find much other data on 2006 and later (post engine power bump) Accord 4-cylinder manuals.

The V6 Fusion automatic has plenty of test results available, however the results are all over the place. You are right, Motor Trend did clock one at 7.2 seconds, however there are many other credible sources that weren't able to acheive that time. Please read the following excerpts:

Edmunds.com, Full Test of SEL V6- 0-60 mph 8.0 sec, Notes: "We achieved our best time doing a "street start" with the traction control turned off."

NewCar.com- “The 221-hp V6 engine provides enough power, although the Fusion will not likely be mistaken for a sports sedan. The Fusion can accelerate from 0 to 60 mph in about 8 seconds, a reasonable performance though not as quick as the V6 versions of the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.”

Autoweek- “In a straight line the Fusion turned in a respectable—if average—performance. Its 3.0-liter 221-hp V6 just edges the best our long-term Hyundai Sonata’s larger 3.3-liter V6 could deliver, both to 60 mph (7.5 seconds vs. 7.51) as well as through the quarter-mile (15.7 seconds at 91.2 mph vs. 15.76 at 89.4).”

7.2 seconds? 8.0 seconds? 7.5 seconds? Even if you take the fastest time for the Fusion, versus the only time I found for the Accord, that's only 0.3 seconds difference. Between a 2.4L four, and a 3.0L six that has an extra gear! The results indicate to me that it would be a well-matched street race. Oh wait, I already did that myself (versus its sister car), and won.

Seems to me like somebody just doesn't want to admit that a 4-cylinder Accord can keep up with his V6...

targettuning

Ever hear of "bluetooth"? anyhow driving and chating is illegal in a bunch of states including mine and doesn't need an official proclaimation, for me anyhow, to be avoided.

baggs32

According to the 12/1/06 statement pasted in #831, Hyundai started curtailing fleet sales dramatically in 11/06. If they established a new policy in November, they would not keep issuing the same press release month after month. While such monthly press releases wouldn't be a "5 month old new article",they would certainly be "old news."

I'm not looking for another press release. I'm looking for numbers!!!!!!!

A lot can change in 5 months which is why that press release is worthless. Hyundai also isn't going to release a statement to the press that they've increased fleet sales either.

I go along with them having lowered Sonata fleet sales but they were selling ove 50% of them to fleets as of July 2006. I doubt the big drop in Sonata sales is a result of them cutting fleet sales by the same amount. Let's be realistic here. :sick:

jeffyscott

if you found somebody to pay 5000 (or 6000 if you're saying kbb was 5k) for a 12 year old car, consider yourself lucky. you found a moron who would have overpaid for anything.

While I agree that it is nuts to pay $5000 for a 12 year old car with 150K miles, I don't think you are correct about the person being willing to overpay for anything. I imagine that there are a lot of people who believe that a 12 year old accord with 150K miles is more "reliable" than a 5 year old Taurus with 60K miles.

In fact, I bet in many people's view the age and mileage does not even enter into their evaluation of this...they would figure a 1992 Accord with 250,000 miles on it is more "reliable" than a brand new Fusion.

targettuning

Hate to jump into a series of posts arguing aceleration numbers because they are largely irrelevent due to a hundred factors e.g. driver...mechanical condition..reflexes (in a street race)..road surface condition...is it your car as opposed to a rental etc. Some of the few times I really CARE about having a fast car involve a quick pass on a two lane with oncoming traffic and the passee speeding up and I've passed "bingo". A quick entry onto an interstate with two Peterbuilts..one in each lane..bearing down on me @ about 75 mph. Those plus the occasional "pull away" from a tailgater.That said, I prefer a V-6 to a 4 and buy the larger V-6 if two of those are available. I am of the "better to have it and not need it" school of thought. Anyhow, what I wanted to say was Autoweek has the absolute slowest numbers I have ever seen for a V-6 Sonata both 0-60 and 1/4 mile

goodegg

The Honda is one of the most stolen cars in the USA. That's likely why the higher insurance rates.

That's silly. Ever think that the sheer number of Accords out there has anything to do with its target for thiefs?

My insurance agent says the Accord is one of the CHEAPER cars to insure.

jeffyscott

My insurance agent says the Accord is one of the CHEAPER cars to insure.

Maybe that's because they are getting all those stolen body parts cheap .

Seriously though, insurance costs vary. For me, my insurance agent has said for any car I have the liability will cost the same with my insurance company. He tells me for collision it varys a little based on the cost of body parts. I think he said generally import body parts would be more expensive. I think he may have also said that some cars have alternate body part suppliers, with lower prices.

Since the Accord and Mazda6 are built here they should be toward the cheaper end along with other models that are asembled in North America. Accord might be so common that there are alternate suppliers.

In the end, for me the make and model of the vehicle has little impact on determining my auto insurance rate. Apparently this is not the case for everyone, though.

BTW, Mada6 made #2 and Accord #6 on the cheap to insure list here at edmunds:

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/top10/110137/article.html

benderofbows

Oh I agree with you about there being a hundred factors which influence acceleration numbers. I only got started on the whole debate because someone made the blanket statement that Fusion V6 was "much faster" than competing 4-cylinders. That's simply not the case for Accord manual and Altima manual and CVT, they are right there with the Fusion V6. Car and Driver clocked a 2.5L manual Altima at 7.2 seconds, matching the best time I've seen for a Fusion (the Motor Trend test).

backy

I go along with them having lowered Sonata fleet sales but they were selling ove 50% of them to fleets as of July 2006. I doubt the big drop in Sonata sales is a result of them cutting fleet sales by the same amount.

Hmmm, interesting correlation. I think you may be on to something here!

I think there's a few factors behind the drop in Sonata sales:

* HMA's decision to reduce fleet sales.
* A big increase in Santa Fe sales over last year; Santa Fes are made in the same plant as Sonatas, so if they can sell a higher-priced Santa Fe vs. a Sonata, which would they choose?
* Reduction in Sonata incentives compared to last year.
* General slowness in the auto industry coupled with stronger competition this year vs. last year (e.g. new Camry, new Aura, big incentives on Accords and Mazda6's, improving reputation for Fulan), combined with no major changes to the Sonata since its introduction two years ago. It's no longer the "fresh-faced kid on the block."

lilengineerboy

Dont you find it difficult driving a manual in stop and go driving.

Wow, why do you live in a miserable place with stop and go traffic? Why don't you live closer to work?

I personally hated it. Besides you can't chat on the cell phone and drive if you drive a stick

Maybe if you didn't have a boring car and lots of "stop and go traffic" you would actually enjoy driving and not want to talk on the phone :P

baggs32

I only got started on the whole debate because someone made the blanket statement that Fusion V6 was "much faster" than competing 4-cylinders.

It wasn't a blanket statement originally. I was comparing an ATX to an ATX. You made it into an ATX vs MTX argument and you are right about that as I pointed out. However, your 0-60 times for the Accord 5A were just plain wrong and the Fusion V6 is a much better performer than the Accord I4 5A. Plus they are really, really close in price. .8 to 1 second difference is big no matter how you slice it.

Those of you who have bought an Accord I4 5M are getting quite a performance deal because it is nearly every bit as quick as a Fusion V6 for $1k or $2k less. But I don't imagine many of you do have an Accord with that drivetrain so my point still applies to the vast majority.

Oh I agree with you about there being a hundred factors which influence acceleration numbers.

A lot of people don't get that though. If the two weren't tested on the same track, on the same day, and with the same driver, then it's hard to believe any comparison of numbers.

pat

Here's the link: dzelinski, "Subaru Legacy/OutbackTransmission Problems" #45, 11 May 2007 7:25 am.

benderofbows

Agreed, on nearly all points. That Accord I4 5A time was probably fast by 0.2 seconds. A few things to consider, regarding the ATX to ATX argument: Altima 2.5L CVT is very nearly as quick as the fastest test of a Fusion V6 ATX. Also, I suspect the 2008 Accord (with the new A-VTEC engines and resulting power increases) will be able to match the Altima, closing the gap to the Fusion unless Ford has some new tricks. A-VTEC promises to increase economy as well, where the Accord already has a distinct advantage (I am seeing 28-29 city and 34-38 highway).

tallman1

Dont you find it difficult driving a manual in stop and go driving.

I find it quite easy to drive a stick in stop and go traffic. I actually prefer it to an automatic because I can anticipate and coast. And I've spent a lot of time in that kind of traffic. :sick:

baggs32

Accord (with the new A-VTEC engines and resulting power increases) will be able to match the Altima, closing the gap to the Fusion unless Ford has some new tricks.

Well, that brings us back to the whole origin of this and other conversations I'm trying to clear up here. The new PIP D30 engine for the Fusion and Escape will, if all the news on Ford forums are correct, have more horsepower and better fuel economy with no hit in price.

A CVT is a completely different animal but it is the closest thing to an ATX Nissan offers in the Altima right now so I'd say that's fair to compare too. 99% of Freestyle owners I've come across say it has plenty of power for them with the CVT (which is gone for the Taurus X and D35 motor BTW) and that's a heavy vehicle with a relatively weak engine. So something good has to be going on in a CVT. I've never driven a CVT equipped vehicle, so I can't attest to the magic they perform.

dudleyr

"Dont you find it difficult driving a manual in stop and go driving. I personally hated it. Besides you can't chat on the cell phone and drive if you drive a stick"

When I used to live in an area that had rush hour I still preferred a manual. Now the nearest town with any kind of traffic congestion is about 200 miles away. I go years at a time between waiting more than one cycle for a light. :P

As far as cell phones go the Accord is quiet enough that I can just put it on speaker.

Love the drivetrain in the I4 manual. Nice and quick, but still give Focus like fuel economy (or better). My lifetime mpg is 31.3 for my Accord, and 40 mpg is obtainable on the highway - 35 mpg under poor conditions.

Still, I was another that looked at the Fusion. It is a nice drive, but the dash and switch gear are below my 1990 Acura, seemed a little more cramped than the Accord, and mpg was not there. I also wish they made a wagon.

lilengineerboy

also wish they made a wagon.

Yeah that ruled out the Accord and others the last go around, but this time the car is for me so the needs are different.