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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    Since the Mazda 6 has been marketed from the beginning as a sporty alrernative to mainstream family sedans, I would think Mazda would have gone with the intake, even at the cost of some increase in engine noise - this target market anyway likes throaty engines.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "I guess the same way the other person can claim the Fusion gets lower mileage... wow, talk about some serious bias going on here... "

    This post makes no sense. If a Fusion is expected to hit EPA numebrs, why wouldn't a Camry?
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "This is the first time I have heard of the Accord's 4 cyl being called an engine that creates a racket when revved up. Are you sure you were in a real Accord (not the imaginary one of your dreams that has a 'rackety' engine)? "

    "Ever thought maybe it is loud? I owned an Accord in 2000 and it was not this "refined" sounding machine that some want others to believe. This car was loud at full throttle. I have driven both a 4cyl Fusion automatic and have also test drive an 06 Accord 4cyl Automatic. Its all in what you want to believe. Both of these vehicles exhibit engine noise when pushed."

    You were referring to a racket created by revving up the Accord. That is what I don't believe.

    I believe the Accord's 4 cyl engine is universally accepted to be one of the best 4 cyl gas engines out there, as well as an engine that likes to be revved up while sounding very smooth at high revs. In fact that has been a strong point of all Honda VTEC and iVTEC engines. Not noise.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "We're not talking about a lot - maybe 0.5-1.5 mpg but it's still an increase, not a decrease."

    Okay, so the expected increase is .5 to 1.5 and not the 2-3 mpg someone earlier stated. That makes it clearer.
  • thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    folks - there's no point in arguing about V6 engines - we all know that nissan's VQ series engines are the best V6 engines out there! ;)

    -thene <--nissan biased :blush:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    what you are leaving unsaid, (in typical scape fashion) is that under those same circumstances that you can coax 32 mpg out of your Fusion, a Camcordima is going to do a coupla mpg BETTER, cars you earlier claimed couldn't ever/never hit 30 mpg.
    How do I know this you ask? Owning a couple of of them helps but also because that is what the relative difference is in the EPA hwy ratings - UNLESS, of course, you really want to try to sell the rather preposterous proposition that the EPA itself is also somehow biased specifically against Ford products?
    Fact is that not only does the DT cost its owners some gas it also costs them a rather significant chunk of HP. The prices of progress, or should I say the lack of it!
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    folks - there's no point in arguing about V6 engines - we all know that nissan's VQ series engines are the best V6 engines out there!

    As long as you like big engines that require premium fuel :P
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    while you won't get a whole lot of argument out of me (I own an Altima 3.5 and previously a coupla Maximas). I am of the opinion, that the design is somehow getting a little long in tooth and the engine isn't currently as smooth and refined as the Toyota 2GR (and yes, I own one of these as well). May have something to do with the C and the i on the Toyota valvetrains and not on the Nissans, I'm not sure. The one thing the 2 year old 2GR doesn't have that the VQ does, however, is a long and proven history. The VQ will be at the top of any list of the best 6 cylinder engines ever built (along with the BMW straight 6s), but I do prefer my 2GR to my wife's VQ - the Toyota engine being smoother, more powerful and more economical - and I too will admit to being Nissan biased ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    big engines that require premium fuel
    THEY DON'T, my 240hp 03 Altima been running just fine on regular for about 75000 miles now - as in the Toyota engine, the owners manual simply recommends premium 'for maximum performance'.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    THEY DON'T, my 240hp 03 Altima been running just fine on regular for about 75000 miles now - as in the Toyota engine, the owners manual simply recommends premium 'for maximum performance'.

    So you bought a performance motor and use crummy gas? I think there is some lost logic here. Do you change your oil at the "recommended" intervals or do you wait 3 years between changes because it "runs fine?"

    If the manual says to use premium, for comparison purposes it uses premium.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    not nearly the point because the difference (4 or 5 hp) is minimal. Case in point - the Lexus ES350 rated on premium at 272 HP, the mechanically identical Camry rated at 268 on regular. I guess folks that pay the badge premium for that ES expect to pay the extra $.20 a gallon, while those that buy the Camry are more sensitive to things like that. Besides if anybody on this forum should understand what these new high tech engines do relative to changes in spark and valve timing relative to detonation, than you would also understand that it really doesn't make any difference except for those few HP.
    Would suggest to you that most Camry V6 drivers put regular in their cars simply because they can save a few bucks every fillup, don't hear or feel anything different with 'crummy' gas, and then by your assumptions of ignorance must wait until their oil pressure drops to 0 before they ever even open the hood again. :confuse: ">
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,944
    I have a 2 GR as well, absolutely nothing wrong with using regular, as was already stated, the manual suggests for improved performance premium may be used. I can't tell a bit of difference in the few tanks of premium I tried.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    but the larger market for midsize sedans isn't always interested in a throaty intake note. the enthusiasts are which is probably why mazdaspeed makes available a CAI that does not destroy the factory warranty. but Mazda does not want to sell the 6 to enthusiasts only...it is still a midsize sedan after all. most enthusiasts aren't too concerned if a 42" plasma will fit in the hatchback or even if their car has 4 doors. so if the 6 had a chance of growing market share from the 626, it still had to have some appeal to the larger market of those who were interested in a midsize sedan which probably meant making an attempt at keeping noise levels down (amongst other compromises that they made to make the ride more comfortable).

    and I'm sure mazda knew those who really were interested in modding their cars would and would be willing to pay extra for it which means more money for mazda by offering their own CAI. and there are some places where you may not want a CAI... for example very rainy areas that are flood prone. one other point... imagine mazda said to customers "we have a part that costs extra that will slow down your car but will make it a bit quieter at wide open throttle." that would be a hard sell imo. whereas it would be far more palatable if they were to say "we have a CAI which adds power and torque while giving it a more throaty intake note." which would you rather try to sell?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Would suggest to you that most Camry V6 drivers put regular in their cars simply because they can save a few bucks every fillup, don't hear or feel anything different with 'crummy' gas, and then by your assumptions of ignorance must wait until their oil pressure drops to 0 before they ever even open the hood again.

    I guess I lump that in the same category as those who buy the performance suspension and then replace the tires with either the cheapest thing available or a highway tire and wonder why their car doesn't handle as well as it used to.

    Like I said before, manufacturers make cars to meet the needs of the masses. People then optimize the car for uses as they see fit. I think that if I wasn't going to spring for premium, I would go for a car that didn't require (or "recommend") it. I'm glad your vehicle is working out well for you.
  • thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    nope - don't mind! and like captain said, its not required, its recommended. if you don't mind losing a little HP or fuel economy, you are more than welcome to use regular.

    though supposedly this new VQ with the VVTL technology (i think thats the acronym) that they are going to be using in the new Infiniti G37 is supposed to be more fuel efficient than its 3.5L bretheren.

    btw, i don't have a car with a VQ now - i have a 4cyl Nissan Sentra Spec-V (though i sold nissans for 2 years and had plenty of enjoyment behind the wheel of an altima/maxima/z) ;)

    and now, back to your regularly scheduled honda vs. ford thread!

    -thene :P
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    have a 4cyl Nissan Sentra Spec-V (though i sold nissans for 2 years and had plenty of enjoyment behind the wheel of an altima/maxima/z)

    I think I actually prefer the Spec-V to the Maxima. Well sized, good torque, and a real limited slip differential. Oh and a nice 6 speed transmission. I also liked the Altima SE-R of the last body style.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    Let me understand this. Take any engine, put $20K+ of development and parts into it and you can transform it into a monster that is not street legal.

    Where did it say it wasn't street legal? Isn't it possible to modify an engine to that extent and still drive it on the street? Some of the Calloway and Lingenfelter Vettes and the Hennessey Vipers come to mind.

    It is kind of impressive that the Duratec 30 was selected for that purpose.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    and now, back to your regularly scheduled honda vs. ford thread!

    Now that's funny :D .
  • thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    i like it too - i have a sunburst yellow one (2003) which had the aggressive looking front facia - not the big snaggle tooth that nissan thought was a good idea ;)

    it really is a fun car to drive, plus it gets good gas mileage!

    -thene :)
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    i like it too - i have a sunburst yellow one (2003) which had the aggressive looking front facia - not the big snaggle tooth that nissan thought was a good idea

    it really is a fun car to drive, plus it gets good gas mileage!


    The factory limited slip makes it a great car for autocross and HPDEs. My friends and I had a few earlier (classic?) SE-R/NX200 (SR20s) and they were very fun and easy to drive on the track. The limited slips really made a big difference coming out of the turns.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    In my state, you probably would not be able to take any engine, make any ol' change and have it pass inspection. Other states don't care.

    My definition of street legal refers to a 50 state inspection pass. And my point was anyway, give me $20K to modify an engine and I can turn any engine into a monster.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    and now, back to your regularly scheduled honda vs. ford thread!

    Now that's funny .

    +1
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    I agree, and I also think that this constant discussion of boosting performance on a midsize sedan is a bit boring. I didn't realize this was a performance car thread! Instead of buying a midsize, perhaps some of this folks should consider a different model of car. This last spec I consider, especially with those models covered under the header of this thread, is its 0 to 60 time.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    In order of importance
    1. Reputation for reliability
    2. Comfort
    3. Ergonomics/ease of operation
    4. Passing/merging power
    5. Handling
    6. MPG
    7. Smooth ride
    8. Looks/style
    9. Price
    10. Brand name
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    For my recent purchase, it was something like:

    1. Comfort
    2. Handling
    3. 4 cylinder w/5 speed automatic
    4. Looks/style
    5. Price

    The remaining items on your list either did not matter, I saw little difference among them, and/or felt any would be adequate.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    1 MPG
    2 Room/Comfort
    3 Safety
    4 Handling/Performance
    5 Reliability
    6 Price
    7 Interior Looks/Style
    8 Exterior Looks/Style
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Thanks dudleyr. :blush: I knew I was leaving something out. SAFETY
    Revised list:
    1. Reliability
    2. Safety
    3. Comfort
    4. Ergonomics
    5. Power
    6. Handling
    7. MPG
    8. Ride
    9. Looks (interior/exterior)
    10. Price
    Really liked the fact that I was going from a car with 1 airbag to a car with 8 airbags.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    In order of importance
    1. Reputation for reliability
    2. Comfort
    3. Ergonomics/ease of operation
    4. Passing/merging power
    5. Handling
    6. MPG
    7. Smooth ride
    8. Looks/style
    9. Price
    10. Brand name


    I think one and 10 are really the same.

    but mine would go
    1. brand name/reliability--what good is a car thats always in the shop?

    2. size/interior room-- have to think about the family

    3. price--not necessarily the cheapest, more of a most bang for the buck

    4. looks/style-- have to look good behind the wheel :shades:

    5. handling, power

    6. comfort-- I think all the current mid sizes are comfortable, not going to split hairs over which is the most

    7. standard feature vs. options--goes to the whole value thing

    8. MPG-- gas is getting expensive

    9. ergonimics--never really understood this one. may be important the first month or two, but after awhile you'll get comfortable with the button/knob setup, regardless of where they are.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    my top ten
    1. actual data relating to reliability
    2. handling - steering feel and confidence when cornering
    3. usefulness (hauling ability)
    4. value
    5. strong brakes
    6. availability and quality of manual transmission
    7. safety ratings
    8. visibility from drivers seat
    9. seat comfort
    10. looks/ uniqueness w/ appeal
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "No, becuase it is already relatively optimized in that application, it doesn't require premium fuel, it doesnt have VVT, etc. "

    This goes to show what little people really know about the Fusion. The 3.0 Duratec does have VVT in the Fusion/Milan. This just once again shows my point about the bias against Ford products. :mad:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "And in the minds of more than 800,000 Americans every year, who buy the Camcords."

    So I guess since McDonalds sells 1 million more burgers than Wendys.. McDonalds must have the best burger for the value? I bet not... ;)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    We can go round and round.. If Camry is expected to hit EPA numbers then why not Fusion??

    Get out on the net my friend. There are post in other forums with Camry V6 owners questioning their fuel mileage.. :surprise:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "as in the Toyota engine, the owners manual simply recommends premium 'for maximum performance'. "

    This is interesting. I wonder what the HP/torque loss or mileage loss is when regular is run in the Camry.. hmmm... I'm going to have to try to find the answer on this one. I wonder why the Toyota crowd never let this information be known? Premium runs at least .30 cents more a gallon.. quiet a big difference in fuel costs.. when comparing other sedands in this class.. :surprise:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    In order of importance
    1. Reputation for reliability
    2. Comfort
    3. Ergonomics/ease of operation
    4. Passing/merging power
    5. Handling
    6. MPG
    7. Smooth ride
    8. Looks/style
    9. Price
    10. Brand name

    I would put brand name up at 1 or 2 to begin with.. We are a society that thrives on brand names..
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    So I guess since McDonalds sells 1 million more burgers than Wendys..

    McDonalds sells more burgers because they are cheaper, and there is one on every corner. Camcords are not cheaper, and there are more Ford dealers than Honda/Toyota dealers in my area, so there must be another reason. Try again, Scape2.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Why do people strive to own BMW or Mercedes when these vehicles don't have that great of reliability? Name and status are important.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Style/Image are higher on some priority lists than others. I am much more concerned with what the car is made of (the sum of it's parts) than what it looks like. What you think looks stylish, others may think is ugly. Some people love Nissan's style, for instance. I think they make some of the wierdest looking cars on the planet. Style is subjective.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    This is interesting. I wonder what the HP/torque loss or mileage loss is when regular is run in the Camry..

    Not much, I bet. The way the premium vs regular thing was explained to me was:

    Only cars with higher compression ratios need premium. But, all cars engine's are computer controlled, and the sensors more or less know what type of fuel you're putting in. If the sensors in a high compression engine detect low octane fuel, the computer will just compensate for it by advancing the timing and tweaking a couple other things in the engine.

    as it was explained to me.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,944
    " wonder what the HP/torque loss or mileage loss is when regular is run in the Camry.. hmmm."

    None... the advertised power rating of 268 was with regular. Using 91 Octane yields 4 more HP.

    Here is a link...Toyota GR Engine

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    This just once again shows my point about the bias against Ford products.

    I'm sure there is a bias to ford products. Too many people have been burned by ford in the past. There is a reason their sales have declined as bad as they have.

    Take me for instance. I KNOW the fusion is a good, well built car. Its probably the best car ford has made in awhile. But, I've owned fords in the past, and they were nothing but problems. Never major things (I wasn't constantly swapping engines) but it was just so many little things. Like being pecked to death by a thousand chicks. So, about 15 years ago I started buying asian cars. And they never gave me 1/10 the hassles of the fords I owned.

    Is it fair to hold against ford problems I had with their products 15 years ago? Probably not. But as the song goes, once bitten twice shy.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I would put brand name up at 1 or 2 to begin with.. We are a society that thrives on brand names..

    Ok, so your list would have brand name at 1 or 2. Elroy placed it a 10. Where's the rest of your list? :)

    Frankly, I'm not driving a $22,000 Honda badge. I'm driving the best $22,000 vehicle for my needs.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Why do people strive to own BMW or Mercedes when these vehicles don't have that great of reliability?

    Because there are more aspects to a car than reliability. Last I checked, Ford Fusions and Honda Accords don't come with things like active-steering, active seat-bolsers, 14-way power seats, sport-handling packages, 18" wheels, Xenon headlights that swivel around turns, or 360 + horsepower engines, like the Mercedes' and BMWs of similar size. THAT'S part of the reason people strive for BMW and Merc. Is prestige part of the equation? Sure. But it isn't the end-all.

    Performance, uniqueness of style... you know, some of the reasons you bought YOUR car are probably included in the reason people buy Mercedes'.
  • jiaminjiamin Member Posts: 556
    That order is basically the same as mine.
    Reliability is always #1 to me. I don't need prestige if the car often fails this and that. To me, prestige will fade away if it does that.

    Therefore, according to statistics, in the years that I could see, no European cars for me, only Japanese for now...
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "This is interesting. I wonder what the HP/torque loss or mileage loss is when regular is run in the Camry.. hmmm... I'm going to have to try to find the answer on this one. I wonder why the Toyota crowd never let this information be known? Premium runs at least .30 cents more a gallon.. quiet a big difference in fuel costs.. when comparing other sedands in this class?\"

    You just don't get it, do you? The Camry gets 268HP with regular - the Lexus gets 272HP with premium. Any better now?
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "Get out on the net my friend. There are post in other forums with Camry V6 owners questioning their fuel mileage.."

    And no one's complaining anything about a Fusion on the net?
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "Why do people strive to own BMW or Mercedes when these vehicles don't have that great of reliability? Name and status are important"

    Have you ever driven a BMW? Talk about handling, ride etc in your fusion, but if someone drives probably the best handling car on the planet you think he/she does it fot status? I drive a 330i sport pkg - just for the pure fun - no status for a 3er here in NJ - there's one everywhere
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    "Get out on the net my friend. There are post in other forums with Camry V6 owners questioning their fuel mileage.."

    And no one's complaining anything about a Fusion on the net?


    Of course not! :P KIDDING of course.

    Both cars will have outliers in mileage, most are likely due to odd driving conditions (driving very short distances, or driving a lot of stop and go, or very high highway speeds, etc...).

    People complaining of fuel economy (regardless of the car) have to be taken with a grain of salt, because one person's idea of a "normal" drive is likely different from yours or mine.

    That being said, in identical, regimented, driving conditions, the Camry got higher numbers than the Fusion V6, Accord V6, Sonata V6, and most of the other competitors as well (if not all).
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "McDonalds sells more burgers because they are cheaper, and there is one on every corner. Camcords are not cheaper, and there are more Ford dealers than Honda/Toyota dealers in my area, so there must be another reason. Try again, Scape2"

    You took the words out of my mouth Elroy. I do have a few other examples that I could gove to Scape, but I guess it just doesn't matter to him. He feels the world is agianst Ford!!!!
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    Don't you know thegrad; the Fusion is the best car ever made, and no one in the world needs anything more or less than a Fusion. Guess every carmaker should stop making their cars and start making Fusions under license from Ford. Maybe then the US car market would look like the erstwhile East Germany with the Trabant (the only car that was available there for donkey's ears = the only car anyone would ever need!!!!!
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "This goes to show what little people really know about the Fusion. The 3.0 Duratec does have VVT in the Fusion/Milan. This just once again shows my point about the bias against Ford products"

    So even with VVT the DT gets the least HP and worst MPG in its class? Must be a wonder of an engine. No wonder people are biased.
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