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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    New spy shots (from April anyway) of the 2008 Mazda6.

    Notice that the next 6 is larger. Someone mentioned that it will get the 3.7L V6 but I've only heard of it getting the Mazdafied version of the 3.5L. The 2.5L I4 seems to be true too. I wonder if the 6 will get AWD as an option too?
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    The new Taurus is not behind schedule.

    They started hitting the lots last week. Ford said Spring of 2007 and it currently is Spring of 2007 by my calculations.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I think Hyundai's strategy is smart--supposedly shipping lots 08 4cl Sonata's with premium trim.

    This is what Honda has been doing for years, hence the Accord EX-L (and available with a manual transmission to boot!!), and the Fusion is available with a 4cyl and the SEL trim level.
    I wonder when the 4 cylinder from the Mazda6 will hit the Fusion.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Also I just read in the July MT that the 3.5L is expected, and the new Mazda6 is due out this fall. :) There was a spy photo of it also that gives a pretty good front and side view, and shows the streamlined greenhouse as has been reported earlier.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    You could also buy an Accent and put a down payment on a vacation home.

    Most people don't budget $30K for a car, spend $20K and then take $10K and just spend it. While I'm glad you like the Mazda, it would not be my choice. I would gladly spend more to have the car I want and feel I got more in the process.


    That's the thing though...I got exactly what I wanted for a lot less money than I originally budgeted for. I budgeted between 20 and 25k for my purchase and I knew that I wanted something pretty fun to drive, something that had a comfortable back seat, and preferrably had a good deal of hauling capability. After my test drives, I thought the Accord, Legacy GT, and Mazda6 would meet my needs, so the shopping began. Once I saw what I could get a Mazda6 for, I jumped at the chance. It's been a great car that has exceeded my expectations. I'm sure I would have been happy with the other choices also, but looking back, I'm sure I would make the same choice today as I did over a year ago.

    And why the h*** would I want to buy an Accent? Just cuz it's cheap? When I buy something, I want something that I actually want. Not something I buy and regret later and end up spending more for what I really wanted... I still had criteria that I was going to use so I made sure I got what I wanted; something reliable, fun, practical, and comfortable. And I ended up with something that looked good too!

    I'm just saying that saving on up-front costs was more than just a number; it was money that could be used to get a great tv, a good camera, a better shifter, a nicer looking car, and a great storage system for the hatchback. These were things that I was going to buy anyway, but knowing that I got all these things sooner while still staying under budget is a huge bonus.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    Sorry to hear that you have to wait so long for your car... I know I'd be getting a bit anxious, especially every time I saw a 6 drive by on the road! I'm also a bit surprised that there aren't more of those around, particularly with gas prices being what they are. I drove the four cylinder manual around and I almost got that instead of the v-6 I got. It definately has a bit less understeer going into a corner so it's very fun to drive. Anyways, hope you get your car sooner rather than later... and if you have any ?s about your car, let me know.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    And why the h*** would I want to buy an Accent? Just cuz it's cheap? When I buy something, I want something that I actually want.

    I think his point was that you could put your savings on your car (the difference of the money budgeted vs the amount spent) in a savings or investment account or similar, not that you should have gotten a less expensive vehicle. He was saying the amount you had left over "budgeted" was about the cost of a Accent.
  • dsiriasdsirias Member Posts: 34
    Yup, it's crazy Mazda not having ample sixes configured with manual tranny 4cl's with the higher trims. It's what the market is demanding right now it seems.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the 3.5 in the 500 was originally promised as a 2007 model to be introduced in the fall of 2006. This set of promises pretty much from day one - perhaps an apology for putting the 200 hp version DT in a car that big in the first place and certainly that car's 'fatal' flaw). Never did make it. In the meanwhile, lets try giving it a new name and then even miss that date by a little better than a month (originally promised for last April), and I'm still not sure there are any out there you or I can actually drive - or more to the point put in your driveway. Pricing is, however out and I'm sure Ford would be very happy to take whatever deposit money you wish to leave behind for the next product that is too little too late.
    Misinformation?
    Ford needs to get some communication going between those bean counters controlling things and those salespeople that promise things - a problem in Dearborn for several years now.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    That was a delay in development of the motor. Ford admittedly delayed it so they could make it more flexible for future applications. The Five Hundred wasn't the only model to suffer from that delay. The Fusion may actually even be suffering from it to an extent today and for a couple of years to come because production capacity is increasing slowly. If they had started building that engine two years ago maybe the Fusion would have it by now.

    The Duratec30 in the Five Hundred and Freestyle are low in the HP range but do perform rather well due to their CVT transmissions. From a marketing standpoint though, you are right, it was a "fatal" flaw. ;)
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    The 3.0L DuraTec V6 was a Porsche design (yes, that's correct), not Ford. Porsche sold the design, including all engineering drawings, etc., to Ford.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Edmunds story.

    Now this I like! I'd much rather pay a small premium for a diesel engine than pay a HUGE premium for a hybrid that I know I'll never make the cost up for. At least with the diesel I know I'll make the extra cost up relatively quickly and not have to deal with the hybrid quirks.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Now this I like! I'd much rather pay a small premium for a diesel engine than pay a HUGE premium for a hybrid that I know I'll never make the cost up for. At least with the diesel I know I'll make the extra cost up relatively quickly and not have to deal with the hybrid quirks.

    I concur and other automakers are following suit - I believe Nissan is looking at a diesel as well. I wonder if GM still has any relationship with Isuzu (Chevette/Luv diesels back in the day were Isuzu designs).
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I never saw April 07 as a target date. In January they said "by summer" and last time I checked Summer is still 17 days away.

    And I don't think the 3.5 was ever promised as a 2007 model. Please provide a link.

    As baggs32 said the 3.5 was supposed to be ready for the Five Hundred debut but it was delayed. However I don't think that it was ever promised for 2007.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I wonder if GM still has any relationship with Isuzu (Chevette/Luv diesels back in the day were Isuzu designs).


    I believe there is still an Isuzu branded copy of the Trailblazer and Colorado so I'd guess yes. However I don't see GM putting a diesel in the Malibu or any other car they make in this class.

    IIRC the Mazda6 and Ford Modeo use a Ford or Mazda diesel in Europe so who knows there.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    this is suprising given that Porsche would have very little use for a 60d V6 in any of their products for the last 40 or 50 years, those engines being the boxer opposed 6s etc. Can't imagine that Porsche would have any reason to design something so rough and unrefined - maybe they gave up and found a willing 'sucker' in Dearborn, or maybe that Ford made some of their patented cost cutting 'improvements'. A cause for celebration in Fordland, though, now all these DT owners can claim an engine 'designed by Porsche' even it if doesn't sound or feel like one.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    my source for this came from a Ford sales manager back in spring 2005, after I test drove the 500 - hated the drivetrain (naturally), and told him so. Again, what sales people (or public relations folks) will tell you is often what they think you want to hear and not necessarily related to Ford's actual abilities to produce sufficient quantities to make promises come true. If it was, indeed, originally scheduled for the 500 debut back in 04/05, than I guess it is really about 3 years late, because you still can't get it in the thinly disguised Taurus. It will be interesting to see if the same sort of thing doesn't happen to the 'reengineered' 240hp 3.0 that I guess is 'scheduled' for debut in a 2010(?) Fusion.
    By then, it will be 10 years behind the Nissan VQ, 7 or 8 behind the Honda V6, and 5 behind the Toyota 2GR/Hyundai 3.3 and likely still not as good as any of them are today. Not to mention a solid 25 or 30hp (or more) - too little too late!
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    I concur and other automakers are following suit - I believe Nissan is looking at a diesel as well

    in 2010 nissan will be making a maxima diesel available for sale in NA. But the other big advantage to the diesel is its longevity. you can put 300-400-500 thousand miles or more on one. Just drain the water separator and fuel filter every so often, and replace the fuel filter every 10k or so and it will run forever.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I guess you'll believe anything if it backs up your hatred of Ford.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    But the other big advantage to the diesel is its longevity. you can put 300-400-500 thousand miles or more on one.

    Yea but the engine, if properly maintained, isn't the thing that's gonna break first. More like transmissions, pumps, seals, timing chains, brakes etc.

    The seats, carpeting, accessories etc. all get ancient and crusty - who wants to be surrounded by that for many years? Not me. Kinda depressing.

    I like the new car thing.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    I guess you'll believe anything if it backs up your hatred of Ford.

    Ford has earned that emotion.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The seats, carpeting, accessories etc. all get ancient and crusty - who wants to be surrounded by that for many years? Not me. Kinda depressing.

    I like the new car thing.


    Wow, I want your salary :)
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    The 924, 944, and 928 did not use boxer engines. Of course, some may argue these are not "real Porsches," but you should drive a V8-powered 928 before that statement is made.

    However, you are probably correct in Ford's applied value-engineering. It may have been something totally different in the hands of Porsche. It is a rough-sounding engine, but once you look at the block, and underside design, of the engine, it's apparent the design didn't originate in Dearborn. The bottom end - externally - looks very European.

    Here's a copy-and-paste from WikiPedia on the DuraTec engine:

    "The 2.5 L and 3.0 L V6 Duratecs are evolutions of the same design, first used in the 1994 Ford Mondeo. It is a modern aluminum DOHC V6 with a 60° bank angle. The primary engineering input came from Porsche, who were developing a similar V6 before selling the engineering to Ford, and Cosworth, who helped with cylinder head manufacturing.

    The Jaguar AJ-V6 engine is similar but adds variable valve timing. Mazda's AJ version also has this feature."

    Porsche and Cosworth (Mike Costin/Keith Duckworth) - not a bad lineage, even though the execution may not be to one's liking.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "You took the words out of my mouth Elroy. I do have a few other examples that I could gove to Scape, but I guess it just doesn't matter to him. He feels the world is agianst Ford!!!! "

    And I guess you haven't been reading the posts in this forum??
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Don't you know thegrad; the Fusion is the best car ever made, and no one in the world needs anything more or less than a Fusion. Guess every carmaker should stop making their cars and start making Fusions under license from Ford. Maybe then the US car market would look like the erstwhile East Germany with the Trabant (the only car that was available there for donkey's ears = the only car anyone would ever need!!!!! "

    I wonder why this post was not removed?? :confuse:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Adjustments will no doubt have to be made by the workers when switching from a Mustang to a 6. Can they do it without too many problems, is the question. "

    Once again here we go.. if it were a Honda or Toyota plant, no questions asked they would get it righ the first time right?? ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Once again here we go.. if it were a Honda or Toyota plant, no questions asked they would get it righ the first time right??

    Why the chip on your shoulder? He said nothing of the sort. It seems like you are resentful of having a Ford by making comments like that.

    Why do it?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and that 'hatred' might be a little strong. I have 2 big problems with Ford - 1) the historical fact that they have no ability to make a good smaller engine and 2) their current policies literally paying quite a number (thousands and thousands) of their employees not to work, the economic impact of which is, I guess, yet to be determined although I feel confident in saying that the upper midwestern states are generally hurting right now. What hurts those folks in Michigan, whether it be declining tax bases, swelling unemployment/welfare roles etc etc. MUST eventually hurt the rest of us as well.
    Their cars are, however, improving - finally - albeit with some rather ancient technologies. It is a fact that as go the (what used to be) Big 3, so goes the country. It is better for all of us that Ford, if it can continue to mfgr. in this country, if it sells a bunch of whatever they attempt to sell and if it makes a good solid profit doing it, does well. A helluva lot of 'ifs'. Wish them luck actually, they will need it, because none of these things are happening now or are they likely to happen in the forseeable future. In which case, this great country of ours will be facing the biggest business failure in history.
    to get back on this thread though, I'd hate to see truly good 'niche' cars like the Mazda 3/6s (blown 4 bangers notwithstanding), go down with the ship. My prediction - by 2010 or 12 Mazda will be sold off in a last ditch effort by its parent company to stay afloat and a few years later will become again the innovative and independent company (Toyo Koygo(?)) they once were.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    the historical fact that they (Ford) have no ability to make a good smaller engine...

    Depends on your definition of "good" I guess. The 2.5L in the Contour SVT, the 170hp 4-cyl in the Focus SVT, and the 3.4L from the last SHO Taurus come to mind as "better than average" engines (for their time).
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    " I know a few people in this forum who would argue that the Accord and Camry float by on name alone"

    That'd be me your waving the wacking stick at AGAIN. I never said this you did. I simply state the Accord/Camry have a whole lot riding on a PAST reputation. Reputations fade. I am just one consumer who saw past all the CR.. and went back to spending less on vehicles, saving thousands of dollars in both interest and initial cost. Got rid of my Accord and never looked back.. ;)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "I doubt it too. Nameplate may get someone into the dealership for a test drive, but I doubt many people will spend 20-30k just bassed on name."

    Wrong, I have a friend who actually manages a Honda dealership. His sales people alway use the Honda reliability card. Bashing other makes/models.. using the scare tactics.. It was used on me when I bought my Accord in 2000 and I FELL for it... Not again, never.. Once bitten, twice shy.. :shades:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Why do you say this? Backy is someone who didn't get a Honda and bought a Hyundai (IIRC) because it offered a better value to him. Others buying Mazda 6s for a discount price are getting more value for their money, and not buying a shining H or T on the hood. It's not just you. Some see the Accord and Camry as appliances that are overpriced. Fair enough. Perception is an individual thing.

    The thing is, its not that you "saw past the CR." You didn't like the car. Saying you don't like the car is perfectly valid. I didn't pick up a Consumer Reports before getting my Honda, so that alone makes "seeing past it" quite difficult. I DROVE the car, and compared it with other cars I DROVE. You can't make a judgement from words and pictures, you have to feel it.

    Those that buy it (as has been said before) likely don't spend $20,000 on a car that someone else likes that they don't care for. They had to like it too, unless they've been labotomized.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    This is a joke. Do you even know how many people Ford employs in the U.S. compared to Toyota, nonetheless Honda?? Looks like Toyota/Honda PR compaign has worked on you@! Bet you didn't know Toyota counts its dealership personel and other infrastructe! Surprise.. :surprise: And you are wrong again with saying many parts of the Mustang are made in Mexico. Get your facts straight and stop spreading rumors.. This is the reason why I get so ticked off in this forum :mad:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    It was used on me when I bought my Accord in 2000 and I FELL for it... Not again, never.. Once bitten, twice shy..

    Someone told you the car was reliable, even though the engine was loud and not refined to you you still bought it? Why buy something on reliability alone?

    I just can't fathom spending $5,000 or more without trying out what I'm buying first (be it a TV, boat, car, or anything).
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    What does this have to do with midsize sedans? This is the reason I get ticked off... :sick: Wouldn't this go better in the "media" forum?
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "but the fact is that they are likely doing what they have to - to survive, although you have to wonder how those 'Japanese' cos., for example, can make a fortune building what they do here."

    I can explain this to you.. TAX BREAKS.. I have personally been to one of these transplants you love... Hate to burst your bubble. But here goes. Americans ASSEMBLE the cars only. Most of the high paying, skilled work force is Japanese. Most of the tooling is Japanese, all of the replacement parts for the tooling.. Japanese. Should I go on?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Americans ASSEMBLE the cars only

    And pay taxes on what they earn. Once again, this has nothing to do with comparing sedans' characteristics, does it? (I'm not just directing this at scape)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "I think there are a lot of things that Ford announces plans to do and then runs out of money (and time) before they can do it. I would guess the 08 6 will still be plagued by the existing 3.0 DT and wait until Ford has a chance to 'improve' it circa 09/10. I agree - wait and see."

    Why are you so down on Ford? Grad, Accordman, and you are always bashing Ford. You post that Ford "runs out of money". You are so out of the loop its insane!! Ford only lost money in its North American operation. Ford is doing fine in Europe and Asia. If anything, Ford may pull out of NA all together. Ford will survive as much as you don't want them too, obviously by all your bashing.. :shades:
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Porsche and Cosworth (Mike Costin/Keith Duckworth) - not a bad lineage,

    What difference does it make who designed the Fusion engine? Does it make it run smoother, quieter, more fuel efficient, or more powerful? Nope.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "The new Taurus is not behind schedule. Where do you guys get all this misinformation?"

    You beat me to it! this room is full of Ford bashing and misinformation about Ford. When I correct, I get slammed!.

    Taurus is not behind schedule. As a matter of fact, Ford is ramping up 3.5 engine capacity as we speak. The Taurus/Sable are just the first to get the new 3.5. Looks like the Fusion/Milan may get it in 2008/09 time frame. Just in time for a model redo..
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Get your facts straight and stop spreading rumors.. This is the reason why I get so ticked off in this forum

    Dude, chill...

    Why get ticked off by such a thing? If some posters are posting incorrect information then it's up to every single one of us to make that correction. That's that, nothing more to it. People make mistakes, some are intentional but MOST ARE UNINTENTIONAL. Is that so hard to understand?

    People who don't like Ford doesn't mean they are out to challenge you or make you mad. They just have a DIFFERENT OPINION, that all. Last I checked, this is still a free country right?

    To make this post not totally irrelevant...

    I made this statement before and here I'll say it again:

    If one can't see the reason to pay the premium for Accord/Camry/Altima then one shouldn't. By all means go get the less expensive midsizer like Fusion and Sonata. Since in this case he/she would just be paying more for absolutely nothing. However, for those who can justify why the premium is worth it (like me) then there is also nothing wrong to opt for the more expensive camcords. At the end of the day...

    to each of his/her own.

    ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    THANK YOU for that very clear post. It drives the point home to EVERYONE.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "I wonder when the 4 cylinder from the Mazda6 will hit the Fusion."

    It would bode well for Ford to put the 2.5 in the Fusion/Milan and have at least 175HP mated to a 6speed auto/manual box. I don't see this happening, if at all until 09 model upgrade.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "the 3.5 in the 500 was originally promised as a 2007 model to be introduced in the fall of 2006. This set of promises pretty much from day one - perhaps an apology for putting the 200 hp version DT in a car that big in the first place and certainly that car's 'fatal' flaw)."

    Why was this a "fatal flaw"??? :confuse: Because once again on paper the 500/Montego didn't do 0-60 in 5.2 seconds?? The DT moved the 500/Montego just fine. It is a relaible and trustworthy engine. The drive train on the 500/Montego is quite and sure. It is obvious to me you have never driven one. Ever thought there is more to a car other than 0-60 numbers??
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Why was this a "fatal flaw"??? Because once again on paper the 500/Montego didn't do 0-60 in 5.2 seconds?? The DT moved the 500/Montego just fine. It is a relaible and trustworthy engine. The drive train on the 500/Montego is quite and sure.

    Probably because it is the first detriment mentioned in most tests of that car. It was referred to as loud, and underpowered for the weight it was pulling. What do you mean it was quite and sure? I don't get it...

    And, it isn't a midsize sedan.

    **************
    Fortunately, the Five Hundred is one tasty box of sorry-about-that candy. Our example is a six-speed front-drive version (a CVT is also available, as is all-wheel drive), powered by the only engine choice at the moment, a much-modified 3.0-liter Duratec V-6. At a modest 203 horses, the power deficit is a bit much even for the close-ratio automatic to offset (wriggling through the cut-and-thrust of modern urban traffic produces an auditory spectacle of roaring downshifts).
    ****************
    Highs: Classy looks outside and in, huge interior space, whopper trunk, Vista Cruiser view all around.

    Lows: Underachiever V-6, six-speed auto too reluctant to downshift, front buckets are back killers.
    *****************

    These are from two different sources.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    well the 2.5 Contour engine a forbearer to the 3.0 DT. The SHO engine, of course, a mean true performance engine in its time - made by Yamaha - a relationship that still continues to this day in Volvos. The 2 liter SVT engine - around only 2 or 3 years, only generated that 170hp at outrageous revs, but at least had some potential while it lasted.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Oh yeah, it slipped my mind that the 3.4 was a Yamaha... Sorry. :blush:
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    The Jag version is also high compression, and, has a triple level induction system. In the S Type the 3.0 delivers 236 HP. In the X Type, with its more restrictive exhaust system, the 3.0 makes 227 HP. HP and torque are very comparable to the NA 3.0 used by BMW in the current 328i.

    REgards:
    Oldengineer
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "years to come because production capacity is increasing slowly. " Wrong.. Hermi plant is at capacity..

    you make it sound like "fatal flaw" means the car won't move! Or does 0-60 in 15 seconds.. when in all actuality 0-60 in the 500 with the DT 3.0 is from 7.3 - 7.5 depending on what review you want to believe. Please, stop spreading this misinformation.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    " A cause for celebration in Fordland, though, now all these DT owners can claim an engine 'designed by Porsche' even it if doesn't sound or feel like one. "



    This is your opinion.. The DT 3.0 spins up nicely and is just as quiet as your Toyota or Honda engine in normal driving conditions. This was proven way, back when someone posted the DB noise levels. And, before you jump.. Yes, the DT 3.0 is a bit more noisy than both the Honda and Toyota at FULL Throttle, once again.. FULL THROTTLE. I highly doubt most people drive around at full throttle.. :shades:
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